WA VW Club needs a definition of a rat

The WA VW Club is considering having a rat classification in the judging at this years Day of the Volkswagen. The problem is that we are unsure as to what constitutes a rat. We would welcome any suggestions from you as to what cars should be in the rat classification and what should not be there.

As I understand it there are several different ideas as to what constitutes a rat.

1 A rat is a mechanically excellent vehicle with good body work that is all sorts of mismatching colours, which has surface rust only and which has been made up from parts that were ratted from around the workshop.

2 A rat is a mechanically indifferent, rusty looking old car with surface rust only, with its original panels present and that needs a paint job. I would call that ratty, just like my daggy old Herbie.

3 A rat is a well restored car with a matt black paint job.

4 A rat has the look of a hot rod with a lowered front, cycle guards, matt black paint and red wire wheels from an old Ford.

4 A rat is a rat if the owner says so.

PLease help us out here as we want to include the rat classification for judging, but we don't want controversy on the day from people who disagree with our definitions.

Thanks in anticipation.

Rat is in the eye of the beholder. The rules are...there are no rules. Rat judging has to be down to the public doesn't it? It's an artform and no one or two or three people can decide what's best. It's up to the individual as to what they like. Condition, as in concourse judging, is relatively simple. Judging a rat is a personal thing.
Has to be peoples choice I reckon.

[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by 65busser ]

65busser wrote:Rat is in the eye of the beholder. The rules are...there are no rules. Rat judging has to be down to the public doesn't it? It's an artform and no one or two or three people can decide what's best. It's up to the individual as to what they like. Condition, as in concourse judging, is relatively simple. Judging a rat is a personal thing.
Has to be peoples choice I reckon.

[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by 65busser ]

No, it's not an artform - these cars are the result of a situation. Rats live in sheds of farms; that's where the term 'rat' comes from (as far as I know) because these cars are usually found in sheds/garages...

But in recent times, it's been 'watered down' and faked to a certain degree. Do we have classes of 'real' rats and 'repro' rats with painted-on rust and 'accidentally-on-purpose' dents?


People's choice, I reckon. Only way to do it without controversy

So since I have real rust and dents on Veronika, that makes my car a rat?
Peoples choice is the only way to go for that one, too many different opinions.
-Staggers.

Flat black does not make a car a rat. The turm "rat" is used now for anything old that is not in good condition. A piece of shit car is not a rat, its a piece of shit. A little bit of primer on a guard does not mean the car is rat.

This is a rat.....




This is not.......

decked dubby wrote:Flat black does not make a car a rat. The turm "rat" is used now for anything old that is not in good condition. A piece of shit car is not a rat, its a piece of shit.

A-fuckin'-men!

decked dubby wrote:Flat black does not make a car a rat. The turm "rat" is used now for anything old that is not in good condition. A piece of shit car is not a rat, its a piece of shit. A little bit of primer on a guard does not mean the car is rat.

That's good, because Veronika IS an old car that's not in good condition, but still she IS matt black... Mind you there's no visible dents anymore (Thank you septone) but she's definately littered with them, as is for the rust.
But either way as an owner of a rat, and a son of a bloke who has rats (As well as show cars)... I can say that my car is a rat...
A peice of shit is a peice of shit, but there seems to be quite a few people here taking shitboxes with no real metal left, out of paddocks only to have people say it's a rat.
So where do you draw the line?
If you think you have a rat, you have a rat.
If someone else thinks you have a shitbox so be it, that's their opinion.
No one person can decide what a rat is.
-Staggers.

Boy Richard, have you opened a can of worms! As to decked dubby and Matt, im sure there is a more tactful way to have this discussion.

In Perth is personally dont feel we have all that many "rats" compared to over east where there is a good contingent of Hood Ride Rats. The Rat debate is a huge one, as everyone has their opinion of what a Rat consists of. To me its a Rusty Volkswagen with accessories?

Ash x

decked dubby wrote: This is a rat.....




This is not.......

what he said i also think a true rat is a vehicle that is a little hard to come by like this and that bug that tim used to own it's a 58?
and this SC that stupid forgot to post ha ha ha

Put that yellow bus on a 6 inch beam, an inch of the ground rocking some trashed og fuchs, and I'd say you got yourself a rat. If you dont think its an art form then you got your head up your arse. og, faked, matt black whatever, its not about the bloody paint finish, its about the attitude of the dude behind the wheel. Brads spot on, peoples choice is the only way to judge it or else there becomes too much politics, and that goes against the whole menality of the scene. If it looks ratty and cool its a rat. Personaly I f@#king hate the term rat, but whatever. My 2c.

Hertz wrote:Put that yellow bus on a 6 inch beam, an inch of the ground rocking some trashed og fuchs, and I'd say you got yourself a rat. If you dont think its an art form then you got your head up your arse. og, faked, matt black whatever, its not about the bloody paint finish, its about the attitude of the dude behind the wheel. Brads spot on, peoples choice is the only way to judge it or else there becomes too much politics, and that goes against the whole menality of the scene. If it looks ratty and cool its a rat. Personaly I f@#king hate the term rat, but whatever. My 2c.

yeah, well I must have my head up my arse then. Go and drive your pseudo, I rusted-it-myself rat. Maybe you could cruise with the 30-grand, 30-mile, I'm a meany-biker-wanker Harley owners, too


[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]

For me, i think the perfect combination is a bit of "situation" coupled with "artform".

Nothing better than a "aged" VW slammed on a narrowed beam with the right wheels and accessories. mmmmm, tasty.

True, some times artform can compensate situation, its about making a cool ride out someone elses junk. Anyone can hang someone else's art on their walls, but that dont make em an artist.

[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by Hertz ]

RAT stands for Rusting Apart Transport? If it is rusty and it still drives it is a RAT i reckon....but if it has a ding in the guard it isnt a rat....Rat i reckon must be atleast 40 years old...otherwise not a rat...cos any car can rust away...car has to survive years and years of rusting. Then it deserves to be a rat...even better if it has original paintwork

look at 30,s to 50,s rods.cars built on a budget from any parts they could find

malcolm wrote:look at 30,s to 50,s rods.cars built on a budget from any parts they could find

If you mean 'rods' built in the 50s from 30s cars, that's like modifying a VN Commodore today! 😉

rat = the artform of turning something that would usualy be considered unattractive or indifferent into something that will make people look twice.

rat is all about attitude. the stance of the car, the panels and paint (or lack of) and the idealism behind the car is what makes it what it is.
where a cal looker is judged on its paint, chrome, interior, etc... the rat should be judged on how the car makes a person feel. and thus i dont think the rat category can be brought down to a panel of judges. rather, an open rat category that is judged by the public should be the way to go.

It is an artform. Its a form of sub-culture. Takes the symantics of the Volkswagen and extends them though modification to create a visual metaphor, which is an extension of the common values of that sub culture expressed in in personalised form.

So to be a rat, it has to be more than ratty. It has to in some way show an extension of the owners personal taste and style through positive effort, rather than neglect alone. The visual clues are posted here, worn paint juxtaposed with new chrome rims for example. Pin stripes - being an artform, tiki's, 50s cultural influences etc.,

To be a rat, it is more than just a neglected car. Elements of the overall appearance are contrived. The base canvas is extended into small glimpses of show car, but in such a way that it support the sub cultural values of the owner.

If you're lost in the 50s, then that will be apparent, if you're into sleds, if you're into a particular art-movement, interested in a period of history etc., then the vehicle concerned is a spring board to the expression of those interests.

If you look at the cutlure on Hoodride, look past the cars, check out some of the MySpace sites from the owners, see their wider influences etc., then it is easy to argue that the Rat is an art form, expressing popular culture with the VW being the 'vehicle' of expression so to speak.

Its definately art. Look at the way the owners often 'pose' their vehicles in a particualar landscape - urban or not, look at the way they focus on the semantics of the car and then exaggerate them, the pin stripes, the stencils and the way that they use typography to further explain it.

[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by crewcabconnection ]

What he said.

vwcool tell that to rodders,rats started in the USA grass roots and its developed from there .
crewcabconnection very good explaination

thank you. From the DSK camp, the advent of the Rat is probably the single most important shift in thinking thats happened in recent years. No one really aspires to anything more than a fun ride that compliments their lifestyle. Paint it or not paint it. Its a visual thing, a plaything. If it gets you on the road, and lets you have fun thats the point.

Judging a rat seems a rather impossible task, as they are not really built for that purpose. I personally see the Rat sub-culture as an anti-culture, which has sprung out of the show car culture itself. To judge it you are going to have to creative with the criteria ... and you're really judging creativity and individuality, and by its nature is opposed to the established nature of show and shine.

Not that Im bagging people for building superb machines ... but its like deciding which is better modenism or post-modernism.

There is a difference between a try-hard rat, and something that has come out of the owners imagination and enthusiasm, if you are trying to build a rat, then don't, you've missed the point. Owning a rat is all about the people, the shared good times and driving fun ... which is where the irony comes in, as looking at a rat, the general public would wonder a) why don't they fix it and b) how the hell does it get rego followed by c) I wish I was daring enough or passionate enough about something to get pleasure out of something like that.

Like people have said, may rats have plenty of money poured into them, its just that the need to paint and perfect the body is not as important as having something that is an extension of thier particular values and interests.

I cant see anyway in which you could apply established judging criteria to a rat. The owner(s) are probably not interested in a trophy anyway, and trying to meld show car values to anti-show car values in not really going to work for either sub culture. Best leave it alone I reckon.

Having crapped on about all that, I do think that later stuff does not lend itself to the Rat look, however there are plenty of looks availble for those people to buy into. I could for example, not really see a super-bug as something rat-fiends would scout for. Then again, the German look in super-bugs is supurb. But its a different mentality.

The good news is that people that want to get into this type of self-expression can do it very cheaply, and connect with people that are like-minded. So the positive end is that you can get something early, or rescue something from the compactor and give it a new lease of life for low $$$ and enjoy it. Be that an oval, splitter, bay or whatever.

If you are yet to get the difference between a piece of shit and a rat clear in your own mind, then its probably that you don't subscribe to the overall sub-culture sufficiently. Which is not a bad thing, as you'll probably be into something else which is good for that sub-set of dubbiness.

I think that the general rise of the rat, and the growing acceptance of them in established vw culture is a massive shot in the arm, and certainly had an influence on the growing numbers of 'new dubbers' that are getting into the 'scene', if indeed there is a 'scene'.

I can't get enough of Hoodride stuff, love the culture, the art and the mental things that they are willing to do in the name of a good time. Its probably the most significant sub-culture in the VW culture at the moment, and is a child of technology. The look is global, and the internet has been key to people looking and getting inspired from all corners of the world to get out and have fun.

Its interesting to see see how low-tech and low-brow cars are often owned by technofiles. Surely people into use and live with technology as a part of their daily existance would want to drive hi-tech machines ... but not.

I find the whole thing facinating ... it continues to re-invent itself so often, that its impossible to lable, and the spin off art/music/fashion/tech that drives it both influences and is influence by it.

Jont judge it, just sit back, grab a beer, build a MySpace site and join in (if you want to).

Great post ... now off for my Hoodride Fix and Cruise MySpace for more sub-dubbery.

crewcab have you check out this site
http://airpix.skynetblogs.be/?date=20060712&number=96&unit=months#3505580
AIRPIX

thats the shit ay. Good find, guess Ive just lost another hour a day....lol....VWs and Photoshop...mmmmmmmmmm




I want this...now...

[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by crewcabconnection ]

links ,links,links:thumb

So, ahh, what's Cal-Look, then, kiddies?

And how am I going to judge 'lifestyle', 'good times' and 'sub-culture' and 'fun times' from a car sitting in front of me?

Fair dinkum, some of you blokes need to get your head out of the clouds

[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by VWCOOL ]

The good thing is there are clubs like the WA VW Club who are willing to open the door to new ideas. There's a chance the same thing will happen here in Victoria at the DOVW. There are owners who would like to be accepted and recognised, and associations who are willing to accept and recognise.
Let's face it....if it's got a VW badge on it...you're a brother... (or sister).

Great to hear that this is going to be a category in WA.

I agree with what crewcabconnection said, but think that some deliberately-made rats can be very cool too! Obviously a 'real' rat will take away peoples choice honours, but let's not hate on the fake rats, or any subculture within the scene for that matter.

VWCOOL - if it's not your thing forget it, no need to try to patronise those who are in love with all things rat.

One thing not mentioned, is that a rat does not have fibreglass guards.

Rats are about being minimalist.....getting the suspension, brakes and drivetrain strong to handle the power of the big bucks motor - all wrapped up in a sleeper exterior.

Thanks for your input. It was very informative and at times entertaining. We will consider your advice. Keep it rolling.

Lobus. The WA Day of the VW this year will be on Sunday 3rd of December at G O Edwards Park in Burswood (where it was last year) from 10 am to 3 pm, come rain or shine.

Wow, What a debate!

Have a look at these two cars.........





Both were built by me and I call them both rats, because I built them.

We shouldn't be judging other peoples rides,
just respect that they are doing what they think is cool.

We are a fairly minimalist group in the VW scene the last thing we need is division in the ranks!

Rhettro

This is a rat

this is a volkswagen

:kiss

kkk

ren wrote:Great to hear that this is going to be a category in WA.

I agree with what crewcabconnection said, but think that some deliberately-made rats can be very cool too! Obviously a 'real' rat will take away peoples choice honours, but let's not hate on the fake rats, or any subculture within the scene for that matter.

VWCOOL - if it's not your thing forget it, no need to try to patronise those who are in love with all things rat.

Uh huh... Ok, good luck with the judging! Will you be checking the owner's undies to make sure they're wearing boxers and not Bonds?!

Or will you be happy to judge just the car in front of them, which is what the WA fellers are attempting to do?

squizy wrote:One thing not mentioned, is that a rat does not have fibreglass guards.

Rats are about being minimalist.....getting the suspension, brakes and drivetrain strong to handle the power of the big bucks motor - all wrapped up in a sleeper exterior.

May I beg to differ - that's a Cal. Or a GL. A rat comes from a shed in its 'purest' form. Big engine or not.
If someone wants to wrap his whole life/fashion/attitude around that, then fine. But that can't be judged at a car show!

From what I have noticed of the whole VW rat ride sceen, it is more than the car, usually an overall attitude of the individual, almost anti establishment. It ia also apparent it is more about good times, and not about judging, trophies or egos. I have even rread some sites that suggest that in the US VW scene it was born out of being people over the mainstream US VW scene, shiny paint, and judging. One thing is for certain, it has bred new life and ways of thinking into a car culture that has been pretty stagnent for years. Any show regular will attest to this based on the same cars that enter the shows year on year without change. A real rat ride owner wouldnt really care for a tropy or to be judged.

Here is the Hood Ride Story.

HoodRide was created not off of a traditional business model, but off an idea for a better car community. I can't speak for everyone, but I feel a lack of respect for one another when it comes to anything car related. No longer will I put up with ego's, the "better than you" attitude, the disrespect, the put downs, the car show judges, the arrogant magazines, etc. Cars were first ment to be functional and second to be stylish. Who decided cars were first meant to be status and second to be fun and exciting? HoodRides are first and always unique, loved, driven, and fun. If you feel the same, you're in the right place. You are NOT your car, you're just the dumbass who's in love with it!

So if someone drags an oval out of a dam, slams it and drives it everyday to work, regardless of the crazy looks it gets, from other motorists, its not a pure rat, cause it didnt come from a shed. You are confused.

Hertz wrote:So if someone drags an oval out of a dam, slams it and drives it everyday to work, regardless of the crazy looks it gets, from other motorists, its not a pure rat, cause it didnt come from a shed. You are confused.

LOL true true or a padock its not a rat if it comes from out side:duh and hertz there is such things as water rats LOL ive seen the tv show

koolkarmas dapper rat got better shine than most rats😂
and his belly dose scrap the ground.

[ Edited on 16-8-2006 by malcolm ]

i think it has 2 be a special car " with a sertain look already" wether that be rust or just some old nana has banged it up for 40 years. and the only rule i think the older the car the beter it is i think its a hard thing to coment on . as for the hot rod rats thats a diffrent thing all 2 gether thay are like i read b4 a 30's style car done in the 50's this is a 50'-60's cars done in 2000+ the idear's of cars have changed a lot with plastic fantastic but thay all have a place .so sit back mix up some stop rust and do your own thing thats my 2c worth let the people work it out on the day :thumb:thumb:thumb

So when does a vn Crummydore become a rat?

squashed rat 🙁🙁

i feel ill

As has already been said,
RAT comes from the early HOT ROD days 40s & 50s
when they would spend their money on the mechanicals for racing and power ,not the paint job.

So what happened is that a whole series of rusty ,primered HOT RODS where getting around with performance and wearing this mean dirty LOOK!
The idear was" so what if it looks ugly, I'm hear to race!"

Then what happened is a Magasine published an artical on this growing trend and coined the saying ROD RAT.
The hot rod seen hated the name, and desiped the thought that there cars could be called RATS!

The name stuck and contributed to this growing culture of the RAT LOOK.Well its no surprise that volkswagon ,generating from this period and a long association with drag racing has welcomed this new culture.

Couple off things we do learn though from this history lesson is that a true rat has good mechanicals and has a strong leaning in the hot rod scene.

Another thing which is interesting is that a rat is not a rust peice of crap pulled out of a barn.
A Rat has to be created,restored, and evolved to make a true elements of a rat.

Anyone who loves rat has to have an artistic side,its art based.
Maybe if you don't like RATS, you might need to look for your creative side and then your appreciation will grow.

Shed/Barn/Carport/Paddock/Garage/Workshop etc.,

Art comes from the SOUL, not any other above. Quasi is right on the money.

My 2c worth......

a rat for my money is a hot rod built by someone who isnt worried too much about the appearance. The point being that they didnt worry about the finish, and if they had more Time or Money probably would have had a schmick paint job, but its low on the list of priorities. Built by guys more concerned about mechanical quality than finish.

Now most of these "rat" owners these days are the excact opposite, they are only concerned about appearance!!

And whats with worshipping rust? :jesus

I think calling your car a rat is used by some people as a cop out because they have no talent or skill to build a decent car

imho only.

Seems to me there are two different kinds of Rats in the VW scene.
1. Cars like Hertz, Humpty's, caffienepusher's (sadly now smashed) and VWfools old oval. Old, rough on the outside and low with period performance parts and or accessories. I'd tend to call these the "rats". Resto custom with rust.
2. Then there are the Rods. Greedy's, stoppa's and a number of other fenderless VWs in the hotrod style.

They are not the same although some things do overlap. For instance, Stoppa's car could really be more classed as a custom with all the body and chassis mods. But then what about some of the rats with bags and heavily narrowed beams? They are heavily customized too. Some of those sorts of mods also take as much work as a chop job to get right.

I think judging them should be done the same way it is for other show cars. Judges are looking for attention to detail, a new idea or approach, a unifying concept or theme, and clever engineering. It's how they stand up to that scrutiny that tells you how good they are. But as many of you say, at the end of the day it comes down to personal tastes. Clubs are just large groups of people with similar tastes and interests. If you think they have a good grasp of where you are coming from with your rat or rod, then enter and let the club judges judge your car. You might pick up some good pointers about how to improve it. If you don't think they will understand, don't enter and be happy with the car because it's your car. If you are trying to make a statement and know you are going against the grain, don't expect to win, just do it to broaden others horizons. 🙂

yah what he said and so artfully sure wouldn't like getting to a verbal stoush with ya but it would probably nbe a pleasure to listern to

thanks pete my car was always safety first good brakes tyres lowered but safe suspension ratty on top but engineered below as i have always built my cars .no sense going hard if you cant stop! make way for the new ghia super well engineered with rattier than ever top going a new direction with it doing a minimal thing rather than the over accesorised angle .stay tuned folks long live the rats......

I see a true rat as being a fully roadworthy vehicle that remains unrestored on the outside.... not grossly abused and neglected and done shoddy... but with its fair share of dings and scratches and texture, and with the only bodywork done being that which is necessary to prevent the spread of cancer, with the majority of the attention paid to the mechanicals, as per Cafeeinepusherchris' philosophy. 😂 More or less my idea of a true rat is a vehicle with the minmum ammount of time and money spent on it to maintain it to a high standard of roadworthiness.

As somebody or another said... you can't get home on chrome.

I would call CPM's sadly departed bug and the fish's bus in it's present state good examples of a rat (plenty will disagree i'm sure so feel free to interject but keep it nice)... ugly but not overly rusty and mechanically perfect 😎

I dont personally think flash rims or having the car dropped on it's guts are entirely necessary to qualify a car as a rat either... but they dont make it not one, however I think this might be where the term rat-rod seems to come into play... when enhancements are made to the vehicle from stock, but appearance still takes low priority. Unless however such "enhancements" are made to a rusty bogged to the teeth heap of shit which is barely clinging to life... that is not a rat but a polished turd! :duh

I see ride's like kombibob's splitty, and to a small extent the SSB bug as being relatively good examples of rat-rods, rather than pure rats.

Really tho, I thinking asking somebody to define a rat is like asking "how long is a piece of string?".... there are no clearly defined boundaries... however as many have said already, there is a big difference between a well-maintained p[roper rat and just a plain old heap of shit that somebody is trying to pass off as a rat so they can look cool or get away with not fixing rust. :roll: 😂

Flame away... 😂

Defined by the number of rat nests found while cleaning.

So far, the '57 'Rat' project has unearthed 4, the biggest containing 20 peach seeds lining the nest.

A Rat winner must also keep and display theses nests at shows for authenticity.

Now we're getting somewhere. There's your measuring stick. Of course!!

On the whole I would agree with most of what has been said here, but the truth be known, it is very hard to define a RAT.... But in the context of the VW scene and the HOODRIDE philosophy (which is not the same as RAT by the way), you would have to say that the car should be in mostly OG paint, but well (read: naturally) aged resprays are acceptable, period accessories (performance or luxury) are a bonus, preferably slammed, narrowed is good, No bling at all!, earlier the better (60's or earlier IMHO), upgraded running gear is ok, though not nessassary. The car must exude a certain hotrod attitude, be a little anti-establishment, fairly straight and solid, though small dents are acceptable, maybe a little rusty, though not a shit pile. No fibre glass (unless its period parts like a Kamei spoiler or a EMPI/FAT Performance engine cover), not shitty 80's looking body kits. No chop job convertibles and not 'custom' body mods. Though it can be styled along a theme like retro racer style, but the OG thing is the best option. If you take my car as an example, it is a little out of the ordinary. It has story, I bought from the OG owners and it sat in a carport since 1975. The paint is OG, its never been smashed, there are few dings, it is coverd in light body rust, but no holes, it has all the OG fittings, guards, chrome, glass, doors and running boards. It has most of the OG interior (though I don't have correct front seats 🙁 ), but it has period correct race seats and performance interior parts. Underneath my car is a little different than most other... I have a completely rebuilt undercarriage with 4 wheel disc brakes, 205 PCD raders, 4" narrowed adjustable beam & drop spindles, currently a close ratio Swingaxle transaxle and mild 1776 built in the old school cal-look style with hot-rod mixed in.... And it is VERY low in the best pan scraping tradition.

So I guess its a mix of a lot of styles, but to me its more hot-rod mixed with old school pre-cal-look style, with a little resto-cal thrown in and slammed in the Hoodride tradition..... Now how the hell are you gonna pidgeon hole that?

[ Edited on 18-9-2006 by humpty ]