Im hoping you good folk may be able to help me short cut some thinking time. I am building a 60 bettle for track work and Dutton etc. It will be a mid mounted ej20t using a front wheel drive subaru gearbox. The help I need is any info on gearlinkage(I have seen somewhere a rep porche) and on suspenson changes ie coilover spring poundage etc. Knowledge is all empowering and any help hints or directions would be greatly appreciated. THANKS
boof2332 ·
Hey mate,
I have been looking at doing a mid mount beetle for a while as i have a mid mounted ej20tt in a 914. It uses the 4 wheel drive box with the rear drive removed and a special diff. the back cover plate incorporates the mount to the body. The linkage is a bit hard to describe although works a treat.
Matt
VWCOOL ·
You 'are' building or 'thinking' of building?
sub60 ·
vwcool, I am building. Boof I was wondering if you new how make, or the design to make the linkage. I am using a Liberty front wheel drive box as it lighter,cheaper and will still take all the after market go gear.THANKS
VWCOOL ·
Cool! I think Dutton etc require street registration so you may want to look into the legals...?
jakjones ·
what class can u race in with a mid engine beetle?
sub60 ·
The legals with the car are now being nutted out with engineer etc. The class I would compete on regular weekend days is 2L 2wd modified, same with Dutton,Targa wont let me I dont think, no class. Mate of mine was not able to run in the Targa this year with his heavily modifiedv8 jag. If anyone could help with info or web direction as discussed, would be greatful
gull ·
I have built a ej22 mid mount with an auto in a trike , very fast , wrx coil overs
sub60 ·
Good on you Gull,love to think out of the box. yours must be slightly dangerous fun. Did you have issues licencing
Craig Torrens ·
sub60 wrote:The legals with the car are now being nutted out with engineer etc. The class I would compete on regular weekend days is 2L 2wd modified, same with Dutton,Targa wont let me I dont think, no class. Mate of mine was not able to run in the Targa this year with his heavily modifiedv8 jag. If anyone could help with info or web direction as discussed, would be greatful
Best to speak with CAMS, sometimes what seems to be a great idea/combination won't actually be eligible for a recognised class.
An Engineer may not be aware of the specific 'race' class requirements.
VWCOOL ·
...and race class requirements often don't correlate to what is allowed on the roads. But jeez, if its possible to build and register a middie/WRX dak-dak, it would be an animal!
boof2332 ·
Hey Mate,
Im sure the input for the linkage for the box would be similar. Mine is really trick...What is your email and I will send you photos.
I was going to get a half cut and fab the hole front suspension in the rear.
Would have to be registered as an ICV?
Call me on 0416 115 993
Matt
sub60 ·
Cams runs events such as Targa will have no class for me. Though can run in the non competitive division, I believe. Each state has varyng licencing requirements, but believe it can be done.Boof with reguard to the half cut front, for licencing it is better to keep as much of the original rear end as possible, other wise I would make a full chassis with front and rear, which would be to expensive for me. My email is CRYSTALBROOKCOTTAGE@BIGPOND.COM.AU
I will call you. THANKS
MIKE
JVLR ·
A full tube chassis$$$$$$$$$$will need a big bank account.Mid mount you still will need plenty $$$$.Whats your budget?...........JVL
VWCOOL ·
sub60 wrote:Cams runs events such as Targa will have no class for me. Though can run in the non competitive division, I believe. Each state has varyng licencing requirements, but believe it can be done.Boof with reguard to the half cut front, for licencing it is better to keep as much of the original rear end as possible, other wise I would make a full chassis with front and rear, which would be to expensive for me. My email is CRYSTALBROOKCOTTAGE@BIGPOND.COM.AU
I will call you. THANKS
MIKE
With the engine in the middle, it'll have to be just about a full chassis anyway and due to major architecture changes, comply with 2006 ADRs, including front crash protection, side intrusion blah blah. The only way you MAY go close will be with L-bug body with strut front end; a nice match with Boof's suggestion of coil-sprung Subie strut rear. And JVL's mention of expense with tube frame - listen to the man; he knows allll about big bux with frustrating results. 😉
In other words, you want to build a Beetle-shelled Porsche 914! Good idea, but keep in mind you can buy a Boxster for under $50K these days - possibly a much nicer road and race car
[ Edited on 30-5-2006 by VWCOOL ]
sub60 ·
Yes a full chassis is expensive so I wont be doing that, the conversion is relative but I hope to keep costs down as all fabrication etc etc will be done by me and some good friends. The desire for me is to have a Beetle that goes fast, different from the pack(that includes me now with a turbo Liberty). The suspension will run full coilovers front and rear, utilising modified torsion bars and modified rear trailing arms, thats why I enquired about coilover spring rates etc. It will be a different project hopefully not to lengthy and will endeavour to post updates. Also as the car will still be registered as an early mod beetle, do not have to comply with 2006 rules. So if anybody has done modifications similar please tell me THANKS
VWCOOL ·
Ah, sorry to be a wet blanket, but with such extensive architecture changes, there's NO chance of getting it registered as a Beetle in Australia. Go to www.streetmachine.com.au and click on 'find engineer' (left side of page) and consult with someone in your area before you get in too deep! :thumb
sub60 ·
Thanks vwcool already done cheers
pete wood ·
VWCOOL wrote:Ah, sorry to be a wet blanket, but with such extensive architecture changes, there's NO chance of getting it registered as a Beetle in Australia. Go to www.streetmachine.com.au and click on 'find engineer' (left side of page) and consult with someone in your area before you get in too deep! :thumb
I almost did this with my buggy until my missus insisted on having a back seat. 🙁
My engineer was quite happy with it, after all the motor is already at the back of the car, mid mount means just turning it round so the gearbox pokes out the back rather than the motor. Besides, if you can radically change the weight distribution by ripping off a beetle body and putting on a light fibreglass body legally, just turning round the motor much less of a drama.
sub60 ·
Thanks Pete thats exactly what we are thinking. Works out there is still some room for a dicky seat, wouldnt sit it myself, but because of the cage must have as a 2 seater. Ill let you know how it goes
JVLR ·
A midmount acheivement is only for tube chassis cars.That means dollars.A tube chassis will never be approved for everyday road driving.Stick to a IRS pan move your gearbox forward a couple of inches and your budget and your pocket will be lighter and not empty.Take VWcools advice do more homework.JVL
pete wood ·
I think you'll find it's not quite that complex JVL. The sump needs to be modded, the framehorns clearanced in a few spots and a rear subframe made up to hold the gearbox still, but it's not rocket science. And as long as your engineer says it's fine then it's fine. So let him have a go, I think you might be surprised. It's just that you got all caried away and went tube chassis on yours.😀
JVLR ·
Pete,have you done one?.....have you built a full tube chassis?....not sure what his budget is but a midmount will still cost $$$$
pete wood ·
If he's already putting a decent cage in it and tying that into the chassis, can be a whole lot more work. I spent a long time working this out before I built my buggy. As I said, the only thing that stopped me was my missus.
And No, I haven't built a full tube chassis, far too much had work. But I have put a subaru motor/kombi box in the back of a buggy, and turning the motor around is not a lot more complicated than that. I mean there are a million midmount sand rails in the states. Aren't there.
JVLR ·
Arent sandrails made as a tubular frame?most ive read are!...Turning everything around(midmount)means redesigning the rear end.(tube box section)That means Engineers cert. for road approval.......JVL
sub60 ·
hi boys, please dont argue over me, Im not worth it?? On all my assessments you do not have to have a tube chassis, yes there are modifications to the rear suspension and mounting points etc dont you think if you can hang a 200+hp motor off the end of a gearbox made to hold a 50-60hp motor, it would in fact be better engineering science if that motor was properly mounted to the body driving through a gearbox of the same manufacturer with modification made correctly with the guidance of an engineer, that in fact it would be OK. All modification need approval to a degree ie different brakes, roll cages thats why we have engineers to help us! No doubt I will come across problem along the way, but it will get done, be very fast, handle better, brake better(with different brakes-engineered) be safer(with cage brakes handling tyres etc etc)than a Beetle with a subi motor bolted onto a vw gearbox. This with the guidance of the engineer and my money and time. Look forward to showing you. And as I said any helpful know how would be appreciated.THANKS
RENNWAGEN ·
Well Said sub60. A while back there was a post about a guy who stuck the front of subi in the back of a bus If he had come on here talking about BEFORE he did it a bunch of people would have told him he couldn't do it. So if you think you can, have an engineer who thinks you can please do it so the rest of us can wish we had.
sub60 ·
Thanks, I will keep you posted, it will be a fun challenge
JVLR ·
Theres no arguing:thumb:JVL
boof2332 ·
I love the idea, and worst case scenario is you have an unregistered TRACK WEAPON. Thats worst case. I am so excited that I'm going to do one as well.
I am trying to down load from my phone a full tube chassis rock crawler that we built recently. Not that expensive in tube, and with a tube puller a mig and a tig, you can pretty much make anything you want.
I am off to the shed to cut the back off a bug. Lets get some pics up asap. I have heaps, although this bloody phone do not want to send.
matt
JVLR ·
boof2332 wrote:I love the idea, and worst case scenario is you have an unregistered TRACK WEAPON. Thats worst case. I am so excited that I'm going to do one as well.
I am trying to down load from my phone a full tube chassis rock crawler that we built recently. Not that expensive in tube, and with a tube puller a mig and a tig, you can pretty much make anything you want.
I am off to the shed to cut the back off a bug. Lets get some pics up asap. I have heaps, although this bloody phone do not want to send.
matt
:o easy is it Matt! Goodluck:P
Baja Wes ·
does the subi motor fit between the spring plates / shock towers on the VW rear?
The MX6 guys told me mounting the V6 I used north south wouldn't work, lucky for me I'm stubborn 🙂
I have a couple of pix of this in a folder but i'm stuffed if I know
how to attach them... old & computor dumb!!
seagull ·
space frame ej20T
VWCOOL ·
sub60 wrote:hi boys, please dont argue over me, Im not worth it?? On all my assessments you do not have to have a tube chassis, yes there are modifications to the rear suspension and mounting points etc dont you think if you can hang a 200+hp motor off the end of a gearbox made to hold a 50-60hp motor, it would in fact be better engineering science if that motor was properly mounted to the body driving through a gearbox of the same manufacturer with modification made correctly with the guidance of an engineer, that in fact it would be OK. All modification need approval to a degree ie different brakes, roll cages thats why we have engineers to help us! No doubt I will come across problem along the way, but it will get done, be very fast, handle better, brake better(with different brakes-engineered) be safer(with cage brakes handling tyres etc etc)than a Beetle with a subi motor bolted onto a vw gearbox. This with the guidance of the engineer and my money and time. Look forward to showing you. And as I said any helpful know how would be appreciated.THANKS
Buddy, you read/sound a lot more like someone who knows what he is doing NOW that your first post! But I still don't know how you will be able to do it without ICV rego. But PLEASE use a strut front, rack-steered L-Bug as a base - it will give you more compatible camber curves etc to the Subie struts for far more predictable handling etc
seagull ·
Its going in an oval !
we pulled it out of the bush last night with a skid steer by torch light
:bounce
O I did like it lots !
VWCOOL ·
Put the roof on an L-Bug
Mate, no engineer ovr here worth his PLI would touch that
That has about half the tubing the rock crawler we made had.
JVLR. You know me, if I have the time and the tube...I'll give it a go. My normal work is quiet till september and I have the tube so....
seagull ·
I have the pipe bender as well mike !
sub60 ·
Boys and Girls, this is terrific, some great photos with the V8. I wont be using a late strut front, but thanks. Pretty sure we can get it to handle with a beam front, their a lot of know how about, which is wonderful to hear. Also it will retain a basic pan to some degree, so not a full tube out. Think is it is nearly nutted out, new debate is
whether to use an tricked auto instead, last longer. Boof just wondering if you have any photos of your guard set up on your car Thanks Mike
seagull ·
I talked to my mate Max .He is happy to help out seting up the shifter for the manual box .
I think now go manual as well , more fun , more smoke as well :P
seagull ·
I have sent you a U2u as well mike
JVLR ·
boof2332 wrote:That has about half the tubing the rock crawler we made had.
JVLR. You know me, if I have the time and the tube...I'll give it a go. My normal work is quiet till september and I have the tube so....
Matt,:thumbm8 it takes time research and learning.The designs here are very basic to what i have Matt.None of those chassis show me any proper tie in points.The shell & chassis must work as one structual item.No good just having a chassis thats stiff and the body(Shell flexing all over the place)...I can go on.Boys get a Cad design program its worth it.
VWCOOL ·
sub60 wrote:Boys and Girls, this is terrific, some great photos with the V8. I wont be using a late strut front, but thanks. Pretty sure we can get it to handle with a beam front, their a lot of know how about, which is wonderful to hear. Also it will retain a basic pan to some degree, so not a full tube out. Think is it is nearly nutted out, new debate is
whether to use an tricked auto instead, last longer. Boof just wondering if you have any photos of your guard set up on your car Thanks Mike
Nice pics, but what happens in a garage in Europe or wherever doesn't matter here...
Mid-mount engine = ICV = brand new car = current ADRs.
Sorry, I can't see how you can comply with any safety-related ADRs with with an early Beetle
[ Edited on 17-6-2006 by VWCOOL ]
71superbug ·
would i be mistaken to say that it is an australian guy who sells those plans?.