karmannghia60 路
For the people running this setup now, what do you think of it? Any major probs?
Aussieveedubbers 路 Tech Talk
1916, what do you think of it?
https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/threads/519/1916-what-do-you-think-of-it
555bug 路
the 1916 in my mates car that we put together early this year is a lovely engine, plenty of good mid range...but it kinda lacks a bit of puff up top as it just used standard heads and kadrons. As it stands I'd guess its a 16sec car with can scare a few cars from the lights, enough power to do a bit of drifting round the corners however after a hard run the dipstick is noticably hotter than a smaller engine, however you can still tollerate the temp, so its still good. Anyway put it this way, I'm not really one for hot dub engines but after playing around with this I've already decided to put together a 2.2 or so for my wifes dub 馃檪 should be fun to see how long it lasts....I've got the case..anyone got a crank?
56astro 路
I've also got one of Stan's (base) 1916s in my Oval. I did a fair bit of ringing around before I made the final decision. His motors were rubbished by other less reputable mechanics, espacially for not being torquey.
My brother took the car for a drive a few months ago (he was a VW mechanic for years) and was extremely impressed with the grunt. 馃榾
Stan's Steroids 1916 definately DO NOT lack top end get up and go. He proved that by numerous trophies in street cars (proper regd ones, not stipped ones with perspex windows and the like).
My brother took the car for a drive a few months ago (he was a VW mechanic for years) and was extremely impressed with the grunt. 馃榾
Stan's Steroids 1916 definately DO NOT lack top end get up and go. He proved that by numerous trophies in street cars (proper regd ones, not stipped ones with perspex windows and the like).
karmannghia60 路
Thanks for the input. Yeah, I heard Stan is the 1916 master but the engine I am look at was built by SKH Motors in Sydney. Anyone know their work?
Bizarre 路
I believe they are OK
Any idea what is inside though -
What cam?
Counter weighted crank?
What compression ratio?
Any idea what is inside though -
What cam?
Counter weighted crank?
What compression ratio?
bus914 路
a lot of "vw specialists" choose to drive water cooled cars (engine swap or otherwise), shows how much faith they have in their work.
long live the pobjoy roid motor.
long live the pobjoy roid motor.
bugmeister 路
I'd think the lack of top end would just be a reflection of the restrictions caused by carbs/heads/exhaust.
My 1915 with 40IDF's, 40x37mm 044s and 1 5/8 exhaust doesn't seem to be too lacking in the top end dept even with a very mild cam -- and that's with 25% leakdown past the rings.
Nice motor though..but not as fast as i'd imagined.
One Q though, has anyone else had bad leakdown results with the 94mm P/Cs. Just wondering whether Berg's comments on them were maybe correct.
My 1915 with 40IDF's, 40x37mm 044s and 1 5/8 exhaust doesn't seem to be too lacking in the top end dept even with a very mild cam -- and that's with 25% leakdown past the rings.
Nice motor though..but not as fast as i'd imagined.
One Q though, has anyone else had bad leakdown results with the 94mm P/Cs. Just wondering whether Berg's comments on them were maybe correct.
Baja Wes 路
well I've had an 1835 (came with the car), a 1776 (replaced the 92's with 90.5's) and a 1915. The 1776 was relatively stock, but excellent value for money. However if I had my time again I would've built it as a relatively stock 1915 instead, but didn't have the money to bore the case for the 94's at the time.
My 1915 now is fairly warm. 044 heads but not yet ported. You can rev it out to 7500, but doesn't make much power over 5500-6000rpm so there is no point. Excellent low down torque with the 44IDF webers. They help smooth out the biggish cam. I like to drive it like a tractor in the traffic, 2000rpm change in each gear, and it's happy.
Virtually no price difference to smaller motors, so I don't see why anyone would build a smaller motor.
However it is not that quick compared to todays cars, especially in the big bulky baja. It was quite quick when it was in an L bug though.
My 1915 now is fairly warm. 044 heads but not yet ported. You can rev it out to 7500, but doesn't make much power over 5500-6000rpm so there is no point. Excellent low down torque with the 44IDF webers. They help smooth out the biggish cam. I like to drive it like a tractor in the traffic, 2000rpm change in each gear, and it's happy.
Virtually no price difference to smaller motors, so I don't see why anyone would build a smaller motor.
However it is not that quick compared to todays cars, especially in the big bulky baja. It was quite quick when it was in an L bug though.
kombi_kid 路
hey
in my bros car he has a 1916. it only runs fairly stock cam doweld flywheel and crankshaft standard heads and kadrons and it pulls pretty good! heaps of low down torque and a top speed of around 160-170 kmp/h doing around 5000rpm!
i couldnt imagine how well it would go if he got some bigger carbies bigger cam and some bigger heads!
aircool'd or die i say!
cheers
rhys
in my bros car he has a 1916. it only runs fairly stock cam doweld flywheel and crankshaft standard heads and kadrons and it pulls pretty good! heaps of low down torque and a top speed of around 160-170 kmp/h doing around 5000rpm!
i couldnt imagine how well it would go if he got some bigger carbies bigger cam and some bigger heads!
aircool'd or die i say!
cheers
rhys
56astro 路
Bugmeister,
If you are talking about when Gene Berg stated that the 94s lost a % of their power potential after so-many hours, I think he must have been on some really good drugs. What he stated was in effect saying that a 1916 had less power than a 1600 after so-many hours. Haven't got his catalogue with me at work to get the exact details, but you get the gist of it.
[Edited on 11-9-2002 by 56astro]
If you are talking about when Gene Berg stated that the 94s lost a % of their power potential after so-many hours, I think he must have been on some really good drugs. What he stated was in effect saying that a 1916 had less power than a 1600 after so-many hours. Haven't got his catalogue with me at work to get the exact details, but you get the gist of it.
[Edited on 11-9-2002 by 56astro]
Che Castro 路
yeah apparently the early 94's weren't so good, those berg tests were taken quite a while back. Things have changed now and 94's can last.
Quickbug 路
I've got a 1916 with kadrons - soon to be upgraded to webbers...
Then want to fit oversized valves and get some porting done.
But after that - saving for a stroker crank....
Cant have too much power.
I wish i had of just fitted a WRX motor but too late now...
One day
Then want to fit oversized valves and get some porting done.
But after that - saving for a stroker crank....
Cant have too much power.
I wish i had of just fitted a WRX motor but too late now...
One day
karmannghia60 路
Never too late Quickbug, sell the 1916 to me and get yourself the WRX 馃槈
Che Castro 路
heh... just screw the 1915 and go Type 4 馃檪
karmannghia60 路
Jon, I thought you have a 1916 in your car & happy with it! Why the change of mind?
Raf
Raf
Che Castro 路
naw i only got a stocker 1600 SP... i would have gone 1915 if i had the extra grand or more for decent carbs and machining.
the 1915 is a great budget motor.
i do dream about putting in a type 4 one day 馃檪
the 1915 is a great budget motor.
i do dream about putting in a type 4 one day 馃檪
Grey 57 路
Whats the best combo for resonable power increase and reliabilty? I have heard bad things about 1835's with head to barrel sealing probs, due to cylinders bieng too thin.
What about 1776cc. This size seems to be used a lot in the yank mags. 馃檪
What about 1776cc. This size seems to be used a lot in the yank mags. 馃檪
Che Castro 路
yeah 1776 is known as long lasting, i think the cylinder wall is same thickness as stock, and there isnt too much material removed from the case/heads.
Grey 57 路
How about power with the 1776. Is there a noticable increase over a 1600 with single carb and extractors.
Assuming the 1776 had the same.
Assuming the 1776 had the same.
56astro 路
Go for the 94's. You know you want them. Go on, just do it.
Che Castro 路
a 1776 has about 200cc's on a 1600, and if u can get webers or dells on it... I do know someone who got 117kw @ the wheels out of a worked 1776
Quickbug 路
How long?Cheap horse power but not for long
I've been absolutely thrashing mine for 2 years with no probs other than i destroyed a generator pulley the other day....
COME AGAINWITH THE KW FROM THE 1776cc?!?!??
Fully worked how?
I'm lucky to put out 76kw atw atm - sure theres plenty of room for improvement but damn thats alot from a 1776...
Che Castro 路
yeah i know... well it was running 044's, had some head work obviously, dual weber IDF's ... He claimed it made that many kw at the wheels...
sounded more like @ the flywheel to me, although he wondered why he was overheating, i noticed his engine bay seals were non-existant, u could see right down onto the ground with the decklid open.
[Edited on 5-10-2002 by Che Castro]
sounded more like @ the flywheel to me, although he wondered why he was overheating, i noticed his engine bay seals were non-existant, u could see right down onto the ground with the decklid open.
[Edited on 5-10-2002 by Che Castro]
OvalGlen 路
Thats Fantastic 1776. Must be on Methanol. Please question him for view of the Dyno card.
Buggy Boyz 路
Man if he can get that at the wheels I would be very very suprissed, I have seen bigger engines fall short of 100kw @ the wheels so a 1776 with some serious work would still be dreaming to make it. I could be wrong but it sound like a tyre kicking story too me.
Che Castro 路
yeah i know... it sounds a lot more plausible for a flywheel measurement, although i am pretty sure he said @ the wheels. Last time i saw him he said he wanted to get a 911 shroud... for a 1776??? 馃檪
Baja Wes 路
Well I have had my 1915 for quite a while. It must be at least 5 years old. It has had a relatively hard life, and it doesn't run hot, hasn't cracked the case and doesn't have an excessive amount of blow-by.
And to think Stan Pobjoy has made hundreds of 1915's, he must have a lot of angry customers with all those cracked case warranty claims he must get.
And to think Stan Pobjoy has made hundreds of 1915's, he must have a lot of angry customers with all those cracked case warranty claims he must get.
fullnoise 路
Stan's motors are the only engines you see in the trading post. His engines are the only ones that last.
Save yourself a lot of trial and error and go with Stan's recommendations exactly.
Stan's cams are brilliant and his combinations are fantastic. His engines certainly go better than the sum of their parts.
John Spinks used to Hillclimb with one of Stan's engines in a mid-engined beetle. He changed to a subaru turbo motor and didn't go any faster. He's since quit hillclimbing.
CYA, CT
Save yourself a lot of trial and error and go with Stan's recommendations exactly.
Stan's cams are brilliant and his combinations are fantastic. His engines certainly go better than the sum of their parts.
John Spinks used to Hillclimb with one of Stan's engines in a mid-engined beetle. He changed to a subaru turbo motor and didn't go any faster. He's since quit hillclimbing.
CYA, CT
fullnoise 路
Hey Ben,
That's not a testimonial. I should know I work in advertising.
I owe Stan nothing.
I just want to pass on some advice. There are a lot of combos that don't work. Like my 44mm valves with Stan's cam (I should have gone for 40 or 42s instead. Like Greg Ward's 48IDFs instead of 44s. John Ladomaris (sp) has a 1915 and has tried heaps of different cams yet he still rate's Stan's as one of the best. He has also run into problems using Street Eliminators (remember Stan recommends 044s). I've tried a US-style turbo muffler. I lost bottom-end compared to Stan's recommendation. Believe it or not I could keep going...
Likewise, you have found your own combination that works.
I am aware of the rivalry between you and Stan. Stan's boys have been racing you in hillclimbs for years. It's only natural that he'll rubbish strokers and you'll rubbish 94s.
Personally I'd like to put one of your cranks with my 94 engine, but what cam would I run???
My advice to the aussieveedubbers is; if you only want to build an engine once go with a proven combination.
CYA, CT:P
That's not a testimonial. I should know I work in advertising.
I owe Stan nothing.
I just want to pass on some advice. There are a lot of combos that don't work. Like my 44mm valves with Stan's cam (I should have gone for 40 or 42s instead. Like Greg Ward's 48IDFs instead of 44s. John Ladomaris (sp) has a 1915 and has tried heaps of different cams yet he still rate's Stan's as one of the best. He has also run into problems using Street Eliminators (remember Stan recommends 044s). I've tried a US-style turbo muffler. I lost bottom-end compared to Stan's recommendation. Believe it or not I could keep going...
Likewise, you have found your own combination that works.
I am aware of the rivalry between you and Stan. Stan's boys have been racing you in hillclimbs for years. It's only natural that he'll rubbish strokers and you'll rubbish 94s.
Personally I'd like to put one of your cranks with my 94 engine, but what cam would I run???
My advice to the aussieveedubbers is; if you only want to build an engine once go with a proven combination.
CYA, CT:P
Che Castro 路
heh i think i probably would opt for 94's anyway because i think i would be bored of it once i had it for 5 years 馃檪
vwrallycar 路
hi ben thats well put. i must agree with you that yes 94's dont last as long as 90.5's. berg has been saying it for years!
the thin wall of the 94 barrel is its downfall, but with all that said i myself am building a 1916!
can someone tell me, is it true the 1916 is a revvy motor and a stoker is more of a torquey motor?
the thin wall of the 94 barrel is its downfall, but with all that said i myself am building a 1916!
can someone tell me, is it true the 1916 is a revvy motor and a stoker is more of a torquey motor?
56astro 路
"94s are thin walled"???
I thought the walls of 94s were the same thickness as std.
As far as overheating goes, your oil temp guage will tell you your oil temp. Does anyone with a 1916 have overheating problems?
If you are considering engine combos, go and talk with those that have a really good reputation within the VW industry.
I thought the walls of 94s were the same thickness as std.
As far as overheating goes, your oil temp guage will tell you your oil temp. Does anyone with a 1916 have overheating problems?
If you are considering engine combos, go and talk with those that have a really good reputation within the VW industry.
Baja Wes 路
whoever says "94's are thin walled" obviously hasn't seen a 94mm cylinder.
My 1915 is definitely not a Pobjoy 1915, so I wouldn't plug his engines.
You'll see more difference in engine life between brands of cylinders, rather than between 94's and 90.5's. Don't buy cylinders unless they are a decent brand (cima/mahle).
My 1915 is definitely not a Pobjoy 1915, so I wouldn't plug his engines.
You'll see more difference in engine life between brands of cylinders, rather than between 94's and 90.5's. Don't buy cylinders unless they are a decent brand (cima/mahle).
gearboxless 路
Out of interest has anyone put there their street trim 1915 on the rolling road? I got 45 depressing KW on the Stafford tune dyno (which could be out). Maybe those 40IDF's with 28mm vents are to blame. This is with 42x37 mildly ported 044s and 1 5/8 merged exhaust.
Baja Wes 路
That's a bit under 80HP at the engine. What sort of heads and cam are you running. fairly standard I would guess.
fullnoise 路
To Ben.
Okay my comments sound like a testimonial - fair enough. I'm not paid to say it. I haven't given Stan more than $1500 worth of business (so I'm not trying to justify a purchase). I'm just impressed with what I've seen.
I'm impressed by what Stan does. I'm impressed after seeing his engines perform. I'm impressed that Greg Ward can drive from Sydney to Queensland, race and drive back to Sydney with one of Stans race engines. I'm impressed that Stan uses a lot of standard parts successfully against the beliefs of the rest of the vw fraternity. I'm impressed that Stan's philosophy makes Berg's teachings (I've read his books) look like a joke. I'm impressed that I can take one of Stan's steroid engines and hose off a Honda S2000 and Porsche Boxter around Wakefield park (that's a time of 1:18.2 seconds for the record).
I've seen you race at hillclimbs. Perhaps I will come to Newcastle and take your car for a drive. Maybe then I'll be impressed by you too.
CYA, CT
Okay my comments sound like a testimonial - fair enough. I'm not paid to say it. I haven't given Stan more than $1500 worth of business (so I'm not trying to justify a purchase). I'm just impressed with what I've seen.
I'm impressed by what Stan does. I'm impressed after seeing his engines perform. I'm impressed that Greg Ward can drive from Sydney to Queensland, race and drive back to Sydney with one of Stans race engines. I'm impressed that Stan uses a lot of standard parts successfully against the beliefs of the rest of the vw fraternity. I'm impressed that Stan's philosophy makes Berg's teachings (I've read his books) look like a joke. I'm impressed that I can take one of Stan's steroid engines and hose off a Honda S2000 and Porsche Boxter around Wakefield park (that's a time of 1:18.2 seconds for the record).
I've seen you race at hillclimbs. Perhaps I will come to Newcastle and take your car for a drive. Maybe then I'll be impressed by you too.
CYA, CT
fullnoise 路
Bugger, another testimonial! Sorry guys.
jakriz 路
G'day Ben,
I was going to update my little 1880cc engine over Xmas with 94's making it 2026cc. I can't really think of a cheaper power up option right now.
I had 92hp at the wheels with Stans 30/70 cam & have now changed to an Engle K-8, I havn't had it back on the dyno but the 1/8th mile time improved from 10.4 to 9.8, alittle difference, but I want more, especially since my superbug weighs 890kg & i have no plans to lighten it as it's a street car & I want to keep it that way. So for more power I'm thinking 94's? My 90.5's have been perfect & spotless when I pulled the heads off last , after 2 years of daily driving & about 12 supersprint days. What else can i do for more power? I was going to have the 94's barrels ceramic coated & another special coating aplied to the pistons them selves to increase longevity & resist heat. Equipped with Total Seal rings I thought they may have a fighting chance. My father Joe who is a Toolmaker & does all the machining for our engines thinks that I am mad changing to 94's, just as a note.
The other option is to change the rockers to the 1.4's which the K-8 is suppose to be running with instead of the 1.25's, & also updating my 45mm Dellortoes with the CB Performance spray bar kit which is suppose to help mid rnge tourqe. I also have the option of 48 ida's but using them on a street car worries me a little as the driveability of my 45 Dells is outstanding.
Suggestions??
regards
Jak
I was going to update my little 1880cc engine over Xmas with 94's making it 2026cc. I can't really think of a cheaper power up option right now.
I had 92hp at the wheels with Stans 30/70 cam & have now changed to an Engle K-8, I havn't had it back on the dyno but the 1/8th mile time improved from 10.4 to 9.8, alittle difference, but I want more, especially since my superbug weighs 890kg & i have no plans to lighten it as it's a street car & I want to keep it that way. So for more power I'm thinking 94's? My 90.5's have been perfect & spotless when I pulled the heads off last , after 2 years of daily driving & about 12 supersprint days. What else can i do for more power? I was going to have the 94's barrels ceramic coated & another special coating aplied to the pistons them selves to increase longevity & resist heat. Equipped with Total Seal rings I thought they may have a fighting chance. My father Joe who is a Toolmaker & does all the machining for our engines thinks that I am mad changing to 94's, just as a note.
The other option is to change the rockers to the 1.4's which the K-8 is suppose to be running with instead of the 1.25's, & also updating my 45mm Dellortoes with the CB Performance spray bar kit which is suppose to help mid rnge tourqe. I also have the option of 48 ida's but using them on a street car worries me a little as the driveability of my 45 Dells is outstanding.
Suggestions??
regards
Jak
jakriz 路
Oh , I also want to beat my mate CT! 馃槈(LOL)
Jak
Jak
70AutoStik 路
An Engle K8 with 1.25s should be approximately equivalent to a 110!
As for the thickness of 94 cyl walls - some people are missing the point. I have a set of 90.5s sitting behind me and I can look at where the stud clearancing cuts into the "cylinder wall" part of the barrel. As I understand it, this is the cause of the "squaring" Berg talked about - anyone with a bit of an understanding of metallurgy will see that such a CSA will push the barrel out of round as the temperatures are raised. Don't get me wrong - I admire Stan and in younger years would have gone straight to him for the "bang-for-bucks" his engines provide - but I'm now more interested in an engine that will be strong on the street for many years (and my financial situation is a little stronger,) so I'm building a stroker. As for those who say they have "many miles" on their 1916s with no problems: I'd love to see some reliable leak-down figures, along with the mileage on the engine. I'm not trying to knock anyone - but Stan, by his own admission, doesn't clock up all that many street miles; so I'd love to see some data (against the piles of negatives) that such an engine can last as long as a stocker (as well built strokers have been known to do.)
As for the thickness of 94 cyl walls - some people are missing the point. I have a set of 90.5s sitting behind me and I can look at where the stud clearancing cuts into the "cylinder wall" part of the barrel. As I understand it, this is the cause of the "squaring" Berg talked about - anyone with a bit of an understanding of metallurgy will see that such a CSA will push the barrel out of round as the temperatures are raised. Don't get me wrong - I admire Stan and in younger years would have gone straight to him for the "bang-for-bucks" his engines provide - but I'm now more interested in an engine that will be strong on the street for many years (and my financial situation is a little stronger,) so I'm building a stroker. As for those who say they have "many miles" on their 1916s with no problems: I'd love to see some reliable leak-down figures, along with the mileage on the engine. I'm not trying to knock anyone - but Stan, by his own admission, doesn't clock up all that many street miles; so I'd love to see some data (against the piles of negatives) that such an engine can last as long as a stocker (as well built strokers have been known to do.)
jakriz 路
Thanks Ben, wouldn't mind coming up. Ct & I are running next Sunday at Eastern Creek & then thats it for the year which gives me heaps of time to play with it over Xmas.
I'll give u a call next week sometime.
As for the lift, I've currently got 500thou with the K-8 & 1.25's, I don't think that a 110 has that much? Hope to have 535thou lift or so with the 1.4's.
regards
Jak
I'll give u a call next week sometime.
As for the lift, I've currently got 500thou with the K-8 & 1.25's, I don't think that a 110 has that much? Hope to have 535thou lift or so with the 1.4's.
regards
Jak
70AutoStik 路
If you measured that, you may have some dodgy rockers. Check your geometry - a K-8 should give .475 with 1.25 lifters, you could destroy your heads in short order if it's that far out. The reason the K-8 equates more to a 110 with 1.25s is that it has gentler ramps in order to drive the (minimum specified) 1.4 rockers.
jakriz 路
The geometry is perfect. No equations or theories , just 500thou lift. 2 years on & still perfect, all the way to 7000rpm daily.
regards
Jak
regards
Jak
Zenjoe 路
I have built radical street 1776s and some built 1916s.
No matter what anyone says, given the same engine setup, the 90.5mm will last longer. But the 94s will last a long time if you are realy carefull about the type case, compression, cooling etc.
If you want a fast car here is the setup that runs really well
94mm pistons and cylinders
counterweighted 8 dowelled crank
webcam 86c cam
cbperformance ultra rods
cbperformance street eliminator heads
weber 48IDA, 48 IDF or Dellorto 45DRLA carbs
Bosche 009 dist.
MSD ignition
With this setup at 9.5:1 Compression, my buddy is running high 13s in the quarter mile, and it is his only car. It is very reliable, and it is going on 3 years with no problems. oh yea, it is pushing out about 170hp at the crank.
No matter what anyone says, given the same engine setup, the 90.5mm will last longer. But the 94s will last a long time if you are realy carefull about the type case, compression, cooling etc.
If you want a fast car here is the setup that runs really well
94mm pistons and cylinders
counterweighted 8 dowelled crank
webcam 86c cam
cbperformance ultra rods
cbperformance street eliminator heads
weber 48IDA, 48 IDF or Dellorto 45DRLA carbs
Bosche 009 dist.
MSD ignition
With this setup at 9.5:1 Compression, my buddy is running high 13s in the quarter mile, and it is his only car. It is very reliable, and it is going on 3 years with no problems. oh yea, it is pushing out about 170hp at the crank.
Baja Wes 路
The 94's are thick where it is needed near the top of the cylinder, as that is where all the heat is.
I find it silly people arguing about whether their 90.5's will last 10 yrs and 94's only 8 years when the cost of the cylinders compared to the cost of an overall race engine is so small. It's trivial in the end.
People on here talk about "berg doesn't like 94's", well he didn't like the compression ratios that people here are running either.
And lets face it not many people here are building race engines. I'm sure poeple who drive normally wouldn't notice an engine life difference between the 94's and the 90.5's.
A pair of rear tyres on my car cost more than a set of 94's so I wouldn't care if I got slightly less life from 94's. I'd rather have the increase in power of a 1915 over a 1776.
It's just my opinion. I just don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with 94's like some people make out. Especially when there are so many good 1915 engined cars out there.
PS - Zenjoe, your car and site are very cool.
[Edited on 12-10-2002 by Baja Wes]
I find it silly people arguing about whether their 90.5's will last 10 yrs and 94's only 8 years when the cost of the cylinders compared to the cost of an overall race engine is so small. It's trivial in the end.
People on here talk about "berg doesn't like 94's", well he didn't like the compression ratios that people here are running either.
And lets face it not many people here are building race engines. I'm sure poeple who drive normally wouldn't notice an engine life difference between the 94's and the 90.5's.
A pair of rear tyres on my car cost more than a set of 94's so I wouldn't care if I got slightly less life from 94's. I'd rather have the increase in power of a 1915 over a 1776.
It's just my opinion. I just don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with 94's like some people make out. Especially when there are so many good 1915 engined cars out there.
PS - Zenjoe, your car and site are very cool.
[Edited on 12-10-2002 by Baja Wes]
Che Castro 路
heh i guess if u want longevity and power just go ... Type 4 :thumb
70AutoStik 路
For the sake of accuracy, Ben; I'm sure you realise that type 3s have greater issues with cooling than type 1s. 94s have been known to last more than 15,00mi before the blow-by probs set in. 馃榾
Baja Wes 路
Ben,
We are all entitled to our opinions, we have both put our opinions forward and now people can make their own decisions.
I had a 1776 with no brand pistons and cyl, and my 1915 with cima P&C, and I had to rering the 1776 well before the 1915 (still haven't yet). Which was my point about it probably depends more on the brand than the size. It could've been a bad set of rings too.
We are all entitled to our opinions, we have both put our opinions forward and now people can make their own decisions.
I had a 1776 with no brand pistons and cyl, and my 1915 with cima P&C, and I had to rering the 1776 well before the 1915 (still haven't yet). Which was my point about it probably depends more on the brand than the size. It could've been a bad set of rings too.
Craig Torrens 路
Maybe I can give some proven facts about 1916cc (94barrels 69stroke) .I currently run a Pobjoy 1916 in Hillclimb in NSW. I started with a base motor with Kadrons and had a ball in 94' and 95' . Stan then built a motor to meet my request in 1996, a HILLCLIMB motor (not Drag) to win the then dominated sport by Jeff Unwin from Hellbug. It is now 2003 and I have achieved the following:
1996 :NSW 1300-2000cc Hillclimb champion
1997 :NSW 1300-2000cc Hillclimb champion
1997:Australian Class Champion
1998: NSW 1300-2000cc Hillclimb champion
1998:Australian Class Champion
1999:NSW 1600-2000cc Hillclimb Champion
1999:Australian Class Champion
2000:NSW 1600-2000cc Hillclimb Champion
2000: Australian Class Champion
2001 DID NOT RACE(BORED,no competition)
2002 :NSW 1600-2000cc Hillclimb champion
During this time I also smashed (and still hold) all of the previous records at :
1:Canberra hillclimb
2:Wakefeild Park hillclimb
3:Amaroo Park Hillclimb
4:Eastern creek Hillclimb
5:Bathurst Hillclimb
6 Bullahdelah Hillclimb
7:Ringwood(Newcastle)both tracks
8:Grafton Hillclimb
9:Tamworth Hillclimb
10:King edward Park long track( Newcastle)
11: Dapto 3J class
I also won the Berg trophy in 99 as well as the Nambucca vw weekend supersprints. I have race against Ben Durie's car for most of this time and have only come second once. Considering his car has been double entered at most events it is fair to say I have won well over 60 times against his car over this period.(Not by tenths but seconds )
I find it hard to believe that an engine builder like Stan that has built well over 1000 documented (full warranty)1916cc and hundreds of other combinations would be wrong !!
Stan has 1916cc in Various forms of AIRCRAFT,TYP3,Kombi's ,Beetle's,trikes and many other VW powered transport. Even the famous SEABUG was powered by a 1916cc.
As for my opinion, well I'm racing this year, anyone care to join me .
Go the 94's:thumb
1996 :NSW 1300-2000cc Hillclimb champion
1997 :NSW 1300-2000cc Hillclimb champion
1997:Australian Class Champion
1998: NSW 1300-2000cc Hillclimb champion
1998:Australian Class Champion
1999:NSW 1600-2000cc Hillclimb Champion
1999:Australian Class Champion
2000:NSW 1600-2000cc Hillclimb Champion
2000: Australian Class Champion
2001 DID NOT RACE(BORED,no competition)
2002 :NSW 1600-2000cc Hillclimb champion
During this time I also smashed (and still hold) all of the previous records at :
1:Canberra hillclimb
2:Wakefeild Park hillclimb
3:Amaroo Park Hillclimb
4:Eastern creek Hillclimb
5:Bathurst Hillclimb
6 Bullahdelah Hillclimb
7:Ringwood(Newcastle)both tracks
8:Grafton Hillclimb
9:Tamworth Hillclimb
10:King edward Park long track( Newcastle)
11: Dapto 3J class
I also won the Berg trophy in 99 as well as the Nambucca vw weekend supersprints. I have race against Ben Durie's car for most of this time and have only come second once. Considering his car has been double entered at most events it is fair to say I have won well over 60 times against his car over this period.(Not by tenths but seconds )
I find it hard to believe that an engine builder like Stan that has built well over 1000 documented (full warranty)1916cc and hundreds of other combinations would be wrong !!
Stan has 1916cc in Various forms of AIRCRAFT,TYP3,Kombi's ,Beetle's,trikes and many other VW powered transport. Even the famous SEABUG was powered by a 1916cc.
As for my opinion, well I'm racing this year, anyone care to join me .
Go the 94's:thumb
56astro 路
Well Craig, you've just solved one querry.
The 1999 Gene Berg Fastest Street Registered VW goes to .......
Craig Torrens - 1916cc - non turboed.
Only 1996 to go now.
BTW
If I have one of Stan's base 1916's does that mean I could be competative at hillclimbs?
Better get a roll cage fitted to the ol' 56 while it's at the panel shop!
The 1999 Gene Berg Fastest Street Registered VW goes to .......
Craig Torrens - 1916cc - non turboed.
Only 1996 to go now.
BTW
If I have one of Stan's base 1916's does that mean I could be competative at hillclimbs?
Better get a roll cage fitted to the ol' 56 while it's at the panel shop!
NigeType3 路
I thought Gene Berg was the man.
Are you telling me that us aussies know better. I'm real interested in this as I realy want to build a 13s motor for my type 3 wagon I was even thinking of a Berg 5 speed box.
Anyone got any advise?馃榾
Are you telling me that us aussies know better. I'm real interested in this as I realy want to build a 13s motor for my type 3 wagon I was even thinking of a Berg 5 speed box.
Anyone got any advise?馃榾
Bizarre 路
I dont think any one in their right mind would put down what Gene had to say. BUT his hey day was in the 60's and 70's.....like 30-40 years ago!NigeType3 wrote:I thought Gene Berg was the man.
Are you telling me that us aussies know better. I'm real interested in this as I realy want to build a 13s motor for my type 3 wagon I was even thinking of a Berg 5 speed box.
Anyone got any advise?馃榾
I have read his stuff and "how to Hot Rod..", and Mr Muir and drunk with Mr Holzl and....... learned a lot!
things change, petrols are REAL different. Heads have changed, cams now have split duration ........
A lot of what Gene said was true.....for then.
GB liked low CR now the go is for higher. People under stand it better and there has been 40 more years or trial and error
Gene was good, but you can now do better. No one is THAT good that it CANT be changed and/or improved! :thumb
amazer 路
The 5 speed is a complete waste of money. Even more so when you have ample power to pull tall gears. Who needs an extra lower gear. Just play around with the ratios of the 4 gears you already have.
56astro 路
Nige Type 3
A 13 sec car you say .....
1996, 1/4 mile, 12.82 @ 102 mph, normally aspirated street registered.
Call either Stan Pobjoy (02 6650 9616) or Peter Richards (02 6565 0067) and that can be arranged.
A 13 sec car you say .....
1996, 1/4 mile, 12.82 @ 102 mph, normally aspirated street registered.
Call either Stan Pobjoy (02 6650 9616) or Peter Richards (02 6565 0067) and that can be arranged.
amazer 路
For histoprical accuracy this is what has happened at Dapto since 1997 (Ben Durie and Grant Cook share the same car)....
1997: (called 2E 1301-2000cc)
1st Craig Torrens 27.46
2nd Grant Cook 28.28
3rd Ben Durie 29.35(only had 2 runs at the hill)
4th some gemini @#$%box 29.95
1998 (still called 2E 1301-2000)
1st Grant Cook 26.67
2nd Craig Torrens26.86
3rd Ben Durie 28.23
1999 (now called 3J 1301-2000)
1st Craig Torrens 27.21
the rest of the class consisted of datsun 1200's and a gemini and were well beaten.
2000 (now called improved production 1600 to 2000cc)
1st Grant Cook 27.86
2nd Ben Durie 28.48
3rd Greg Ward 28.70
4th n 5th Some silly escort with mid to high 29's.
In 2001 Greg was the only competitor in the class and ran 30.24.
I was timekeeper on all these occasions.
The official record is listed as the one from 2000 but I suppose you can say the moral record is 26.67 from 1998. In any case both belong to grant cook.
If anyone is interested I can provide full championship results from the dapto rounds from 1978-1987 and 1997-2001 inclusive.
There was no hillclimb at huntley in 2002 due to track licence dramas.
BTW I have ran a 27.38 there with 94's. yeah OK they are type 4 94's with a turbo behind em but that part I will keep secret.
Re: Craigs boast of beating Jeff Unwin.
In what year did Jo roll the car and they stopped competing????
1997: (called 2E 1301-2000cc)
1st Craig Torrens 27.46
2nd Grant Cook 28.28
3rd Ben Durie 29.35(only had 2 runs at the hill)
4th some gemini @#$%box 29.95
1998 (still called 2E 1301-2000)
1st Grant Cook 26.67
2nd Craig Torrens26.86
3rd Ben Durie 28.23
1999 (now called 3J 1301-2000)
1st Craig Torrens 27.21
the rest of the class consisted of datsun 1200's and a gemini and were well beaten.
2000 (now called improved production 1600 to 2000cc)
1st Grant Cook 27.86
2nd Ben Durie 28.48
3rd Greg Ward 28.70
4th n 5th Some silly escort with mid to high 29's.
In 2001 Greg was the only competitor in the class and ran 30.24.
I was timekeeper on all these occasions.
The official record is listed as the one from 2000 but I suppose you can say the moral record is 26.67 from 1998. In any case both belong to grant cook.
If anyone is interested I can provide full championship results from the dapto rounds from 1978-1987 and 1997-2001 inclusive.
There was no hillclimb at huntley in 2002 due to track licence dramas.
BTW I have ran a 27.38 there with 94's. yeah OK they are type 4 94's with a turbo behind em but that part I will keep secret.
Re: Craigs boast of beating Jeff Unwin.
In what year did Jo roll the car and they stopped competing????
56astro 路
Craig's car beat Ben/Grant's car 3 times.
Ben/Grant's car only beat Craig's car once.
I know who the clear winner is.
Ben/Grant's car only beat Craig's car once.
I know who the clear winner is.
amazer 路
ummm no.
Torrens beat Cook/Durie once.
Torrens beat Cook/Durie once.
Che Castro 路
meh whatever!
i think i will still want to build a 1916 as I dont need it to last me heaps long anyway.
is there enough space to run them on a 10mm stud case?
i think i will still want to build a 1916 as I dont need it to last me heaps long anyway.
is there enough space to run them on a 10mm stud case?
Buggy Boyz 路
I see some like 94 some hate em, some like 90.5's some hate em. I heard nothing but bad stuff about 92's from all sides. Musy have been why I got them so cheap he he guess I should plan on a rebuild in the next few months then ...
No 10 mm studs will not clear with 94's you need to go 8mm studs.
No 10 mm studs will not clear with 94's you need to go 8mm studs.
Buggy Boyz 路
I guess I will see how they go. The engine will not run hot in teh back of my Manx and with the 76 stroke should do it pretty easy.
Buggy Boyz 路
I dunno it didn't have anything on it but the stroke from memory. I know it came from the US if that makes any difference.
Craig Torrens 路
Maybe you need to read my post again, I have listed the "3J record" for Dapto for which I hold.
You will also see I have written " the then dominated sport of Hillclimb by Jeff Unwin", not a boast I have beaten him.
As for Joe rolling the car, I find it strange that a VW business like Hellbug did not rebuild or replace the vehicle(Not that hard when you have a business with all the contacts) and continue to compete in the class, especially when a POBJOY 1916 powered vehicle was breaking all the records. Instead Jeff returned in a WRX(turbo) powered Typ 3 that was not competitive in the class nor could it get close to the times of my car!
I also find it amusing that even though I have dominating the sport for 6 years at a State and National level, holding more than 10 CAMS Class records, that Ben still thinks his one win holds any type of weight . Maybe the "Wiggles" should be singing "WAKE UP BEN"
At the end of the day I do not run a VW business nor do I make any money from the Industry. ANY engine builder could have my money, but they need to prove their product first. I wanted the ONE motor combination to be able to dominate the sport of HILLCLIMB, therefor it had to have a broad rev range and torque and power to handle all track configurations.(tight, long, high speed, low speed,circuit etc) Stan Pobjoy has supplied this motor to achieve the proven result. If I wanted a engine to win Drags then Stan would then supply a motor to suit. If I wanted a VW based AIRCRAFT or GYRO engine then Stan would also have the right combination ! and so on.
As for blowing my doors off in hillclimb, this is my SEVENTH year and I'm still waiting. More than happy for someone to beat me, that is what healthy competition is all about!
Maybe we could go drag racing Ben, although I beat you here as well in 1999 !
For the RECORD: Ben your car posted the time of 8.95 in 1998 not the claimed 8.7?
Happy motor sport to all:thumb
You will also see I have written " the then dominated sport of Hillclimb by Jeff Unwin", not a boast I have beaten him.
As for Joe rolling the car, I find it strange that a VW business like Hellbug did not rebuild or replace the vehicle(Not that hard when you have a business with all the contacts) and continue to compete in the class, especially when a POBJOY 1916 powered vehicle was breaking all the records. Instead Jeff returned in a WRX(turbo) powered Typ 3 that was not competitive in the class nor could it get close to the times of my car!
I also find it amusing that even though I have dominating the sport for 6 years at a State and National level, holding more than 10 CAMS Class records, that Ben still thinks his one win holds any type of weight . Maybe the "Wiggles" should be singing "WAKE UP BEN"
At the end of the day I do not run a VW business nor do I make any money from the Industry. ANY engine builder could have my money, but they need to prove their product first. I wanted the ONE motor combination to be able to dominate the sport of HILLCLIMB, therefor it had to have a broad rev range and torque and power to handle all track configurations.(tight, long, high speed, low speed,circuit etc) Stan Pobjoy has supplied this motor to achieve the proven result. If I wanted a engine to win Drags then Stan would then supply a motor to suit. If I wanted a VW based AIRCRAFT or GYRO engine then Stan would also have the right combination ! and so on.
As for blowing my doors off in hillclimb, this is my SEVENTH year and I'm still waiting. More than happy for someone to beat me, that is what healthy competition is all about!
Maybe we could go drag racing Ben, although I beat you here as well in 1999 !
For the RECORD: Ben your car posted the time of 8.95 in 1998 not the claimed 8.7?
Happy motor sport to all:thumb
KruizinKombi 路
Brad, I thought you were looking at a V6 for the manx?
As for the rest of this thread.... sounds like there's a whole lotta leg-humping going on...
As for the rest of this thread.... sounds like there's a whole lotta leg-humping going on...
Craig Torrens 路
I have a poodle, if anybody wants to borrow him:kiss
amazer 路
This topic is getting rather amusing.
I dont have anything to gain here at all. The only type 1 engine I can see myself owning in the future is a 36 horse! The only allegience I have is to Hellbug which we all know is no longer trading.
I am only pointing out facts. Undeniable ones. You implied you were the one to take the title away from Jeff. Sure you won the title. But as far as I know, not against Jeff/Jo. I dont know why a new beetle wasnt built after the crash. Perhaps there wasnt the time. The WRX notchback I believe came at the right price which allowed Jeff to jump in and do some racing as he was out of the seat for a few years. Your last trip to dapto you did 27.21 yes? I think even I did a 27.41 in the WRX notch. You can believe that you scared him away if you like. His list of credentials is longer than yours. Some on bikes as well.
But all in all when it comes down to it there a hell of a lot more to posting a time than just an engine. If only it was that easy. This little circle can roll around till the cows come home. Put me in either car and I'll probably be a couple of seconds slower. Its the same engine though.
*Putting on my WSCC hat*
You do not hold the record for 2E/3J/improved production/whatever they call it now at Dapto. If you believe you do hold the 3J record then perhaps you should tell me what it is and when it was set because I have no record of it. See above for the what is currently assumed by Wollongong Sporting Car Club.
*taking off the WSCC hat*
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by amazer]
I dont have anything to gain here at all. The only type 1 engine I can see myself owning in the future is a 36 horse! The only allegience I have is to Hellbug which we all know is no longer trading.
I am only pointing out facts. Undeniable ones. You implied you were the one to take the title away from Jeff. Sure you won the title. But as far as I know, not against Jeff/Jo. I dont know why a new beetle wasnt built after the crash. Perhaps there wasnt the time. The WRX notchback I believe came at the right price which allowed Jeff to jump in and do some racing as he was out of the seat for a few years. Your last trip to dapto you did 27.21 yes? I think even I did a 27.41 in the WRX notch. You can believe that you scared him away if you like. His list of credentials is longer than yours. Some on bikes as well.
But all in all when it comes down to it there a hell of a lot more to posting a time than just an engine. If only it was that easy. This little circle can roll around till the cows come home. Put me in either car and I'll probably be a couple of seconds slower. Its the same engine though.
*Putting on my WSCC hat*
You do not hold the record for 2E/3J/improved production/whatever they call it now at Dapto. If you believe you do hold the 3J record then perhaps you should tell me what it is and when it was set because I have no record of it. See above for the what is currently assumed by Wollongong Sporting Car Club.
*taking off the WSCC hat*
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by amazer]
Craig Torrens 路
When CAMS changes the class classification Eg 2E to 3J the record is then held for the class it was set. Grant Cook has posted a faster time than me,I agree, this was done when the class was 2E, I then set the record for 3J (which I posted) and Grant now holds the record for Improved production.This is shown in your post with the time for the classes, pretty easy to see that really?
I have never claimed to be the fastest at Dapto, that is why I said I have come second only once on my original post. As for Jeffs achievements, well done to him, I never said I have acheived more. My original post just replies to the original Question!
Its interesting your point about more than the engine for setting a time. Your exactly right ,it is also the driver /gearbox/suspension etc, so why are we then so set on the Dapto result?Some people think it is a measure for horsepower but you have just corrected that myth ! Thankyou. A track will not measure horsepower ,just car/driver.
My engine is just one peace of the puzzle enabling me to win, without it I would not. The same could be said for everything in my car !
The "ford" vs "Holden" debate has gone on for years, and so will probably this engine debate.
Next topic please, I'm also amused and bored of it.
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by Craig Torrens]
I have never claimed to be the fastest at Dapto, that is why I said I have come second only once on my original post. As for Jeffs achievements, well done to him, I never said I have acheived more. My original post just replies to the original Question!
Its interesting your point about more than the engine for setting a time. Your exactly right ,it is also the driver /gearbox/suspension etc, so why are we then so set on the Dapto result?Some people think it is a measure for horsepower but you have just corrected that myth ! Thankyou. A track will not measure horsepower ,just car/driver.
My engine is just one peace of the puzzle enabling me to win, without it I would not. The same could be said for everything in my car !
The "ford" vs "Holden" debate has gone on for years, and so will probably this engine debate.
Next topic please, I'm also amused and bored of it.
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by Craig Torrens]
amazer 路
Kewel. 4 pages! this is getting as good as the "anyone got a ..." thread from the old forum.
vwrallycar 路
well getting back on the subject here, having just built my 1916 it really is a lovely motor. plenty of power especially from 60MPH on!
still very streetable and smooth too
well worth the experience
still very streetable and smooth too
well worth the experience
56astro 路
And back onto the original topic ........
94mm's and 1916's
Ben
"more power for longer"
Surely you're not suggesting that a 1776 makes more power than a 1916. This is the sort of stuff Berg was proclaiming back in the 60s and 70s, but when he talks of blow-by and power loss he quotes "92mm/94mm sets". He doesn't distinguish between the 2. Where is your evidence that a 1776 makes "more power for longer", all other things being equal. Or are you just referring to the P&C's. Is this merely an attempt to rubbish a competitors product, or is it as you put it "through shear ignorance or for marketing reasons or to justify" your own business.
Geez, how many 1916's must there be out there that are sitting on the side of the road cause they have lost all their power! The proof is in the pudding as they say.
Now, the so-called "fundemental engineering flaws" you mentioned have already been addressed by Wes, and duly dispelled using fact and engineering logic.
Amazer, in 1997 Craig beat both Grant Cook and Ben in Ben's car - Craig's car 2 vs Ben's car nil. In 1998 Grant beat Craig but Craig beat Ben.
This may seem pedantic (& I admit it is to a certain extent) but it shows that the cars are quite even and in some respects it comes down to drivers, but not in all cases.
What I have tried to do is help balance a situation where some people in the Aus VW scene over the years have rubbished one particular engine builder. His cars have been sabotaged at race meetings, his customers cars have been sabotaged by other VW workshops, Pobjoy-powered cars are refused entry to VW shows. The list goes on, but the VW general public don't hear of the hurdles and obstacles that are placed in his way. God, if the truth be known he was probably even dobbed in to the local council for working from home! He has not and would not enter this sort of debate because it is simply not in his character. He is well above that (unlike us of course). But the one statement he can make, and he does it very well, is to build engines using 94s that according to the so-called experts are rubbish, but in actual fact are arguably the best T1 n/a engine in the country.
Have a look at at any drag or race meeting result and have a look at whose cars are the quickest normally aspirated. A good percentage will be you know who's.
Lets not let fiction get in the way of the truth.
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by 56astro]
94mm's and 1916's
Ben
"more power for longer"
Surely you're not suggesting that a 1776 makes more power than a 1916. This is the sort of stuff Berg was proclaiming back in the 60s and 70s, but when he talks of blow-by and power loss he quotes "92mm/94mm sets". He doesn't distinguish between the 2. Where is your evidence that a 1776 makes "more power for longer", all other things being equal. Or are you just referring to the P&C's. Is this merely an attempt to rubbish a competitors product, or is it as you put it "through shear ignorance or for marketing reasons or to justify" your own business.
Geez, how many 1916's must there be out there that are sitting on the side of the road cause they have lost all their power! The proof is in the pudding as they say.
Now, the so-called "fundemental engineering flaws" you mentioned have already been addressed by Wes, and duly dispelled using fact and engineering logic.
Amazer, in 1997 Craig beat both Grant Cook and Ben in Ben's car - Craig's car 2 vs Ben's car nil. In 1998 Grant beat Craig but Craig beat Ben.
This may seem pedantic (& I admit it is to a certain extent) but it shows that the cars are quite even and in some respects it comes down to drivers, but not in all cases.
What I have tried to do is help balance a situation where some people in the Aus VW scene over the years have rubbished one particular engine builder. His cars have been sabotaged at race meetings, his customers cars have been sabotaged by other VW workshops, Pobjoy-powered cars are refused entry to VW shows. The list goes on, but the VW general public don't hear of the hurdles and obstacles that are placed in his way. God, if the truth be known he was probably even dobbed in to the local council for working from home! He has not and would not enter this sort of debate because it is simply not in his character. He is well above that (unlike us of course). But the one statement he can make, and he does it very well, is to build engines using 94s that according to the so-called experts are rubbish, but in actual fact are arguably the best T1 n/a engine in the country.
Have a look at at any drag or race meeting result and have a look at whose cars are the quickest normally aspirated. A good percentage will be you know who's.
Lets not let fiction get in the way of the truth.
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by 56astro]
Buggy Boyz 路
Colin, I have 2 manx buggies, 1 which will get a V6 at this stage and one I have built the stroker for just to see how it goes. Also cause some people ( Namely Wes ) have been paying out on 92s for so long I thought I would start with a new set and see how long they last. That way I will know from my own experience.
As for 94's the reason I didn't go with them was cause you had to cut to much case for my likeing and if the 92's fail I can always go bigger but it is a little harder to go down to 92's from 94's. I had intended to go with 90.5 but that didn't work out due to stock levels.
In the end I really just wanted to have a play with one of them funky new alloy cases Mick had sitting around ..馃榾
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by Buggy Boyz]
As for 94's the reason I didn't go with them was cause you had to cut to much case for my likeing and if the 92's fail I can always go bigger but it is a little harder to go down to 92's from 94's. I had intended to go with 90.5 but that didn't work out due to stock levels.
In the end I really just wanted to have a play with one of them funky new alloy cases Mick had sitting around ..馃榾
[Edited on 20-1-2003 by Buggy Boyz]
amazer 路
Well I thought I was done with this topic because I dont have a barrow to push either way. I'm a type 4 kombi person. BUT!56astro wrote:His cars have been sabotaged at race meetings, his customers cars have been sabotaged by other VW workshops, Pobjoy-powered cars are refused entry to VW shows.
I find it extremely hard to believe that a car would get sabotaged at a hillclimb. There are far too many people about and it just isnt done. There are plenty of ideological/personality clashes for sure but I have enver heard of sabotage. Although if you are from NSWRRC I wouldnt rule out murder.
Workshops sabotaging? I dont know how. They would have to fix their sabotaging. If there is any evidence in this then it should be reported to MTA.
The show entry refusal takes the cake though. I would definitely like to know whos cars were refused and the reason given by the club. I'm assuming they didnt say "you cant come in with a pobjoy 1916".
Baja Wes 路
"Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't,
And the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it."
Robert Frost
And the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it."
Robert Frost
fullnoise 路
I haven't heard anything about sabotage.
All I've heard is that the Nambucca Spectacular race format is 3 laps so that the Hillclimb cars (namely pobjoy cars) will overheat and not be competitive.
Perhaps the Pobjoy boys need to throw on bigger pulleys and we could have a showdown this year at Nambucca. C'mon Ben, Craig, Greg and Chris lets see who wins in August? Jak and I will probably come along and fight for the wooden spoon.
BTW I had my 1916 tearing along the F3 on the way to Gosford and back on Saturday. It was the hottest day in 20years and I'm doing 120kmph with 94 pistons and barrels, 9.5 CR and street eliminators. I'm sure I read somewhere that you're not supposed to do that.
CYA, CT:repuke
All I've heard is that the Nambucca Spectacular race format is 3 laps so that the Hillclimb cars (namely pobjoy cars) will overheat and not be competitive.
Perhaps the Pobjoy boys need to throw on bigger pulleys and we could have a showdown this year at Nambucca. C'mon Ben, Craig, Greg and Chris lets see who wins in August? Jak and I will probably come along and fight for the wooden spoon.
BTW I had my 1916 tearing along the F3 on the way to Gosford and back on Saturday. It was the hottest day in 20years and I'm doing 120kmph with 94 pistons and barrels, 9.5 CR and street eliminators. I'm sure I read somewhere that you're not supposed to do that.
CYA, CT:repuke
Bizarre 路
Ct
ummm.....can i ask what your temp gauge was reading?
You do run a standoff kit dont you? alls i could see was a flush engine lid with slots on those piccies Jak posted.
By the way.......you are not getting a wooden spoon....i am taking my 1776 and Daisy the Kombi up this year hopefully. Havent told the wife i want to have a blat around a track in the bus yet!
ummm.....can i ask what your temp gauge was reading?
You do run a standoff kit dont you? alls i could see was a flush engine lid with slots on those piccies Jak posted.
By the way.......you are not getting a wooden spoon....i am taking my 1776 and Daisy the Kombi up this year hopefully. Havent told the wife i want to have a blat around a track in the bus yet!
amazer 路
Baah. Even if I could somehow keep my car on the track and beat you guys you would all bitch about me cos its turbo 馃槈 j/k
I dont know if I will be racing. I really need more dyno time to set up the EFI and it costs $$$. Then I'd have to re rego the trailer. Dont know if mrs will let me spend her money on racing. Maybe I could pinch the keys of the VWRX notch. What size pistons in that? I'll try and save a few pennies, see how I go. (cop out)
Maybe we should all have a go together in the karts. Just for fun, if thats at all possible.
Whats all this crap about hillclimb cars overheating????? My hillclimb engine is the very same engine I used to drive to work n back each day.
Circuit racing is for people who cant get it right in one go. Give em 3 laps to make up for their mistakes 馃榾
[Edited on 21-1-2003 by amazer]
I dont know if I will be racing. I really need more dyno time to set up the EFI and it costs $$$. Then I'd have to re rego the trailer. Dont know if mrs will let me spend her money on racing. Maybe I could pinch the keys of the VWRX notch. What size pistons in that? I'll try and save a few pennies, see how I go. (cop out)
Maybe we should all have a go together in the karts. Just for fun, if thats at all possible.
Whats all this crap about hillclimb cars overheating????? My hillclimb engine is the very same engine I used to drive to work n back each day.
Circuit racing is for people who cant get it right in one go. Give em 3 laps to make up for their mistakes 馃榾
[Edited on 21-1-2003 by amazer]
Craig Torrens 路
Chris, we finally agree on the same thing!Karts,cooling and circuit racers.
馃檪
馃檪
kombi_kid 路
what licencing do u need to race in all these full on hilclimbs????ill be in with the karts my record at to good with karts (crashed into a fence knocking it down and sliding up the seats crashing my nuts into the steering pole OUCH!!!)
cheers
rhys
cheers
rhys
amazer 路
You need a CAMS level 2 licence to do hillclimbing. To get a CAMS licence you need to be a member of a CAMS affiliated club. After that its just a matter fo filling out a form and signing a medical declaration. If you have any medical conditions I suggest you keep them secret. Because CAMS wont issue a licence to you because of the ol' liablility thing. I ticked every condition there was and told em 'none of your business go get.....' and they wouldnt give me one either. Being a smart arse dont help in this situation. Just lie.
A guy in our club had a heart bypass and now cant race. Even though he is healthier now than before the op. It seems CAMS will let you run with a blocked heart but not a clear one. It also appears that if you have a bypass you are allowed to drive on public roads where everyone is at risk but not on a track where only yourself is at risk.
Thats my CAMS bitch for the day. You will need a level 2 for the lap dash as well.
A guy in our club had a heart bypass and now cant race. Even though he is healthier now than before the op. It seems CAMS will let you run with a blocked heart but not a clear one. It also appears that if you have a bypass you are allowed to drive on public roads where everyone is at risk but not on a track where only yourself is at risk.
Thats my CAMS bitch for the day. You will need a level 2 for the lap dash as well.
Jamox 路
Bloody hell!!! I think -no, I am certain- that this has been the the most confusing and contradictory topic I have ever read!!! I was interested in getting a new motor to quiten down some of my buddies. I have gained absolutely nothing from this thread. Was it supposed to help me? I now don't know what to do.
I just read a few articles on Stan Pobjoy's motors and they sounded unreal and had me convinced in trying to follow some of his theories. One article was in "Hot 4s and Rotaries; Red Hot Volkswagens No 1." the other was in Australia's "Best Volkswagens No1". What Ben and others have said have wiped that away. I don't know much about performance for engines so how can I trust my VW mechanic for advice? What if his recommendations are different again? If I am forking out money, I don't really want to just accept that everyone has different opinions. I want to know.
I have a baja too, so it doesn't need to drag race, just be good at the lights and be reliable .
I dread to ask: "Recommendations?"
I just read a few articles on Stan Pobjoy's motors and they sounded unreal and had me convinced in trying to follow some of his theories. One article was in "Hot 4s and Rotaries; Red Hot Volkswagens No 1." the other was in Australia's "Best Volkswagens No1". What Ben and others have said have wiped that away. I don't know much about performance for engines so how can I trust my VW mechanic for advice? What if his recommendations are different again? If I am forking out money, I don't really want to just accept that everyone has different opinions. I want to know.
I have a baja too, so it doesn't need to drag race, just be good at the lights and be reliable .
I dread to ask: "Recommendations?"
Buggy Boyz 路
If my buggy makes it to Valla I will happily race you all...... Just don't think many of you will be out there on the gynkana circuit with me 馃榾馃榾
Oh well should still be a hoot, just need to find tht damn license thingy ...
Oh well should still be a hoot, just need to find tht damn license thingy ...
kombi_kid 路
went to the CAMS site and had a read of the liucencing deal im oldenough to get mine and there is a club here that is CAMS affiliated but i dont know iof its worth it!
cheers
rhys
cheers
rhys
Baja Wes 路
Jamox, any high performance VW motor from a respectable VW engine builder will be fine. Since you have a Baja, you will like the torque of the 1915.
Ben, I am happy to race you, the only problem is we like different cars that are made for different purposes. I would happily race you from one side of Fraser Island to the other (if they closed it off for us of course), and I am sure I would kick your ass as you'd be bogged. Similar if we race on the road you will kick my arse as I have 300mm of ground clearance, no sway bars, and mud tyres. So really as much as I would like to, we can't race. And if we did it would only show the difference between car and driver and only a small % engine. I am sure you build great engines that would be fantastic to drive, but I wouldn't pay your asking price. I wouldn't pay the asking price for a Pobjoy motor either. And that is why my car has a V6.
PS - Brad doesn't have anything against 94's, as he bought my old 1915. He is just going to use 92's to stir up some shit because everyone hates them, and he got them at the right price.
[Edited on 26-1-2003 by Baja Wes]
Ben, I am happy to race you, the only problem is we like different cars that are made for different purposes. I would happily race you from one side of Fraser Island to the other (if they closed it off for us of course), and I am sure I would kick your ass as you'd be bogged. Similar if we race on the road you will kick my arse as I have 300mm of ground clearance, no sway bars, and mud tyres. So really as much as I would like to, we can't race. And if we did it would only show the difference between car and driver and only a small % engine. I am sure you build great engines that would be fantastic to drive, but I wouldn't pay your asking price. I wouldn't pay the asking price for a Pobjoy motor either. And that is why my car has a V6.
PS - Brad doesn't have anything against 94's, as he bought my old 1915. He is just going to use 92's to stir up some shit because everyone hates them, and he got them at the right price.
[Edited on 26-1-2003 by Baja Wes]
Craig Torrens 路
mmmmm,
So if you want to race with a 1943cc just make sure Ben is available to "jet and trim" your car before every run !!!!!
Also invest in a gas analyser and spend a small fortune on programmable injection!
Now I'm REALLY happy with my 1916 with 44IDF's ,if this is what's needed to make the other perform.
So if you want to race with a 1943cc just make sure Ben is available to "jet and trim" your car before every run !!!!!
Also invest in a gas analyser and spend a small fortune on programmable injection!
Now I'm REALLY happy with my 1916 with 44IDF's ,if this is what's needed to make the other perform.
vw54 路
maybe everyone should SWAP cars and drive at the different events
I think the times represent how crazy or Game some drives may be.
I think the times represent how crazy or Game some drives may be.
Bizarre 路
heh heh heh so Dave - you offering me a drive in Smoothie of the super charged? 馃榾
lugnuts 路
I think you should all take a cold shower,chill out relax and have a cold one,this thread will hopefully die soon before we all turn into yanks and have a bitch fight like they do on STF.:P
vw54 路
Barry anytime you find how Smoothee is goes...
No i was refering to size of some peoples sacks. Some r bigger than mine....
i dont like being out of control .. :puke:puke around corners... but in a straight line no worries.
[Edited on 27-1-2003 by vw54]
[Edited on 27-1-2003 by vw54]
No i was refering to size of some peoples sacks. Some r bigger than mine....
i dont like being out of control .. :puke:puke around corners... but in a straight line no worries.
[Edited on 27-1-2003 by vw54]
[Edited on 27-1-2003 by vw54]
Pat 路
AAAHHH, so that's what this thread is REALLY about, comparing "sack" size, now it all makes sense.:P
OvalGlen 路
I say that it really makes a difference who machines your 1916cc engine.
The one who machined my 1916 is reputed as one of the best in the bussiness.
I have had a couple of them and " I think that they are
Great motors."
It just seems to be a big Torquey motor that is still able to rev hard and just keeps going and going. I thrash it often.
This current one is awaiting a blower, but even with the mild cam it has now it
is a fun grunty motor.
If you're thinking of going 1916 , I thoroughly recommend them but make sure you get someone who Konws what he is doing (done 100's and 100's) to machine it.
Also helps to get a good combination of Cam/Carb/Heads/exhaust..ask the Man.
The one who machined my 1916 is reputed as one of the best in the bussiness.
I have had a couple of them and " I think that they are
Great motors."
It just seems to be a big Torquey motor that is still able to rev hard and just keeps going and going. I thrash it often.
This current one is awaiting a blower, but even with the mild cam it has now it
is a fun grunty motor.
If you're thinking of going 1916 , I thoroughly recommend them but make sure you get someone who Konws what he is doing (done 100's and 100's) to machine it.
Also helps to get a good combination of Cam/Carb/Heads/exhaust..ask the Man.
Peter Leonard 路
I've been driving my 'non steroidically enhanced' 1916 Pobjoy engine for about five years or so. Lets clarify 'driving' for a sec. Driving could be anything from getting a litre of milk at the shops, to redlining and doing burnouts every day. In the time I've owned the engine I've made maybe 3- 400 'just the litre of milk' missions, done about 350 burnouts and blown away about 7 million showy hatchbacks and baseball cap wearing tracksuited doofing nutbags (mebbe not 7mil, but you get my point). I redline every so often, but more as a mistake than anything else, you soon get to feel where the power is sweetest - and valve bounce sounds kinda funny...
The engine has taken me around Australia, Kadrons fitted with Unifilter filter socks to get thru 400 kms of corrugated dirt roads in Central Australia, taken me to Melbourne six times (including the trip to Canterbury? hillclimb made just three hours after dropping said engine in back of 71 superbug) done about five trips to central coast, two to Brisbane, etc etc.. it's done some serious touring. It's now in it's second body (after defining where the crumple zone ends on a mitsubishi magna station wagon, and after having a misplaced truck wheel tear the sump offf on the Hume Highway). It has never looked like quitting, besides one time in Darwin, where it was struck by lightning, frying the regulator in the alternator (ironically one bit Stan 'proponent of all things stock' said I could have stuck with the old generator).
I swapped the plugs over last week (first time ever) and was rewarded with a nice little power boost. I have shown off to mates, scared girlfriends, obliterated thousands of flying insects and still it keeps grinning at me every time I look at it. I went thru a quite a few VW mechanics before deciding on an engineer, ex Hawker de Havilland trained and all. Every cent I spent on the 1916 was worth it. I'd like to add at this point, that i have been known to wear baseball hats, wear shiny tracksuits, and play doof music thru the 600 watt soundsystem in my snot green Volkswagen. Just not all at the same time.
Doing business with the Pobjoy family was straightforward, honest and a pleasure. Stan (last i heard) is the only hands on employee at Stan Pobjoy's Racing Engineering. The other is his wife, Ruth, who tries to keep on top of a pile of paperwork while juggling her racing career at Stan's side.
"So what?"
Every engine Stan puts together for sale, Stan puts together. Not some 12 year old hamfisted apprentice with a claw hammer and a rag in his pocket. I hear he used to guarantee his engines for 12 months. But it became an open invitation to thrash their guts out as quickly as possible (most not succeeding in 12 months) and as engine abuse is not the spirit of his guarantee, he dropped it to six or something.. ask him. I haven't seen him for a while since he died again and moved to coffs harbour 馃槈
I'm going to be seeing him again soon as I have the justification/money for a steroids engine. I took a ride in one with Troy once (stan's old orange L bug). I got out of it beaming. where the 'stock' 1916 bounced valves, the steroids 1916 just sounded meaner and pushed you back into your seat harder. Can we say 'fun?'
Sorry to have rambled for so long, but the 1916 has been a source of serious fun for me, despite the fact that I also ride a sportsbike, and that the shell it's now housed in has wheels pointed in four different directions. As far as the 94mm cylinders go, if you know what you're doing with a machining table horizontal to within 1/1000th" in all directions, and have an attention to detail within aircraft tolerances, love going fast so much that you fall asleep during everyday driving, run a small business making handbuilt VW engines, can't afford to make a dud engine, don't cut corners, don't make false promises, talk waaaaaayyyyy too much about VWs, and constantly grin about being the best in the business, you're probably stan, so I'd probably trust you to shoehorn a set of four cardboard boxes into my case if you told me it'd work. Colling on my engine is stock. stock stock. hottest it's ever been is 120 degrees for four hours in 40 degree heat at 80MpH on the way to Darwin. *shrugs*
94's are stronger than crappy slip in 92's. you have to machine the case to fit them,
(so you can't be a mechanic with a file to do it) but you remove a lot less important material than doing something wacky like clearancing an oversized stroker crank (in the process weakening a case at the very points it needs reinforcement). The longer the stroke, the lower the revs before your engine tries to tear itself into 'a three piece case'. Wanna hear what 9000 rpm sounds like on a VW? listen to the 1916 open-wheeler Stan's been fiddling (and winning) with for years. And stay clear of slow revving stroker cranks. mmm... nasty...
*gets off soapbox*
have fun destroying the spirits of v6 owners, and remember, double demerits. mucho cash for police. (if they were serious they'd drop the fines at easter, and double the demerits.)
:puke
The engine has taken me around Australia, Kadrons fitted with Unifilter filter socks to get thru 400 kms of corrugated dirt roads in Central Australia, taken me to Melbourne six times (including the trip to Canterbury? hillclimb made just three hours after dropping said engine in back of 71 superbug) done about five trips to central coast, two to Brisbane, etc etc.. it's done some serious touring. It's now in it's second body (after defining where the crumple zone ends on a mitsubishi magna station wagon, and after having a misplaced truck wheel tear the sump offf on the Hume Highway). It has never looked like quitting, besides one time in Darwin, where it was struck by lightning, frying the regulator in the alternator (ironically one bit Stan 'proponent of all things stock' said I could have stuck with the old generator).
I swapped the plugs over last week (first time ever) and was rewarded with a nice little power boost. I have shown off to mates, scared girlfriends, obliterated thousands of flying insects and still it keeps grinning at me every time I look at it. I went thru a quite a few VW mechanics before deciding on an engineer, ex Hawker de Havilland trained and all. Every cent I spent on the 1916 was worth it. I'd like to add at this point, that i have been known to wear baseball hats, wear shiny tracksuits, and play doof music thru the 600 watt soundsystem in my snot green Volkswagen. Just not all at the same time.
Doing business with the Pobjoy family was straightforward, honest and a pleasure. Stan (last i heard) is the only hands on employee at Stan Pobjoy's Racing Engineering. The other is his wife, Ruth, who tries to keep on top of a pile of paperwork while juggling her racing career at Stan's side.
"So what?"
Every engine Stan puts together for sale, Stan puts together. Not some 12 year old hamfisted apprentice with a claw hammer and a rag in his pocket. I hear he used to guarantee his engines for 12 months. But it became an open invitation to thrash their guts out as quickly as possible (most not succeeding in 12 months) and as engine abuse is not the spirit of his guarantee, he dropped it to six or something.. ask him. I haven't seen him for a while since he died again and moved to coffs harbour 馃槈
I'm going to be seeing him again soon as I have the justification/money for a steroids engine. I took a ride in one with Troy once (stan's old orange L bug). I got out of it beaming. where the 'stock' 1916 bounced valves, the steroids 1916 just sounded meaner and pushed you back into your seat harder. Can we say 'fun?'
Sorry to have rambled for so long, but the 1916 has been a source of serious fun for me, despite the fact that I also ride a sportsbike, and that the shell it's now housed in has wheels pointed in four different directions. As far as the 94mm cylinders go, if you know what you're doing with a machining table horizontal to within 1/1000th" in all directions, and have an attention to detail within aircraft tolerances, love going fast so much that you fall asleep during everyday driving, run a small business making handbuilt VW engines, can't afford to make a dud engine, don't cut corners, don't make false promises, talk waaaaaayyyyy too much about VWs, and constantly grin about being the best in the business, you're probably stan, so I'd probably trust you to shoehorn a set of four cardboard boxes into my case if you told me it'd work. Colling on my engine is stock. stock stock. hottest it's ever been is 120 degrees for four hours in 40 degree heat at 80MpH on the way to Darwin. *shrugs*
94's are stronger than crappy slip in 92's. you have to machine the case to fit them,
(so you can't be a mechanic with a file to do it) but you remove a lot less important material than doing something wacky like clearancing an oversized stroker crank (in the process weakening a case at the very points it needs reinforcement). The longer the stroke, the lower the revs before your engine tries to tear itself into 'a three piece case'. Wanna hear what 9000 rpm sounds like on a VW? listen to the 1916 open-wheeler Stan's been fiddling (and winning) with for years. And stay clear of slow revving stroker cranks. mmm... nasty...
*gets off soapbox*
have fun destroying the spirits of v6 owners, and remember, double demerits. mucho cash for police. (if they were serious they'd drop the fines at easter, and double the demerits.)
:puke
shiftyvw 路
can someone tell me what the difference is between a standard pobjoy 1916 and a "steroid" one. heads compression cam etc?
OvalGlen 路
hopefully see him on Sunday ,I'll let you Know.
jakriz 路
All I can say Peter is go for a ride in a stroker motored beetle & then tell me with a straight face that your 1916cc is better.
Just as a foot note, my little 1880cc is 4 seconds a lap quicker around Wakefield in another superbug with a base 1916cc from Stan , & thats with slicks!
After riding in a 2387cc beetle, tourqe is everything, why rev to 7000, 8000 or even 9000rpm when u can short shift at 6000rpm & watch the world go by as a blur.
regards
Jak
Just as a foot note, my little 1880cc is 4 seconds a lap quicker around Wakefield in another superbug with a base 1916cc from Stan , & thats with slicks!
After riding in a 2387cc beetle, tourqe is everything, why rev to 7000, 8000 or even 9000rpm when u can short shift at 6000rpm & watch the world go by as a blur.
regards
Jak
OvalGlen 路
yes shiftyvw heads, carburetion , cam , compression and possibly crank ( if you opted for the cheaper set up without counterwieghts).
I didnt get exact details as he was pretty busy.
I didnt get exact details as he was pretty busy.
70AutoStik 路
Yes, Jakriz; a stroker can outperform a 1916 - I'm building one myself, and the cost and complexity tempt me to yell: "Stan, where the f&#% are you?"
I think Peter's comments are exactly what we are looking for here - some real world experience on the longevity and cooling issues with a truly professionally-built 1916. I, personally, would never question Stan's engineering abilities - but there has been a lot of debate over 94mm cylinders.
I think we have established that 94s can be used quite practically on a streetable motor, I'm simply mad enough to aim for the lifespan of an original engine - even though I, like most of us, will never personally see it. The original engine, with correct maintenance, can see over 200,000 miles - I have put this on work vehicles (commodores and falcons,) but can't see where I'd ever do it on my VW.
[But it's my dream!]
I think Peter's comments are exactly what we are looking for here - some real world experience on the longevity and cooling issues with a truly professionally-built 1916. I, personally, would never question Stan's engineering abilities - but there has been a lot of debate over 94mm cylinders.
I think we have established that 94s can be used quite practically on a streetable motor, I'm simply mad enough to aim for the lifespan of an original engine - even though I, like most of us, will never personally see it. The original engine, with correct maintenance, can see over 200,000 miles - I have put this on work vehicles (commodores and falcons,) but can't see where I'd ever do it on my VW.
[But it's my dream!]
Peter Leonard 路
jakriz wrote:All I can say Peter is go for a ride in a stroker motored beetle & then tell me with a straight face that your 1916cc is better.
"better?"
my 1916 has been running exactly as it should, reliably, ever since I started using it. If I had money and time to burn on replacing overstressed cases and cracked heads, I'd probably have a supercharged stroker in a car with all four wheels pointed in the same direction. I wanted power AND reliability. So for me, mines better.
When you lengthen the stroke, jak, do you remove material from the crankcase to clear the new throw? Have you ever blown up or cracked a case? broken a crank? had to rebuild your race engine?
horses for courses.
torque is cheap. but not THAT cheap.
what carbs, heads etc u running if you don't mind me asking?
馃槑
Blue65 路
And miss out on the revenue? Would a druggie say no to a free fix???? The government makes too much money to do that.Peter Leonard wrote:...remember, double demerits. mucho cash for police. (if they were serious they'd drop the fines at easter, and double the demerits.)
:puke
Darn, I just got pulled over by the "police" tonight. I was doing 45mph (about 70km) in a 60km zone. Its double dual lane. There's no one else around for miles. Its in an industrial area. Police say radar showed 81km and shoved me a $200 fine and 3 demerit points. Oh crap....
:cry
Blue65 路
Sorry for the rant. How much does Stan charge for his engines btw?
Or rather how much would it cost to build a good decent engine?
Or rather how much would it cost to build a good decent engine?
slowbug 路
I would like to know the answer to this question also......all this talk of fast engines is awakening my flagging testosterone馃槑Blue65 wrote:Or rather how much would it cost to build a good decent engine?
Che Castro 路
well the 1916 has it's place seeing it is cheaper to build than a stroker. Its a great budget motor
jakriz 路
Autostick, the cost & complexity shouldn't be getting to u building a stroker. Whats the difference? A 76mm crank will slip into a vW with no clearancing needed, u can use standard rods with it & just use stroker pistons to offset the stroke. No dramas. If u are going to spend the money on a 69mm counterweighted crank anyway, why not go bigger for a little more cost.? For years I had always used standard 69mm cranks or 69mm counterweighted cranks but after having a stroker I'll never go back.
I agree totally that if u are on a budget then a standard balanced crank is perfect but if u are spending money on a crank & rods for that matter, invest in something bigger & better.
"Have you ever blown up or cracked a case? broken a crank? had to rebuild your race engine?
Yes Pete, I have just had a chevy rod let go, u may have seen my post from 2 months back, I'm not afraid to tell people. I've currently enlarged the capacity to 2027cc with 94mm pistons & I've replaced the rods with CB Performace race rods.
Before u raise your eyebrows about the blowup, The crank & rod setup that I have (I'm still using the crank) has been goign since 1984!!! 19 years in action, & my car is the first street/ race car that it has been in, previously it was doing duty in Borris' Targa race beetle I beleive, so to say that the rods & crank have had a hard run is an understatement, plus I've had them for 3 years in my motor & have done about 25 supersprints, revving it's head off all day & then driving it home again to drive to work the next day. So I'm not complaining about the blow up.
I'm running standard 040's that have been ported & polished with match ported manifolds (all tricks that backyard mechanics can do themselves) with 45mm Dellortoes.
regards
Jak:thumb
I agree totally that if u are on a budget then a standard balanced crank is perfect but if u are spending money on a crank & rods for that matter, invest in something bigger & better.
"Have you ever blown up or cracked a case? broken a crank? had to rebuild your race engine?
Yes Pete, I have just had a chevy rod let go, u may have seen my post from 2 months back, I'm not afraid to tell people. I've currently enlarged the capacity to 2027cc with 94mm pistons & I've replaced the rods with CB Performace race rods.
Before u raise your eyebrows about the blowup, The crank & rod setup that I have (I'm still using the crank) has been goign since 1984!!! 19 years in action, & my car is the first street/ race car that it has been in, previously it was doing duty in Borris' Targa race beetle I beleive, so to say that the rods & crank have had a hard run is an understatement, plus I've had them for 3 years in my motor & have done about 25 supersprints, revving it's head off all day & then driving it home again to drive to work the next day. So I'm not complaining about the blow up.
I'm running standard 040's that have been ported & polished with match ported manifolds (all tricks that backyard mechanics can do themselves) with 45mm Dellortoes.
regards
Jak:thumb
Craig Torrens 路
looks like we need a 2nd dyno day !!!!!!!
good to see you using 94's Jak, just need a 69mm crank !!!
馃檪
good to see you using 94's Jak, just need a 69mm crank !!!
馃檪
jakriz 路
Yeh Craig, we'll have another one soon, I'll let u know. The case that I'm using is is clearanced for 94's & also CNC machined for up to a 86mm crank..........guess what I'm getting for Xmas! No going back now Craig! & to think the first motor that I built was a 1640cc!
regards
Jak
PS I just missed u at Richards the other day by 5 minutes!
regards
Jak
PS I just missed u at Richards the other day by 5 minutes!
70AutoStik 路
A stroker crank, landed, will come to about $1200; a 76mm crank with standard rods will not "drop in" to the case, aftermarket rods come in at around $300. An Aussie supplier can supply a crank and modified holden rods for about $2000. A 76mm crank with stroker pistons will provide a rather low CR, with standard pistons will require spacers and cut to legth pushrods (and the exhaust can be a bugger to fit with large spacers.)
Just a few examples, a reasonable stroker can easily add up to about double what Stan the Man charges for his basic 1916s; I still think they're a reasonable alternative if you're on a budget (and a 1916 can work better with standard heads.)
Just a few examples, a reasonable stroker can easily add up to about double what Stan the Man charges for his basic 1916s; I still think they're a reasonable alternative if you're on a budget (and a 1916 can work better with standard heads.)
Baja Wes 路
I must say my 1915 was great, and the offroading I gave it showed it's longevity / drivability merits.
But once you look into the cost of a VW motor with 100+ HP, you'll begin to understand why I went watercooled. If your lucky enough to come for a ride, you'll really understand why I went watercooled. And when your wife/partner next complains of crap heating / no air-con, you'll wish you went watercooled too. :thumb
But once you look into the cost of a VW motor with 100+ HP, you'll begin to understand why I went watercooled. If your lucky enough to come for a ride, you'll really understand why I went watercooled. And when your wife/partner next complains of crap heating / no air-con, you'll wish you went watercooled too. :thumb
Craig Torrens 路
Jak , you're on a roll now !!!
:beer
:beer
OvalGlen 路
Jak - just craving for H.P.
I wanted more power too and decided that boost would work out cheaper.
Jak are you considering the " Turbo " next ????
I wanted more power too and decided that boost would work out cheaper.
Jak are you considering the " Turbo " next ????
jakriz 路
70stick I don't know where u buy your parts from but u are getting ripped off!
When was the last time u tried to get a 76mm crank into a VW case? have u actually tried it??? If cutting some pushrods to length & sticking some spacers under the barrels is a little too hard for u then I suggest sticking with the 1916cc.
Like I've said before, I've had both setups, standard stroke & now stroker & I'm only going to go bigger as I go along.
Who says size doesn't matter??? LOL
At the end of the day , use whatever works for u, not what u have read somewhere or heard someone say in a passing comment, unfortunantly as the old saying goes, 'Opinions are like A*%eholes, everyones got one. LOL
regards
Jak
[Edited on 22-4-2003 by jakriz]
When was the last time u tried to get a 76mm crank into a VW case? have u actually tried it??? If cutting some pushrods to length & sticking some spacers under the barrels is a little too hard for u then I suggest sticking with the 1916cc.
Like I've said before, I've had both setups, standard stroke & now stroker & I'm only going to go bigger as I go along.
Who says size doesn't matter??? LOL
At the end of the day , use whatever works for u, not what u have read somewhere or heard someone say in a passing comment, unfortunantly as the old saying goes, 'Opinions are like A*%eholes, everyones got one. LOL
regards
Jak
[Edited on 22-4-2003 by jakriz]
Craig Torrens 路
Quick question Jak, who had the 1916 superbug you were racing at Wakefield?
Bizarre 路
ct?Craig Torrens wrote:Quick question Jak, who had the 1916 superbug you were racing at Wakefield?
Baja Wes 路
CT doesn't have a superbug.
Hey blue, check this out, your our lucky 125th poster on the 3000 view, must be a prize for that.
:party
[Edited on 23-4-2003 by Baja Wes]
Hey blue, check this out, your our lucky 125th poster on the 3000 view, must be a prize for that.
:party
[Edited on 23-4-2003 by Baja Wes]
Bizarre 路
Ooops....heh heh heh... I knew that!Baja Wes wrote:CT doesn't have a superbug.
Hmmm maybe i could win a panel beater!
Bizarre 路
I had a silly post b4 - almost ALL the post are a 10:1 ratio.
This one is like 30:1
EVERYONE just wants to check this topic out.
I think EVERYONE wants to have an opinion just wont post it 馃榾
OK here goes - 88 slipins will beat a 1916 ANYDAY!!!!
This one is like 30:1
EVERYONE just wants to check this topic out.
I think EVERYONE wants to have an opinion just wont post it 馃榾
OK here goes - 88 slipins will beat a 1916 ANYDAY!!!!
karmannghia60 路
I shouldn't have asked the original Q 馃槈. A few months later, I bought a 1916 and the thread still going
raf
raf
Bizarre 路
What!?....... ya should have bought a 1775!.karmannghia60 wrote:.... I bought a 1916 .....
A 1916 will NEVER last.
The walls are too fat! 馃榾
Baja Wes 路
I even told people to go watercooled, and I still got no bites 馃榾
Maybe everyone has just realised watercooled is the way to go..... :vader
Maybe everyone has just realised watercooled is the way to go..... :vader
Bizarre 路
Mood: Stoned he he he
Ahhh NOW i know why you went water cooled 馃槑馃槑
Ahhh NOW i know why you went water cooled 馃槑馃槑
NigeType3 路
Wes your so funny heheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheeheheheheheheheheheheheeheheheheheheheheheheheheeheheheheheheheheheheheheehheehehehehe
:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾
:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾
Che Castro 路
no barry you got it wrong... 92's will even outlast stock.
and wes you're an idiot for spending a couple of grand to get 6 cylinders,EFI, DOHC, Variable length intake... i mean WHAT A RIPOFF! you should have just built an 1835 and smacked a holley on it, with a 4 tip monza exhaust, it would've kicked ass!
and wes you're an idiot for spending a couple of grand to get 6 cylinders,EFI, DOHC, Variable length intake... i mean WHAT A RIPOFF! you should have just built an 1835 and smacked a holley on it, with a 4 tip monza exhaust, it would've kicked ass!
jakriz 路
It was a new guy named Paul , Craig, I can't remember his last name, he knew of me & my racing & thats what got him started. The L-bug that he bought came with a Pobjoy 1916cc, he has since let Richard from V-Force go to town on the brakes , wheels , tyres & suspension. He said that the car is fine through the corners but lacks stright line speed so guess what he bought??? thats right, & stroker crank & chromoly race rods to match.Craig Torrens wrote:Quick question Jak, who had the 1916 superbug you were racing at Wakefield?
regards
Jak
Tazzielittle 路
So has anyone compaired prices?
As in Piston and barrell kits, Heads, Cranks, Cams.
Between the two.
And wes's waterpipe still runs cooler!
As in Piston and barrell kits, Heads, Cranks, Cams.
Between the two.
And wes's waterpipe still runs cooler!
Bizarre 路
[/quote]
It was a new guy named Paul .... he has since let Richard from V-Force go to town on the brakes [/quote]
Ahhhh.... Paul. Thats him. Good guy, unfortunately dont chat here. 馃檨
He was the guy at the Nat's with the navy blue L Bug at the V Force stand.
He had the C 2's (Design 90's) on.
Hmm.... I still "REALLY" like those wheels.
Hmmm.... maybe i need 2 cars..........
That blue one looked good..... 7's all round...nice stance.
I dont care what anyone says, L's sit NICE with big Porsche wheels and lowered! 馃榾
It was a new guy named Paul .... he has since let Richard from V-Force go to town on the brakes [/quote]
Ahhhh.... Paul. Thats him. Good guy, unfortunately dont chat here. 馃檨
He was the guy at the Nat's with the navy blue L Bug at the V Force stand.
He had the C 2's (Design 90's) on.
Hmm.... I still "REALLY" like those wheels.
Hmmm.... maybe i need 2 cars..........
That blue one looked good..... 7's all round...nice stance.
I dont care what anyone says, L's sit NICE with big Porsche wheels and lowered! 馃榾
jakriz 路
I'm still waiting for the pics of your your new car Baz!!!!! especially with your boxter wheels on it.
regards
Jak
PS are u going to be at Richards tommorrow night???
regards
Jak
PS are u going to be at Richards tommorrow night???
Bizarre 路
Nah..... off to Newmes tomorrow in the kombi 馃榾. Wife wanted to go camping over easter. I really stuffed things up with my escapade!
This has pissed the seller off a bit. I said i was going to pick up today but couldnt get a bank cheque today, and i wont be there till Saturday morning! :P
Oh well..... i have said i want it and paid a deposit, so..........
Hey ... the motor is looking sweet.
It is like when he did the kombi motor..... some motors are thrown togther...... some are born with love and care. Yours has that same glow.......
I will be a baby.....
To ne nertured and thrashed!!
This has pissed the seller off a bit. I said i was going to pick up today but couldnt get a bank cheque today, and i wont be there till Saturday morning! :P
Oh well..... i have said i want it and paid a deposit, so..........
Hey ... the motor is looking sweet.
It is like when he did the kombi motor..... some motors are thrown togther...... some are born with love and care. Yours has that same glow.......
I will be a baby.....
To ne nertured and thrashed!!
Peter Leonard 路
"stroker crank & chromoly race rods to match."
match?!?!
in a bootiful 1916..
*sobs uncontrollably*
noooooo noooooooo
does anyone know what the thermal co-efficient of linear expansion is for chrome molybdenum rods:P
i'm guessing they're quite resistant to creep... damn shame the rods are sized to expand to the right damn length WHEN THEY'RE STOCK!
please tell paul to watch his clearances, and that the more he screws with the blueprints, the further out he's gonna be...
don't feed your racehorse sugar you'll KILL IT:o
alright. i'm calming down now.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghh:puke
match?!?!
in a bootiful 1916..
*sobs uncontrollably*
noooooo noooooooo
does anyone know what the thermal co-efficient of linear expansion is for chrome molybdenum rods:P
i'm guessing they're quite resistant to creep... damn shame the rods are sized to expand to the right damn length WHEN THEY'RE STOCK!
please tell paul to watch his clearances, and that the more he screws with the blueprints, the further out he's gonna be...
don't feed your racehorse sugar you'll KILL IT:o
alright. i'm calming down now.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaghh:puke
Craig Torrens 路
pete my friend, let them learn the hard way,or should I say the expensive way !馃槑
jakriz 路
Don't u worry about us Petey babe, u just keep putting around in that 1916 kadron "V6 killer".....................
regards
Jak
regards
Jak
Baja Wes 路
It's always funny when people with no idea post stuff.Peter Leonard wrote:does anyone know what the thermal co-efficient of linear expansion is for chrome molybdenum rods:P
i'm guessing they're quite resistant to creep... damn shame the rods are sized to expand to the right damn length WHEN THEY'RE STOCK!
First I will start with the creep comment. Do you know what creep is? I didn't think so. Creep is virtually non existant until you get up to around 50% of the recrystallisation temperature of the steel. I can guarantee your conrods aren't getting that hot. How hot did you think your conrods got anyway? Creep is important in high temperature high stress components like turbine blades.
And chrome moly isn't a specific metal. Higher grades are stainless steels, which have an expansion of about 0.000016. Normal steels are around 0.000012. So the difference between the two is 0.000004. Say you conrods are 100 degrees hotter (not that your ever going to see that) than your cylinders, and they are 100mm long. That gives you 0.000004x100x100 = 0.04mm difference in growth between having steel and stainless steel conrods. If you are building your engine to that sort of valve to piston clearance, your crazy.
Besides, race engines use aluminium rods which have an expansion of about 0.000023, about double that of steel
vw54 路
Hey Wes
What degree are you doing at Uni ???
What degree are you doing at Uni ???
Baja Wes 路
a bean counter 馃榾
[Edited on 28-4-2003 by Baja Wes]
[Edited on 28-4-2003 by Baja Wes]
amazer 路
geez Wes. Keep those people out of here and there'd be nuffin to read. Have you tried printing this shit out? I did ages ago and I think it was about 50 pagesIt's always funny when people with no idea post stuff.
I still say 71 x 94 in a big block is the only way to go :thumb
Keep it up Jak. You got my vote for the next election. I'd have given up long ago. You got heaps of stamina.
[Edited on 24-4-2003 by amazer]
vanderaj 路
2.0 litres, normally aspirated, 110 kW and 200 Nm of torque (ie as powerful and torquey as my 1.8t), direct fuel injection, 6.9 l/100 km combined fuel economy (ie more fuel efficent by nearly 2 l/100 km). It needs a radiator but does come with a 120A alternator - no more dim bulbs. 馃檪
Downside: it will be a bit of a squeeze for non-Baja's, but ... 馃檪
Hmmm, which car does this remind you of?
Full story here:
http://www.audiworld.com/news/03/a32/
Andrew
Peter Leonard 路
jakriz wrote:Don't u worry about us Petey babe
No problem wizzo馃槈
*waits to hear the sound of a six piece CONROD circulating thru your sump*馃槑
jakriz 路
Keep it up Jak. You got my vote for the next election. I'd have given up long ago. You got heaps of stamina.
The only reason I finally had a go Chris was because I can...............seems to be all the reason u need on this thread sometimes.
& besides, next dyno day & want u to print out this thread on 100 pages!!!
regards
Jak
The only reason I finally had a go Chris was because I can...............seems to be all the reason u need on this thread sometimes.
& besides, next dyno day & want u to print out this thread on 100 pages!!!
regards
Jak
Peter Leonard 路
馃檪Baja Wes wrote:"It's always funny when people with no idea post stuff."Peter Leonard wrote:does anyone know what the thermal co-efficient of linear expansion is for chrome molybdenum rods:P
i'm guessing they're quite resistant to creep... damn shame the rods are sized to expand to the right damn length WHEN THEY'RE STOCK!
fully 馃檪
"First I will start with the creep comment. Do you know what creep is? I didn't think so."
WAIT wait wait, i do, i just misused the term, not expecting to have to wade into a ridiculous definition war. i should have just said "resistant to dimensional variation relative to temperature change"
oo and for the record, most types of chrome moly are highly resistant to 'creep'. hence their various industrial applications.
"Creep is virtually non existant until you get up to around 50% of the recrystallisation temperature of the steel. I can guarantee your conrods aren't getting that hot. How hot did you think your conrods got anyway?"
About 100 degrees or so i guess, whenever I stickytaped a sender on them it got flung off into the sump... oo yeah and i agree it's kinda insignificant on the CONRODS.
"Creep is important in high temperature high stress components like turbine blades."
just for the sake of definition (as you didn't bother to actually tell people what 'creep' IS) creep is when components like aircraft turbines (ta wes) and highly stressed structures like boilers take so much heat and pressure and stretching that they deform and remain deformed even after pressure and heat is removed. does that explain it Wes? 馃槈
"And chrome moly isn't a specific metal."
no kidding. it's a whole series of alloys. so tell us what the difference between say 4130 and E4340 is... and then let me know what they're using for those racing conrods. That would be more useful than making us digest crud like below :P
"Higher grades are stainless steels, which have an expansion of about 0.000016."
approx 0.000017 actually. and that's the unit change in dimensions per degree temperature rise. so for every degree one unit length of steel goes up in temp, it's size increases by 0.000017 of that unit. just to nail down what the numbers stand for.
"Normal steels are around 0.000012. So the difference between the two is 0.000004. Say you conrods are 100 degrees hotter than your cylinders,"
what's a co-efficient again? something to do with sameness or something...
at the SAME test temperature, different metals are found to have expanded more or less than other ones. hence the problem with allying (not alloying)dissimilar metals with each other under the SAME temperature range when you're working to close tolerances.
"(not that your ever going to see that)"
bloody hope not :o
"than your cylinders, and they are 100mm long. That gives you 0.000004x100x100 = 0.04mm difference in growth between having steel and stainless steel conrods. If you are building your engine to that sort of valve to piston clearance, your crazy."
i'm crazy, yes, but that has NOTHING to do with this discussion 馃檪
"Besides, race engines use aluminium rods which have an expansion of about 0.000023, about double that of steel [/i]
FINALLY at the bottom of this incredibly boring double rant, I'd like to apologise for the ambiguity of the word "rods".
I was referring to 'pushrods' not 'conrods'
i thought my mention of the clearances was more likely to be assumed to have been made in reference to 'valve clearances'. duhh. my bad. but chrome moly conrods don't have an amazing track record either (see the diff between chrome moly and chrome moly post coming up from resident mech engineer (hons) wes.)
any idiot can confuse people with mindless statistics and tech talk, but they could at least make it relevant.
vw comes with aluminium pushrods. these expand at a very similar rate to the crankcase, and when the engine is hot, and the pushrods are hot, everything's sweeeet.
*sigh* chrome moly steels, as wes pointed out, expand about half as much as aluminium. (i peg the co-efficient at 0.0000255) leaving your valve clearances something like .010 out (i got that figure off a website, so don't quote me). that's pretty out. that's what i was warning about, even though it seems the wires were crossed.
since you were having a go at me, wes, mebbe you could tell me what year VW made a QUAD CAM v6 for the beetle...
all of which has not a lot to do with the 1916cc motor.........:repuke
lugnuts 路
Hmmm,not much happening here think ile check out the STF,:kiss.
amazer 路
SHIT! I was going to relax this anzac day.
Now I gotta go and take my 10 year old pushrods out.
Someone form the 1916 brigade answer these questions based on my yr 10 science.
Jaks 2027 is burning more fuel so should have more energy there to begin with yes?
torque = force x distance is it not?
So the longer stroke the more torque yes?
2027's capacity + stroke = lots of torque gain?
and (not form yr 10 but something I hear regular enough) power = torque x revs yes?
2027 capacity + stroke + torque = more power yes?
2027 capacity + stroke + torque + power = WOOHOOO yes?
Seems potently obvious ( to this punter who may be digging himself a grave ) that 2027 is going to come out well in front of 1916 to me. If it costs more bucks then so be it. You cant drive a porsche with volkswagen dollars.
[Edited on 25-4-2003 by amazer]
Now I gotta go and take my 10 year old pushrods out.
Someone form the 1916 brigade answer these questions based on my yr 10 science.
Jaks 2027 is burning more fuel so should have more energy there to begin with yes?
torque = force x distance is it not?
So the longer stroke the more torque yes?
2027's capacity + stroke = lots of torque gain?
and (not form yr 10 but something I hear regular enough) power = torque x revs yes?
2027 capacity + stroke + torque = more power yes?
2027 capacity + stroke + torque + power = WOOHOOO yes?
Seems potently obvious ( to this punter who may be digging himself a grave ) that 2027 is going to come out well in front of 1916 to me. If it costs more bucks then so be it. You cant drive a porsche with volkswagen dollars.
[Edited on 25-4-2003 by amazer]
amazer 路
But for a little more you can drive a Volkswagen and kick a porsche arse!amazer wrote:You cant drive a porsche with volkswagen dollars.
amazer 路
I got a new ream of paper AND a new ink cartridge last week Jak. I'm all set.
Besides that a VW thread probably should be the number 1 topic, not a war thread.
Besides that a VW thread probably should be the number 1 topic, not a war thread.
amazer 路
I've nearly got 1916 posts!
jakriz 路
Your making me laugh Chris & I've got a headache at the same time..............I've really got to go put my new motor in the car, talk to u all later.
regards
Jak
regards
Jak
70AutoStik 路
You'll get used to that sort of stuff from Wes, Peter - He's _never_ wrong!
Doug Sweetman 路
This thread nearly has 1916 posts..... hahahaahahaha
One simple rule in life - if you are chasing power, there is no replacement for displacement. End of story.
Doug
(ps - also a BEng, Mechanical (hons) ) 馃檪 馃檪 :bounce
One simple rule in life - if you are chasing power, there is no replacement for displacement. End of story.
Doug
(ps - also a BEng, Mechanical (hons) ) 馃檪 馃檪 :bounce
Craig Torrens 路
mmmm, isn't funny that motor cycle engines have one of the highest horsepower per cc in standard form and they all have "big bore" short stroke???!!
In fact most motorcycle manufactures went away from long stroke in the 70's!
use motorcycle ideas and formulas on your car engine and it will have the same horsepower per cc effect
Horsepower per cc is what I'm interested in.
In fact I would love to destroke my motor.
food for thought
In fact most motorcycle manufactures went away from long stroke in the 70's!
use motorcycle ideas and formulas on your car engine and it will have the same horsepower per cc effect
Horsepower per cc is what I'm interested in.
In fact I would love to destroke my motor.
food for thought
amazer 路
you going to rev yours to 15000 16000...20000 rpm too?
jakriz 路
Thats right Chris, I love big tourqe & low revs, I think that 6000rpm is plenty.
regards
Jak
regards
Jak
Peter Leonard 路
someone better go tell the formula one people they've got it all wrong. 20,000 rpm.. hell yeah 馃榾 how awesome would that sound coming out the back of a beetle 馃槑
craig's got a good point, horsepower per cc has to be the simplest test of an engine.
power comes from petrol right? the more you can burn, the faster you go.. if it breathes, and spins without too much centrifugal force on the crank at high rpm it's gonna fly... like a gyro, or a light aircraft...馃檪
wes... serious question how much does ten grams weigh when it's orbiting around a point at a distance of 100mm, at a speed of 6000 rpm vs 3000 rpm?
(just if u have a formula or summin):thumb
craig's got a good point, horsepower per cc has to be the simplest test of an engine.
power comes from petrol right? the more you can burn, the faster you go.. if it breathes, and spins without too much centrifugal force on the crank at high rpm it's gonna fly... like a gyro, or a light aircraft...馃檪
wes... serious question how much does ten grams weigh when it's orbiting around a point at a distance of 100mm, at a speed of 6000 rpm vs 3000 rpm?
(just if u have a formula or summin):thumb
70AutoStik 路
No, I won't post the formuale; but it comes out to 4 times...
amazer 路
And when Craig gets his thing revving to half that I want to be there in the front row. I like looking at mechanical carnage.Peter Leonard wrote:someone better go tell the formula one people they've got it all wrong. 20,000 rpm.. hell yeah 馃榾 how awesome would that sound coming out the back of a beetle 馃槑
craig's got a good point, horsepower per cc has to be the simplest test of an engine.
amazer 路
I've thought about destroking too. Making a big bore big valve 1300 that revs to heaven. Take on the minis at hillclimbs. But I think it would probably end up near enough the same money, and I would hate myself cos I know I could go faster.
Bug_racer 路
Geez , you guys are really , I mean really weird . I done Mechanical engineering too and fair enough what you two are saying is right . But each to his own .
Firstly if you want all revs with smaller cc 's can you afford the titanium valves triple valve springs to do it ? The way I see it is I look at what other people do with VW motors . Not motorbike engines or F1 cars and see how much it costs then apply it to my own car . If you got the money to make a VW rev to 12000 RPM then go ahead . Imagine the heat the engine will make . And think of how your going to cool that engine down ? There are just so many variables that none of you guys will consider . But on a budget of $10k nothing beats a 2332 with 48's , a magneto and some superflo heads . Anyone disagree then we will see if your motor runs 10's with your combo .
Firstly if you want all revs with smaller cc 's can you afford the titanium valves triple valve springs to do it ? The way I see it is I look at what other people do with VW motors . Not motorbike engines or F1 cars and see how much it costs then apply it to my own car . If you got the money to make a VW rev to 12000 RPM then go ahead . Imagine the heat the engine will make . And think of how your going to cool that engine down ? There are just so many variables that none of you guys will consider . But on a budget of $10k nothing beats a 2332 with 48's , a magneto and some superflo heads . Anyone disagree then we will see if your motor runs 10's with your combo .
jakriz 路
What??? Use a stroker crank Seb? Are u insane?? Heh Heh........... at the end of the day u can't beat cubic inches. Period. Especially on a street motor, where heat is a main concern for a air cooled motor.
regards
Jak
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by jakriz]
regards
Jak
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by jakriz]
amazer 路
You cant use triple springs though. Cos the stock pushrods wont take it. They can only safely handle 18450 rpm as it is with stock springs. Of course you can use cro-mo but then the coefficients of linear expansion take over and you would then have to set valve clearances at 50 thou when cold to get your 4 thou hot and then.........
vanderaj 路
This is totally insane. 23,000 rpm. 馃檪
http://www.users.uswest.net/~qoncept/GopedTake2.wmv
More fuel doesn't necessarily turn into more cranks - look at the S2000 engine (167 kW, 2.0 litre) versus the Buick V6 3.8 (157 kW) in the current Commodore. The S2000 is also more fuel efficient than the Commodore. It's about efficiency, too.
Andrew
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by vanderaj]
http://www.users.uswest.net/~qoncept/GopedTake2.wmv
More fuel doesn't necessarily turn into more cranks - look at the S2000 engine (167 kW, 2.0 litre) versus the Buick V6 3.8 (157 kW) in the current Commodore. The S2000 is also more fuel efficient than the Commodore. It's about efficiency, too.
Andrew
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by vanderaj]
Craig Torrens 路
But how can this be !!!!
It's all about cubes man !馃榾馃榾
s2000 9200 redline:thumb
Honda make good bikes too:P
It's all about cubes man !馃榾馃榾
s2000 9200 redline:thumb
Honda make good bikes too:P
amazer 路
dont just talk about it man do it! I want to see you rev to 9G!!!! I know you can do it once, I just want to see you do it twice.
I'll be the first one to buy you a beer. Promise. Until then we all know you're just dribbling.
I'll be the first one to buy you a beer. Promise. Until then we all know you're just dribbling.
Peter Leonard 路
that's crazy vanderaj!
as is discussing the issue with scientific fact, common sense, and logic. 馃榾
it's way more fun to be a proponent of outdated principles and be a follower, than use your head and nut it out yourself.
i dunno if this is gonna make any diff. and at the end of the day i reckon it's a waste of time talking to the closed minded, but i live in hope.
SO. Maybe we can't build a vw engine to rev as high as a formula one car, or as high as some motorbikes... but we can apply the principles and get similar results.
thanks auto stik for the figures.. four times as much weight? at only 6000 rpm....so balancing an engine well becomes more and more important if we want it to rev at all efficiently (if opposing forces and weights like the swing of the crank and conrods aren't within a couple grams, things can get out of shape very quickly *ta autostik*) and the longer the stroke, the more critical the balancing is for revvability. But balancing is only half the battle, the engine has to breathe and get petch in to fill the combustion chamber quickly. this is harder the longer the chamber is.. possibly the reason why there are so few tractors racing these days.
the centrifugal forces generated by a stroker crank are huge. Volkswagen cases are pretty strong, and can take a hammering, but even they can only take so much before they start to become over-stressed and fatigue.
the ability of the engine to aspirate efficiently gets worse and worse the longer the cylinders. 'more cubes' is great, but a longer stroke is not necessarily the way to get it.
craig: how high does your puny 1916cc rev?
just wondering how close you are getting to "mechanical carnage"
*beats head against wall*
*throws logic out the window*
*waits for the excuses on dyno day*
as is discussing the issue with scientific fact, common sense, and logic. 馃榾
it's way more fun to be a proponent of outdated principles and be a follower, than use your head and nut it out yourself.
i dunno if this is gonna make any diff. and at the end of the day i reckon it's a waste of time talking to the closed minded, but i live in hope.
SO. Maybe we can't build a vw engine to rev as high as a formula one car, or as high as some motorbikes... but we can apply the principles and get similar results.
thanks auto stik for the figures.. four times as much weight? at only 6000 rpm....so balancing an engine well becomes more and more important if we want it to rev at all efficiently (if opposing forces and weights like the swing of the crank and conrods aren't within a couple grams, things can get out of shape very quickly *ta autostik*) and the longer the stroke, the more critical the balancing is for revvability. But balancing is only half the battle, the engine has to breathe and get petch in to fill the combustion chamber quickly. this is harder the longer the chamber is.. possibly the reason why there are so few tractors racing these days.
the centrifugal forces generated by a stroker crank are huge. Volkswagen cases are pretty strong, and can take a hammering, but even they can only take so much before they start to become over-stressed and fatigue.
the ability of the engine to aspirate efficiently gets worse and worse the longer the cylinders. 'more cubes' is great, but a longer stroke is not necessarily the way to get it.
craig: how high does your puny 1916cc rev?
just wondering how close you are getting to "mechanical carnage"
*beats head against wall*
*throws logic out the window*
*waits for the excuses on dyno day*
Peter Leonard 路
anyone know when 'dyno day' is? :o
is there a dyno day?
where?
who?
what?
wouldn't mind knowing what my tired old non-steroid 1916 is doing these days. i changed the spark plugs for the first time after about 100,000 ks, two weeks ago, just out of interest to see if it made a diff. it did. no splutter!
woohoo!
oo and a question, anyone here found the LRP is not all that good for ex-leaded vehicles? is premium unleaded+valve protection any better?
just interested to see what ppl think.
馃檪
is there a dyno day?
where?
who?
what?
wouldn't mind knowing what my tired old non-steroid 1916 is doing these days. i changed the spark plugs for the first time after about 100,000 ks, two weeks ago, just out of interest to see if it made a diff. it did. no splutter!
woohoo!
oo and a question, anyone here found the LRP is not all that good for ex-leaded vehicles? is premium unleaded+valve protection any better?
just interested to see what ppl think.
馃檪
70AutoStik 路
Sure it would be possible to make a VW engine rev to 12,000rpm. The Porche 958 (a Le Mans car, same basic rules as F1) was a derivative of the type 4 with a couple extra cylinders. Mind you, they welded the heads to the cylinders and used titanium valves and springs! 馃榾
P.S. Triple springs are available for VW heads, they need CrMo rods of course; which are adjusted to zero lash. Such spring pressure is for strip engines, of course, the time between rebuilds (even on aftermarket heads,) would not be practical for the street.
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by 70AutoStik]
P.S. Triple springs are available for VW heads, they need CrMo rods of course; which are adjusted to zero lash. Such spring pressure is for strip engines, of course, the time between rebuilds (even on aftermarket heads,) would not be practical for the street.
[Edited on 26-4-2003 by 70AutoStik]
KruizinKombi 路
I love reading this thread!! 馃榾
Craig Torrens 路
馃榾馃榾馃榾
Mister Hoodjacks 路
Who cares about revs anyway? Aren't results more important?
56astro 路
Looks to me like the free-thinking, open-minded innovators are beginning to out number the closed-minded dinosaurs.
I too am getting a real kick out of reading this.
The results of the next dyno day and drag day will be a great comparison. It's one thing to make big power, it's another thing to make big power quickly!
I too am getting a real kick out of reading this.
The results of the next dyno day and drag day will be a great comparison. It's one thing to make big power, it's another thing to make big power quickly!
Bug_racer 路
So everyone is saying that triple springs is a No-No , the other alternative is titanium valves and dual springs which will rev to about 8500 safely . Not bad but at $130 for each valve it ain't cheap . I also have a feeling 51 Webbers will be the order of the day . Then you have the compression ratio increased to compensate for the extra revs to get more efficiency . Then the extra heat goes in . And you gotta cool the motor down . Its a viscious circle . The easiest and cheapest way out of it is to get a watercooled car and build that up . I may be living in a cave building the same motor as some guy in the states . But I'm not prepared to outlay any more $$$$ to find out how to get more power from the car by revving it . When you throw a rod out your block at 8000 rpm you'll be thinking twice about outlaying money on making the car rev more . Personally I beleive Pobjoy is starting to live to far in the past . His motors are good , BUT , why hasn't he done any research into turbo's , or superchargers . Even fuel injection is out of his league . Technology is progress .
Mister Hoodjacks 路
And reliably!56astro wrote:Looks to me like the free-thinking, open-minded innovators are beginning to out number the closed-minded dinosaurs.
I too am getting a real kick out of reading this.
The results of the next dyno day and drag day will be a great comparison. It's one thing to make big power, it's another thing to make big power quickly!
Mister Hoodjacks 路
Wasn't Pobjoy the first man on the planet to do 150mph through the 1/4 mile on a motor bike? Supercharged? In 1975?!Bug_racer wrote:So everyone is saying that triple springs is a No-No , the other alternative is titanium valves and dual springs which will rev to about 8500 safely . Not bad but at $130 for each valve it ain't cheap . I also have a feeling 51 Webbers will be the order of the day . Then you have the compression ratio increased to compensate for the extra revs to get more efficiency . Then the extra heat goes in . And you gotta cool the motor down . Its a viscious circle . The easiest and cheapest way out of it is to get a watercooled car and build that up . I may be living in a cave building the same motor as some guy in the states . But I'm not prepared to outlay any more $$$$ to find out how to get more power from the car by revving it . When you throw a rod out your block at 8000 rpm you'll be thinking twice about outlaying money on making the car rev more . Personally I beleive Pobjoy is starting to live to far in the past . His motors are good , BUT , why hasn't he done any research into turbo's , or superchargers . Even fuel injection is out of his league . Technology is progress .
Peter Leonard 路
Bug_Racer:
"Personally I beleive Pobjoy is starting to live to far in the past . His motors are good , BUT , why hasn't he done any research into turbo's , or superchargers . Even fuel injection is out of his league . Technology is progress ."
actually, i believe stan's open wheeler 1916 might be fuel injected, but i'm not sure.. don't quote me.. anyone know?
I do know however that it's been revving to 9000 rpm for years and mysteriously no rods have poked their ugly heads out of his case.
also, stan has more experience with superchargers than i've had hot dinners, and has built (and rebuilt) heads for turboed beetles. the problem with going that way is expense and longevity and heat. check your facts, Bug_racer. Superchargers and turbos just aren't practical for street use, which is stan's bread and butter. There IS a rumour going around that he's going to drop a blower on his open wheeler some time soon.... I've seen it. 馃榾
the reason he hasn't done it years ago is simple, he want's to win in a naturally aspirated VW so his detractors can't say "yeah well, if i had a blower i'd be doing the same times"
Stan builds engines for practical use. The fact that he races around in the SAME engine he builds kinda makes sense.
When the nutbags out there finally capitulate to his excessive winning, he'll go all out and change racing categories. and a supercharged 1916 in the back of his openwheeler will just be for fun, instead of what it is now... a reminder to the big mouthed how well he builds engines, and a really loud advertisement of pure, achievable power for prospective customers. go to a hillclimb one day, have a word, let him give you the lowdown. he'd love to have a yarn.:thumb
personally i'm a bit worried about how insanely fast a supercharged 1916 is gonna go. And so are a lot of other people, for different reasons. *rahh rahh rahh*馃槈
"Personally I beleive Pobjoy is starting to live to far in the past . His motors are good , BUT , why hasn't he done any research into turbo's , or superchargers . Even fuel injection is out of his league . Technology is progress ."
actually, i believe stan's open wheeler 1916 might be fuel injected, but i'm not sure.. don't quote me.. anyone know?
I do know however that it's been revving to 9000 rpm for years and mysteriously no rods have poked their ugly heads out of his case.
also, stan has more experience with superchargers than i've had hot dinners, and has built (and rebuilt) heads for turboed beetles. the problem with going that way is expense and longevity and heat. check your facts, Bug_racer. Superchargers and turbos just aren't practical for street use, which is stan's bread and butter. There IS a rumour going around that he's going to drop a blower on his open wheeler some time soon.... I've seen it. 馃榾
the reason he hasn't done it years ago is simple, he want's to win in a naturally aspirated VW so his detractors can't say "yeah well, if i had a blower i'd be doing the same times"
Stan builds engines for practical use. The fact that he races around in the SAME engine he builds kinda makes sense.
When the nutbags out there finally capitulate to his excessive winning, he'll go all out and change racing categories. and a supercharged 1916 in the back of his openwheeler will just be for fun, instead of what it is now... a reminder to the big mouthed how well he builds engines, and a really loud advertisement of pure, achievable power for prospective customers. go to a hillclimb one day, have a word, let him give you the lowdown. he'd love to have a yarn.:thumb
personally i'm a bit worried about how insanely fast a supercharged 1916 is gonna go. And so are a lot of other people, for different reasons. *rahh rahh rahh*馃槈
vwmachine 路
This thread, na I mean this Forum is the battle of the bitches, I can't help but get involved but don't have time too read it its too long.:cry
Peter lenard and others if you piss in his pockets any more you will drown the por little bugger(the Man that is).
Last time I saw his expensive open wheeler some years back at nambucca it was beaten by one beaded bloke in an old hack of a car with carbys and a fan-house, the 'man' tossed his helmut in the mud馃榾
He run a pre-historic mechanical injection I think.
Wes (HONS) you sure your not a bean counter,I checked out your budget, wow thats optomistic may be you should work at the ABS(not a brake shop)
with a budget like that youd get the job may be in defense they can loose mega bucks.:o
Why don't you just buy a jap shit-box and don't promote vw buggery.
That Baja is seriously butchered.
馃槧
It is plainley obvious that you can not make much power with a 1916 unless you tweek it to the point of ridiculous, ie 12.5 :1 , expensive heads etc.and then it's a grenade.:cry
Rolly
Peter lenard and others if you piss in his pockets any more you will drown the por little bugger(the Man that is).
Last time I saw his expensive open wheeler some years back at nambucca it was beaten by one beaded bloke in an old hack of a car with carbys and a fan-house, the 'man' tossed his helmut in the mud馃榾
He run a pre-historic mechanical injection I think.
Wes (HONS) you sure your not a bean counter,I checked out your budget, wow thats optomistic may be you should work at the ABS(not a brake shop)
with a budget like that youd get the job may be in defense they can loose mega bucks.:o
Why don't you just buy a jap shit-box and don't promote vw buggery.
That Baja is seriously butchered.
馃槧
It is plainley obvious that you can not make much power with a 1916 unless you tweek it to the point of ridiculous, ie 12.5 :1 , expensive heads etc.and then it's a grenade.:cry
Rolly
vwmachine 路
My printer is going bananas ,this is a long thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer:beer
Rolly ....burp
Rolly ....burp
Peter Leonard 路
hahahahahaahahahahhahhaahha vwmachine,
'expensive' open wheeler
hahhhhahaaa :P
i'm sure it's worth a lot, but probably more for vintage collectors. relative to what is it "expensive"? that ol thing has been around for yeeeeaarrrs. bloody thing causes more trouble than it's worth...
in fact he once christened it 'recalcitrant'
or (willfully disobedient)
enough dodgy people have badmouthed stan's ability, that most people who know first hand are happy to tell the truth. notice he's not interested in answering to idiots anymore *count's stan's posts*
hmmm... NONE :o
if that's pissing in his pocket, i personally hope it's a big pocket.馃榾
anyone else got any piss?
:puke
'expensive' open wheeler
hahhhhahaaa :P
i'm sure it's worth a lot, but probably more for vintage collectors. relative to what is it "expensive"? that ol thing has been around for yeeeeaarrrs. bloody thing causes more trouble than it's worth...
in fact he once christened it 'recalcitrant'
or (willfully disobedient)
enough dodgy people have badmouthed stan's ability, that most people who know first hand are happy to tell the truth. notice he's not interested in answering to idiots anymore *count's stan's posts*
hmmm... NONE :o
if that's pissing in his pocket, i personally hope it's a big pocket.馃榾
anyone else got any piss?
:puke
amazer 路
Is this a typo? If its not... errr HULLO ANYBODY HOME???Peter Leonard wrote:Superchargers and turbos just aren't practical for street use.
Is that your theory or is that what stan says? Putting a blower on his car would send him into the over 3 litre class where he would find things very tough.There IS a rumour going around that he's going to drop a blower on his open wheeler some time soon.... I've seen it. 馃榾
the reason he hasn't done it years ago is simple, he want's to win in a naturally aspirated VW so his detractors can't say "yeah well, if i had a blower i'd be doing the same times"
Absolutely. And good on him. An aussie veedub icon. But even stan cant change the laws of physics. I dont see anyone badmouthing stan at all.Stan builds engines for practical use. The fact that he races around in the SAME engine he builds kinda makes sense.
[Edited on 28-4-2003 by amazer]
Che Castro 路
haha i thought it was a type too, look at the Japanese car performance scene, turbo is everything, power on tap when u want it, and it's tame when u don't want it. I mean porsche was one of the pioneers of turbocharging in the early days with the 911 Turbo. Turbocharging or supercharging increases driveability, and properly setup it can run cool and live long 馃檪Peter Leonard wrote:Superchargers and turbos just aren't practical for street use
Lets start another bitch fight!
Craig Torrens 路
Bug Racer you have no idea about Stan do you ?
jakriz 路
I saw a sticker made for Easter by Richard that said 'Jesus, save me from your followers', maybe we need one made that says 'Stan, save me from your followers'.
regards
Jak
regards
Jak
Bizarre 路
fukengruven!!!
Craig Torrens 路
LETS ALL GET THIS THREAD BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC. OPEN A NEW TOPIC TO COVER ANYTHING NOT RELATED !!!
This has nothing to do with my engine combo, builder, or anything else, except it may turn people of this forum ! I Enjoy the healthy debates and comical read/responses, but maybe we should have it in the "chat" thread or "Engine combo" topic or something ???馃槈
This has nothing to do with my engine combo, builder, or anything else, except it may turn people of this forum ! I Enjoy the healthy debates and comical read/responses, but maybe we should have it in the "chat" thread or "Engine combo" topic or something ???馃槈
Peter Leonard 路
hulllooo
sorry. I thought we were talking about supercharging and turboing veedubs....
not easy to jam a blower in a beetle. i can barely get my damn arm in there...
here re-read this 'typo'
superchargers and turbos aren't practical for reliable daily driving in a volkswagen.say, a 1916cc. aircooled. like this forum used to be. now it's more like air-warmed.
go the bitchfest!! woohooooo!!
馃榾
of course this is my humble opinion. please feel free to disagree and rock up to the drags in your 'daily driver' supercharged dub :thumb
and then let me see the cooling system..
sorry. I thought we were talking about supercharging and turboing veedubs....
not easy to jam a blower in a beetle. i can barely get my damn arm in there...
here re-read this 'typo'
superchargers and turbos aren't practical for reliable daily driving in a volkswagen.say, a 1916cc. aircooled. like this forum used to be. now it's more like air-warmed.
go the bitchfest!! woohooooo!!
馃榾
of course this is my humble opinion. please feel free to disagree and rock up to the drags in your 'daily driver' supercharged dub :thumb
and then let me see the cooling system..
vwmachine 路
Tah Hi Pete,
Lets just clear a thing or two up.
That car (the mans racer)is a fraction of the wieght and age of the one that beat him at valla , with fan-house +muffler and old bloke who said he only paid $1500 for this old f-vee ?? I was amazed at how noisy the mans car was no muffler, alchohol etc etc but it has that crappy 1916 and it sounded awful !!
I was more amazed at the out-put of the quieter car !
Rolly馃檨馃檨
Lets just clear a thing or two up.
That car (the mans racer)is a fraction of the wieght and age of the one that beat him at valla , with fan-house +muffler and old bloke who said he only paid $1500 for this old f-vee ?? I was amazed at how noisy the mans car was no muffler, alchohol etc etc but it has that crappy 1916 and it sounded awful !!
I was more amazed at the out-put of the quieter car !
Rolly馃檨馃檨
vanderaj 路
My car has a 1796 cc engine running a K03 turbo, and makes a fine daily driver. 馃檪
It has 20 valves... and a water jacket, front mounted intercooler, oil cooled turbo bearings. Makes about 110-120 kW at the flywheel on a good day when the diverter valve is not stuffed as it is right now.
The car is roughly the right shape, but the engine is not where you'd expect it.
Andrew
It has 20 valves... and a water jacket, front mounted intercooler, oil cooled turbo bearings. Makes about 110-120 kW at the flywheel on a good day when the diverter valve is not stuffed as it is right now.
The car is roughly the right shape, but the engine is not where you'd expect it.
Andrew
vwmachine 路
Hi Andrew ,
It sounds cool and very fast, if you want it re-chipped I know just the man, not wanting to push his barrow publiclyso U2u me.
Can you reply to this forum the bore and stroke (in mm )and rev range of this engine in std form ?
Well see what all these dudes say about works strokers .:kiss
It sounds cool and very fast, if you want it re-chipped I know just the man, not wanting to push his barrow publiclyso U2u me.
Can you reply to this forum the bore and stroke (in mm )and rev range of this engine in std form ?
Well see what all these dudes say about works strokers .:kiss
Baja Wes 路
jeez I am away for a weekend and I get back and there are 2 more pages, and people slinging sh*t left right and center. if this post had any serious replies in it I might get offended :repuke
Peter, yes your valve clearances do different things with chrome moly pushrods. It just means you have to set them to a very small gap cold (cos the clearance gets bigger when the engine warms up).
And for the people here who don't know, I had a 1915 for many years so I think I am entitled to have an opinion on them.
And since my V6 conversion has pissed you off so much, it reminds me of why I did it in the first place. :vader
There are plenty of people here who like the V6 conversion, and most people can see the reasons why I did it. As for butchery, so making a baja is ok, but putting a different engine in is not. :puke
Peter, yes your valve clearances do different things with chrome moly pushrods. It just means you have to set them to a very small gap cold (cos the clearance gets bigger when the engine warms up).
And for the people here who don't know, I had a 1915 for many years so I think I am entitled to have an opinion on them.
I can't quite figure out what your talking about. "optimistic" for my budget? But I have finished the project, that was my budget!vwmachine wrote:Wes you sure your not a bean counter,I checked out your budget, wow thats optomistic may be you should work at the ABS(not a brake shop)
with a budget like that youd get the job may be in defense they can loose mega bucks.:o
Why don't you just buy a jap shit-box and don't promote vw buggery.
That Baja is seriously butchered.
馃槧
Rolly
And since my V6 conversion has pissed you off so much, it reminds me of why I did it in the first place. :vader
There are plenty of people here who like the V6 conversion, and most people can see the reasons why I did it. As for butchery, so making a baja is ok, but putting a different engine in is not. :puke
amazer 路
my daily driven/raced for many years turbo number 1Peter Leonard wrote:I thought we were talking about supercharging and turboing veedubs....
amazer 路
my daily driven for at least 6 months turbo number 2.Peter Leonard wrote:I thought we were talking about supercharging and turboing veedubs....
First one had external oil cooler, this one does not.
amazer 路
Steve Carter's turbo beetle (yeah it is watercooled but it still fits)
another watercooled but its still turbo ad fits
not exactly hi tech with draw thru SU but its an aircooled turbo that fits
another
All these pics form the nationals. There were more turbo cars there but the pics never made it to club veedub website.
Keith Hausler had a very quick turbo oval that was daily driven too.
Just a few to get you started.
another watercooled but its still turbo ad fits
not exactly hi tech with draw thru SU but its an aircooled turbo that fits
another
All these pics form the nationals. There were more turbo cars there but the pics never made it to club veedub website.
Keith Hausler had a very quick turbo oval that was daily driven too.
Just a few to get you started.
Baja Wes 路
chris, I loved seeing your turbo type 3 getting the crap flogged out of it a few years ago at raleigh. I got some video footage of it somewhere, including the big lose down the straight. man that was funny to watch 馃榾
not as entertaining as luke pell in his turbo offroad buggy though 馃榾
not as entertaining as luke pell in his turbo offroad buggy though 馃榾