Recon the 1600 or go the 1776?

Well my 71' Baja has sat down the back yard long enough. It's cooling down enough to work towards rego.

Known to many as the Dog-O-War I fired him up this afternoon and brought him round the front to refurbish, roll on some paint and replace the faded seatbelts. I let him idle a while this afternoon and wasn't surprised to see oil bleeding from the perished seal behind the pulley wheel.

Q. If I'm seeking reliability and a little more bottom end should I...

Option A: Retain the 1600tp and go a bottom end up recondition or

Option B: Pay the extra and go out to a 1776.

What prices would be considered as reasonable and what sort of questions should I be asking the mechanics here to ensure they know what they are doing?

Thanks in advance.

The Bronze. (Dubbo)
PS - I'm running a PICT34 with dual cannons.

If you are going to the trouble to go 1776 then you may as well go 1916. Cost is the same, reliability is the same, but the power is increased with the 1916..............

Are you sure the 1600 really needs a rebuild ?

There is no seal behind the pulley, unless you are running an aftermarket sand seal.:jesus

[ Edited on 31-3-2006 by Craig Torrens ]

i read a how to baja fact sheet on www.sandrail.com and it was mentioned if you are going to build a baja you should start with a 1776 or bigger , however i drive all day every day in my splitty in a 1600 and shes very reliabable but im upgrading to a 2017cc so ill just have to service her a bit more often .

[ Edited on 31-3-2006 by kroozzn62 ]

With it being a Baja, why not go a 2lt T4 motor ?

I live 4 and a 1/2 hours from the coast and I don't want to trailer the Baja to and from Stockton 2 or 3 times a year. I want it to be reliable as the main priority. The reason I'm not considering the 1916, (as good as they are) is the fact they do dump a lot of power. What I will end up with is a great engine with a screwed transaxle or clutch out in the middle of stocko.

I am more than happy with the 1600. It delivers adequate power and has a lovely note through the twin pipes at full song. I don't want to upgrade to a kombi box just yet. The 1776 would be a choice if it's as reliable and not much more costly.

I'm sure this 1600 I have does have a sand seal behind the crank pulley. Whatever is supposed to be holding the oil in has shat itself.

Bronze.

type 1 engines have like a little flicker thing that flicks the oil back into the sump when it tries to get out. i dont know how to explain it.

u can get sand seals for pulleys they run them alot in the US on rails and things.

i havent seen a type 1 with a major leak at the pulley before.

as i said in my other post.

ill let you know how my 1776 goes as im putting it in on sunday.

my bajas a bit older than yours but we run similar gear so it should be a good reference for you.

oh and bronze check this place out

http://www.buggyadventures.com.au/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=index

Thanks mate - I'll sit in waiting.

It would be very easy to dump a bigger mill in but I really don't want the power hassles. My brother bought a SLR5000 copy when I was about 12. For the next three years he went through gearboxes, diffs, drive shafts, mounts you name it he replaced it at least twice. It spent more time off the road than on. The best thing he ever did to it was wrap it around a tree.

Bronze.

the 1776 is a fantastic engine, so strong you can abuse the hell out of them with no worrys at all... i have just built one up for my baja and cant wait to get it all finished. I used to run a 1776 in my street bug and it would sit on 90 mph for hours with out missing a beat. I even had the msfortune of the sound deadning coming of the back and totaly covering the fan intake. i didnt notice (stereo up to loud) till i started to lose power. I turned her of and the engine niped up, wouldnt turn over again.

iwas i the middle of no where swearing and cursing for a few hours . After about 4 hours i managed to get her de-niped and of i went very slowly as i needed to make it home.. buy the time i had got home i was thrashing the hell out if it again with the oh well its rooted cuz it niped up theroy. That was over 7 years ago and its still running great in my mates bug with the only sign it ever happened is if you sit and hig revs for long periods u get a puff of blue smoke when u beck of and hit it again...

i went 1835 after that and regreted it from day one the 1776 was such a bullet proof engine and went bloody well to...

I know what i woud be doing:thumb

steff.....................................

I have heard a few things like DubCrazy's comment and would like a little more bottom end than the 1600 provides at present but don't want to end up with a less reliable engine. I'm not a speed freak - just love climbing huge dunes the 4x4's can't.

Any more opinions?

Bronze.

Reliability comes from who builds it and the parts used , not necessarily the capacity.

Craig Torrens wrote:Reliability comes from who builds it and the parts used , not necessarily the capacity.

I'm with Craig. No matter how big it is, it'll only last if it's built properly. That said, Hans Klaack, the bloke who built two awesome aircooled motors for myself and my bro (and about a million others), said he won't give people waranties for anything bigger than an 1835 type 1. And even then he asks people to put external oil coolers on them to make sure.

Hans reckons a stocker twinport 1640 with a standard cam, jetted up standard carb and some ratio rockers is the ultimate in reliablity and performance. He built one for an offroad racer and this guy thrashed it for a whole season. Foot flat over jumps and revving it's guts out. He couldn't kill it. Won the class outright coz everything broke down. It never failed to finish a race.

The next year he went out with a fullhouse type 4 and killed by over-revving it on the first jump.
:cry

Give Hans a call and see what he thinks...9724 5901

Thanks Pete.

I will give him a call and see where he is and sort a quote. I like to shop locally but if the guys here don't fill me with confidence I will happily pay the freight to and from another shop.

1776 Engines are great, I used to have one in my Baja Bug and ran a 34 pict carb on and it was great offroad. I turned the Baja back into a street beetle and used to drive between the Gold Coast and Brisbane everyday (before speed cameras) and would sit on 160km/h for most of the trip no problems......Ended up selling the car when we had kids and have regretted it since.....:cry

Hmm.

So, any ideas on the costs of each guys?

My current donor is a 1300 block with 1600tp heads and blocks. Can this be used for a recon 1776 and how many clams is a reasonable figure?

I'd pick up a later block if I were you. The dual relief is better for bigger motors, especially if you want to put external cooling on it.

Hi Bronze, good to hear from you again.

Oil coming from behind the pulley means the engine is rooted. Behind the pulley is a reverse thread and oil slinger washer. They are sufficient to keep the oil in on a standard motor. The reverse thread pushes oil back into the case. The problem is it will push everything else into the engine too (like if sand goes behind the pulley). So with a Baja you should keep the bit of tin that goes behind the pulley as it will help keep dirt and sand away from the back of it.

When you engine is rooted and has too much blow-by (from worn rings) the crankcase pressure will be too high and will force blow-by and oil out past the back of the pulley.

I had an 1835 which was good, but the blow-by from the warping 92mm cylinders (and worn rings) was too messy.

So I went to rebuild it to a 1776. I thought I'd get out of it for $1000. This would cover the new cylinders, reco-heads, and new gaskets / bearings. Part way into the rebuild the budget blew out because the case was rooted and could not be line-bored anymore. This and other things meant it ended up closer to $2000. The 1776 was a great motor. I ran it single carb for ages, then put twin kadrons on. The twin kadrons were a great improvement.

Although you probably won't like this suggestion, if you want reliable then put a jap motor in it. If you do everything yourself and use an older carby subi motor you'd get out of it fairly cheaply. When you price up the bug motor rebuild, also price up a carby suby for comparison.

or you could just sell the Baja and buy a 1992 Pajero for around the $5 to $6k mark....................................although you probably won't like that suggestion either.
😉

1776, give Kombi Rescue a call for a quote 0400 356 057

Built a sweet 1776 for my split, twin kads, ran Byron to Sydney and back many times, never missed a beat...highly recommended

Thanks Pete - I'll overlook considering the 1300 block for the rebuild. Keep it for sentimental value.

Wes - Nice to be back. Hmm - waterpumper option will be to bigger job for me I think. More to go wrong and I'm good at wiring but not that keen to play with such a spagetti mess. Regardless it nice to know what the actual problem is. Why it leaking and what needs to be done. It been backed into its far share of dunes in it time.

The 1650 & 1776 options are looking the heathiest thus far thanks to Dubcrazy, 11Cab, Wes and Byron. The wife like the Pajero solution the best Craig, unfortunately I don't know anyone selling a 92' model so I won that arguement.

Don't know if I'd go the Twin Kadrons when playing in the sand. I've seen plenty out in the dunes but I'm a little skeptical that they are truly sand proof. You can get excellent filters these days but I'm partial to the small Donaldson filter for best results - very agricultural.

Thanks to all who have added comment so far. I am aware the 1916 is a good option but as stated earlier I don't want tonnes of oompf. Reliabilty is the key. I see there are couple of 1776's on offer. Mabey time to do some further investigations. Thanks to Pete and Byron for supplying the contact numbers.

Bronze.

Bronze, I meant an earlier carby suby motor, not an efi one. No spagetti to worry about. It would be almost as simple as the vw motor, and with the advantage being that when you get bored of it you can step up to an EFI version.

I ran K&N's on my kadrons, and home-made foam covers on the sand. I never had a problem.

You've also been in my Baja when I had the 1916 with twin 44IDF's on stockton, so you know how something with more power goes.

no news as yes.....slight complications.....no engine in the baja at the moment:bounce

hey baja wes, what yr models/ vehicle would u be looking at for a carbi subi engine? They just as easy to maintain? Wouldn't an engine swap like that require alot more work with trying to fit it in, mount it, and then wouldn't u have to get engineerin approval or something?

I gotta get a motor eventually too, so am keeping a close eye on this thread.

My mates got a 2.8 ltr cressida V6 EFI (multi pt. injection) up for grabs, engine and tranny beaut (is auto though), but the body is rott. think its a good engine donor?

[ Edited on 4/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]

I'm not horizontally opposed to a water pumper and now I have read it properly a NA'ed subi would be a good alternative. If I was a purist I wouldn't drive a baja. I'd own a trakka - purpose built. Plumbing and adapter plated have well and truly been pioneered so they are not breaking new ground buy doing the conversion. Of course Subaru is a bulletproof alternative which is the reliability - depending on where its sourced.

Like the pun - thought of it myself on my lonesone. The wife didn't get it. :duh

I guess now I'm informed I should make some phone calls and make sure I get what I pay for. I think reputation is the best way to gague good workmanship. I might even look into getting the trans serviced while the engine is away and out. I really like to swap over to an auto box (for many reasons people don't seem to follow me on) but that is just far to much hassle. For now I just want to get back on the road and do that stuff to a second project when I have far more time and resources available.

a good person to speak to would be Matt in Rocky;
http://www.offroadvw.net/buggyboyz/QLD/mattthompson/Mattsupasports.htm

You'd be looking for an EA81 or EA82 engine.

EA81's ran from 80-89 (maybe only to 84/85 in Aus?) so there is a lot of them out there, and they are all carby (expect for the MPFI Turbo version). ~73HP I think.

A step up would be the carbed EA82 `85-87 - smaller model run so harder to find. They made a bit more power ~88HP. There are many EFI version as they ran from 85-94. Then you can change to the EA82 turbo later when your bored.

I think the EA81 is pushrod and the EA82 is OHC. So if you don't like timing belts then EA81 would be the simplest.

I reckon an EA81 (reco), adaptor and 2nd hand radiator would be cheaper than a reco 1776.

Yes you would need approval, but that would be very simple with such a low spec engine transplant.

EA81 were pushrod so slightly slimmer to fit in engine bay. not really an issue in a baja though.

Gordon loves his EA81's, he's collected quite a few and a few adaptors too. He's run them in his Baja Kombi, Baja Bug, Convertible.........

😁 - Yeah - But what about the Tranny Guys.

What 73 & 88hp is twice as much as I already have so what needs to be done to stop the spring from snapping in the guts of it all.
Swapping to a waterpumper is all well and good with me but then (i could) end up with a great motor and NRMA looking at the tranny 10 hours from home at Minnie Waters.

Suggestions...

a 1776 VW motor should have similar torque and HP as the EA81 as they are a similar size motor. So the tranny doesn't really come into the engine selection equation.

What gearbox are you running again?

The things I broke with my swingaxles is spider gears and a reverse gear. Spiders gears need a superdiff to fix which is relatively expensive. Better to just get the stock diff rebuilt (mine probably dies as the spider gears weren't shimmed with the correct preload and could slap around). Then drive sensibly.

Stock IRS trannies don't seem to break the spider gears as much. I think because the CV's and axles take the shock loads out, and hittinh the wheel side on doesn't try to push the diff out the other side of the gearbox like with a swingaxle.

I think a stock IRS would be fine, and a stock swinger in good condition driven sensibly would also be fine.

The auto would be a lot of work and doesn't seem to like the big tyres. A guy in the club has a manx with an auto and a 1600, and it can't reverse on most surfaces cos the gearing is too tall.

Pajeros are everywhere for $5-$8K

Trannys break when they are shock loaded by people flogging their cars hard due to a lack of grunt. Run a 1916 (as several have said, costs aren't much more than a smaller engine; bore/case machining costs are the same whether 1776 or 1916) with a single carb (standard Kadrons don't like steep inclines) and torquey cam and you will have lots of torque, won't need to drive like a dickhead (plenty of those at Stockton, huh!) and not break your trans and you'll retain aircooled simplicity



[ Edited on 6-4-2006 by VWCOOL ]

I have been running an EA81 since I built the buggy about 4 years ago. I have had to change one engone since then, but that was my fault.....

I flog the crap out of my buggy, and have not broken a gearbox yet (touch wood) and am just running an IRS box from an L bug!

When it came to deciding an engine, I chose the suby because they are everywhere (you can buy them for $500), compared to the VW, also the bit of extra power to turn the bigger wheels

With this pic you can see the water pipes running down each side of the bidy, just under the guards

Obviously though you cannot do that with your water pipes, being a BAJA but Andy (vwrallycar) has his radiator mounted where the spare tyres used to be with the water pipes running though the car on top of the floor.
I have raced with him in the car, and they dont get in our way, and the car runs cool with this setup

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=43725&page=1

Just because you dont want to go fast,doesnt mean you dont need extra power:P

Uh - The arguements either way are so good...

I am a fairly reserved driver. Never been a speed freak and rarely hammer my car. I generally like putting around watching (photographing) everyone else launching their cars and getting out of the bog. There was that one time I remember when, actually I'd rather forget that.

I guess I have to come to a decision. I need to get something done, probably before rego. I doubt an engineer will pass it with the oil dripping out of it. Weeping around valves and such is generally fine but actual dripping won't get passed I reckon.

Better to do the mechanics, and tranny is need be when not registered I guess. I would really like to test driving over winter before the heat hits again. I want to venture further afield closer tot the end of the year. I want to make both Qld and Vic events as well as the NSW opportunities.

Thanks everyone for the input thus far. Definately enough here to think about. I will post again with how I'm going and what I've decided and am working towards. The wife is sort-of-supportive on the pretext that the Forester sells for what were asking. The extra we have paid off of that can go towards the Baja. No rego (and motor) till that sells. Hopefully soon 😵‍💫

Baja Wes wrote:The auto would be a lot of work and doesn't seem to like the big tyres. A guy in the club has a manx with an auto and a 1600, and it can't reverse on most surfaces cos the gearing is too tall.

Col found out what the problem was with not being able to reverse with the auto, and it was the engine.......it was incorrectly built and only had a compression ratio of 5:1, dont sure how they cocked it up , but whoever built it didnt do a very good job. So when you've got an engine that couldnt pull the skin off a rice pudding, its little wonder it wouldnt reverse with big tyres. Now the engine has some grunt, its fine backing up.

thanks for the update Graham. It must go a bit better now with a normal compression ratio.

As people have probably seen in other posts, I'd like to run an auto. A bit of work involved that I am not prepared to do at the moment.