I've been thinking about the iminent future... interested to hear peoples opinions, knowledge on whats going on
Ok.... so given that oil is running out, and hybrid cars are starting to appear.... common sense suggests that there will be some alternative fuel that will be able to used in most current engines....
.....Hydrogen and biodeisel seem to be the forerunners.... yet the engine mods for to use these fuels are extensive...........
So whats going to happen to our VW's?...are they gonna become novelty collectors bits, like a pennyfarthing bike, or will they live on?
h ·
they should go to being electric like the craze was in the seventies..
bajachris88 ·
rumour has it there was a document on the net, stating that people got a vw engine to run on 100% ethanol.
Not sure if there were any mods though.
probably good investment to have ur own little can field in ur backyard 😂
Its a worry about whats to happen, but those oil companies, if they have commonsense, would realise they are to close down their billion dollar businesses when oil runs out, so they are already most likely looking into many alternate fuels they can produce to keep their organisations alive.
DOUBLECAB ·
Nuthing to worry about mate.....she'l be right mate....mate I know is working on a converter device right now..............mate he's got it nearly down pat....whats called a wind converter... mate mate it makes all VWs run on wind......just has to work out how to collect all the wind/hot air produced on sites like this all over the planet......mate it will be huge ......mate I can't wait.....hope you can (wait) mate because........it will be a long wait mate:P:P
bajachris88 ·
does it involve those big sails in your avartar 😂
[ Edited on 23/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]
66deluxe ·
Ethanol made from hemp cause hemp has the highest cellulose count out of all plants, cellulose is what is used to make alcohol/ethanol thats why hemp is illegal cause those big petrochemical crybabies just had to have it their way and that is why the world is f*%$ed greenhouse effect global warming. I love driving hate what we put in the tank, ethanol also runs cooler and has more bang but fuel consumption increases, but we make enough plant waste every year (sugarcane) that supply will be enough for demand. Now to run a VW engine on ethanol all one has to do is increase the CR to 13:1 and advance the timing to 12-32 total. Thats what they do in brazil and have been for years with no dramas. I hate the people that run this world, i wish we could all stop driving for a week and then see them shit themselves. Fight the Power. Cheers Damo.
amazeer ·
and get a bigger tank.
shaihulud ·
Hydrogen is a good idea, but whenever it is discussed no-one ever answers the obvious question. Where will we get the hydrogen from? The answer at the moment is from oil or gas, so we will still need to use fossil fuels.
To get hydrogen out of water uses too much energy, so there is no point in doing that.
Strictly speaking water is not H2O it is H(OH). Water is not hydrogen oxide (H2O), it is hydrogen hydroxyl or the hydroxyl of hydrogen [H(OH)]. The hydroxyl bond with hydrogen is one of the strongest known, which is why it takes so much energy to separate the two and why water is almost everywhere and can do so many amazing things.
Also hydrogen and oxygen combine explosively, so it would be super scary to have a process in a car where water is split into hydrogen and oxygen, which are then recombined to run an engine or fuel cell. Therefore the oxygen would be vented to atmosphere and the hydrogen would be used to run the vehicle, either in a fuel cell or to run an engine.
Technically its possible to run vehicles on hydrogen and it would be an excellent way to do it, but what must never be forgotten is, where will we get the hydrogen from?
Starbug ·
what happens when all the oil runs out?
well, first little georgie bush has a cry to himself and a whinge to his daddy and then all of a sudden the middle east wont be worth fighting for.
pete wood ·
I wouldn't worry, oil won't run out during our lifetime, or our childrens. By then VW will be over 100 years old and probably legislated off our roads or way too expensive for the average Joe to afford anymore. In the mean time, we have plently of repair parts and a huge aftermarket, so enjoy it, but don't take it for granted. 😉
Doug Sweetman ·
ooooohhh..... maybe I shouldnt make a post in this one...... I work for *"THE ENEMY"* ..... one of those money grabbing multinational supermajor oil companies..... BP. Admittedly, we are the cleanest, greenest super major, but I guess that doesnt mean anything to alot of people.
Okay, I'll answer the first question, then I'll have a go at some of the other misunderstandings that have been mentioned in this thread.
#1 - The oil will never run out (current estimates are about 40 years, and have been 40 years for about 15 years.....). And it certainly wont ever run out in our lifetimes. What will happen is that it will get steadily more expensive (ie 2001 oil price US $27 / bbl for brent (standard pricing crude oil), 2006 brent is now about $71 / bbl). As the oil gets more expensive, two things will happen.
1 - All the hard to recover oil will slowly become more and more economic to recover - its not simply a matter of drill a hole in the ground and voila, texas tea.... many oil reservoirs are discovered, tested, and then abandoned becuase it would cost more than the oil is worth to recover from the ground. As oil gets more expensive, these will be reassessed and revisited because they will become profitable.
2 - As oil gets more expensive, the alternative fuels will become economical also. Evidence of this - E10 ethanol blend has been for sale in Qld for 3 years, and Oz wide trials are beginning soon. BP has made a committment to pursue biofuels in australia, and this is aligned with BP global also. Ones to watch out for are Ethanol blends, Biodiesel, Gas to liquids (ie make petrol from LNG), LPG / LNG powerd cars, Solids to liquids (ie make petrol from coal), oil shales and oil sands (Alaska already has massive oil sands operations).
Okay other myths about the petroleum industry;
1 - We are here as a service to humanity. No, we exist purely to make a return for our shareholders. As a shareholder of BP, this makes me happy. We just happen to make a product that everybody has taken for granted will exist forever at easily affordable prices. True, oil companies should not price gouge, and I'm that that does happen to an extent in Australia (weekly / fortnightly retail price cycles for one have no justifiable cause), however that arm of our business is run by Marketing, and I dont really know alot about it at all.
2 - We produce enough vegetable waste to make enough ethanol to run the worlds cars. Wrong. We produce nowhere near enough - evidence of this is in Australia the small amount of ethanol used in fuel blends has affected the sugar industry to the point that sugar prices are rising. We will need to utilise our existing biomass very well and also will eventually need to crop more just for fuels (I believe).
3 - You can run a standard Auto engine on 100% ethanol without any *major* modifications. Partially true (as evidenced by the fact a top Alcohol drag engine is not massively different to a conventionally fuelled one) - changes required are to jet sizes / injection rates (needs to be much much more fuel delivered), compression ratio (as mentioned before, needs to be very high) and also many of the seals in things like carbies, fuel lines, o rings etc need to be changed to ethanol resistant products, as they will swell in ethanol service.
Personally, I think electric cars are the way to go. The only issue then is how to recharge them ? hydrogen fuel cells require hydrogen - currently this is either produced by electrolysis (which requires mobs of electricty, usually generated by coal fuelled power stations) or as a by product from refining of crude oil. Solar cells are a great idea, but we would need to make lots of them at a price lower than they are available right now (by the way, who else knew that BP is the second largest producer of solar cells in the world ?).
Its really a very big issue - to break the worlds reliance on oil and petroleum byproducts (plastics, nylon and synthetic fibres, waxes, the rubber in your tyres and a million and one other things) will / would require a massive change to everybody's lifestyle. Unfortunately, its a challenge that is going to be slowly pressed on the world over the next hundred or so years, so it will be interesting to see how we respond as a species.
bond ·
isnt australia said to have something like 75% of the worlds uranium stores?
might be time to invest?
:P
nick
helbus ·
When the oil runs out, the oil light comes on, then you top it up or *BANG* goes the motor. 🙂
bajachris88 ·
Lol, i've seen the affects of running a vw engine without oil, not pretty.
Wasn't my engine either :P, poor 1500 sp....
later spent the arvo shooting a cardboard shape of the kid who blew it up with a beebee gun, Lol. the kid even shot himself. The death of that bush basher was a shame....
DOUBLECAB ·
Doug Sweetman wrote:ooooohhh..... maybe I shouldnt make a post in this one...... I work for *"THE ENEMY"* ..... one of those money grabbing multinational supermajor oil companies..... BP. Admittedly, we are the cleanest, greenest super major, but I guess that doesnt mean anything to alot of people.
Okay, I'll answer the first question, then I'll have a go at some of the other misunderstandings that have been mentioned in this thread.
#1 - The oil will never run out (current estimates are about 40 years, and have been 40 years for about 15 years.....). And it certainly wont ever run out in our lifetimes. What will happen is that it will get steadily more expensive (ie 2001 oil price US $27 / bbl for brent (standard pricing crude oil), 2006 brent is now about $71 / bbl). As the oil gets more expensive, two things will happen.
1 - All the hard to recover oil will slowly become more and more economic to recover - its not simply a matter of drill a hole in the ground and voila, texas tea.... many oil reservoirs are discovered, tested, and then abandoned becuase it would cost more than the oil is worth to recover from the ground. As oil gets more expensive, these will be reassessed and revisited because they will become profitable.
2 - As oil gets more expensive, the alternative fuels will become economical also. Evidence of this - E10 ethanol blend has been for sale in Qld for 3 years, and Oz wide trials are beginning soon. BP has made a committment to pursue biofuels in australia, and this is aligned with BP global also. Ones to watch out for are Ethanol blends, Biodiesel, Gas to liquids (ie make petrol from LNG), LPG / LNG powerd cars, Solids to liquids (ie make petrol from coal), oil shales and oil sands (Alaska already has massive oil sands operations).
Okay other myths about the petroleum industry;
1 - We are here as a service to humanity. No, we exist purely to make a return for our shareholders. As a shareholder of BP, this makes me happy. We just happen to make a product that everybody has taken for granted will exist forever at easily affordable prices. True, oil companies should not price gouge, and I'm that that does happen to an extent in Australia (weekly / fortnightly retail price cycles for one have no justifiable cause), however that arm of our business is run by Marketing, and I dont really know alot about it at all.
2 - We produce enough vegetable waste to make enough ethanol to run the worlds cars. Wrong. We produce nowhere near enough - evidence of this is in Australia the small amount of ethanol used in fuel blends has affected the sugar industry to the point that sugar prices are rising. We will need to utilise our existing biomass very well and also will eventually need to crop more just for fuels (I believe).
3 - You can run a standard Auto engine on 100% ethanol without any *major* modifications. Partially true (as evidenced by the fact a top Alcohol drag engine is not massively different to a conventionally fuelled one) - changes required are to jet sizes / injection rates (needs to be much much more fuel delivered), compression ratio (as mentioned before, needs to be very high) and also many of the seals in things like carbies, fuel lines, o rings etc need to be changed to ethanol resistant products, as they will swell in ethanol service.
Personally, I think electric cars are the way to go. The only issue then is how to recharge them ? hydrogen fuel cells require hydrogen - currently this is either produced by electrolysis (which requires mobs of electricty, usually generated by coal fuelled power stations) or as a by product from refining of crude oil. Solar cells are a great idea, but we would need to make lots of them at a price lower than they are available right now (by the way, who else knew that BP is the second largest producer of solar cells in the world ?).
Its really a very big issue - to break the worlds reliance on oil and petroleum byproducts (plastics, nylon and synthetic fibres, waxes, the rubber in your tyres and a million and one other things) will / would require a massive change to everybody's lifestyle. Unfortunately, its a challenge that is going to be slowly pressed on the world over the next hundred or so years, so it will be interesting to see how we respond as a species.
Hi Doug.....just curious.....you say U work for BP....claim to know 'considerable' about fuels, nothing about about issues of pricing because that's run by 'marketing' yet quite consistently in the above you sound like somebody 'exactly' in the marketing dept of BP by telling us of all the 'good things' BP is doing.......or by chance are you in the PR dept which most would say is the same as marketing.😏
On a different tangent but still the same issue.......like to comment on the consistent stories that have surfaced every so often over numerous decades that the oil companies have bought up a shit load of 'technologies' that were discovered that would have made the oil/carbon technologies obselete..........commonly refered to as 'suppressed technologies' in some circles!:alien
Doug Sweetman ·
I work for BP as a Mechanical Engineer, have been at the Kwinana refinery in WA for 5 years, worked in maintenance for 3 years, spent a year building a new Diesel Hydrotreater unit (HYD3), and am now working on a shutdown for our RCU (Residue Cracking Unit).
I'm not in PR. I'm not in Marketing. I have, however, been asked approximately 27 million times "Why is petrol so expensive ?" or "Why is Diesel more expensive than Petrol when you dont have to do as much to refine it ?". I know enough about fuels and how they are made to talk most issues anybody on here would like to - and am quite happy to - U2U, email, post or whatever.
I'm no company clone - we do heaps of great stuff, but BP also owns Amoco..... anyone remember the Amoco Cadiz oil spill ? yeah, same company, so we arent perfect by any stretch.
As for the suppressed technologies - yeah, I've heard the stories, and to be honest, my personal opinion is that alot of them are probably true. Dont know which oil companies, and when, but it does seem that as soon as a promising new technology pops up, it often vanishes just as quick....
Keep in mind too that its not neccessarily the so called supermajors (Exxon, Shell, BP, Texaco etc in order of size) that are guilty of that too - many of the state owned oil companies, especially in the middle east have significantly greater turnover and profit than we do, money being the driver of all evil in this world, thats a big driver to buy and suppress new technologies. A conspiracy theory you might enjoy 🙂
If you wanna talk pricing..... well, OK, but I cant guarantee everything I say there is accurate - as I said, I'm just a mechanical engineer, I definetely dont work in the marketing and retail department.
Doug
Baja Wes ·
Us mechanical engineers are always trying to delivery the people what they want and keep an eye on sustainability, health, safety, the environment and the community.
The conspiracy theorists that are against large industrial companies obviously don't know anything about those companies or what they try to do. It's easy to blindly point fingers, but difficult to come up with viable solutions or alternatives to the worlds current problems.
Don't worry about what will happen when we run out of oil. The mechanical engineers will come up with something before then...
Doug Sweetman ·
LOL..... nice one Wes.
bajachris88 ·
its just a worry whether the alternative will be implemented before or after the Poo hits the fan. Usually it is a case when it comes to government, like for roads for instance, they only fix em, when the condition or 'need for upgrade' hits the fan. Organisations tend to be more prepared as it depends upon their future profits and share holders. So i wouldn't be to concerned about petrol companies not looking at alternatives. I'm sure they are just as concerned about finding another alternative product before their current profitable produce runs out. Question is when. For profit and money reasons, they will likely put it off, and off and off, till the price rockets off to pluto, bringing in nutty amounts of $$$.
What would happen i guess, an organisation will stand up and will take the opportunity to introduce and sell a cheap alternative at a cheap cost compared to the fuel prices that are to come, to attract the majority of the buyers in the market with a cheaper price for the new fuel. Then all other fuel companies would have to follow and sell cheaper alternate fuels to catch up with them and their profits.
My real concern is, we shouldn't just be worried about cars here. What about all our other dependencies upon fossil fuels. Especially when it comes to electricity. be a while yet before these resources are extringuished, as most say, but its inevitable it will happen some time. Hopefully things don't turn into mad max II. Despite the fun looking dub rail buggies in that (noticed a VW chassis when on crashed and went flying in the air. lol)
the dependence on oil is insane. petrol, kerosen, lubes, plastic, waxes... Jumbos, trucks,powerstations, cars, and tupperware parties would all be screwed.
[ Edited on 24/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]
[ Edited on 24/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]
bond ·
tupperware and lubes??? hehe
now that sounds insane!
nick
Doug Sweetman ·
I can live without my car, but not my Tupperware and Lubes !!!! god save us.....
🙂
ancientbugger ·
Just go to John Sherman on the Gold Coast and buy an Electric motor to VW gearbox adaptor (I'm almost sure he would have one!) and a bloody huge battery tray:thumb
waltermitty ·
Doug WHY? is diesel more expensive? Mitchell
Doug Sweetman ·
Because. :P
The explanation I have been given can be distilled from a long winded speech down to two things;
1). Supply and Demand - there is a huge demand for diesel in Australia, and especially in places like Europe, this is only increasing.
2). Impact on import parity prices of Euopean and US climates and demand. In a market like Australia, where we make fuel, its only logical to sell it for a price that is about 1c / L cheaper than you can import the fuel from anywhere else (usually Singapore) for. This price is called the import parity price. As a result, our prices are set via what the fuel is selling for in Singapore, and those prices are set basically by supply and demand in the US and Europe. Demand in the US and Europe is heavily influenced by weather factors that we dont see in most of Oz (ie being snowed out for days at a time).
Does that help ?
shaihulud ·
In the 1950s an American oil engineer, whose name escapes me, said that when half of the total amount of oil known to exist has been used, the price of oil would go sky high.
That's the situation now. That China and India have come on stream and are making such demands for oil and gas is coincidental.
If another Middle East size oil deposit was discovered it would delay the fateful day of no oil left by only about 30 years.
What will happen when the oil runs out? I believe that it will be cornered by governments so that they can continue to run the world their way with them being the only people to have access to energy which will give them the ability to bully us who will not have access to it. I will be long gone when that time arises.
When in the 1960s we discovered the amount of gas that Australia has I said that we should stop importing oil, and run this country on gas and use the small amount of oil that we have to supply us with lubricants and plastics.
The response was. "What would you know, boy?" Well I was right wasn't I? Maybe it's time for Australia to stand on its hind legs and tell the world to piss off because we're alright when it comes to energy supply.
HAH!!!!! AS IF!!!!!!
amazeer ·
LOL this could turn into a 'Ask Doctor Doug' thread. I am interested in ethanol and alcohol. Why? Because I can modify a 36hp to run on it and nobody will know the difference. If I whack an electric motor in there, I'm pretty sure even someone who discovered VW's yesterday will be able to see something aint right. The only drawback I see is added wear in the bottom end due to the CR.
SO here are the questions....
#1 Lets say my very precisely tuned VW 36er is running stoichiometricly (is that the word?), how much MORE fuel am I going to need if I drop ethanol or alcohol in it.
#2 The 10% ethanol blends here... how much more fule do I need for that? I'm guessing that the 1 or 2 cents a litre cheaper isnt going to cover it.
#3 When Petrol goes up 10 cents per litre, 10% ethanol fuels should only go up 9 cents shouldnt it? If that is the case why isnt the gap between the price of ethanol laced and 'pure' petrol increasing each time theres a price rise.
#4 Why is it that the petrol price rises when there is a price increase in crude oil. Surely the price shouldnt increase until the tanker docks in Kurnel (or Kwinana) gets refined, loaded onto a truck and delievered to my local servo. ONLY THEN should the price go up, unless I am mistaken. All oil companies are rorting us.
#5 When servos were illicitely lacing fuel with ethanol, they were doing it because it wasnt taxed like petrol. Is that still the case?
Sorry, the majority are price driven, but you just gotta get the questions off your chest and out there huh ❗
PS I'm sure you and Wes are smart guys but if we're relying on people like the mechanical engineers I worked with at BHP to save us then I might just start saving up for a 40 foot mast to attach to my roof. And an electric fan to blow into it on still days. 😂
bajachris88 ·
*stoichiometrically, good old 100% ideal reaction efficiency. Can't believe i remember that from yr 12 chem, it has no relavence to me, Lol.
Certainly is a very good word to use at parties. Makes people confused. 😉 :P
Pretty surprised no one has suggested the flintstones method yet. Hehe
[ Edited on 24/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]
Volkswagenboy ·
No oil? I'll be dead by then,
and my Dub's will be in the 'Staggers Museum of Automobiles'
-Staggers.
Baja Wes ·
PS I'm sure you and Wes are smart guys but if we're relying on people like the mechanical engineers I worked with at BHP to save us then I might just start saving up for a 40 foot mast to attach to my roof. And an electric fan to blow into it on still days. 😂
There's two main types of mechanical engineers;
(1) those that do it as a degree without really knowing what it is, getting a job as an engineer still without really knowing what it's about, and then discovering they can do a night business course at Uni and become upper management 🙂
(2) Those that do mechanical engineering cos they love it. They love the problem solving, and they are very good at it. They take the worlds (clients most of the time) problems serious enough to find the solutions.
I like to think I am group (2) 😀
Trust me, the engineers will figure out solutions for everything, that's what we do.
Right now it isn't urgent enough to bother looking too much though, some of us like to leave things to the last minute 😀
bajachris88 ·
I rekon your car is enough evidence of mechanical engineering passion!!
We're counting on you Wes.:thumb
no pressure.... Lol.
Scarlet ·
bajachris88 wrote:Pretty surprised no one has suggested the flintstones method yet. Hehe
[ Edited on 24/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]
I could have sworn my old 59 beetles headlights were being beamed by two tiny pterydacyils holding candles, when running on 6volt:P
BTW....pretty lively bunch of ANZAC cookies on this group... liikidaaahlot
so what happens next?...... does the oil $$$ market squeeeze, while the oil companies conspire and keep the technology to themselves until the last minute for the sake of control of their market?..... Its hard to imagine an extreme situation (not that war on Iraq for oil aint extreme) where everyone has to take extreme measures.... western civilisation is too dependant, and maintains too much market control (I think) to ALLOW it to happen.... so the alternative fuel situation maintains a muddy future while the market hangs on...
Its like we are being cornered no matter what the rhetoric from both sides suggests.... i.e. everyone agrees that we don't wont to give up our fuel....which hopefully drives the solution.... says me in optimistic puppy terms:P
Trust me, the engineers will figure out solutions for everything, that's what we do.
And bless your oily cotton socks !!!!
[ Edited on 24-4-2006 by Scarlet ]
DOUBLECAB ·
Beam me up Scotty........................:P
DOUBLECAB ·
Baja Wes wrote:[
Trust me, the engineers will figure out solutions for everything, that's what we do.
:o Yeah.....right .....reminds me of....."Trust me I am a politician!":jesus
OHHHHHHHHHH btw ..wasn't Openheimer some type of 'engineer' as well?????????????
And there I go but with the grace of God.......
.....but who would trust a Pogue......? or a Pope?
Methinks I'll go to Alice's Restuarant where U can get it all :thumb
:kiss
Baja Wes ·
:o Yeah.....right .....reminds me of....."Trust me I am a politician!":jesus
Well I don't see the conspiracy theorists and general pessimists coming up with any bright idea's, so until you do your in the hands of those that are qualified to sort out the problems.
:vader
:P
dubbill ·
wes any chance of engineers comming up with an "efficient" combustion engine in the near future
old mates air pumper at melb markets seems to be the go for me:thumb
dubbill ·
humans did without oil b4 and they will again we are just soo much softer now
Baja Wes ·
dubbill wrote:wes any chance of engineers comming up with an "efficient" combustion engine in the near future
Probably, but noise is inefficiency too, and we like our engines to sound cool 😀
toplessbug ·
"Well I don't see the conspiracy theorists and general pessimists coming up with any bright idea's, so until you do your in the hands of those that are qualified to sort out the problems. "
GOD HELP US
MickH ·
toplessbug wrote:GOD HELP US
WHO????:alien
Boozer ·
dubbill wrote:wes any chance of engineers comming up with an "efficient" combustion engine in the near future
old mates air pumper at melb markets seems to be the go for me:thumb
search "quasiturbine" engines. Very interesting. Epecially the continous combustion idea. It's like a improved rotary.
toplessbug ·
US--------------the poor down trodden ,those whose lives are totally dependant upon the god like creatures masquerading throught the civilised world as engineers, without whom nobody could function nor find a solution to life's daily problems..
let us all kneel before the hallowed and give thanks to those exhaulted beings::puke
DOUBLECAB ·
Baja Wes wrote:
:o Yeah.....right .....reminds me of....."Trust me I am a politician!":jesus
Well I don't see the conspiracy theorists and general pessimists coming up with any bright idea's, so until you do your in the hands of those that are qualified to sort out the problems.
:vader
:P
"so until you do your in the hands of those that are qualified to sort out the problems."
.....Yep nothing like a bit of self exhaltation:P:P:P...... as for ....'QUALIFIED'.....as I see it....you guys just experiment like everybody else..........like everybody paid to do a job, you 'solve' a problem within a cost efective parameter........kindly note though thats not your fault....just the constraints you have to work with in, in order to survive on the planet in the time alloted to U.
"Well I don't see the conspiracy theorists and general pessimists coming up with any bright idea's"......You dont or wont?.................well ponder on this for 30 para secs..... when the ' conspiracy theorists ' say that alternate tecnology is being suppressed (and U have agreed that this could seriously be the case) and should be utilised/made available for us NOW..........'isnt that just a bit of a "bright idea"??
As for the 'pessimists'.......how would you negate ......"A optimist is a wanker that hasn't got or has ignored all the facts...?"
:vade
Baja Wes ·
no matter how hard you try to show sarcasm on an internet forum, even with emoticons, there's always people that think your serious :duh
😂😂😂
as for the pessimist vs optimist thing...
A pessimist thinks the glass is half empty
An optimist thinks the glass is half full
An engineer thinks the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
😁
Scarlet ·
aggressively put DOUBLECAB, true enough.... I would add though......Its easy to be right in principal, and then dangerous to be self righteous.... being alternative I think also means making strong positive choices.... being open and realistic with what we got, and being inclusive of it all, not a victim........ rejecting and developing conspiracy theories only breeds paranoia......
fight ignorance the smart way
it is all a mess, but count me in!
the revolution is only a t-shirt away........ Billy Bragg
[ Edited on 24-4-2006 by Scarlet ]
DOUBLECAB ·
Baja Wes wrote:Us mechanical engineers are always trying to delivery the people what they want and keep an eye on sustainability, health, safety, the environment and the community.
The conspiracy theorists that are against large industrial companies obviously don't know anything about those companies or what they try to do. It's easy to blindly point fingers, but difficult to come up with viable solutions or alternatives to the worlds current problems.
Don't worry about what will happen when we run out of oil. The mechanical engineers will come up with something before then...
SO WHERE IS THAT SMILEY/EMOTICON.........methinks the corner/hole U are in is a little deeper than U thought.....:vader
[ Edited on 24/4/2006 by DOUBLECAB ]
[ Edited on 24/4/2006 by DOUBLECAB ]
Baja Wes ·
The first part of that I was serious, the second part I didn't think required an emoticon because I didn't think it needed it. Doug didn't think it needed it either.
99% of the people know what I meant, the other 1% I don't give a sh*t about :P
and remember...
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win your still retarded.
😂
Doug Sweetman ·
heh heh heh... nothing like the price of fuel or politics to get ppl fired up. God help us when you have both. Oh, crap, I mentioned God, thats religion too !!!!! arrghhh.
So, I've been away for a few hours and a few questions seriously asked need answering (thanks Amazer);
1) I believe (I dont know though I could find out if you need to know) that to run pure ethanol the figure is something like 200% of equivalent petrol consumption. Thats just a ball park, dont quote me on that please.
2) E10 shouldnt be a huge amount different in consumption than straight ULP. Figure in the 5 - 10% range I guess.
3) Yes, and no, the price gap should track logically like that, but its far more likely to be a case of E10 = ULP - 8c sort of arrangment - very similar to the way that Ultimate is priced.
4). Dont know about the tax implications of biofuels, but one thing you can guarantee is that the Govt of the day wont miss out on tax $$$.
I much prefer the 'all praise the engineers' post than the ' you're digging a hole' post. Shows the sense of humour that you need to get by in this high priced world 🙂
DOUBLECAB ·
Baja Wes wrote:The first part of that I was serious, the second part I didn't think required an emoticon because I didn't think it needed it.
:P Yep clear as mud.
Doug didn't think it needed it either.
:o Can't recall Doug backing U up on that....but besides, what has Doug got to do with what you have to say?
99% of the people know what I meant, the other 1% I don't give a sh*t about :P
:o And I thought 99+% took the thread seriously once Doug put his '2cents' in..... but hey thats only my opinion...but after reading the postings I would be interested in knowing how U came to the conclusion that 99% of the people 'knew what U meant' ?
and remember...
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win your still retarded.
:o Oh ..is that a fact or just another 99% opinion of yours?
bajachris88 ·
Baja Wes wrote:...
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win your still retarded.
😂
That is classic!!! 😂
[applause]
Anywho, maybe some constructive criticism would be the go for all us here.
Unless your all in a mad panic.
Engineers today have been the ones to develope so many helpful useful items, like pace makers, many other medical marvels, possibly the breast implant and other inventions useful to greatly assisting humankind.
maybe a large vw club around here could do their own little investigations with alternate fuels if everyone puts in a dime. Play with flammable chemicals in the shopping centres and other places that appear relatively cheap. Perhaps chemicals like metho, not sure how much that costs, but if cheap, then yeah.
I dunno. But this crazy criticism is going no where in this thread. Why can't we all be friends ?
:bounce
[ Edited on 24/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]
last celtic warrior ·
The only good (productive, useful) engineer is one that thinks he's brilliant. The old FIGJAM philosophy. If he didn't think his own ideas were better than everyone elses, he wouldn't do anything about them.
That said... leaving our problems to people that are qualified to deal with them won't help much. Qualification doesn't mean enthusiasm. There are far more "unqualified" people doing good with what they know than there are qualified ones.
On the original topic, there are an amazing number of alternatives to smelly old petrol. I'm working on a few myself. Wood gasifiers have more to offer than they're given credit for, especially with a bit of innovation and refinement. And the old internal combustion engine has a few more useful years left in it, with some rethinking of the basic design (of most). Another thing I'm working on.
My father has just built a jet turbine motor out of an old truck turbo, simply for the hell of it, but I'm not about to suggest we all go to jet powered cars, this thing is not the most fuel efficient motor I've seen, not by a long shot. But she is better on the gas than most home builts (I did help with the combustion chamber design after all).
Baja Wes ·
yes, back to the original topic.
I'll let people know the key words they should be looking for on the net is "peak oil". There is much debate as to whether we have reached peak oil or not.
Peak oil is basically when we pass the half-way point. Oil reserves start off easy to get the oil out of the ground. There is heaps of pressure at the start, and then that pressure drops and you have to pump it out.
Some very high ranking oil industry figures have come out and said we have reached peaked oil, others say they don't know what they talking about. The problem is there is no definitive data on what the oil reserves in the world are like, because most of them are in the middle east and they are secretive and wouldn't tell you whether they had heaps or were about to run out.
And because of our increase in oil usage over the years, the last half will last a much shorter time than the first half. So if the first half lasted 120yrs, the last half will only last 30yrs. And the last half will get steadily more expensive.
If you want to read more there are heaps of websites out there. Some predictions are more apocoliptic than others. like this one predicting blackouts rather soon;
And if we do start running out that quickly, how we power our vehicles will be the least of our worries.
[ Edited on 25-4-2006 by Baja Wes ]
koolkarmakombi ·
we should go nuclear.
(nomex undies on my head)
I think the waste from fossil fuel is as dangerous as nuclear waste, its just a lot less concentrated. Just dont cheap out on the production.
Enough power to build a death star! :vader
bajachris88 ·
nuclear involves the use of fission to create heat, to pressurise water vapour to turn turbines. Just like the old steam engines, except greater heat. Huge safety measures would need to be taken, you could imagine how drastic i crash could be. radioactive crap flying everywhere, taking thousands to millions of yrs to disappear, and the pressurised steam would just pressure cook everyone in the car. It may be heavily armoured, but remember Murphy's law.
Cheapest alternative for everyone would be to find another fuel, which would allow everyone to use the technology, well most of that, that we already ahve today.
StenGuns ·
BioDiesel
Naturally grown Oils eg: Palm Oil
Anthiron ·
i saw a doco once on an inner city bus which was being trialed running on hydrogen.
it effectively ran on extracting the hydrogen from water if my memory serves correctly?
ancientbugger ·
Makes you wonder though how far the steam engine would have developed had the internal combustion engine not been invented?
bajachris88 ·
Yeah. it would be interesting.
IF you use hydrogen, when it combusts, mixing back with oxygen, it becomes H20 again, IE: back into water where the hydrogen can be obtained via electrolysis.
The only problem is (That i foresee), it requires a HELL of alot of electrical energy to separate ALOT of hydrogen and oxygen gas from water, even with an electrolyte in the water to assist. Question is, where do we get this energy then to separate the hydrogen fuel from water?
Hence why, if you focus on fuels obtained from organic, renewable resources, like ethanol or biofuel, it uses the sun's energy to grow those plants. Rather than energy from power stations or electricity or wateva. IE ethanol from sugar cane, with sugars inside grown with the energy of the sun, then fermented with yeast.
This makes it easier. You could try useing hte sun's energy to obtain hydrogen, but you most likely be using solar power cells. best to leave it up to renewable nature, for ease.
I dunno, i'm an architectural student, not a chemical engineer. Hehe.
[ Edited on 25/4/2006 by bajachris88 ]
Volkswagenboy ·
Scarlet wrote:what happens when the oil runs out?
Your motor overheats and seizes!
:P
-Staggers.
PrettyBlueBug ·
Maybe a silly question, but can VeeDubs be converted to run on gas?
bajachris88 ·
heard it been done before.
LPG very cheap per litre. But apparently with engines, they chew up that fuel quicker. IE: fuel consumption increased, price decreased.
with standard fuel: fuel consumption usual, price increased. Kinda level out, a bit. But LPG's prices are WAY cheaper.
Volkswagenboy ·
I think the Mexican Beeltes had factory option gas.
-Staggers.
Best use (ahem, only use hopefully one day) for genetically engineered crops... they use soybean oil, and "can be manufactured from vegetable oils, animal fats, or recycled restaurant greases."
'I'll have quarter pounder meal thanks'...
'would you like a tank of lard gas with that sir?'
:o
heres a link to an U.S. dept of energy site... lotta data here
Scarlet wrote:aggressively put DOUBLECAB, true enough.... I would add though......Its easy to be right in principal, and then dangerous to be self righteous.... being alternative I think also means making strong positive choices.... being open and realistic with what we got, and being inclusive of it all, not a victim........ rejecting and developing conspiracy theories only breeds paranoia......
fight ignorance the smart way
it is all a mess, but count me in!
the revolution is only a t-shirt away........ Billy Bragg
[ Edited on 24-4-2006 by Scarlet ]
And Im just the man to make you that T-shirt!! 😀
DOUBLECAB ·
Notice everybody still has the fixation for the old 'carbon fuel technology'.......anybody on this site ever come across the 'magnetic propulsion theories".........like think outside of the preconditioned square you are in and ponder why the earth 'hangs up there' and rotates in a vacum?
:alien
MickH ·
DOUBLECAB wrote:Notice everybody still has the fixation for the old 'carbon fuel technology'.......anybody on this site ever come across the 'magnetic propulsion theories".........like think outside of the preconditioned square you are in and ponder why the earth 'hangs up there' and rotates in a vacum?
:alien
This has been metioned on this site some time ago,with a link to the magnet motor at CUQ???? Cant remember exactly,but somewhere in QLD...Looked the goods....
shaihulud ·
Ah! DC. Why does the earth rotate? Now we are getting Reichian. According to them Orgone Energy pulls the earth around.
There is a link to where the page USED to be..for some reason it's now gone??? Maybe some geek can explain why the links bring up something different????:jesus:o
Baja Wes ·
maybe cos it was proven to be false 🙂
did anyone see the episode of myth busters where they tested a heap of the weird alternative "free energy" devices, and couldn't get any to work?
nuclear power is one of our best options at the moment, it just has a bad public perception.
DOUBLECAB ·
shaihulud wrote:Ah! DC. Why does the earth rotate? Now we are getting Reichian. According to them Orgone Energy pulls the earth around.
There is a link to where the page USED to be..for some reason it's now gone??? Maybe some geek can explain why the links bring up something different????:jesus:o
:P:P....Or maybe Doug can tell us if BP bought them out and silenced them?.............with bucks of course.....and a non disclosure clause for 99 years......pst pst is there a conspiracy in the house.:alien
DOUBLECAB ·
:P:P..Lets get paranoid for a moment........
Baja Wes wrote:maybe cos it was proven to be false 🙂
:o....Yep thats a maybe.....but maybe not...just suppressed......will we ever know??:alien
did anyone see the episode of myth busters where they tested a heap of the weird alternative "free energy" devices, and couldn't get any to work?
:o Nope.......but still paranoid......how do we know that was not a predetermined outcome??:alien
nuclear power is one of our best options at the moment, it just has a bad public perception.
:o Still paranoid:P......but have to agree with U on that one as far as electricity production is concerned.:thumb
.....now where did I put my prozac......mumble ..mumble:jesus
I know it uses a conventional engine to reach a walking pace, but then forward propulsion using magnetic energy takes over and there is NO rolling resistance. This appeals to me. Of course two vehicles passing too close could quickly spin around and attach themselves to each other...
Another alternative is the bicycle...
[ Edited on 25-4-2006 by Oasis ]
shaihulud ·
Some years ago I read in a car magazine an critique of the then new Ford Cortina which had a column shift mechanism for its 4 speed gear box, which was described as "a complicated way to do a simple job badly."
I consider nuclear power to be exactly that. A complicated way to do a simple job badly.
There is only enough uranium for about 50 years supply, nuclear fuel is difficult to mine, and to make, power stations are stunningly expensive and complex to make and they are equally as difficult and expensive to run and decommission, the fuel lasts only a few years, the dangerous residues and wastes last for millions of years and terrorists are tempted by the possibilities of nuclear explosions and contamination.
I repeat. It's a complicated way to do a simple job badly.
DOUBLECAB ·
As I see it....it boils down to who's argument one wants to believe because lets face it .....they all have a 'barrow to push'....and everybody puts up a 'mostly' edited argument......ie. compare this with yours....
"The Benefits of Nuclear Power
Summary
The audited environmental product statement of the Vattenfall Energy utility shows that their Nuclear Power Plants emit less than one hundreth the Greenhouse Gases of Coal or Gas fired power stations. If the Nuclear Power Industry lives up to it's promises for modern, 3rd generation plants, the total levelised cost of Nuclear Power including contruction, operational, waste disposal and decommissioning costs is in the range 3 - 5 cents per KiloWatt-Hour depending on the interest rate obtained for the construction. Nuclear Power plants pay back the energy required to build them in less than 2 months of operation. Current world proven reserves of Uranium are sufficient to supply current world demand for 50 years. Speculative reserves provide an additional 150 years of supply. The cost of Uranium Ore is a very small fraction of the operating costs of Nuclear Power. Fourth Generation Nuclear Plants can fully utilize all the energy in Natural Uranium. There is sufficient Uranium and Thorium on Earth for Fourth Generation reactors to supply the total World demand for energy for hundreds of centuries.
Greenhouse Emissions of Nuclear Power
There is world-wide concern over the prospect of Global Warming primarily caused by the emission of Carbon Dioxide gas (CO2) from the burning of fossil fuels. Although the processes of running a Nuclear Power plant generates no CO2, some CO2 emissions arise from the construction of the plant, the mining of the Uranium, the enrichment of the Uranium, its conversion into Nuclear Fuel, its final disposal and the final plant decommissioning. The amount of CO2 generated by these secondary processes primarily depends on the method used to enrich the Uranium (the gaseous diffusion enrichment process uses about 50 times more electricity than the gaseous centrifuge method) and the source of electricity used for the enrichment process. It has been the subject of some controversy. To estimate the total CO2 emissions from Nuclear Power we take the work of the Swedish Energy Utility, Vattenfall, which produces electricity via Nuclear, Hydro, Coal, Gas, Solar Cell, Peat and Wind energy sources and has produced credited Environment Product Declarations for all these processes.
Vattenfall finds that averaged over the entire lifecycle of their Nuclear Plant including Uranium mining, milling, enrichment, plant construction, operating, decommissioning and waste disposal, the total amount CO2 emitted per KW-Hr of electricity produced is 3.3 grams per KW-Hr of produced power. Vattenfall measures its CO2 output from Natural Gas to be 400 grams per KW-Hr and from coal to be 700 grams per KW-Hr. Thus nuclear power generated by Vattenfall, which may constitute World's best practice, emits less than one hundredth the CO2 of Fossil-Fuel based generation. In fact Vattenfall finds its Nuclear Plants to emit less CO2 than any of its other energy production mechanisms including Hydro, Wind, Solar and Biomass although all of these processes emit much less than fossil fuel generation of electricity. "
😏:alien
Doug Sweetman ·
All right, as DC and the conspiracy theorists have taken over, and the thread has gone away from the oil industry, I'm out of this one now.
Anyone want to carry on a sensible discussion about the oil industry ? or got any questions, let me know. I'm not qualified or inclined to talk magnetic levitation, or why the earth 'hangs up' in a vacuum.......
bajachris88 ·
who wants to create an alternate fuel buisness with me 😂
A group of people (AKA board), need to pin up these pros and cons and see/compare/contrast the positives and negatives of each, in relation to cost, environmental effect, production ease etc, and see which one rules best.
Has any organisation prepared any documents that discuss and critique alot of suggested alternatives?
DOUBLECAB ·
Doug Sweetman wrote:All right, as DC and the conspiracy theorists have taken over, and the thread has gone away from the oil industry, I'm out of this one now.
Anyone want to carry on a sensible discussion about the oil industry ? or got any questions, let me know. I'm not qualified or inclined to talk magnetic levitation, or why the earth 'hangs up' in a vacuum.......
:o Not taken 'over' just offering the consumer 'other' options/opinions besides the much lauded oil company derivatives of 'unleaded.....ULP or Optimax'.:alien
Btw Doug...I am sure U have noticed that most threads on this site head off in various tangents and to date this thread has been lucky that Helbus and the 'only bum & tittie' brigade hasn't invaded.:P:P (oops Helbus....couldn't help myself)😏
Also kindly let us know what the 'parameters of a sensible discussion about the oil industry are' and we will decide whether we are in agreeance with your terms of reference before we proceed.😏
Cheers:beer
h ·
bajachris88 wrote:
Baja Wes wrote:...
Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win your still retarded.
😂
That is classic!!! 😂
[applause]
i totally agree with that.. funny stuff.. haha :P
Oasis ·
I thought the topic was "What happens when the oil runs out?" To me that means every fuel option except oil. I of course think that finding out the truth about oil reserves and oil company policy is important and relevant to the topic, but so is everyone's suggestions on alternative fuels. Let's keep this going...
sinecure ·
Why has no-one brought up fusion in the arguments about 'nuclear' power? The Tokamak reactor projects in Japan and France will have a HUGE impact on cheap power production. Fusion will be the large-scale power of the future, and like all technologies, will eventually scale down in size and complexity.
OK, it's extremely dangerous, but if it works properly its ALMOST free energy, and it's very clean.
DOUBLECAB ·
Oasis wrote:I thought the topic was "What happens when the oil runs out?" To me that means every fuel option except oil. I of course think that finding out the truth about oil reserves and oil company policy is important and relevant to the topic, but so is everyone's suggestions on alternative fuels. Let's keep this going...
Exactly....hear..hear:thumb
Doug Sweetman ·
Dont get me wrong guys, I'm not trying to say there arent alternatives. I'm just saying that the oil will never 'run out'. It'll just get too expensive for you and I to buy.
Having said that, its a long way away and I would expect to see more and more private companies springing up to promote their alternative fuels and engine technologies.
And DC, just remember that you cannot be forced to sell a patent. All these supposed 'suppressed technologies' have presumably been patented by the inventor and then sold. Its not like four big burly guys in black suits with dark glasses and little BP logos rocked up and 'suggested' they sell their technology.....
StenGuns ·
I had a dabble with solar energy a few years ago.. Still have a working concept that is a ball tearer.. My point is BP Solar are at the forefront of solar technology.. The money they have invested is huge.. Big users are Scandanavian countries.. This is for electricity generation though so I guess not relevant.. Sorry
DOUBLECAB ·
Doug Sweetman wrote:And DC, just remember that you cannot be forced to sell a patent. All these supposed 'suppressed technologies' have presumably been patented by the inventor and then sold. Its not like four big burly guys in black suits with dark glasses and little BP logos rocked up and 'suggested' they sell their technology.....
:P:P Bugger me ......shit...I keep forgetting we live in a world where everybody looks after everbody else, tells no lies and works for the betterment of mankind.
Yep its never like anybody was ever made a non-monetery offer they couldn't refuse.........but just for the betterment of mankind of course.😏
baybuscamperkid ·
Oasis wrote:I know it uses a conventional engine to reach a walking pace, but then forward propulsion using magnetic energy takes over and there is NO rolling resistance. This appeals to me. Of course two vehicles passing too close could quickly spin around and attach themselves to each other...
Another alternative is the bicycle...
[ Edited on 25-4-2006 by Oasis ]
i also imagine stopping/turngint etc would be difficult with lo friction from the ground, and unfortunately there is always wind resistance etc unless your magnetic track is inside a vacuum
koolkarmakombi ·
Just like you dont get sued by patent farmers for infringing their idea. :jesus
This so did, still does and will always happen. I know of a patent seller that was offered a buyout price or a legal complications bill. He sold, 'cause the speculative investments companies are all about reputation and retribution with legal finesse.
There is whole bunches of law devoted to this. Its like copyright.
The sale or 'license' is heavily assisted with speculative legal negotiations costing a motza to defend.
Sorry dude, they do wear black suits, stripy ties and Ive seen one wearing braces. Dick Cheney shot one. Thems called Lawyers.
kkk :beer
Doug Sweetman wrote:And DC, just remember that you cannot be forced to sell a patent. All these supposed 'suppressed technologies' have presumably been patented by the inventor and then sold. Its not like four big burly guys in black suits with dark glasses and little BP logos rocked up and 'suggested' they sell their technology.....
Doug Sweetman ·
See ? Conspiracy theorists abound......
Its too hard for people to understand that there currently is no workable, economic alternative. Much easier for everybody to bash the oil companies, and then whinge about how expensive fuel is.
Of course its expensive - we have to pay for all the lawyers and patents for all these 'alternative technologies', not to mention the thugs ..... thugs dont come cheap these days.......
I just tried to give you an unbiased view from the inside of the petroleum industry. But thats OK. I can understand that from the outside it doesnt seem as simple as it is from my side.
Personally I liked the idea of a compressed air powered 2 seater car that I saw in a renewable energy magazine a year or so ago - it was produced in spain, had about ~ 200km range and the only byproduct of the engine was air conditioning..... combine that with a renewable energy driven (ie solar / wind) compressor at home and a decent sized air reservoir and it could potentially work as a zero carbon content transport system.
Doug Sweetman ·
Have a geezer at this site - its not the first one I was thinking of, but very similar and more recent.
Oh yeah, and I looked real real hard but couldnt find which oil company owned the technology........ perhaps its none of 'us' ?
aggri1 ·
Yeah fusion's intereseting, but it's proving to be tricky to make it work. The little issue of how to contain a plasma which is hotter than the surface of the sun. Trying to get out more energy than is required to maintain the magnetic fields, very hard. And of course sustaining such a reaction - adding extra fuel. Nice idea, good luck fella's. I'd love to get into that field one day (I'm working for Oil now! Offshore Australia).
The Earth isn't hanging, it's just continuously falling towards the sun without getting any closer (in terms of energy, obviously; we do get a bit closer during our summers and a bit further away during our winters, we're on an ellipse you know). And the moon's spiralling away from us at about 3cm per year, robbing us (the Earth) of angular momentum and hence days are getting longer. May sound whacko, but it's true: you can download the NASA JPL ephemeris from their web site, and it goes back a few thousand years. So there!
I also don't see oil 'running out', but we won't be able to afford it long before it becomes very scarce. For instance, small oil fields are being developed now that weren't profitable before (like the one in Bass Strait known as Basker-Manta, known in the early eighties). This can continue for a long time. Many times now the gas that is produced (some sort of hydrocarbon, not sure what, chemically), is re-injected into the well to assist in pumping out the remaining oil. Later, that gas may become financially viable to extract, then we go back and get it. So it'll be a while before it's all gone, but it'll get prohibitively expensive before that. Even ivory hasn't 'run out'.
Hehe, how's that cold fusion coming along? Now that IS a whacko idea. Anyone got some quantum tunneling catalysts handy? Bit of a finite probability modifier?🤓
Cheers, A.
sinecure ·
The Mayan culture calculated the length of the 'day' (the time it takes for the Earth to perform one full rotation) to be 23.22 hours using a set of mathematical equations and a technique not fully understood by todays scientists, but proven beyond doubt to be accurate. These equations are between three and four thousand years old.
Modern mathematicians calculate the day as 23.24 hours. This is evidence in itself of the lengthening of the day.
High temperature superconductors (above 0 Kelvin, -273 C) are in existence and functioning. Work on a quatum based containment field is ongoing with effective experiments proving quantum transportation through entanglement being a real possibility with respect to the generation of a stable quantum field, and therefore being able to utilise zero-point energy particle interaction effects for "unlimited" power "production".
Even traditional physics states that the very nature of potential quantum particle transitions will result in the "creation" of a massive amount of energy. Fair enough, it's understood nature precludes collection or use of this energy AT THIS POINT IN TIME. Science as a study of the big Why? is progressing at a rate unimaginable to the scientists of 100 years ago, and in it's very nature is exponential. Who's to say what we think is "impossible" today isn't just one seemingly innocuous, accidental or random discovery away tomorrow?
And besides, oil won't run out. Anyone who thinks oil is the result of the breakdown of ancient forest materials should do the math involved with this concept. There has never existed in the history of the planet enough vegetation to have supplied the amount of oil we have already removed from the ground.
I think my soapbox is straining a little so I shall simply say:
Ya'aa'tey (it is good)
Mick.
Oasis ·
StenGuns wrote:I had a dabble with solar energy a few years ago.. Still have a working concept that is a ball tearer.. My point is BP Solar are at the forefront of solar technology.. The money they have invested is huge.. Big users are Scandanavian countries.. This is for electricity generation though so I guess not relevant.. Sorry
Unless of course we use electric cars and generate our own power to run them.... I love the Scandinavian use of wind for energy. Check this out...
Oasis ·
I should have said that this is in Denmark as I left mainland Europe heading North for Norway. There are thousands of these up there, and I remember reading that 25% of Denmark's electricity comes from wind power, and 35% by 2015
sinecure wrote:And besides, oil won't run out. Anyone who thinks oil is the result of the breakdown of ancient forest materials should do the math involved with this concept. There has never existed in the history of the planet enough vegetation to have supplied the amount of oil we have already removed from the ground.
Well sinecure seeing U put that on the table for us to ponder on.....here's another concept/theory to ponder on in relation to your input.......
"When Rampa published his first two books in the 1950s, few people believed that sudden and cataclysmic forces had shaped the Earth's past. Immanuel Velikovsky, a scientist who tried to prove that major upheavals have occurred regularly throughout the Earth's history, was vilified by the establishment, which tried to ban his books Worlds in Collision and Earth in Upheaval. He was also one of the first scientists to warn us of dangers from comets and asteroids, for they had struck our planet in the past. Velikovsky was the first scientist to hypothesise that Venus would be boiling hot and that Jupiter would possess a huge magnetic field. Both he and Rampa believed that the Earth had once been impacted by another planet which had emptied its petroleum oceans into our planet's crust."
:alien
sinecure ·
Many scientists believe that the earth's moon (the largest satellite by planet/moon mass ratio comparison of ANY planet known) is the left over rock from a massive "glancing blow" impact. The proving of such an incredibly ancient event is the problem.
Still, if the shoe fits....
Ich fahre ein Kdf ein Tag ·
Fuel and all the talk about no more oil is rather depressing. The oil wont run out because no oil company is going to go out of business, what is more likely is a conflicts or war so limited oil is refined so price goes up. Like Doug has said before the oil companies have to make a bigger profit or make some sort of step forward each year or whatever peroid to keep investors happy. So price will always go up. Alternative energies will be taxed by the government and are. There is a fuel excise on making ethanol too. So which ever way you look at it oil is getting more expensive.
If we could work out a way to get a car to get a million miles to the gallon without telling anyone we would be right! 👍 my 2cs.
H
Schmoburger ·
sinecure wrote:Why has no-one brought up fusion in the arguments about 'nuclear' power? The Tokamak reactor projects in Japan and France will have a HUGE impact on cheap power production. Fusion will be the large-scale power of the future, and like all technologies, will eventually scale down in size and complexity.
OK, it's extremely dangerous, but if it works properly its ALMOST free energy, and it's very clean.
I was under the impression that fusion power was almost completely safe, far safer than current nuclear fission powerplants.... just damn expensive and a pain in the ass to get it to work. 🙂
sinecure ·
Fusion is "safe" in that it doesn't produce toxic by-products (as in spent fission fuel rods). However, a fusion reaction could potentially, if it breaks through containment, cause the Earth and much, if not all, of the solar system to be 'consumed' as fuel for the reaction.
That certainly would suck.
Volkswagenboy ·
Hey that's awsome! They should try it one-day!
-Staggers.
bajachris88 ·
yeah, anyone watch spider man 2 ?
akean1 had a great idea about a kid powered dub! 😂
DOUBLECAB ·
Volkswagenboy1 wrote:Hey that's awsome! They should try it one-day!
-Staggers.
Yep...know the feeling.....some mornings after, one just needs a little kick start.🙄
Volkswagenboy ·
Haha!
-Staggers.
aggri1 ·
sinecure wrote:However, a fusion reaction could potentially, if it breaks through containment, cause the Earth and much, if not all, of the solar system to be 'consumed' as fuel for the reaction.
That certainly would suck.
What the ****? Where on Earth (or elsewhere) do you get that from? You must be takin' the mickey right? :P There's no way that'd happen. Not with gravity being what it currently is, or the Strong force what it currently is...
Actually, during the Manhattan Project, someone did raise the possibility of the Earth becoming involved in the reaction and being destroyed. Someone clever figured that that wouldn't happen.
The only reason the sun happily 'burns' away is that it's got like a massive heap more gravitational 'pressure' holding everything in. Earth hasn't got enough. But funny idea!
I guess a hypothetical exploding fusion plant could make a decent hole though, but no more so than a nuke. And, there'd be less radioactive crap in the dust cloud. Some, but less.
A.
DOUBLECAB ·
Bugger....looks like Volkswagenboy 1 and I don't get to have our day in the sun........😏
bajachris88 ·
since when did nuclear bombs make holes?
Mick knows his sh!73. Smart dude.
[ Edited on 1/5/2006 by bajachris88 ]
Volkswagenboy ·
Dang, no tan for me this winter!
-Staggers.
bajachris88 ·
hehe, nuclear winter?
bus914 ·
before easily accessible oil runs out, it will become so expensive to fill up that stock 1200s will become popular, and alternate energy sources will then become viable.🤓
sinecure ·
"Actually, during the Manhattan Project, someone did raise the possibility of the Earth becoming involved in the reaction and being destroyed."
Actually, no. The possibility of the Earths' atmosphere being ignited was bandied around by some of the Manhattan team.
"Not with gravity being what it currently is, or the Strong force what it currently is..."
Gravity is the result of the inherent bending effect real particles of matter have on expanding space-time. The nature of gravitational interaction changes depending on the nature of the matter you are dealing with. A singularity at the core of a black hole changes the nature of gravity as it exists around it, as a singularity "lags" behind the rest of space-time because of it's super-compacted and therefore super-heavy mass. The Strong (Nuclear) Force is affected similarly. The quantum universe is not restrained by what we believe to be the stringent laws of physics that control the interaction of real particles, and a zero point energy event should not exist or even be possible with referrence to real particles, yet quantum effect and zero point particle interactions are real. So which part of the universe are you referring to with this statement?
Careful readers will notice the use of the word "potentially" in my diatribe. Also earlier referrence to quantum interaction generated containment fields for fusion. 'As fuel for the reaction' is probably where I wasn't clear. The "potential" damage caused by broken containment would be from the "potential" release of massive zero point energy, caused by quantum transposition of a LOT of matter, rather than the less than likely "possible" self-sustaining fusion reaction. I shall endeavour to be clearer in future.
I was half a dozen Wild Turkey neats in when I wrote my previous post, and reading it now, I recognise how incredibly preachy and arrogant I sound.
I am not involved in the field, I am not educated formally in the field, and I am certainly not an expert in the field, so please forgive the ramblings of a old bloke with a fervent interest in quantum physics, and the underlying nature of 'reality', who enjoys a good academic argument.
DOUBLECAB ·
sinecure wrote:I was half a dozen Wild Turkey neats in when I wrote my previous post, and reading it now, I recognise how incredibly preachy and arrogant I sound.
I am not involved in the field, I am not educated formally in the field, and I am certainly not an expert in the field, so please forgive the ramblings of a old bloke with a fervent interest in quantum physics, and the underlying nature of 'reality', who enjoys a good academic argument.
Suggest U get the keys to BA for an 'academic argument'.....not necessarily on quantum physics.....but I think the forum needs additional rationale discourse.😏
But hey thats only my opinion!:alien
shaihulud ·
Just as a sort of an aside to this topic of "What will happen when the oil runs out". As an avid reader of good sc-fi I recommend that you read The Mote in God's Eye by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. In it they describe the contact between humans and the Moties who were technical wizards who went through several "runnings out of oil/collapses of the environment because of pollution etc.".
Other than that. It's a damn good read.
cram ·
great thread!
before oil runs we'll have too many problems with climate change to worry about. (Australia is now the fourth best contry for making species disappear!) - this of course includes the orange bellied parrot...which is, i'm sure the only reason the wind farms down south didn't do ahead.......hmmm no point saving species if you don't save the habitat (ie the planet)
Sure these "suppressed technologies" are patented but you don't need to prove that your idea works to patent it in the first place. Amazing how all these inventors "dissappear" or "need to sell" their ideas. What a croc. These ideas don't work. Anywone can access patents (after 20 odd years or something) and build the thing for yourself. geez you even do a practical in science class to separate water into oxygen and hydrogen.
the question if where do we get it? there are 2 constants - light energy (from the sun) and wind (earths rotation). The sun powers just about everything in nature (except the deep sea stuff) why not make the most out of it....?
nuclear - just like fossil fuels theres a down side even if things go right - what do you do with the leftovers?
anyway, just because petrol is the "accepted norm" doesn't mean we shouldn't look around for something else (even before it runs out), especially if its a bit nice to the lump of dirt we live on.
Doug Sweetman ·
Well written !!!
And shaihulud...... I've been meaning to read that book for a while. Its been ages since I've read any Larry Niven, loved his ringworld books, great scifi writer.
aggri1 ·
sinecure wrote:"Actually, during the Manhattan Project, someone did raise the possibility of the Earth becoming involved in the reaction and being destroyed."
Actually, no. The possibility of the Earths' atmosphere being ignited was bandied around by some of the Manhattan team.
Oh OK, sorry, I didn't realise that. I read about that some time ago. I guess the atmosphere being ignited amounts to the same thing in the end as far as humans are concerned...?
Interesting stuff isn't it, that quantum physics. The hardest stuff I ever did at uni, shits all over mech eng. Interesting article (catalyst transcript) there Scarlet.
I need to read some more I think. Cheers. A.
sinecure ·
"I guess the atmosphere being ignited amounts to the same thing in the end as far as humans are concerned...?"
Fair point, Aurel 😀.
Geothermal seems to often be left out of these discussions, but I believe New Zealand has had some success with it in harnessing the steam to power electric turbines (the same thing fission nuclear power stations do).
MickH ·
sinecure wrote:"I guess the atmosphere being ignited amounts to the same thing in the end as far as humans are concerned...?"
Fair point, Aurel 😀.
Geothermal seems to often be left out of these discussions, but I believe New Zealand has had some success with it in harnessing the steam to power electric turbines (the same thing fission nuclear power stations do).
Is the Geothermal power station near Brisbane on line yet??
Sure these "suppressed technologies" are patented but you don't need to prove that your idea works to patent it in the first place. Amazing how all these inventors "dissappear" or "need to sell" their ideas. What a croc. These ideas don't work. Anywone can access patents (after 20 odd years or something) and build the thing for yourself. geez you even do a practical in science class to separate water into oxygen and hydrogen.
It is an obviously SIMPLE point, but inspiringly true, and needs to be said....also obvious then that given the market dominates proceedings.... doesnt the idea of suppressed technology sound a bit far fetched.... if it REALLY works and is viable, wouldnt common sense prevail...... like the 10times rule with technology...if it aint 10times better than the existing technology, it wont be taken up by the mass market...
So to entertain the the paranoia... lets say an oil company gets hold of a viable fuel source that works 10times more efficiently, and is abundant and environmentally friendly etc... even with the massive profits they make...surely if they had a hold of such technology, they could not suppress it for fear of SOMEONE ELSE coming up with it....not to mention the huge profits they could make from the initial uptake.... is this naive?
I think its common sense... the answer then to such a fuel source, IS being led by our quantum physicists...the reality though are the market forces....and it just WONT happen until we get that 10times guarantee