1600 TP Turbo Engine Toy

I finally dug out the 1600 TP I have siting around which will become my turbo play toy.

Im going to fit this to my Formula Vee for clubdays and the occasional hillclimb.
The engine is to remain stock apart from dry sump and ill just transfer most of the running gear from my F-Vee racing 1200 such as fan shrouds ignition and so-on.

Im building a barrel 'box for it with some close ratio straight cut gears i came across and a 3.8:1 L-bug diff.
The 3rd and 4th gears are quite close and very low. I would imagine they were in something like a sand rail or the like as 3rd is about 1.4 and 4th is 1. 2 something (from memory). Since the engine is stock and will only be revved fairly slowly, prolly around the 4500 to 5000 absolute maximum it will need a tall diff with those short 3rd and 4th gears to make any speed.

I reckon it should be lots of fun and make the right noises at the circuit! I have a Garret T2 turbo (Pulsar turbo ET) for it pulling thru an 45mm HIF SU off a Mini Metro turbo.
I had a tough 200 mm clutch built for it as well.
With a low boost setup I imagine it should see happily around 100 RWHP which should make a day behind the wheel pretty interesting! 480 kilos and a hundred horsepower ATW ought to go quite well and pull like a bull from low down with the little T2 on about 6 Lb boost for tyre frying fun and games.

I was doing a trial fitup of the flywheel and so-on and after bolting on the fly, there was a mile of radial play in the crank suggesting rooted bearings..........(I really hate that (sighs))
Closer inspection and frigging about revealed that the crank and bearings are prolly ok but the crancase is severely slogged out front and back....arrrgh! this things been given a flogging in its day.

I stripped the engine this arvo and the front and rear bearing housing are completely slogged out and the rear housing is badly cracked. Glad I didnt try to fire this thing up!

The bores, pistons, rings and other stuff are still in perfect condition indicating a relatively recent rebuild has been done to the engine. The crank is pristine and standard size journals.

So out to the old engine parts pile and hunt thru the rubbish and dragged out an old twin relief case i knew I had there.
Altho is been chucked around for many years, a few slightly bent studs and all the pistons are broken, the case appears to be ok with the correct cylinder spigot size so I whacked that onto the engine stand and stripped it.

Its a shame really as the crank and rods are in quite good order apart from some surface rust but the middle main bearing has seen water and the journal was too badly rusted to consider so I cant really use that crank and the bearings that belong to it which are in really good order. The case will have to be hot tanked and given a really good blow out after tho as its got that evil smelling old mix of oil and leaves, grass clippings, spiders, wasps and so-on in there!

So my cheap and nasty instant 1600 turbo engine is starting to rack up a bit of a bill now.
Ill have to find some bearings for the thing, give it a quick hone.
The lifter faces are pretty concave and the cam shows quite a bit of wear in the original engine but i should be able to ressurrect the cam out of the junk case as its in better order and the lifters are still pretty flat.

Anyway, kinda ruined my afternoon really but you get that.

More later once i get the engine screwed back together.

l8tr
E

sounds much the same as my build up...thought i'd finally found a good turbo today (airesearch m10) off pulsar but the housing was cracked under the waste gate..oh well there's always tomorrow.

keep us informed on the progress.

That turbo is a Garret T2 if its watercooled or a To2 if its not. Stock clobber on E15et's.
Those little huffers will take an amazing amount of abuse and keep living.
Quite a lot of 'em crack between the exducer and the wastegate outlet but it doenst seem to matter.

Mine has a small crack there as well. Doesnt bother me in the slightest.

L8tr
E

Sounds great tass.

I've heard people talk about "making sure the bottom end is strong if you want to turbo..."

Are either you or Stanley making any changes? What can be done to ensure this "stong bottom end"?

Is stock good enough assuming its not over reved or over boosted and what are the repercussions of not having a stong bottom end?

Cheers
Jeremy

Ummm depends on, as you say, how many revs and how much boost you want to put at it really.

Revs wil kill the stock Kraut engine and at least, a counterweighted crank is the order of the day if the engine is to regularly see over 5 grand for any length of time and you want to keep the crank actually IN the cases!. Altho the stock rods are easily up to the job the addition of some decent ones would not go astray in a "tough" engine.

In a low rev/boost setup, tough or forged pistons are pointless as a boosted engine is actually kinder to pistons than an atmo engine at the same revs, provided the engine is not savagely and repeatedly detonated.
Im leaving the existing pistons in there as they are in pretty good shape and there will be plenty of piston to bore clearance after i run a hone thru them to de-glaze them.

Im not even going to bother setting up any boost ignition retard in this engine.Not enough boost to bother with it at 6psi and in order to get the engines to rev happily between 4500 and 5000rpm, i retard the ignition timing to around 28 to 30 degrees BTDC anyway.
The only thing Ill touch with a grinder is to slightly relieve any sharp edges in the combustion chambers to help prevent detonation.

The stock cases are not really up to the job in a hi-po engine that is expected to really rev and the cranks have a habit of slogging their way out and destroying the bearing bores.
If you really want to make the big numbers then probably a much tougher aluminium crankcase (say Scat) would be a good choice to minimise case flexing and so-on. They usually have beefed up bearing housings and better oiling galleries importants in a loosely built high rev engine.

However, on a low boost and low rev setup I am working on, there is little point in adding expensive high end clobber. The stock engine has low enough compression and the revs i will be asking from it will not be an issue.
Im aiming for relatively low boost pressures as well so the stock cases and the rest of the clobber should comfortably do the job.

Its a matter of choosing a setup and adding the bits you need to make that particular setup reliable.

In my case, its also a budget buildup. Nothing is new and in the unlikely event of the engine going bang down the straight then Ill not loose any sleep over it. In which case I'll go out to the junk pile and retrieve another old case and crank and clap it together again! This time paying closer attention to the revs I let it run to LOL!

Horses for courses of course of course!

L8tr
E

these projects sound very interesting, would love to see some progress pics and how you set up all the plumbing etc.

Thanks Tass, very informative as per usual 🙂

Good luck with your set up.

I'm still to make any moves with that EFI / Turbo stuff I bought off here ages ago... a Type 4 came along and I started work on making that fit instead. Still trying to decide if I turbo that sucker (the T4) or the type 1, the T4 bottom end is probably up to a bit more boost (not that I'm planning a high boost setup) but from what I've read they have trouble keeping the heads on! But a bit more mucking around making the injector mounts, fuel rails, intake manifolds etc etc....

Keep us informed on how you get on, it should be a heap of fun in your Formula Vee!

CU
Jeremy

I'm a relative newbie to turbo's but i've read just about everthing there is. Shoptalk forums forced induction thread is a great start. Thats where I was sold on the idea of the SU. I have since purchased a 1 3/4 SU from ebay. Turbomania is another good read not to mention the countless pages on the net about turbo charging.

Sorry to hijack TSV's thread but it might be interesting to see to different paths to the same goal. TSV has obviously had some experience in this area where as i'm a relative newbie.

As far as hardware, I ve had my 1500 case align bored, decked and 8mm case savers fitted and purchased 8mm chrome moly CB studs. Ive drilled and tapped it for full flow oil filter.
The (standard) crank has been checked and journals polished along with 8 dowelling. (all machine work was carried out by Crankshaft engineering Craig Brown and Dangerous Dave)
The crank and flywheel have been balanced and the flywheel has been lightened, for no other reason than I think it will rev quicker with the smaller turbo. I know driveability will suffer but it's not a dailly driver.
The case has been converted to doghouse cooling and I have a bigger oil pump.
The heads are standard with the addition of a three angle valve job and heavy duty valve springs.
I have a mild (Scat C25 equivelant) cam and lashed out on new lifters.

I've fitted a new fuel line front to rear but at this stage i'm running the standard fuel pump as i'm lead to believe they're good for 100hp+ and being draw thru it hasn't got boost to contend with. If not and it runs lean under boost i'll add an electric fuel pump and boost senstaive reg.

I started out thinking it was a "tight arse Tuesday" turbo and I could do it for a few hundred bucks. Hah Hah.....I guess there's a few things i've skimped on but I think I've spent money where it counts. I plan to run 7.5:1 CR and no more boost ever than single figures.
I'm also looking into water/alcohol injection.

Feel free to tell me if i'm full of shit...this is my first turbo not to mention engine ground up rebuild. Far cry from F-111's although they're aircooled aswell.

I'm in no great herry to finish it but wan't to do it right and make it look good when it's finished. You can check the progress in tech talk if your so inclined.

I'll be keeping an eye on TSV's build up to compare notes and see where i'm going wrong.

Cheers

Stanley

Stanley wrote:I'll be keeping an eye on TSV's build up to compare notes and see where i'm going wrong.
Cheers
Stanley

Hahaha bullshit dude, your not doing anything wrong at all!! Hijacking the thread??? bah, the more the merrier I say!

Id say your looking to the longer term with your engine than mine in which case such prevenmtative measures are well worthwhile.. After all, it has to power a road car that needs to be relied upon to get you home for probably quite some time.
Youve covered most bases with your engine and i believe you have done your homework well.

See, mine is an el-cheapo toy that will live in a 480 kilo (with me in it) open wheeler and the worst thing to happen if it lunches itself is the pain in my sides from laughing and the fact i might have to tow it back to the pits sometime!!!!:P!

You wont ever need a boost sensing FPR tho. Thats only necessary when you are blowing thru your carb.Nice thing with SU's is they they will tolerate quite high fuel pressures.

Su's (along with CD175 Strombergs, Jap Hitachi SU copies and so-on) are an elegantly simple constant depression carbs that work simply fantastically on a turbo setup. In fact they work fantastically on ANY setup really.
I firmly believe that this kind of carb is often dismissed and/or overlooked simply because they dont appear to have enough parts in them. If theyre not complicated, then how can they work well is how some dudes see them? Bah! Bullshit baffles brains!

Id suggest you start with just 2 needles. a BCA and a BAC (Ive forgotten which is the more agressive needle)
You can get these new from Fabre-Midel in Lakemba in Sydney (if they are still there)
Those were the only needles I ever ran on my pull thru turbo setups.
I ended up using the less agressive of the two and modified it to suit myself. It lay somewhere inbetween the two. I measured the needle thickness with verniers avery couple of mm or so shaped it by grabbing the needle in a battery drill and sanding it down with wet'n dry!
You might also like to experimewnt with heavier springs and play with the oil weight in the damper tube to prevent any gasping on sudden throttle.

However, you will soon learn to hate this setup in the cold.
An ordinary carb has an accellerator pump to give the engine a gob-ful of fuel to get it fired up from cold. Always a handy item in a boxer engine, SU's dont and rely on a pretty basic system of pulling the fuel discharge nozzle down, allowing more fuel, to assist cold running.
However, they wont assist an initial cold start. What with all that length of pipe for the fuel to trave thru before it gets where its needed............youll find out!

Dont let that put you off tho. Its an inconvenience more than an outright pain in the arse but the engine will take plenty of attempts to get it to fire up and acxtually keep running when cold.
Youll view your starter motor and your battery as new and different friends!

L8tr
E

Hey Stanley, thanks for your input. I've got a copy of Turbo mania, and to be honest its a collection of disjointed magazine articles advertising CB performance stuff. There is some information in it, but I've flicked though a copy of Forced Induction by A. Graham Bell and that was a much better book. I've also heard good things about Corkey Bells book, Maximum Boost.

I reckon there is little that beats the experience of actually doing it, and talking to those like yourself and Tass that are doing it.

Thanks guys, keep us informed, it great to have these sorts of threads (I've been checking in on your thread regularly to Stanely- great work 👍

CU
Jeremy

Your right about SU's. A mate had tripple SU's on a holden 6. To say they were a bitch to keep in tune together is an under statement, however when we got them sorted it was like a rocket. The internet has made the world a smaller place there's countless websites on the SU carb and how to tune it. Everyone has different views but all seem to agree its a great carb for the draw thru. It even looks ok when it's polished up.

Your setup in a vee would be be a hoot

Cheers.

Stanley wrote:Your right about SU's. A mate had tripple SU's on a holden 6. To say they were a bitch to keep in tune together is an under statement............

I hear this same thing time and again and I can never understand it really. Ive found them to be ridiculously simple to set up and never found them to require much tuning later on.
This has always been the case with my SU's on the turbo setups, both pull and blow thru.

My M8 had an e39 engine in his Charger and it originally had a 625 Carter 4bbl thing on it and altho it went really well, it was an absolute bastard of a thinng to drive around town.
Anybody familiar with theese beasts of things will know what im talking about. Those six pack Chargers make a bitchy XU-1 seem like a V8 limousine in comparison. But, my god do those hemi six paks do the business!

I talked him into fitting 45mm side float SU's which we picked up for 30 bucks each from a pommie car wrecker in Sydney.
We attached them to a short, valanced triple SU manifold from Lynx.
I set up the linkages to open the butterflys together off the car and only connected the cold run linkage to the centre carb. A bonus of using a valanced manifold and I belive,an un-valanced manifold is the root cause of a lot of adverse SU publicity.
I set the mixtrure trimmmers to midway in its travel on all three carbs and cranked it into life.

It took about 10 minutes with the aid of a pencil (as a height guage) to adjust the mixture trimmers and balance the butterflys and the carbs were pretty much NEVER touched after that.
Remeber this engine was running over 10:1 compression, massively ported and valved heads with a wilder cam than the E39 Chargers had stock and this thing crackled away at 1200rpm.
That car was used as a daily driver and shopping trolley and ther only attention we ever spent on the carbs was to check carb balance after a couple of days after initial fitting. It was a waste of time anyway.

neway, just my experiences with them thats all.
i love any kind of CD carb.

L8tr
E

Your right...it took a bit of time to realise that all 3 carbs were different in slight ways. We had the same lynx manifold I think.

ahhh kay
I stripped the ones we had, cleaned 'em, replaced the fuel hose from the float chamber to the discharge nozzle and put some new needles in and away they went!
jeez that was an animal of an engine!!!!!!!!!!
L8tr M8
E

Got the crank and evertyhing in y'day....off to put the case halves together today.

I reckon ur going to beat me to it. Ive got to take the case halves I have down to work yet and give them a good pressure blasting.
I gotta then get some standard bearings before i bolt the halves back together.
Cant hurry these things LOL.

L8tr
E

can u take pics of the setup amd the making while u go tas?? still got that SU and turbo at home to make the turbo setup pics tell a thousand words if you know what im saying!!
cheers
rhys

Sure M8
I still havent cleaned the case guts just yet so theres not a lot to see but ill certainly keep a brief on what i get up to.

remember, with this setup, im taking a slightly different road in the turbo manifold department as the turbo itself is remotely mounted to the engine/gearbox crossmember and the zorts will be just piped up to the turbo inlet!
This was i can use a standard set of F-Vee extractors I have laying around, merge them and run the reulting collector to the turbo.

The carb is an HIF SU which is attached dirtectly to the front of the turbo via a simple adapter.

Itll all be pretty agricultural but simplicity and cost restraint is the order of the day here!

More shortly.

L8tr
E

sweet as mate look forward to seeing it all be great to see it in the making!
cheers
rhys

Things are sent to try us.

I simply cannot remove one of the relief valve plugs...........gawwwd i hate that.
I dont have an impact driver either do I................
L8tr
E

TSV,

Try your cordless drill in reverse with the clutch set loose and progressively tighten it up. The thousand little taps that get firmer often does the trick, my 14.4v drill is awesome at doing this. Needs to have a decent clutch though, not a 25 buck xu1 type! I use a higher end B & D with the removable chuck so I can set it all up and then click the drill on.

Air powered rattle gun is good for this too ( at the risk of being called a butcher when I am a psych nurse 🤪🤪🤪)

Rattle on dude! I enjoy your writings!

kkk

KKK
Heheheh one step ahed dude. i tried that! My drill was not up to the job tho.
In the end i got it out using a slightly more murderous method....ye olde hammer and pin punch! Couple of whacks and it loosened.

Im not too keen on using that particular case now as the oil galleries have been watered and there is a lot of corrosion built up in there and I might have a hell time removing all that white grainy crap that has blocked a few oil galleries without removing most of the external oil gallery bungs and doing a proper job.

So, plan B, I dug out another engine, a single relief case but this thing has been sitting on its backside for hell only knows and was badly corroded.
A couple of the case studs were prety badly corroded in and i had to chisel that one apart. It too has seen plenty of work and the bearing tunnels are a bit too sad to consider. Anyway, i buggered it hammering it apart!
The crank is rooted as well. Its run a bearing and this has taken out that journal.

So, dig out another engine, this ones in perfect condition and in fact the bores have been closed and bored some time in the recent history of the engine. Everything was still oily and no water. Sadly tho, its also run a big end and the crank is buggered along with that rod. Oh well.
At least i have a case that is nice and clean inside and not slogged out.
The next thing might be fun as the case halves have been faced and the main bearing tunnels have been oversized .040 (1mm)
This means I gotta find 1mm oversize (outside) and STD pin size bearings. Might be a challenge that. Gotta make a few calls.
Anybody come across that much?
I can always go back to the other case but................

The only crank I want to use is in perfect condition bearing wise, looks like new really and mics up well and still on standard size but has some damage to the flywheel dowel pin holes. It appears that the flywheel has loosened some time in its life and damaged the holes a bit.
Ican either turn the flywheel and re-drill the dowel holes or mebbe just leave the existing dowles there and drill another set between them.
There isnt that much damage to the holes as the pins still sit in there quite tight but they have been pulled right out and elongated the outer extreme of the dowel hole. Prolly only damaged the last 1mm or so.
I imagine the flywheel that belonged to the engine must have been well and truly rooted.
This engine will have quite a bit of grunt and will cop it transmission wise so its prolly the only decent bit of performance oriented work Ill do to the thing!!!

Whats the general consensus here? Leave the existing dowels in and drill inbetween and add 4 more or just spin the fly and redrill the 4 dowels??
Ordinarily I would not waste my time but this crank is the only good one i have and i want to keep a lid on costs of this thing. Its only a crapper hence Im not bothering with grinding a crank.

Nothing is a easy as it seems!

L8tr
E

Yeah dude , fix that crank ass by redrilling and face it flat too.

oversize dowels x 8, done this before and it worked a treat m8

kkk

Excellent gentlemen I shall get that done.

Id say there was a flywheel washer fitted when this fly loosened which has protected the crank end. There is no witness marks suggesting any galling and so-on on the crank stub. It looks like new apart from the sslightly slogged dowel holes.
Surprising really as this thing ran with a loose fly long enough to actuall pull the dowels right out of the crank. The elongation to the holes only extends barely a millimeter down suggesting to me that the dowels worked their way almost out of the crank before the damage got done.

Shit happens yer?

More later.
E

Hey TSV...your nissan turbo...will you be fitting a carbon seal or will you be just running a large oil outlet like i've heard you can do.

Cheers S

Dunno M8
If it becomes a drama and sucks oil I might just run it blow thru insted. Ive got all the stuff handy.
Ill have to get a definitive answer as to whether the To2 will suck oil or not.
L8tr
*

Just a quick update.
I tool the crank and fly up to a M8's workshop and drilled them for 8 dowels.

While we were there we chucked the fly into the lathe and turned it down....anbd down....and down LMAO. Plenty light now i gotta say!

Re-assembled the crank with new bearings but faild to notice that the cam drive gear was damaged.
Pull the sucker apart again, strip another crank, rob the gear, clean it up, heat it up and drop it all back on, yay!

While I was rummaging thru a box of old F-Vee bits I scored a long time ago, lo and behold, a brand new Cofap cam still in its box and a set of machined lifters!
Cewl, theyre in as well.

L8tr
E

Cool, dontcha love old boxes of stuff!

tassupervee wrote:Just a quick update.
I tool the crank and fly up to a M8's workshop and drilled them for 8 dowels.

While we were there we chucked the fly into the lathe and turned it down....anbd down....and down LMAO. Plenty light now i gotta say!

Re-assembled the crank with new bearings but faild to notice that the cam drive gear was damaged.
Pull the sucker apart again, strip another crank, rob the gear, clean it up, heat it up and drop it all back on, yay!

While I was rummaging thru a box of old F-Vee bits I scored a long time ago, lo and behold, a brand new Cofap cam still in its box and a set of machined lifters!
Cewl, theyre in as well.

L8tr
E

Yer, this got me intrigued and rummaging further i found a freshly ground and balanced crank fitted with new bearings, cam and dizzy gears!
Not only that, i found 2 sets of balanced (end to end) 1200 rods, a set of new rings and big end bearings!!
Somebody had spent a lot of time preparing these rods and this crank!!

On further searching, i found a set of prepared 1200 heads with new guides already done witrh 3 angle valve jobs (no valves tho)! I got dozens of them I know of tho!

My lucky day!!!!! heheheheheheheheheh hows that?!!!!

Did a bit more today.

Put the crankcase together this arvo.
Ive decided to whack in a set of new gapless rings into it tho. i wasnt going to bother as the existing clobber was barely used but bugger it, might as well.
The barrels and pistons are in excellent nick so ill just run a hone down them and slap it together.
Slowly but surely!
L8tr
E

keep it going man i will be starting mine soon going to use a T28 turbo cause the turbo headers have the mount for a T28 .
anyway keep us updated and more pics please!!
cheers
rhys

Gives you quite a few options m8 as you can use a T2, To2, T25, T25G and T28 with that flange.
L8tr
E

tassupervee wrote:Gives you quite a few options m8 as you can use a T2, To2, T25, T25G and T28 with that flange.
L8tr
E

Is there a site somwhere that you can compare all the different turbo's, so a newbie can work out what's what?

Hey TSV,

What about the nitrous?

That in your 350kg car would be a missile!

lol

kkk

koolkarmakombi wrote:Hey TSV, What about the nitrous? That in your 350kg car would be a missile!lol
kkk

bwaaahahahahahah you are a fool triple K!
However, i like your line of thought!!!!!!

L8tr M8
E

so they all use the same flange shape?? T2 turbo's are hard to come by they are all T02's!!
cheers
rhys

kombi_kid wrote:so they all use the same flange shape??

yep!

kombi_kid wrote:T2 turbo's are hard to come by they are all T02's!!cheers rhys

Ahhh nope, plenty around. Most i ever paid was 120 bux.
Ive got 3 T2's and 2 To2's.
The non water cooled turbos i got for about 80 bucks each.

Plenty around.
l8tr
E

kombi_kid wrote:T2 turbo's are hard to come by they are all T02's!!
cheers
rhys

day and a half to go! not mine btw

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/T2-Turbo_W0QQitemZ150031654842QQihZ005QQcategoryZ130660QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

must just be me and the places im looking ahahahahahaha u wanna sell a T2 E??
ahahahaha
cheers
rhys

Actually nah M8. I have the 2 non watercooled turbos already earmarked, one of the watwercooled turbos is now on the car, one is a reasonable spare and the other one has cracked housings and is just for parts........sorry.....

However, if you want a T2, Im an admin on the N12turbo.com forum and ill track some down for you if you like.
T2's are water cooled tho.

Last I looked there was one guy selling 4 T2's, 2 were excellent and the other 2 were good.
Wanted 75 bucks each for the OK ones and 125 each for the good ones.

I can check if you like.

l8tr
E

i know i have asked this somewhere but cant find it the T2 watercooled turbo will it be harmed by not having water running through it?? only gonna run 6-8 PSI so me thinks not otherwise im aftera T02!!
anyway man thanks again i would love for you to help me find a decent turbo!
cheers
rhys

Well, there are quite a few guys who seem to run them without water. I personally dont like the idea really.
Its an awful lot of extra metal there containing the heat which can lead to burning of the oil in the housings and premature failure.

Anyway, ill put some feelers out M8 and get back to you.

L8tr
E
PS, not forgotten about the flanges M8.

no worries man your a champ!!
cheers
rhys

Rhys
U2U sent x 2
L8tr
E

Quick update, I have assembled the bottom end now and am just waiting for a set of standard rings to arrive to complete it.
The original idea of pulling thru a carb has been dropped now as the engine is getting programmeable EFI.
I have an EMS Ti-3 system spare now and thats going onto the engine.
Im not running 4 injectors sequentially tho as there is not the room undeneath my chassis and bodywork to place them above the ports so I am going to use a pair of 550cc RX7 turbo injectors which will be placed just in front of the almunium end castings in front of where they merge.
Ill just bank fire the injectors together as in a throttle body setup. No need for anything fancy here.
The Throttle body itself is a 44mm TB offen one of my Turbo Pulsar engines.

Ill have to run a charging system on this thing tho to run the EFI and fuel pump. Ive not decided whether to use a VW 12V gennie, an alternator setup or just run anything alternator simply attached alongside the original gennie. Depends on what I can pick up really.
More later.
E

Whacked a parallel hone down the bores today, fitted up the new rings and assembles the cylinders onto the case.
I have bolted one head down and just have to give the other a quick cleanup and chuck it on.
One little trap that got me was that fitting a TP top end to a 40 horse single relef case resulted in the two middle/outer head studs being too long....hmmm didnt see that one coming!
Anyway, wound out the old ones from the buggered 1600 case and replaced them. All is well!

Altho not ideal, i might just run a 12 V gennie on this thing. I cant be bothered with adding alternators to the side and the VW alternators seem a bit too dear for this project. I dunno how "dirty" the output is of a gennie what with the bobbin style reg..? We shall see i spose.
Yer I know, Im a tightarse but I cannot be bothered spending too much on this thing.! Gotta try and do it with the stuff I have laying about.............

Ran into an interesting hassle tho with the flywheel dowels. I went up to a M8's and we drilled/ reamed the fly/crank for 8 dowels. I happened to have a box of 8mm dowel stock and i cut up a new set of dowels. Thing is I messed the measurement of the depth of the holes in the crank/flywheel and cut them all about 1/2mm too long and the frikken flywheel nut bottomed onto them............I hate that.

More later.
E

pics?

An electronic reg and a good battery to act as a 'sink' should see you right TSV

tassupervee wrote:Whacked a parallel hone down the bores today, fitted up the new rings and assembles the cylinders onto the case.
I have bolted one head down and just have to give the other a quick cleanup and chuck it on.
One little trap that got me was that fitting a TP top end to a 40 horse single relef case resulted in the two middle/outer head studs being too long....hmmm didnt see that one coming!
Anyway, wound out the old ones from the buggered 1600 case and replaced them. All is well!

Altho not ideal, i might just run a 12 V gennie on this thing. I cant be bothered with adding alternators to the side and the VW alternators seem a bit too dear for this project. I dunno how "dirty" the output is of a gennie what with the bobbin style reg..? We shall see i spose.
Yer I know, Im a tightarse but I cannot be bothered spending too much on this thing.! Gotta try and do it with the stuff I have laying about.............

Ran into an interesting hassle tho with the flywheel dowels. I went up to a M8's and we drilled/ reamed the fly/crank for 8 dowels. I happened to have a box of 8mm dowel stock and i cut up a new set of dowels. Thing is I messed the measurement of the depth of the holes in the crank/flywheel and cut them all about 1/2mm too long and the frikken flywheel nut bottomed onto them............I hate that.

More later.
E

koolkarmakombi wrote:An electronic reg and a good battery to act as a 'sink' should see you right TSV

Ahh kay. I didnt know there was an eletronic reg. for gennies.... Ill look into that. Im very limited with what battery I can run in the car. I have this sealed thing out of a harley bike that has a million CCA and cost me a shiteload! Itll have to do.
I even considered using one of those heavy duty rock box power supply filters on the frontend of the ECU.... dunno.

I do have this tiny nifty per-mag. alternator out of a small Kubota tractor which uses a simple voltage reg out of most motorcycles (shunts excess juice to ground) but it requires messy bracketry which I simply cannot be bothered with......

Pete.........I havent taken any pix of this so far as i kinda figgered that a basic engine buildup wasnt that interesting to most dudes really. Especially given this one is a real dodgey build out of old and mixed parts. I didnt want to advertise the dodgey part of the build LOL!

However, once the engine is attached to its gearbox and the turbocharger goes on along with the EFI, Ill definitely whack up some pix of that part.

Im sure that bit will be more interesting than the basic power plant build

L8tr
E

Completed the basic engine build yesterday arvo. No real surprises in there. Just a single relief case full of the best second-hand bits I have.

Ive also modified the Nissan dizzy with optical CAS and added the drive ring off the bottom of the VW dizzy.
It fits in nicely and Im using the stock vw dizzy retaining clamp. Once I ground off the hardened drive slot off the bottom of the Nissan dizzy shaft, it was relatively easy to drill the shaft for the VW retaing pin.
I have to further modify the Nissan dizzy yet tho to make it all work.
The VW dizzy rotates the other way to the Nissan dizzy so the timing wheel is out of phase with the rotor button/dizzy cap relationship.
Nissan uses a 60 Deg, advance offset off the trigger wheel which means that running it backwards will have the ignition events out of synch with the rotor button and dizzy cap.
The EMS ecu Im using employs a totally different CAS offset than Nissan or Microtech so I have to measure that difference and factor in the difference in degrees the timing wheel is offset now to arrive at a new offset figure.
Otherwise the rotor button may be pointing into fresh air when there is an ignition event! Its no biggie as its just a matter of rotating the timing wheel until the thing fires with the rotor pointing to a plug lead contact!

I did a trial fitup with the exhaust system (an old Formula Vee tuned and merged extractor system i no longer use). I have to bend the head pipes a little to allow for the different widths of the 1200 and 1600 engines but its only a couple of millimeters each side really. The stock slip fit merged collector will have a 45mm pipe bent up and around to the inlet of the zorst housing.
Remember, my turbo is actually bracketed directly to the engine/chassis crossmember via its outlet flange and all I need to do is to route a pipe up from the collector to the turbo zorst inlet flange. Its all made out of stock exhaust tube as it carries no weight. All to easy!

I sat the inlet stubs in place with the stock inlet log and riser but Ive decided not to modify the stock log.
The aluminium end castings have an inside Dia. of about 35mm so rather than chop up the standard log, ill use some 1&5/8" tube cut to the correct length and have the ends reduced to the 35mm to plug into the stock inlet stubs as per stock.
The injector bosses will be added to the very ends this crossover log, just before it plugs into the manifold stubs rather than into the inlet stubs themselves.
There is not quite enough plain ally tube in the stubs before they split into the two inlet tubes to put the injectors there.
As Ive mentioned before, Ive decided to batch fire a pair of RX7 550cc injectors rather than mess around with 4 x 230cc injectors at the port inlets.
There is too much messing around and fabrication necessary to fit the 4 injectors to the stubs and the gains from running 4 sequentially fired injectors V's 2 x batch fired jobbies are just not there for this application.
Its a very simple matter of cutting out of steel tube and flat plate stock the injector mounts, machining the "o"-ring seat and finally cutting them off to the appropriate angle and brazing them to the steel tube.
These are hosetail injectors and are retained by 2 x M4 screws rather than employing an individual fuel rail to retain them. Makes it all rather easy and neat!
The riser tube will be notched into the log, pretty much same as stock and a Nissan 44mm throttle body will be fitted in the stock position where the carb used to be sos i can employ the existing throttle linkage setup for the F-Vee carb.

The Nissan TB and the Garrett To2 both hav a 45mm hosetail connections so connection to the turbo is easy via a short pipe and rubber tube connecting sleeves each end.
I could re-route a few things and fit a nice intercooler into the sidepod with this arrangement but at low boost (7psi) is largely unnecessary for the added wank, complexity and buggerising around including cutting up the fibreglass pods. Im not chasing any outright horespwer with this setup, mainly just mid-range grunt to have fun frying tyres and so-on at clubdays so I dont care if I loose a couple of horsepower by leaving out a 'cooler.
I'd water/methanol inject it well before ever bothering with a 'cooler.

In the short term, im bolting it all up to my F-Vee "long-box". The 4.1 diff will be way too slow for the potential of this thing but it will serve the purpose until I find and fit 3.8 L-bug diff for it.
Im only expecting to rev this thing up to an absolute (rev-limited by the ecu) max of 5000rpm (soft limiter at 4800) to ensure it lives at least for a while and does not try to shake the crank out of the cases since im not using a counterweighted crank or anything fancy in the engine.

Once I get some more bits made up Ill take some pic showing what im up to.

More later men.
L8er
E

man u have been a busy man dude dont forget the pics!!! ahahahahahahaha
cheers
rhys
p.s. is it necessary to have a boost retarding dizzy for a turbo setup where there isnt going to be anymore then 6-7 psi boost?

thats probably a bit overkill but what ever tickles ur fancy

i just used a 009 and locked the timing to max at 24*
and that was running 10#

-Joel

Yer you can get away with fixed timing but its always a compromise.
With a programmeable ECU, I can dial in as much off boost advance as i want to keep the engine crisp and dial timing out under boost to rule out detonation.

Rhys, whereve U been. i found about 4 turbos for you ranging from 80 bucks to 140 but I never got a reply from you and they are gone now.

lemme know M8
L8tr
E

[ Edited on 24/10/06 by tassupervee ]

The motor is entirely assembled now alonbg with the extractors.
I have changed the location of the turbo. It now sits on a plate bracketed to the top of the diff housing alongside the starter motor.
The Nissan dizzy with the optical CAS is in place apart from a 3mm spacer I need under the dizzy body to space it up slightly

The throttle body is attached directly to the outlet of the turbo and I might make a 2" pipe to run under the Right side rocker cover and then up to the crossover log.

There is a bit of an issue with fitting the injectors to the crossover log manifold as the left side injector is fairly close to the 12 gennie body. It may not leave enough room to attach the fuel hose to tho. I reckon I can get around that tho.
Im hoping to get around this sos I dont have the single injectors per side mounted to the aluminium inlet stubs.
They are a bit close to the divider between the ports in the stubs which may compromise mixture distribution and I dont want to modify the stubs if at all possible. Along with that, Ill have to rely on other people to weld stuff together.

Its a no-brainer to fabricate the injector mounts from steel stock and a bit of flat plae and brazed together and machined to suit the injectors I am using. I can frig to my hearts content with the aiming/orientation of the mounts whereas if I have to get the welded, i have to trust somebody else to get it right.

I also have a pair of iron T3 TO to single throat carby risers which have those air injection stubs in the ideal place to site the injectors but I dont know if they will fit withing the confines of the chassis and/or bodywork untill I actually have the 1600 in the car. The stubs themselves fit but actually getting the pipes in from the turbo may be rather tricky. there just isnt the room there to pass the 1 & 1/2" pipes around the rear suspension pushrods easily.
I may be able to go forward and then curl around and merge and then go back underneath one of the rocker covers but again, I wont know until I have the engine actually in the chassis. (headfuck headfuck headfuck)
These stubs will also require the use of 4 injectors which just double the workload I need to do.
This application is basically a force fed "race' engine and I can live with some low down fuelling issues thanks to batch fires single injectors up to 120mm away from the ports per side.
I have toyed with passing the turbo pipe right thru the fan housing as well which may be the easiest way to go. However, I need another 40 horse fan housing to butcher for that. Might make it the simplest and easiest way to go however. We shall see.

All this in chassis measuring up prolly wont happen until after the next race in early December.

However I can finish off fashioning the turbo mounts, the connection between the turbo and the merged collector of the extractors and the dump pipe fabrication.

The turbo oil dump runs down and across to one of the rocker covers taking car of returning the turbo oil and the pressure supply is simply teeing off where the oil pressure switch usually lives and running a small hydraulic line to the top of the turbo.
My pressure switch in the race car is actually attached to the back of the guage in the dash so its a simple matter.

More later. Ill take some pix soon. Not much actually completed to show right now.
E

Looking forward to some pics.....seems i'm dragging the chain.

What have you done to the SU for the turbo?

Errm, well, the SU has been put back in the box on the shelf!!!!
Im fitting the progrmmeable EMS EFI system! LOL

As a matter of interest, the SU is a very rare 45mm HIF (center float) SU with boost enrichment. Its a factory modified carb fitted to old Mini Metro Turbo's which utillise a blow-thru setup. I bought the last new on in captivity from Fabre/Midel about 12 years ago.
The boost enrichment is rather ingenius and actually employs off-boost "enleaning" if I can use such a term.
So its a matter of altering the needle settings off boost to achieve correct AFR's and when the turbo comes onto boost, the circuit "fattens" up the mixtures a bit, independant of the actual needle profile, the spring tension and the damper oil viscosity!
Its a very elegant approach and works well.
the only thing giving the carb away is a rubber hose going from one end of the carb to the other.
You dont need to alter SU's in any way to run turbo setups tho, either pull or push thru.
However, to get an SU to work in push thru requires a well designed plenum of the right volume infront of the carb. Its critical to the operation of the SU. I dont know exactly why but the carb will never work right if the plenum is not big enough. believe me I spent years nutting this out on my old 1600 Ford.

Hurry up with ur setup M8
L8tr
E

[ Edited on 28/10/06 by tassupervee ]

That will teach me for speed reading thru ya post. Missed the word injectors.
I'm hoping to get the engine in next weekend. Just need to set the endfloat and then i'm good to go. Kombi conversion is getting in the road as well

Cheers

Yer my "engine woes" with the race car made quite a dent in my 1600 progress.
Im plugging away at it tho now.
L8tr
E

man i have been here there and everywhere mainly a move back from brisbane into home and finding a new job back here has been my major setback but all is know settled and finally got the pipes bolted on to see how they all look and sit on the engine i will email you with a few queries i have and a few pics and let me know when ya here of a turbo ahahahahaha thanks for looking out for me buddy!!
cheers
rhys

Rhys
heheheheh that explains where youd dissappeared to M8.

Ill keep an eye out for some T02's again.

Oh, BTY, I have a spare SU flange cut out here as well you can grab.
I wont be using it now.

L8tr
E

ok sweet as let me know what ya need and will get the money off to ya!
cheers
rhys

Ive been pretty slack over new year. I started a new job as well with a lot more hours so work on the toy has stalled a bit.
Sadly, I cant take any pix this minute as my camera is in Sydney on holidays!

I have fitted the complete 1600 engine into the chassis now and done the clearancing for the 12v flywheel inside the bellhousing.

There was no real way that the T3 manifold stubs could be made to fit my chassis tho. Not easily enough anyway.
It would have required some pretty fancy cutting and shutting of the tubes to create the compound bends I need to kinda mimic the stock aluminium 1600 end castings sos to keep the throttle body in the stock carb position.

In the end, I cut the inlet runner tubes right down to short stubs and extended them straight up by 35mm using some 1 & 3/8" tube which sleeves onto the stock pipe nice and tight.

I used a length of 2" pipe and notched the 2 runners into this to create a small "plenum".
The plenum tucks neatly up under the chassis rails and into this I notched some 1 & 3"8 pipe which the stock inlet log connects to with a length of rubber tube and hose clamps.

Its reasonably cheap and nasty but this wont matter as this setup is not about max flow or horsepower. Im only pushing a 380 kilo car dun forget! Anything will go fast!
The engine will be hard cut at 5000rpm so just about anything withi reason will do.
particularly on a force fed engine.

I had even toyed with using a pair od single port heads and manifold that I have using a single injector each side........nah bugger it!

More later
E

tassupervee wrote:I had even toyed with using a pair od single port heads and manifold that I have using a single injector each side.

Now that would be cool!
One fat nozzle per side!

Yeah M8, it has crossed my mind many times............... however................!

The other consideration is that the T3 injectors are a generic everyday Bosch hosetail injector and its a simple matter of removing the T3 injectors and replacing them with the Pulsar turbo 230cc injectors.

Since the EMS ecu is currently running my Pulsar turbo, its pretty much a matter of hitting the key and go have fun with perhaps some fine tuning for raggedy areas as opposed to a complete re-map of the fuel system to get it going with 2 larger squirters!!!

Take the easy road grasshopper, if you can LOL!

L8tr
E

Would look tough tho!!