School Contracts - NSW?

Over the past few weeks, my kids school has issued contracts that they'd like the parents to sign agreeing we raise our kids in a particular way, and to understand that if they don't behave in a way acceptable, that there are the normal consequences.

Whilst in some way I can understand their reasoning (as there are some right little shits there), I don't believe that signing a piece of paper is going to fix whatever problem they are perceiving. It seems a little draconian, and little bit big brother to me.

At the moment I haven't signed, and am in the process of writing a letter to the school outlining my issues, and stating that we raise our kids with acceptable principles, and so long as they don't tell me how to parent, I won't tell them how to teach - within reason.

So.....has anyone else had such a request come from their school this year? Is anyone aware of any NSW policies that have passed requiring such "contracts"??

[ Edited on 29-3-2006 by squizy ]

I don't have kids, but that is quite amazing. It must have come to a point where the majority of teachers were asking for it. I do believe that bad parenting would not be balanced by good teaching. However bad teaching could be balanced with good parenting.

Maybe it is a workplace relations issue?

i think if my kids brought something home like that (yr8 and yr11 and 2 diff high schools) i would file it under g for garbage

I help in a high school and the behaviour of today's kids is outrageous.

Bring back the cane and hit the little bastards until they get the message.

I'm tired of being completely powerless to anything effective to and with a kid who tells me to get F^(*%d.

What I would like to do it to punch the little foul mouthed s%^t out, but I dare not do more than report him to a stupid education system that is little better than a glorified child minding institution.

I like my work, but it is so frustrating at times. This contract business is probably the last gasp of a politically correct education system that started to dumb us down in the 1960s.

You can blame it on the looney left.

I work at a school as a maintenance contractor. 5 of the teachers have been in the game for more than 25 years, and all of them hate the job now and are just going through the motions till retirement. They constantly complain about how modern society have legislated out of existence their ability to use their own methods of teaching and punishment. These same methods that taught most of us over 30 years of age and worked quite well. Im shocked at the level of knowlage that these kids have, its terribly low compared to me at the same age. I could go on and on. But I will say this, Its been my observation that the majority of kids with problems have BAD parents, this seems to be the issue, not the child.
Rob...

shaihulud wrote:I help in a high school and the behaviour of today's kids is outrageous.

Bring back the cane and hit the little bastards until they get the message.

I'm tired of being completely powerless to anything effective to and with a kid who tells me to get F^(*%d.

What I would like to do it to punch the little foul mouthed s%^t out, but I dare not do more than report him to a stupid education system that is little better than a glorified child minding institution.

I like my work, but it is so frustrating at times. This contract business is probably the last gasp of a politically correct education system that started to dumb us down in the 1960s.

You can blame it on the looney left.

i agree ,bring back the cane etc as discipline is up the s*it , but agreeing to bring them up a certain way errm well ,all i know is we teach our kids to be treated how they would like to be treated,and if the school rings up about something we dont just say "thats not my (insert name ) he/she wouldnt do that" we go and see them to sort out the problem.

At the high scholl that i attended in Brisbane they insisted that if your child was to attend their school, then the pparents must sign an agreement saying that if your child misbehaves then the school has the rights to give them the cane.

Lee.

buzzbug wrote:At the high scholl that i attended in Brisbane they insisted that if your child was to attend their school, then the pparents must sign an agreement saying that if your child misbehaves then the school has the rights to give them the cane.

Lee.

Iam a parent and I think that's a brilliant idea. Those who disagree have every right to send their kids to another school instead.
My kids are good. but I am pretty strict on them. And not above giving them a wack on the butt if they need it....having said that, neither of them have had it in over a year, so it must have worked 😉
They have rules and they know what the punishment is, (smack is the absolute last resort though..but sometimes I think withdrawl of tv priviledges actually works alot better 😉 )

I am a parent of a 10,13 and 17 year olds

I believe they are normal kids and they have some freedome. the 13 yo in particuler is quite "out there"

That said i am regularly commented to as to how well behaved they are.
I see it as normal.

The biggest problem i have with that bit of paper is not commenting on how the teachers behave.
I have quite a few issues with the teachers at my youngest's school, who is still in primary.

I would be happy to sign - there would be a few additional lines though

If you sign this piece of paper and your child shows bad behaviour, does that mean the school can sue you because they have a signed contract from you stating the kid has been brought up properly? What is properly anyway?
If a child has learning difficulties and social problems, usually no amount of 'good parenting' can help that child behave in a 'normal' way. What would happen then? And what is 'normal' anyway?
If you don't sign the contract, will the child's education be at stake because teachers won't try as hard in teaching them knowing the parents didn't sign a contract?

Eeek... too many questions this early in the morning! :P

A child might be a perfect angel at home, but once with their friends all that can go out the window so of course the child might not be an angel at school... :P

I have no concerns in regards to discipline in my household - and yes the occasional smack comes out to quickly solve an attitude or respect situation. I agree that the schooling system has gone soft - yes I received the strap at school, and have no issues in receiving it, and I think I turned out all right. I also don't plan to sue those that gave it to me.

What I am concerned about is that everyone received these notes (no doubt so that the parents of the little shitters didn't scream out harassment!!), however it does smack of an education system that is now trying to play catch up, and to put the onus on parents to do the right thing.

However - I do the right thing.....so why should I sign? We're already in a society where you can't do this, can't do that, be careful about this and that else I'll sue etc, etc, but things need to be fixed from a legislation perspective. Stop all of these goodie two shoes no kids right for lifers who'll dob me into DOCS if I give my kids a clip around the ear in public sometime, and let me (pod and Bazza too) get on with parenting their kids in the way that they seem fit.

Don't sign it.

Take a contract around to those whiny bastards and see if they'll sign a contract that says they'll actually learn to spell, to prepare lessons rather than copy notes that have been used by 15 other teachers. That they will pronounce words properly and actually work for the entirity of the school day. That they will not trot out the overused lie that they work during thier 12 weeks off.

And a real big section stating that they will allow 'grub'ernment and public assessment of thier performance.

I would be taking their little contract to the press and embarrassing the 21 year old who dreamed it up straight after graduating from a course they got into with a tertiary entrance rank of 36!

Squiz,

I reckon they are damned if they do....etc

If they send a letter to all parents then they are outlining the overall expectation of a certain level of behaviour. The teachers all ready have this under the code of conduct. If they dont comply, complain.

Parenting varies sooo much, so having a universal set of guidelines gives an indication of where the line is.

Its like lunches, some parents reckon a maccas in the school would be great, some want an organic health bar and some want pub grub etc etc

There is no easy answer but trying to outline behaviour in a letter is really hard without sounding like a pontificator or a wanker. As usual the ones who do ok get tarred by the same brush as that which identifies the little ba$tards.

The parents of said $nots are usually the ones up threatening teachers and wanting little jonny cut heaps of slack.

Hence the popularity of private education facilities that can maintain a different value system because the consumer pays for it.

Its funny how the cheaper or free a system the more its abused.

In hospitals we found that patients making a (small) contribution to the cost of medications increased the compliance with them out of sight. Ppl would just shove the freebies in the drawer. Go figure.

I went to a school with class canings and it didnt affect me so shut up or I will bash you all (joking.....)

😘kiss

What is your solution?

kkk

squizy wrote:I have no concerns in regards to discipline in my household - and yes the occasional smack comes out to quickly solve an attitude or respect situation. I agree that the schooling system has gone soft - yes I received the strap at school, and have no issues in receiving it, and I think I turned out all right. I also don't plan to sue those that gave it to me.

What I am concerned about is that everyone received these notes (no doubt so that the parents of the little shitters didn't scream out harassment!!), however it does smack of an education system that is now trying to play catch up, and to put the onus on parents to do the right thing.

However - I do the right thing.....so why should I sign? We're already in a society where you can't do this, can't do that, be careful about this and that else I'll sue etc, etc, but things need to be fixed from a legislation perspective. Stop all of these goodie two shoes no kids right for lifers who'll dob me into DOCS if I give my kids a clip around the ear in public sometime, and let me (pod and Bazza too) get on with parenting their kids in the way that they seem fit.

squizy wrote:It seems a little draconian, and little bit big brother to me.
[ Edited on 29-3-2006 by squizy ]

it is!! it is!!
i dont have kids, and what you have mentioned here still seems totally outrageous!
its like getting a contract from your workplace saying that you MUST behave this certain way at home and wear certain coloured underwear on thursday...
how you raise your family and treat your children and friends is a personal thing, everyone does it a little differently, and you would expect for most people who make it past the age of 16 that they know right from wrong, or at least be familiar with that grey area...

that said, no matter how well your kid behaves at home, get them together with some friends and watch the behaviour go right out the door... im sure everyone here can admit to being a little shit when their parents werent around, and most definitely at school... it doesnt matter how well your parents raised you, if you wanted to do something, you did it.

that said, alot of kids i see these days are right royal shits... manners has something to do with it, and respect has a lot to do with it. when i was young, BOTH of those qualities were taught at home and at school.

it seems everything has to have a contract these days...

[ Edited on 29-3-06 by Starbug ]

Starbug wrote:and respect has a lot to do with it.

That's right. Who can respect a teacher that can't spell, who calls themselves a professional yet will not submit to any sort of quality assurance and measurement of their performance?

Respect is two way. My children will never be taught to respect someone just because they are older or in a certain position.

Maybe teachers would get respect if they did thier job well and respected children. Have you ever seen what a teacher does when they are wrong but are corrected by one of thier students?

The few teachers that make any effort and do a good job are easy to recognise. They respect thier students and thier students respect them.

Bart Simposn is to blame . BAN THE SIMPSONS!!!!! or at lease till all kids are in bed.
Miychell

koolkarmakombi wrote:What is your solution?

kkk

I suppose we are lucky that we live in a democratic society, whereby we all have certain rights too look at things in different ways. Some of us will look at this and go "what's the problem?", others will say "fight it tooth and nail".

For me, I work in contracts for a living at the moment, and one thing I've learnt is that you don't put your name to something you don't agree with, and that you have the right to expect changes to the contract prior to signing. You also have the right not to sign at all.

So what am I going to do? Well at this point I will be discussing it with the teacher tomorrow afternoon, and possibly with the principal if I have to. I'm not going to get up on my high horse (not too high), but may raise it anonomously to the media. I'm not going to kick up and make too big a fuss to the possible detriment of my children's education. I have explained to my kids that you don't have to agree with everything....that you do have a right to question things that go against your principles, so long as you do it in a manner that is intelligent and acceptable.

No way, Simpsons is awesome! Brings some sanity into my life of insanity.... :P 😂

I never got caned by teachers at school and I turned out alright. Some kids need caning but it shouldn't be done by anyone besides their parents or other kids (not bullying, just teaching a lesson). I can say that if a teacher had of hit me I would have hit them back. Physicallly harming someone who can't defend themsleves is one of the lowest things a person can do. I guess a parent can make that decsion when disciplining their child but anyone else should keep their hands to themsleves unless they'd like the same thing done to them. Maybe I'm biased as I'm not a teacher, or a parent, but I do have parents and have had many teachers, good and bad.

That being said I don't agree with signing a form telling people how to rasie their children. I'd tell them to stick that form somewhere other than a letterbox

[ Edited on 29-3-06 by EgeWorks ]

Well said, totally agree.

A teacher at my high school actually hit a boy (and he did deserve it mind you, but still...) with one of those huge metre long wooden rulers across his back. Left a whopping great bruise and she got fired as a result, but she said 'someone had to teach him a lesson'. This boy towered over his mates, so none of them would ever lay a hand on him if he was out of line and his parent's didn't care either.

HotRodMatt wrote:Don't sign it.

Take a contract around to those whiny bastards and see if they'll sign a contract that says they'll actually learn to spell, to prepare lessons rather than copy notes that have been used by 15 other teachers. That they will pronounce words properly and actually work for the entirity of the school day. That they will not trot out the overused lie that they work during thier 12 weeks off.

And a real big section stating that they will allow 'grub'ernment and public assessment of thier performance.

I would be taking their little contract to the press and embarrassing the 21 year old who dreamed it up straight after graduating from a course they got into with a tertiary entrance rank of 36!

Obviously not a teacher or know any good ones...I worked 60 hours last week, teaching and preparing...and get paid crap.

I ask my students to sign contracts all the time, obviously not legal binding contracts, what contract is these days...but just aggreements that we will all try to work together to achieve a particular goal...great idea.

My school also have faculty contracts and school contracts for misbehaviour that require each teacher to sign each lesson and parents to sign each night, next step is suspension, two short suspensions and one long then your on your own, expulsion, see ya later...

Most teachers are there to work with you, squizy if you said to me "dont tell me how to parent" then straight away we'd have a problem, work together, get involved in your school and your childrens education and the life of the school, have a say and be involved and invite your childrens teachers to do the same...

Comments like the ones ive quoted dont do anything for anyone...my school would be happy not to teach this persons children, we dont need that sort of negativity...its not war, them and us...

Also, my mother has been a teacher for over 30 years, she works a lot of her 12 weeks preparing...so do many teachers i know, new teachers spend a lot of after hours time in prep...50-60 hours is the norm for a lot of teachers...

Good behaviour has nothing to do with physical or loud verbal discipline, I never raise my voice, and you can hear a pin drop in most of my classes...

My step-mum is a uni lecturer in Linguistics.... she works ALL the time, if it's not marking work it's preparing more. Never ending!

Thanks Bruce for your thoughts on this. I'm very closely engaged with the school, and certainly don't invoke an us and them relationship with my kids teachers. At the beginning of every school year I make a point of meeting the new one if I haven't already done so, and get up to school every few days when we have our school aged kids (we have a blended family). I was also on the school Support Group, so have a relationship at that level too.

It just seems odd that it has now come to this.....that we have to have these things coming out of the school when it wasn't required in the "olden days".

I'll still be meeting with the teacher tomorrow to talk it through.

Good luck with it all Squiz! It'll be good to voice your thoughts, and to hear the teacher's too.

My son has just begun his sentence in the system this year. A small country school, combined classes, wonderful teachers. Will be interesting to see how we go when we move back to the 'bigsmokes' next term. One thing I have gone out of my way to do is monitor my child, by communicating with the teacher I am able to nip any misbehaviour in the bud. My opinion is that he is there to learn, social skills as well as academic development. Too many parents just shove their kids into the system, not back the teachers up etc then go complaining about thier childs behaviour and trying to put the blame on the teachers.

Yes 'free thinking' individuals are great. But perhaps the best results are obtained by giving children some boundaries. Without any structure, or exsposure to any consequences is there a possibility that may create very narrowminded adults, bitter about every hurdle they face, or conflicting opinion to thier own 'free thinking'? The ability to reason comes through exsposure to knowledge. How can a child, hell bent on disrupting class, disrespecting teachers etc expect to learn and grow. Is it fair on the other willing and co-opperative students, when a good part of the teachers focus is directed towards the 'difficult child'? Yes there are some bad teachers out there, but there are also many different schools to choose from. Don't like the school, then leave? Private or public, there is no guarantee the teaching will be perfect.

It is sad that a school has to resort to contracts, but on the upside, contracts are a common occurance in daily adult life. Perhaps the kids may learn something about commitment and obligation? :duh:

I sympathise with both parties.

Having taught for 2 years and coming from a family where 3 of 4 brothers are teachers, as are both my parents and three of my aunts and uncles, I have heard all the bad stories before. Teachers do work hard, get paid little relative to qualifications, and by and large they are not shown a lot of repsect by kids or many parents.

That said, the holidays are amazing. I know, I experienced them.

I'd be a little hesitant to sign a contract, but then I'm probably not the parent that needs it. I think what the school is trying to get across it that, just like the parents have expectations of the school, it's just as reasonable for the school to have expectations of the parents. That is, that parents will back the school up in discipline and work with the teachers rather than against them. Becasue the latter is often the case. All my family went into teaching to help people. Nothing is worse than having an ungrateful child abuse you loudly and then to have his parents brush it off, make excuses or worse still, ignore the schools phonecalls and letters. That is why there will be a shortage of teachers before too long.

BTW, most of the current crop of teachers are due to retire in the next 5 to 10 years. If you want to look after your children well. Look after their teachers. 😉

HRMatt, I think you oversimplified the situation.

Bruce, more power to ya brother.

HotRodMatt wrote:I would be taking their little contract to the press and embarrassing the 21 year old who dreamed it up straight after graduating from a course they got into with a tertiary entrance rank of 36!

I don't know about in NSW, but in Victoria, the scores required for a post graduate diploma in education are certainly not a piece of cake (not degree straight out of school stuff, but teaching qualification none the less).
I applied for entry to the post graduate diploma and got in last year - however, I got in as a full fee paying student, not HECS, as my previous scores from my under graduate degree were not high enough for a HECS place. Please keep in mind that I had a score that was just fractionally under a distinction average.

I have now graduated with flying colours from my diploma (all As except for two very high Bs) and as yet, don't have a job. Hopefully all those 'current round of teachers' will retire SOON!

Just another angle...

HotRodMatt wrote:

Starbug wrote:and respect has a lot to do with it.

That's right. Who can respect a teacher that can't spell, who calls themselves a professional yet will not submit to any sort of quality assurance and measurement of their performance?

Respect is two way. My children will never be taught to respect someone just because they are older or in a certain position.

Maybe teachers would get respect if they did thier job well and respected children. Have you ever seen what a teacher does when they are wrong but are corrected by one of thier students?

The few teachers that make any effort and do a good job are easy to recognise. They respect thier students and thier students respect them.

All NSW DET schools have ongoing training and assessment, every teacher goes through evaluation every year...

New teachers have a crap load of evaluation...

Good luck getting into teaching with 36 in your hsc, not sure what state or uni thats quoted from...

[ Edited on 30-3-2006 by byronbus ]

Hahaha, if I had to teach a class for a day I'd be giggling at the class clowns and smartie pants like I did when I was at school. That would only make them be funnier, so they wouldn't learn very much from me!! :P

Can people please remember that it's not cool to generalise a whole group of people in such a negative way! I'm a teacher and I really take offence at anyone suggesting that I don't care about my work or my students, and that I get overpaid considering all of the leave I get. Remember that unless you have experience in the actual job then you probably don't know what you are talking about. Even if you have been a teacher there is very little merit in suggesting that all schools are the same, let alone teachers.

Surely everyone can remember the variety of teachers they had at school and the fact that different teachers communicated with students and taught in different ways. Please don't start slagging off the work that I do as I love it and believe that I'm good at it.

I agree about the difference in teachers. It is the variety that makes school a viable place to be when you are a student. You gel better with some teachers and/ or subjects and it helps to form your learning curve in various areas.

I may have been ok in maths and crap at english then, but now I have to use a calculator to work out change and read heaps of massive books. Totally opposite to then. I realise now it was my relation to those particular teachers. Different personalities, different reactions. That's life.

I suppose I will get there one day when I have kids. They will know respect for not just teachers or older adults, but tolerance for all people, that's for sure. If anyone will give ateacher a hard time it will be me 🙂 not!

ruckus wrote:Can people please remember that it's not cool to generalise a whole group of people in such a negative way! I'm a teacher and I really take offence at anyone suggesting that I don't care about my work or my students, and that I get overpaid considering all of the leave I get. Remember that unless you have experience in the actual job then you probably don't know what you are talking about. Even if you have been a teacher there is very little merit in suggesting that all schools are the same, let alone teachers.

Surely everyone can remember the variety of teachers they had at school and the fact that different teachers communicated with students and taught in different ways. Please don't start slagging off the work that I do as I love it and believe that I'm good at it.

Cool. As a teacher, what are your thoughts on what I started this thread about. The only reason why I'm raising it is that I've only heard of this thing happening this year, and so was querying whether this is an overall policy change, or just school specific. I certainly would like to hear and understand what you think.

Teachers faciliate learning - that's what we do. We are not 'trained' as social workers and most teachers do not want to be the moral/social justice police. Be assured, kids behave quite differently at school to home, the act differently from class to class, depending on their interest in the topic and their peer group.

Teachers/Schools are goverened by policy, and the school is not able to 'make' this stuff up. It is important that kids study - it actually will improve their life chances - so perhaps a contract with parents should be seen as a positive partnership with parents to assist in your kids social and accademic development.

Given the amount of 'material' to be covered in each KLA, it is not a simple task of showing up and keeping them busy. Most good teachers spend twice as much time preparing lessons as they do delivering them. Dealing with errant kids - especially those that avoid work by causing regular, repeated oppositional disruption greatly affects the whole class.

Some parents are involved with their kids, others treat school as a welcome break from thier kids. Like any policy, some feel it unwelcome for various reasons.

But - the reality in schools is teachers struggle to teach, due to the restrictions and duty of care that governs the operation of the classroom.

If you don't ask a kid a question, then you are disadvantaging them, ask them a question and your picking on them. The bottom line is, if a kid gets up, tells you to fk off and walks out, then not only is the teacher unable to do anything about it, but if that kid then gets hit by a car, or just claims to have fallen over in the hallway, then the teacher is responsible and the school liable.

It is a very thin line that holds schools 'in order', kids that want to cause chaos can and there's stuff all the teacher or school can do about it if the kids hell bent on doing so. It's also very hard to turf a kid, and even if they manage it, then you have to find a school to accept them - and the next school doesn't have to. So you can still be stuck with them.

The vast majority of kids are just that - kids - they are developing an awareness of the world, but without parental example and reinforcement of the need to act like a reasonable citizen and to work towards their own future, then it makes the schools job way harder than it needs to be.

Try dealing with 32 17 year olds that just walk in after they've had a rollocking from another teacher for poor behaviour (kids are great at playing the victim card), then trying to clam them down and inject knowledge, when they'd rather perpetuate the previous incident. The lesson is blown and you spend an hour playing social worker.

Not that I'm bitching, it can be very rewarding when kids try and succeed, and most schools have a positive sense of community...but given the amount of training and re-training, changes to the syllabus, increased demands on attainment etc., then without parents putting in to assist its an ever decreasing circle.

If youve got high school kids, do their teacher a favour - sit down with them and read a book, check their homework, ask the teacher what they should be doing.

It's not the 'content' that is often the issue, but simple literacy levels - reading and writing that parents can help with ... not policing, but just being involved in their weekly study programme. If kids know that the school talks to their parents regularly and that the parents interest in accademic achievement is as strong as the teachers, then they stand a much better chance of doing better, and kids that are interested, engaged in study and value learning are far less likely to disrupt lessons.

Maybe the word 'contract' is wrong, if they called it a 'commitment to learning' or a parent partnership, then it might have been better.

Go to parents evenings, talk to the teachers once a week ... be proactive ... the more we know about the kids, the less social profiling we have to do to try and figure out what motivates them, or why the hell they are so pissed off.

Ah and turn up to parents evenings will ya. In senior years as few as 20% of the kids parents actually show up....says a lot about parental interest.

They're your kids ... if they give you crap at home, then imagine that x 180 - which is about the average number we get to be responsible for. It only takes a few per class to hold back the rest ... you 100% sure it's not your kid thats the class pain in the arse?

Jay_1965vw wrote:

HotRodMatt wrote:I would be taking their little contract to the press and embarrassing the 21 year old who dreamed it up straight after graduating from a course they got into with a tertiary entrance rank of 36!

I don't know about in NSW, but in Victoria, the scores required for a post graduate diploma in education are certainly not a piece of cake (not degree straight out of school stuff, but teaching qualification none the less).
I applied for entry to the post graduate diploma and got in last year - however, I got in as a full fee paying student, not HECS, as my previous scores from my under graduate degree were not high enough for a HECS place. Please keep in mind that I had a score that was just fractionally under a distinction average.

I have now graduated with flying colours from my diploma (all As except for two very high Bs) and as yet, don't have a job. Hopefully all those 'current round of teachers' will retire SOON!

Just another angle...

...what? so you think you can get onto a Bachelor of Education with that score ... think again. Those days are well gone. Think the UAI for UWS last year was well over 85. Why the hell would you do 4 years to graduate on a poxy 40 odd grand.

Why would a teacher take on extra duties as co-ordinators etc., for the poxy amount more you get - they do it because they want to help the kids, sure as hell don't do it for the pay or conditions.

Try co-ordinating a TAS department with 800 kids in food, wood, metal, computing, electronics, engineering, construction, hospitality, textiles - on a budget of $6000 a year....lol...how much bs and stress is that for a whopping 5k a year more....

Don't talk shite ... 21 year olds don't make policy, nor do they graduate off mickey mouse degree courses. Did you know that 75% of the degree is study of exactly the same subjects that other do in computing, science etc., just that when teachers graduate, they can expect to earn half of the others that have been studying the same Uni Units in different degree streams. The level of work and study to be a computing teacher is nothing different to someone wanting to get into Corporate IT for example, same units, same exams...

Dream on ...

crewcabconnection wrote:Given the amount of 'material' to be covered in each KLA, it is not a simple task of showing up and keeping them busy. Most good teachers spend twice as much time preparing lessons as they do delivering them. Dealing with errant kids - especially those that avoid work by causing regular, repeated oppositional disruption greatly affects the whole class.

If you don't ask a kid a question, then you are disadvantaging them, ask them a question and your picking on them. The bottom line is, if a kid gets up, tells you to fk off and walks out, then not only is the teacher unable to do anything about it, but if that kid then gets hit by a car, or just claims to have fallen over in the hallway, then the teacher is responsible and the school liable.

It is a very thin line that holds schools 'in order', kids that want to cause chaos can and there's stuff all the teacher or school can do about it if the kids hell bent on doing so. It's also very hard to turf a kid, and even if they manage it, then you have to find a school to accept them - and the next school doesn't have to. So you can still be stuck with them.

1stly, Deano, you have a good job, get me one like yours...

2ndly, teachers dont get paid enough compared to the responsibility they have and the amount of after hours prep they do. I earn every second of my time off...

3rdly, if a student told me "to F off" i would put the paper work in and they would be on a short suspension, policy is 2 short suspensions, 1 long and you're out of my school off to another, with schools numbers dropping, easier to find a place...thats for k-10, anyone over 15, you're on your own, we dont have to find you a place, you dont have to be at school, but good luck getting a job without finishing school.

4thly, i have the greatest job in the world, however who ever thought up an 11 week term is a fool...

Gotta go and prepare a lesson for tomorrow and a seminar for an inservice on saturday, yep saturday from 9am til 9pm...

UAI for SCU in Lismore 2006 was 85, that is the lowest in the state, and places were full with offers haha...2005 was mid 70s:o

[ Edited on 30-3-2006 by byronbus ]

Bruce, it' the immediate discapline I'm talking about, at the moment they flick you the bird and walk off, what can you do? can't leave the class, can't grab hold of 'em ... you get to stand there looking a twat, send a good kid to the office to report it ... all takes time and yet another hour is wasted dealing with crap - not teaching.

I agree, turf 'em. But just cause they told me to fk off, aint no gurantee that I'll see the last of them. Thats what I was trying to say. I think it would be good to get parents involved, might help the school out.

My job - yeah take it, I'll head to Byron - how the fk do you get a job there, my missus has been on the DET list since 98 for a job up there.

In addition to teaching right now I've got 50 new PCS to build, configure, install, test before week 11. New building opens term 2. Got the network to wire-up, then refit all the infrastructure to cope with the new building. Of course the electricians don't listen and half the stuff hasn't shown up as ordered. Need to install new projectors and set up new lab servers for students. Then train the staff to use the new system (weekends), re-do the entire school timetable (evenings) to deal with the new rooming and class allocations ... oh, we're making a DVD to raise more money to buy more stuff (who else is gonna pay for it), so that another side line project to be done by the end of term and the head wants the kids to help, so that slowed it down)... and I get a massive 4 hour a week allocation for all that that ... then there's the VET classes which don't fit the time table, so I'm there after school doing that for free...then prepare the lessons for the daily classes and finally teach them stuff that will help them get to Uni or a job.

Oh yeah, and babysit a year 8 kid all week that thinks it's okay to spit on other kids from the top balcony - he's in my tutor group, so I get to sort out his social problems ... as his parents haven't yet had time to come into school to talk about it so he's in school isolation.

at least ya get to go surfing ... must be a reason you headed out of Western Sydney....

but I guess every teachers got the same deal ... different extra tasks, sure as hell aint 8/30 till 3pm job. Not many teachers I know hit the car park at 3pm...it's just the pay clock that stops at 3 ay.

If the parents gotta chip in. Good.

crewcabconnection wrote:just that when teachers graduate, they can expect to earn half of the others

Teachers. 4 year trained, 2 years experience $45,826 for a less than 35 hour week and 12 weeks holidays.

Nurses. 4 years trained, 2 years experience $35,848 for a min 38 hour week and 4 weeks holiday.

No need to say any more.

crewcabconnection wrote:... you 100% sure it's not your kid thats the class pain in the arse?

LOL....no my straight A, achievement oriented daughter would debate that one with you. Plus the teacher would have told me when I see them face to face every few days when I pick the kids up from school.

This is not a teacher bashing topic by the way....it's a process topic. I never argue the person, only the process that the person follows. :thumb

Put in the paperwork, ive got very little time today for little turds that want to disrupt my class. I put in the paperwork for any discipline problem, all adds up...and mummy and daddy dont have a leg to stand on...bye bye off to ballina or mullum...

I havent left school before 5pm this week, and have been there at 7.30am and still have stuff to do...Im on every period now til thursday...

haha...35hrs...haha, some people have not a clue...by end of saturday I will have worked over 70 hours this week...

I do agree, nurses and teachers underpaid

[ Edited on 30-3-2006 by byronbus ]

Let's not ruin the intent of the thread guys please.

Sigh, okay then try this.

Go and look on seek and find out how much for a

Network Engineer, System Administrator, Internet Developer, Microsoft Systems Engineer, Novell Engineer, Support Desk and Workplace IT trainer and Assessment would get. You'd need to know C++/ASP/JAVA/SQL/Novell/NOS/VB or .NET at the minimum, sufficient to deliver Cert 3 in schools (next year's target for attainment).

Find how much that guy/gal would get - cause that's what you need to be to work in a school). Oh you also need Cert 4 in IT and Cert 4 in workplace training and assessment to teach IT in VET, as kids actually get real jobs out of it.

We don't get to call in IT firms to sort our problems, nor do we get sent on courses to learn it, we do it ourselves - and get the needed Certs to prove it.

Have to still argue that 'teaching' is just one part of it, and given the experience and skills you need besides teacher/social worker, that a starting salary - for which you don't get 4YT step 2 automatically, is significantly less.

Schools simply can't afford to employ the specialist needed in all the KLAs, so teachers have to do it.

Nurses get shit money too, so do the Police, Firemen etc., no one's gonna argue that...

But without a significant portion of society doing it, then we'd all be stuffed.

your comment read to me like you think that any monkey can go and teach, and that it's well paid and a bit of a bludge ... teachers are used to hearing that ... and that's the whole problem really. It's not the parents or kids, it's those damn bludging teachers.

It's rediculous to suggest that parents need to stand up and be counted or take responsibility for their kids. Its true that teachers have a legal 'duty of care' in school hours - ie you can go to jail if a kid get's hurt etc.,). So don't think it's too much to ask for parents to take over the rest...why not be accountable for your own kids? Teachers have to and they ain't even ours.

crewcabconnection wrote:Have to still argue that 'teaching' is just one part of it, and given the experience and skills you need besides teacher/social worker, that a starting salary - for which you don't get 4YT step 2 automatically, is significantly less.

Nurses get shit money too, so do the Police, Firemen etc., no one's gonna argue that...

your comment read to me like you think that any monkey can go and teach, and that it's well paid and a bit of a bludge ... teachers are used to hearing that ... and that's the whole problem really. It's not the parents or kids, it's those damn bludging teachers.

Its comments like HRM that we get tired of hearing, im all for squizy's question and the fact that he's going to talk it through with the school...Im just not into the simpleton comments of others...

Haha, 35 hrs, thats funny...HRM will be the butt of our jokes tomorrow, 35hrs haha

But you know what ive learned of late, from the religious debates and this discussion, that some people carry with them baggage from past burnt experiences and it makes them bitter and twisted...

Same old people talking the same old shit, thats avd's downfall, I apologise if ive been a part of it...

I bite too easy and dont ignore very easily...

Squizy, back to the point...

talk to the principal or DP, dont just write a letter, make some time to have a chat...and raise it at the P&C, communication with parents and teachers. I have a great deal of time for students and parents who get involved and try and work stuff out. Ive got very little time for parents and students who couldnt give a toss...

I will help any student who is prepared to meet me half way, wont tolerate a student who continues to waste my time, ive got lots of half recesses and lunches, desks need cleaning all the time, and not just the top but the old chewy on the bottom as well, works a treat, waste my time, i'll waste yours...kids love it, well they seem to get it together pretty quick, a week of chewy cleaning kills them...

haha 35 hrs haha


[ Edited on 30-3-2006 by byronbus ]

Yes I agree parents have to be responsible as care givers and role models. I think that was pretty clear earlier on in the thread.

So it appears that some other schools also have contracts. The thing is, is that the contract covers off everything that we do in our household already. I understand the pressures some teachers are under, appreciate the work they put in, but do not understand still why I should have to sign a contract about how I should raise my kids or how they should behave in school.....because the principles our family set circumvent such a contract.

If ever there was a contract that I would sign, it would be from my own parents, letting me know that I was fit enough in their eyes to have kids, and here are the guidelines through which you shall raise them. LOL.

Obviously society is so stuffed up nowadays to the point that we make our parents sign a piece of paper to make sure that they bring up their kids correctly. As someone very wise said earlier in this thread, I rather sign a piece of paper saying it was ok to give my kids the cane.

get the kids to read and have them sign it .the problem is it starts earlier back at pre school some parents don,t set boundries instead of being a parent to thier children they want to be their friend my wife see,sit at the child centre she runs and at the school our kids go to,when you see parents bing macs ,kfc and other take aways in for their lunch the parent needs a flick across the head.

Pleased your daughter is straight A. She might be a) good at filtering out class disruption and do effective self-guided study or b) just be in a great class with low problems.

Either way, it's a credit to you and her and seems like the partnership is working.

However, there are many kids that struggle to study, are put off by morons, and simply stop learning becuase of muppets around them. Many simply don't know how to do it - where do they best learn it - from their parents.

I'm with Bruce and you on this ... but if there are muppets in the school, that contrinue to disadvantage other kids chances and don't have parents that give a toss - plenty don't - then why should pro-active kids, pro-active parents and schools needs to deal with their crap. If this adds a layer of responsibility then great. If it changes one kids behaviour, then that will have a positive effect on 29 others in 5 hours a day....that makes it worth trying to me.

While Ive found the vast majority of parents supportive - some are also sometimes shocked that their angel can be a muppet at school - some fix it, some just deny that it's a possibility and some just don't give a toss.

It's the hard working kids that often miss out, as far too much time I think is spent dealing with the 'behaviour policy' and 'process' needed for a few. You don't have to be an A student to be working and trying to get better. Some kids work really hard to go from C to B, where as some kids can cruise B to start with.

Its all about the effort, I think kids that are trying, especially those that are not 'gifted', actually get pissed with the interuptions as much as teachers. However, the class clown is often a 'strong' force in the peer group - and kids often don't want to be seen trying, or don't want to tell the kid with the mouth to tack off for fear of playground or peer pressure bullying - and bullying can be direct or subtle ... excluding a kid because they try is a real issue too.

It's a complex situation, as your dealing with say 1000 kids, 2000 parents .. each with their own care factor and opinion ... so unlikely to make all happy.

But I really think that if the positive parents and positive kids get behind the school, then there is a possibility of improvement for all those other kids in the middle, and theres more pressure on the small number of clowns that need sorting.

Some will be too hard core to crack, but some might lift their game - and if just one kid benefits then it's worth it - even if it's not gonna be your kid - or that you might never really know if it did - you either think it's worth a go, or not.

If not, then come up with another plan ... don't just poo-poo it - or assume it's written by an over paid - over holiday-ed 21 year old with a UAi of 35 that came up with it.

The latter is just arrogant at best.

Im not sure squiz id ever ask you to sign a contract about what you do at home. However when i meet some parents it becomes obvious why their child behaves they way they do...

I take a lot of interest in what home is like...I teach many students who have terrible home situations, in the big picture that effects how i teach.

Learning and behaviour difficulties determine how i prepare each and every lesson, and homework (not that im a big fan of homework, but thats another topic). I often ask students to make "contracts" that they will complete certain things, sometimes that takes a commitment from home as well...

But not sure, other than in conversation with you face to face, id ask you to sign a contract on what you do at home...

spot on Bruce.

A. If you think you'll be a good teacher because all you need is a low UAI - wrong.
B. You be a teacher because it's good pay and low hours - wrong
C. Be a teacher because you want massive holidays - wrong

If these are reasons to be a teacher - don't come to my school, we'll turf you in a heatbeat, we don't need people like you in the profession.

If that's your honest opinion of teachers...don't have kids...cause kids feed of parental/cultural baggage. Parents set the pathway way before we get 'em. We have tenure and are obliged to try and repair that kid of damaged thinking ... not for ourselves, nor for parents that think like that ... but for the kids. Just because the parent hasn't got a clue about education or the damaging effects of spouting crap at home ... doesn't mean that the kid is obliged to follow in the same footsteps.

But whatever you do, refrain from passing on that kind of baggage to your kids, they look up to their parents in early childhood especially. If you don't support the school and bag it and the teachers ... all your doing is moulding another muppet and affecting their life chances. Education being the best route to social mobility.

Anyway, had my rant....if HRM is right, then schools are full of over paid, under worked, low educated bludgers. Lets hope you're good at home schooling.

maybe they are talking about behaviour contracts, they are not new.

Matt, just out of interest. Have you got kids at school? Where do they go to school? What are the teachers like there? Why are you so cranky with teachers?

crewcabconnection wrote:I think kids that are trying, especially those that are not 'gifted', actually get pissed with the interuptions as much as teachers. However, the class clown is often a 'strong' force in the peer group - and kids often don't want to be seen trying, or don't want to tell the kid with the mouth to tack off for fear of playground or peer pressure bullying

you know, ive noticed that it doesnt get any better at university either... especially in a lecture hall of 400 first year students... i dont remember how many times i had to stand up and tell other students to shut up (of course they would start yapping on again 5 minutes later)
and even now, in second year i have done it once.

if they were the class clowns in school, it certainly hasnt sunken in that THEY are paying for the privelledge to be sitting in that lecture hall.

one of the guys in my course has his bachelors of education, hes gone back to uni to do science so he can be head of department at the school he teaches at... i envy him because he will be able to share his knowledge and help nurture knowledge from future generations, but i dont envy him because half of the kids in his classes really dont give a shit about being there.

it must be so hard teaching those who dont want to learn :|

Starbug wrote:one of the guys in my course has his bachelors of education, hes gone back to uni to do science so he can be head of department at the school he teaches at... i envy him because he will be able to share his knowledge and help nurture knowledge from future generations, but i dont envy him because half of the kids in his classes really dont give a shit about being there.

it must be so hard teaching those who dont want to learn :|

I ended up teaching music in a special ed school for exactly that reason. I couldn't be bothered wasting my effort and time on a bunch of kids who didn't give a stuff. It was a good decision. I made far more impact in the special ed school than I would have in a normal school I think.

gotta say that i would have to agree with CCC and BB as it is wrong for HRM to put teachers all in one category. i ahve a few friends who are teachers, and they certainly do more than the 9 to 3-30 bit.
i would think it is like any profession. you will get those that strive to achieve and those that are there to work. but hopefully schools are good at weeding out the useless.
i think the biggest problem is the attitude of the child, and that first comes back to the parents and home life. if a parent is making the right rules and setting the right boundaries then the child has a reference point to go from.
i can see this first hand with my neices and nephews jsut by the different approaches adopted by my brother and sister.

I'd sign the contract

I have two school age children - one grade 6 and one grade 2 - both have brilliant minds and even better attitudes - there has never been a single incident where either of them have been in significant trouble where we have had to attend the school.

I expect the teachers to behave a certain way and instill good learning practices in my children so that when they move up to secondary and / or tertiary education they are prepared for the hard work that is before them...they also can't be ready for this unless Kris and I reinforce the standards that they are taught at school at home.

5 days a week my daughters' teachers spend as much time as I do with them if not more - our children's education is a partnership betweek the school and us. I expect a lot from the school (and get it in spades by the way) and I can't see why they can't expect a lot from the parents because in my opinion the damage that is done is more often than not perpetrated by parents who are not fit to own a pet let alone raise human beings.

When my eldest daughter starts her secondary education next year, whether she likes it or not, we will be there for each and every parent teacher interview. Education of my girls will remain a partnership between the schools and ourselves until the kids finish.

The contract, I feel, is not a case of BB wanting to have all the power - I believe it's a result of teachers feeling that the education of our children is about more than reading, writing and arithmetic - it's about a holistic approach, and it might make the parents who don't give a fat rats arse sit up and notice that they have kids that need guidance at home as well as at school.

Good luck for anyone getting into teaching these days! Many do wonder what is being taught in the school system with the way many of the students come out. It's frustrating with the way they write, spell and are unable to do even basic maths in the immediate years following school. Maybe many of the ones we see are the class clowns and smartie pants but the promise of them getting on the dole soon brings them down to earth! It usually only takes one call to an employer to get them back to earth and on track!

Contracts.... Some may not be aware but any student who enrols in a NSW TAFE course signs a contract when they sign the enrolment form so make sure you read all of the conditions!

If parents had to have the same amount of quals to be a parent there wouldn't be any kids.



[ Edited on 31/3/2006 by 1500S ]

OK maybe its time I came clean.

I was one of those class clowns.
I was always kicked out of class
I was always up at the office
While at uni I was always told to 'Shut up' by other students
I recieve the cane many times (both at primary and secondary school)

In grade 12 we were all ask to sign "Contracts" and I refused.

I was tolded I had to sign. The contract simply stated that we would be a good example of the school to the community and younger grades.

I had to stand before assembly and give my reasons why I wouldn't sign the contract.


I said "I couldn't esure that I would be a good example to younger grades however atleast I am honest and geniune enough to admit it, and not sign something a contract saying I would.

The school refused to use me a 'Seniors Badge' however I never signed the contract




Jeremy

I caught up with my daughters teacher this morning. The contracts are in place, and have been in place for years 5 & 6 for a number of years. Because there are some major excursions this year to Bathurst and Canberra, there is no formal way for the teachers to get some control over the disruptive children prior to these excursions. By having the agreements, the teachers have some leverage by which to "out manage" the constant trouble makers from the excursions by way of a number of strikes. Whether I sign or not is not going to change the fact that the process is in place, but will show the school that I've read it.

Now that I have this information, it is a little clearer why it's in place. I'm still not sure that I will sign though after all that.

Thanks to all those who imparted their wisdom through the thread. 👍

has anyones kids been to a montissori school ? we visitedone today it was very weird the kids 3-6 were working together and by themselves "working hard" and there was no noise or disruptivness ,hmm did i spell that right?

that's fair enough. The duty of care that the government places on teachers is massive, and all the excitement of a trip out makes it a hard day out for teachers and students. Trips take a great deal of planning to ensure, above all, that kids are 'safe'. If a kid is unable to follow instructions at school, or unwilling to comply with basic 'rules', then it places all at risk on a school trip. If they seek attention through negative ways at school, then it's quite simply a safety issue for the school.

Better to leave those with a proven track record of muppet behaviour at school. And should parent's insist that the kid goes (as they may say that their child is being disadvantaged), then making the parents and the student aware of 'acceptable' behaviour in a formal way is one mechanism the school has to ensure that the teachers and school has covered it's bases in regard to safety of all.

Good stuff, glad to hear you talked it out at school, keep doing it - especially in high school, by year 9 half the parents don't show up at parent teacher nights!

Bren, monti schools can be great for some kids, and confusing to others ... very much depends on the kid, and they often have a common ethos in the Monti-part, but different ways of delivering it. Personally, I believe that noise can be a good thing. The main thing to look at to me is a class that has well planned and structured activities ... be that in pre-school or year 12, mainsteam or monti...kids work well in structures, and don't like 'guess what the point is' activities. They like it clear, simple and to the point.

if the kid doesn't get the point, then they challenge it, and that might lead to learning issues. Monti works for my friends kid, she loves it, but my kid just would not get it, he sees the world differently...

Major point that one. We are all different!

is that why some people grow up and buy new Commodores I guess, and other's never grow up and stuff about with VWs.

deano ,does your friends child at "monti" have any issues like not being a good reader or lacking math skills etc, these are the issues we are contemplating , an do you know if
they are doing sport there? mind you our Monet is only seven months old , lol but you gotta start somewhere

A few days ago someone on this forum contacted me about some stuff and refered me to his webpage at the same time.

As it turns out he's a teacher too. Here is his website...

http://www.remixreality.com/lizarddrinking/index.html

You might like to read his mission statement.

http://www.remixreality.com/lizarddrinking/Author.html

For all those who bagged teachers during this thread, please take note at the proffesionalsim and commitment this person has. I'll let you figure out who it is, then you might like to retract your statements.