I've swapped my '68 notch from swing axle to IRS using the original "fork" and welding IRS brackets to it. I would like to know how much preload is needed for the torsion bars on the spring plates. (I am using wagon torsion bars in a sedan so thicker and stiffer than stock). Can I measure it easily? The front is lowered (ball joint) by about 40mm.
Also, is there a way to ensure that the inner / outer spline relationships are exactly the same on both sides? Obviously this is important for an equal spring rate on the left and right.
Any web links on reassembly etc or advice is greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Toby :thumb
1500S ·
The difference between inner and outer splines give the minimum rotation adjustment amount. All you need is a good protractor from a combination set (eg. More and Wright). Set the sills level by jacking and packing and use the settings in the manual for your guide. Try rotating the spring plates upwards around 3-4 degrees for starters and see what it looks like. Both sides must be within the tolerance given in manual.
DH
type3lover ·
Cheers DH,
I don't have a manual and therefore I don't know how much tension to preload the torsion bars with before bolting the spring plates up. The preload will affect the ride height won't it??
I have equal measurements now on both sides from the end of the spring plate to where the bump stops would meet their "cups" (measured with a ruler).
I was hoping that someone that has lowered a type 3 might have measurements or something that takes the hit and miss out of this awkward job.
Cheers,
Toby :thumb
1303Steve ·
Hi
Even setting the angles up with a protractor there is still a varaition because of the age sag in your torsion bars, so to get it exactly right you you may need to do it a few times over. There should be factory settings for the thicker bars in a workshop manual.
Steve
humpty ·
You really should invest in a good workshop manual.... The best are the factory ones, Gregories are ok.... Get the book and do it right.... But like Steve said.... Its trial and error unfortunately.... No way around it...
type3lover ·
I never thought that the bars could lose their "spring" after time.
I know that a manual would help, but I've never had one - only the idiot's book and a bit of common sense. I won't have one before this job is done, so anyone that has some info etc about this job please don't hold out on me ;-)
The rear suspension is going to be reinstalled shortly, and so I'll just get them even and bolt it all up and see what happens.
It must also depend upon wheel and tyre size etc I'd imagine.
Oh, and also when I had it together before the left rear wheel was sticking out more than the right one - that is the left tyre protruded past the guard by a good 15mm, but the right one was fine. I think that the tyres are the same dimensions etc. What's up with this?
Cheers!
Toby 👍
humpty ·
type3lover wrote:Oh, and also when I had it together before the left rear wheel was sticking out more than the right one - that is the left tyre protruded past the guard by a good 15mm, but the right one was fine. I think that the tyres are the same dimensions etc. What's up with this?
Holy cow!.... things to look out for here....
Are the guards straight and even? Does one have have a 'flare'? The other stock?
Are the wheels the same....Really... Are they the same?
BUG, TIII wheels are not the same!... There are many different widths and offsets to consider...
Are the wheels stockers or widened? aftermarket?
Are the tyres the same in everyway? Brand, width, diameter, profile?
As far as setting the ride hieght.... Its suck it and see time.... You will have to just us trial and error until it is right.... Just remember to use your datum marks on the end of the torsion bar and the spring plate spline, and on the spring plate and torsion housing relationship, and on the axle tube and spring plate flange... If you didn't put marks on these lcations when you removed the parts in the first place there is not a lot you can do about finding a starting place....
Best of luck!
type3lover ·
That's pretty helpful, thanks!
The wheels are from a beetle and are only temporary. They are Globe bathurst 14 x 6 I think.
The guards are stock and the body has been restored etc and I have had the car most of it's life with no accidents so I'm thinking that all is well there. It might just be the wheel and tyre combo hopefully!!!! There's a retread on one of them but the tyre sizes both read the same.
Anyhow, this job is proving to be a real b@#tard! What is the secret in reinstalling rear torsion bars, trailing arms etc and then getting the whole lot bolted up? Nothing wants to line up and I am an my wit's end! I don't remember it being that hard last time!
Cheers!
Toby 👍
PS I just checked the rims - 6JJ x 14
PPS Does anyone know the correct reassembly sequence for the rear suspension?
[ Edited on 21-5-2006 by type3lover ]
humpty ·
These scans should help you get it back together....
As for setting the height.... your on your own....
Are the tyres the same brand? Even if they have the same sizes on the sidewall it doesn't mean that are exactly the same.... I have had many tyres in the past from different manufactures that were marked the same but were actually very different in width and hieght! Retreads will aslo make a difference.... Chuck'em out... Get a air of tyres thatare identical in every way.... the set you car up....
1500S ·
Don't forget the torsion bars are pre-stressed and have an arrow for the direction of rotation.
The angle of the spring plate unloaded is 22 deg +/- 50 minutes standard on the TL (Fastback) double joint setup. Haven't got the settings for the notch and square for double joint. The S/B swing axle have two payloads, the two settings are 21 deg 30 minutes and 18 deg 30 minutes for the lighter loaded one. Both +/- 50 minutes. You can work out with trig the close amount of rotation for lowering if you like. By the way. There isn't any "pre-load" on the bars. They are set with them rotating free.
DH
humpty ·
Thats good info Dallas.... I think thats in the factory manual I have here..... I should underline that....
1500S ·
I can't remember what manual I have now, maybe Gregory's or Scientific. Actually the old swing axle is easier with less things to do but both are the same with the setting sequence. If he wants to drive through the bush from Dural I'll lend him the book or copy the pages plus protractor! I'm only about 3/4 hour from him.
DH
type3lover ·
Guys, you are legends!
The scans have given me the confidence to get back out there and have another crack at it. The first go I set it way too low (some would probably argue that there is no such thing!). I understand the protractor method now but I don't fancy a trip through the bush but I really appreciate the offer 1500S. If I simply cannot get it right I'll get in touch with you.
Anyhow I have done the left side and will have a look at the right when I can.
What sucks is that I still haven't replaced my broken ratchet and it takes forever to do all the unbolting and bolting up again without one!!
When I talked about "preload" before I meant the degree of rotation that the spring plate has to be jacked up so it clears the spring plate stop and can all be bolted up tight.
I'll post pics one of these days!
Thanks again for now and I'll let you know how it progresses,
Toby :thumb
humpty ·
Pleasure.... Now I just have to find the time to get my Notch on the road!
type3lover ·
Humpty, I have the time...just need the $$$!!!
type3lover ·
1st pic of front...too low because it scrapes on full lock
type3lover ·
2nd pic of front
type3lover ·
I need to rethink the whole job when I fit different wheels and tyres to the car don't I? Bugger...
humpty ·
Those rims have shocking offsets..... they are typical 70's style things... Very hard to get a car low with those things at the best of times, but with fat 70's style tyre too... just not gonna happen.... If you want to stick with those rims, go smaller in tyre size.... like a 195/50 or 55..... You could go with a more modern rim (FWD offset) or even some narrower rims wth a zero or negative offset, you'll be much better off and you can go loads lower..... Of course the lower you go the more likely you are to bind up the ball-joints.... A small price to pay for cool looks!... 😂.... I like my cars very low!.... My Square runs 17x7.5's on the front with 205/45's without any problems.... but Im going lower with the Notch and Ill be running these same rims..... So to get it lower, Im fitting a TI LP beam with adjusters and drop spindles..... not for everyone sure, but if you want pan dragn low, you have to do it.... and if you want big rubber and low, you really have to do it!
type3lover ·
Yeah these rims are just something I threw on so I could roll the car around (and burn around the block when the urge grabs me!) They are from my ex-gf's '76 convertible beetle and they looked great on tht car, but not on mine. I don't know what rims / tyres i am going to run yet but the ones on your square sound pretty cool. Got a pic?
I think I'll sell mine with the new centrecaps with Wolfsberg crest or swap with someone. I'll start another thread about rims...someone on here must have a set to part with!
Cheers for all the help!
Toby :thumb
[ Edited on 27-5-2006 by type3lover ]
humpty ·
I have some 16x7.5 with virtually new tyres on them.... But the PCD is 100! (stock TI/III is 130PCD).... Its the same as GOLF, BMW and most 4 bolt JAP stuff.... Thats what I have on the Square too..... Its a bit of work to do, but well worth it.... Plus I have big brakes on the car too!.... 300mm Supra rotor with RX7 4 piston calipers on the front and Magna discs and calipers on the back.... Can you say it stops!!!!
bus914 ·
type3lover do you have any progress pix of the irs conversion? did you have to cut holes in the frame horns to weld the brackets in?
type3lover ·
Unfortunately I didn't take progress pics of the job. I had the brackets welded in by Hellbug and I don't think there was a need to cut holes but I can't be sure. Sorry.
Cheers, Toby :thumb
nbturbo ·
All the conversions I have done-I have used the genuine brackets cut from donors-and you have to cut the horns to let in the bracket.I bought 2 sets of custom replacement brackets some years ago to try,and both sets were only good enough to go into a rubbish bin.
bus914 ·
where are Hellbug now?
and does cutting into the horns and then welding weaken and stress them?
humpty ·
Jeffs up the central coast I think.... Somewhere up there.... Dumone knows for sure...Seek him out...As for the diagonal arm pivot point.... I have never converted a swinger TIII (Though I will be soon) rear subframe, but I have done a Bug (I have just put an IRS rear subframe in, in the past, but I want more transaxle mount strength back there with this car!)..... But the anwser to your question bus914, is no... If the mounting and welding is done correctly there are now strength issues... It will be the same as OEM IRS points on a IRS Bug....
type3lover ·
Sadly, Hellbug closed a few years ago. That makes me realise what a long time it's been since my project had the IRS done. Nbturbo is right - the original brackets from a later model donor are the way to go.
There's another problem now with mine...one of the end caps has fallen out of the end of the torsion tube that becomes the spring plates. What's the safest way to get it back into place without risking damage from heat (welding). Surely it doesn't just tap back in?
Cheers, T
nbturbo ·
If you mean the welch plug looking thing that keeps the crud from the end of the torsion bar-tap it back in all the way and just peen the end of the tube to keep it in.Clean the recess out fully though B4 you start.Last one one of mine that fell out became lost-so I just used a brass welch plug-lightly skimmed the outer diameter on the grinder until it was a tight fit-tapped it all the way home around the edge,and then hit it in the gutz to lock it in-will never come out again.
type3lover ·
Sweet! Thanks mate what a relief! I would go and do it now except that it's bloody freezing in Syd at the moment!!! BRRRR!!!!!!
hellbugged ·
.
VWCOOL ·
f-n top chart!
Um, I assume the 'spring plate angle' means 'CHANGE in spring plate angle'?
[ Edited on 2-6-2006 by VWCOOL ]
type3lover ·
That's great thanks dumone!
How does one "count" the number of splines that are being rotated before sliding the whole lot back together? It just doesn't feel precise to me...or that may just be the beer factor last time I tried!
More importantly can I reset it to standard height and work from there without too much of a headache. These must be deviations from standard right? I did not mark the relationships originally...stoopid 😵💫
Cheers! T
[ Edited on 2-6-2006 by type3lover ]
VWCOOL ·
It takes a bit of 'feel'. I do it by placing some 'twist effort' on the bars with your hands at the same time as slowly pulling the bar out of the splines (inner or outer) AS SOON as the bar is free of its splines, you turn it gently by one spline and feed it back in again.
nbturbo ·
When you first release the tension from the spring plate and B4 you pull it away from the splines-scribe a line on the flange of the torsion bar tube-using the spring plate as a guide-this way you will always a reference point of what the spring plate angle was when you started.
type3lover ·
Well I wish that I had done that when I started to dismantle it all those years ago!
So VW didn't put marks or anything for ease of assembly at the original setting? How did they do it in the factory? Surely they didn't get a protractor out and measure it??
humpty ·
The factory had a 'base' setting that was standard. The bars do have markings on them but it is unlikely that the marks ment much in this regard, the factory just slid the spring plate on, which is aligned at a certain spot.... Prolly with the lower retainer bolt hole or something..... But because you haven't got a starting point, you haven't got a datum, so really you only have trial and error until you have it where you want.... And the only way to get exactly is to have everything ready to bolt on.... Wheels, tyres, engine in the car, interior... everything..... Only then can you hope to have the car set to the correct spot.... But be warned.... You will more than likely have to re-set it after a few miles, as the car will 'settle'.... Im sure someone on here would have an idea of the OE datum for a stock height setting.... Maybe Dallas would know.... He's a stock TIII dude....
type3lover ·
Yeah with no datum point I'm clutching at straws!
The engine and glass is installed but there is no interior yet - I'll guess the weight at being 60 kg including front seats. Should I also compensate for just the driver sitting in the car? 90kg in the driver's seat must place more load on the right rear torsion bars (front too!).
Another question: If I install the torsion bars to the inner pivot points on the subframe does it matter what the alignment of the inner splines is and will the outer splines be in identical positions? That would make things easier as I could then use the protractor method for the spring plates but after seeing the chart posted by Dumone I am confused as to where the original positions for the inner splines are!
I really appreciate all the help.
Cheers, T 👍
humpty ·
To my way of thinking it makes no difference where the inner spline is positioned.... The inner to outer spline relations hip is the same (ie: the number of splines will not change as the bar is turned).... Just chuck them in, making sure you have them in the correct side of the car (ie: left one in the left side of the car, etc...) and adjust the outer spline accordingly.... The only time you need to be concerned about the inner spline is if you are moving that to make your adjustment..... Dont move it.... Simple!
type3lover ·
Sounds like a plan. I was pretty sure the inners would not matter but there's always that element of doubt...but as you say as long as they are not moved their relationship with the outers will remain consistent.
Might have another go with my spirit level and $1.30 protractor, but now while it is soooo cold and wet here in Syd!
Cheers, Toby :thumb
humpty ·
Borrowed a camera.... Attached are some images of the rims and tyres I have on my Square..... And the brakes too!.... Should give you some ideas as to what can be done.... To get this car any lower in the front you will have to do what Im doing to my Notch..... A narrowed LP Bug beam with drop spindles and suitable mods to make it all fit..... Enjoy!
type3lover ·
That's awesome Humpty! How does it ride? I worry it might get too bumpy to be comfortable.
Also, I realise now that my current rims (the globe bathurst's) are no good to have on when trying to set the best ride height.
I'm on the case trying to get some more suitable rims & tyres.
humpty ·
It rides fine.... And it stops way better too!.... Personally I prefer to feel the road and not wonder all over it!.... Big fat baloon tyres move about too much IMHO.... A nice firm sidewall is a much better option on the street.... Just make sure you buy the best tyres you can with the correct axle load rating for your car.... Most tyres are made for cars that weigh a load more than your average VW....Tose sort of tyres tend to be a bit 'stiff' on the road.....These tyres on the Sqaure are the best tyres I have ever owned... They are quiet, sticky in the dry and the wet, don't 'tram track' and are wearing pretty well..... but the car is not low enough for me yet.... The notch will be a lot lower!....
1500S ·
>Another question: If I install the torsion bars to the inner pivot points on the subframe does it matter what the alignment of the inner splines is and will the outer splines be in identical positions? That would make things easier as I could then use the protractor method for the spring plates but after seeing the chart posted by Dumone I am confused as to where the original positions for the inner splines are!
I really appreciate all the help.<
If you have them out, you will have to go through the total setting of them from scratch to factory settings with the vehicle level. Once you have established this setting it is up to you if you only want to rotate the outer spline to lower. You could go straight to dumone's chart if you like to chance the amounts BUT they must be equal within the limits on both sides. 😵💫 Smile! You have no other choices! How accurate is the $1.30 protractor? You can still borrow the one I have!