Just found a reasonably objective source of info for the continuing 1916/94mm barrels debacle. Aircooled.net had this to say:
"94mm: NOW we're talkin'! 94mm cylinders have the SAME cylinder wall thickness as the stock 85.5mm set (1600cc). A slight drawback, however is that since the fin area is the same, and the engine is now larger, these DO run slightly hotter than stock or 90.5 piston sets. [mine runs at about 80-90 degrees, with standard cooling, and all tinware馃檪] When these were first introduced, I did NOT trust them! 92s had problems, so how were 94s going to be better? Well, the jury is in and 94s WORK. Reliability is very good; you can expect about 50K miles before a tear down and replacement is needed. Some sets HAVE gone over 100K miles when low compression and sane driving are exercised. The machining for 94s costs slightly more than 90.5s -- in addition to "boring", you must have the case "decked", so they do cost a little more to build (even though the piston set is about the same price as the 90.5mm). The additional displacement is definitely worth it.馃榾馃榾"
my two cents: if you can't get a decent deck done on the case you might as well go for stock p&c's, as unless the case is DEAD true you're wasting power. Iwish I understood what I just said... :S
Tazzielittle 路
I was runing 94's in the fastie.
Trouble with Type3's is cooling.
But it seems with the external cooler fitted with a thermo fan. solved problem.
Now if i can just get the fuel to stay in the tank... 馃檨馃檨馃檨
Peter Leonard 路
for the uninitiated, square brackets contain additional unquoted material.[anythign in here is not part of the original quote, it's just an aside] okay 馃槈 馃榾
OvalGlen 路
Peter , do you run additional oil cooling or have made more air available to engine ( like ducting ? ). ?.
oh and having the pistons run exact right angles to the crank really helps - thats why I like to get my engine blocks decked , and the cam and line bore done accurately.
jakriz 路
Peter,
I'm also having my new 94mm barrels Ceramic coated to disipate the heat a little better on the track. I'll eventually have the pistons done as well when finances allow. I'm pretty sure that this would help street cars, type 3's in particular.
regards
Jak
Tazzielittle 路
Hey jak, let me know how it goes, costs and such.
I would be interested to know.
jakriz 路
Tazzie,
It costs $70 per barrel, which is a lot but only has to be done once & thats it, & the pistons are $60 each & they have 2 seperate coatings, one for the crown to handle the heat, & a teflon type coating on the skirt of the piston to handle wear inside the barrel. I can only pressume that this would have to be done again at rebuild time as it would pressumably wear off over time.
regards
Jak
Quickbug 路
All i can say is - i give my 1916cc hell, day in and day out. I drive it to work and get stuck in peak hour. I flog it up to 160km/h+ on the freeways, ~125km/h for extended driving periods and i cain it hard off the lights. Ill have a drag with anything that comes my way.
No external cooler, stock tinware and the bitch is still going hard 3 years later.
Tazzielittle 路
But quickbug.... your running it in a beetle.
I'm running mine in a early Type3.
Type3's are a pain to keep cool at the best of times, stick a 1916 in it.... and you have more drama's. The late Type3's have the vents on the guards facing so it grabs tha air as it passes. The early ones are the other way round. It has to suck it in.
Thanks Jak, will be looking at that before i put the 1916 back together.
$70 isn't alot if you think about the alternative.
kafer70 路
I'm glad to here all these positive comments on the 1914 as I've just had my case prepped for the 94 mm barrels.
I'd heard some bad reports and wondered whether I'd picked the right engine to build.
Can't wait to finish the engine now (although i'ts a way off yet) so I can retire the 1500.馃榾
Bizarre 路
...I've just had my case prepped for the 94 mm barrels.
Ok tell us what you did.
I took the easy route and went 1775.
Did you deck the case?
What did you do about that lip the barrels sit on?
What studs did your case have?
Case savers?
If so - what sive?
Sorry to throw you in it but it is interesting to ask Q's of some one who "is doing it"
Bizarre 路
How the hell did i do "itallics"? :o
kafer70 路
Yes the case has been decked and case savers installed for the smaller studs 6mm I think. I've also drilled and tapped the oil gals. for an external cooler/filter
I've been guided alot by a guy who builds race engines and sometimes it's hard juggling between whats recommended and whats affordable i.e cw crank.
Bizarre 路
Kafer
tell me more.
What cam are you going with?
Heads?
Did you go with a CW?
What carbs are you going to run?
Heads?
Port work?
Compression ratio?
Yeah - just tell me to go jump!
:P
Craig Torrens 路
mmmmm doesn't ceramic coating keep heat in ?
isn't it used for insulation on exhaust to keep heat out of engine bays, and stoves etc ?
how will it dissipate heat ?
Were does the coating go when it wears off? in the oil ?
kafer70 路
Blue741 I'm not being evasive but some of your questions I havn't put a lot of thought into yet. I'm still gathering parts.
Trying to find cam grind for you will let you know. It's not to wild. carbs are another issue would love to run twin carbs. built an 1835 some years back with a webber but always wanted twins maybe kadrons.
As you will notice this project is in the early stages. spent to much time regretting going the 94 mm and lost some interest. Spent allocated funds elsewhere so have to start again.
Would also love to turbo or run a blower 2lt toyota type who knows if costs permit.
Tazzielittle 路
Hey kafer...
Might be your lucky day!
Give me a ring regarding the KADS.
Peter Leonard 路
my 1916 runs cool enough with stock cooling. With everyday driving it'll never go over 100 degrees, no matter how hot the ambient temp is. I have a bigger oil pump than standard, and ALL the tinware intact. U gotta make sure your dub aint sucking hot exhaust air into the fan, so plug any holes left by heat risers or missing heater tubing (i found a coke can bottom to be a great high performance mod, when allied with silicon around the holes in the skirt) be wary of cheap aftermarket fan housings; they tend to drop fins after a while (big tragedy), so stick to good ol vw ones, and stay away from CHROME! flat black may not look as cool, but it IS cooler. black radiates heat way better. ramble ramble
last but not least, build it well, it'll run cool. friction and sloppy tolerances mean more heat. beetles have great aerodynamics (just not 4 high speed unfortunately) and pump a hell of a lot of air thru the back vents at speed. also a super fast hoodjack unit fits on mine if I'm feeling a bit crazy or have to do 150 for more than a few hours 馃檪 this drops temps by ten to fifteen degrees.
Peter Leonard 路
some people prefer sprite cans but nyeh.馃榾
jakriz 路
I've also had all my tinware ceramic coated black, it helps drematically.
regards
Jak
vw54 路
Craig
I am with you on this one
mmmmm doesn't ceramic coating keep heat in
Jak why are you coating the outside of the barrell. I can understand coating the top of the piston and the combustion chamber where Ideally it would keep the heat in the chamber and therefore enhance the ignition of fuel.
This has been done for years on Aircraft engines and hi Performance cars... while i was a QF we did some pistons and heads for Larry Perkins.
As Craig said why are you trying to keep the heat in the barrell.... which has fins cast onto it and sits in the cooling airflow allowing heat disapiation and therefore engine cooling ???
If anything i would get a grinder and remove all the casting marks and dags out of the cooling fin area... allowing better air flow. I have done this on most of my engines and cylinder heads... less chance of creating a hot spot.
Craig Torrens 路
jakriz wrote:I've also had all my tinware ceramic coated black, it helps drematically.
regards
Jak
What/how did it dramatically help?
1 Engine temp (oil , head etc)
Not too sure how it would help this?
2 Engine bay temp
did you do any comparisons with original tinware?
Not disputing your claim , just wanting to know if it is worth the time and effort to remove the tinware etc ?
Approx cost ? 馃檪
P.S I hope you have not already coated the barrells!
jakriz 路
Theres more than one type of ceramic coating guys, c'mon, theres so many types & functions u could have almost everything on your engine done, & I do mean everything. Theres absolutely no reason why our "ancient" lawnmower engines can't benifit from this type of technology. I would have thought that u would have been right up on this type of thing Craig, being a racer & all.
regards
Jak
jakriz 路
Craig, the stuff works for me, Steve Carter got me into it & I've never looked back, I'm only going forward.
regards
Jak
PS U take your tinware off? I heard that u don't pull your motor out for anything??? & besides, why would u want to ruin that lovely looking Cadium plating on your tinware?? (I'M KIDDING , I'M KIDDING!!!!)
[Edited on 24-4-2003 by jakriz]
Craig Torrens 路
Maybe a "technology" for you Jak, but I see no real benefit.I was hoping you may shed some new light on an old topic , but you have not really answered my question.
Maybe Steve could explain it better?
My tinwear is black !
, just wanting to know if it is worth the time and effort to remove the tinware etc ?
Read the quote Jak, wanted to know if it was worth removing as I never do!
jakriz 路
Well champ, I don't think that it would benifit u at all to be quite honest, Does your engine get really hot on those 30 second runs??
I'm being serious here, not having a jab.
regards
Jak
pS does Stan know your tinware is black?
(I'M KIDDING!!!!!!!)
vw54 路
Yes i am still wondering as well
I can understand it on the exhaust where u want to stop radiant heat ...
but i dont understand why you want to keep heat inside the barrells.
I know Baja Wes did some experiments on this ???
Craig Torrens 路
Jak, for my 30sec hillclimb runs, no I don't need it. But my car is used for other motor sport events as well.
Really not interested in getting into another "Ben"scenario with this thread.
I'm asking a fair question.
There are plenty of people that may benefit if it is worth while!
jakriz 路
I have know idea what the Ben scenario is, but I wasn't aware that u did other types of motorsport with your car.
I have know idea of all the technical terms & funtions of cramic coatings, all I know is that Steve gave me the No. for a coatings place at Guilford, I called them, told them what I was doing with the car & asked them if I could benifit from there service. The list of things they could do & the applications for eny part of my motor was mind blowing, they can coat oil coolers, the lot.
It's worked for me. If u are really interested , give him a call, theres no need to be afraid of the unknown. I'll post his No. when I find it.
Meanwhile, I've got t get off my computer & go put my new motor in the car!
regards
Jak
Peter Leonard 路
I have a ceramic coffee mug 馃榾
JAK. buddy, your assessment of the viability and performance would probably be less biased than a person who makes a living doing the coatings.... get the point?
heat dissipation is improved by surface area exposed to the coolant (in most cases online here it's air), so leaving your barrels, block and heads rough cast and sandy looking is actually cooler than polishing them up.
:thumb
jakriz 路
Who said anything about polishing them up??? do u know what ceramic coating is?
I'm out, help yourselves.
Jak 馃槧
jakriz 路
Actually, I take that back, I'd like u guys to try this stuff out, especially us with 94mm barrels, if u are still not convinced after talking with this guy then thats fine.
regards
Jak
COMPETITION COATINGS
Robert Benk
10 Fernell Street
Guilford
2161
PH02 98922218
-Ceramic Barrier Coating
-Dry Film Lubricant
-Solid Film Lubricant
-Thermal Dispersants
-Metallic Ceramic Coatings
-Black Ceramic
-Teflon Coating
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Peter Leonard 路
vw 54 sed....
"If anything i would get a grinder and remove all the casting marks and dags out of the cooling fin area... allowing better air flow. I have done this on most of my engines and cylinder heads... less chance of creating a hot spot. [/quote]
the comment about polishing wasn't directed at you, jak, but inspired by vw 54's post, and in reference to some polished and shiny cases and barrels i've seen.
rarrrrrr 馃榾
dub1972 路
I'm about to build a AS41 case 1915cc for my 72 super. Thinking about 74mmCW crank also.
2 x 36 Dells, 110 cam, 40 x 35.5 heads, full flow.
Is cool tin any good and should I run a deep sump and external cooler in the full flow circuit?
KruizinKombi 路
Removing casting marks is very different to polishing.
Removing casting marks will allow the cooling fins to operate as they are supposed to. I'm quite certain that casting dags are not part of VW's intended design - they are a manufacturing flaw caused by mass production and restrict airflow.
Polishing creates a smooth surface which reduces turbulence. Turbulence slows the speed at which air passes over the surface of the cooling fins, effectively allowing more time for heat to pass from the surface to the adjacent air. Some turbulence will enhance an engine's ability to disipate heat. 馃檪
jakriz 路
dub1972 wrote:I'm about to build a AS41 case 1915cc for my 72 super. Thinking about 74mmCW crank also.
2 x 36 Dells, 110 cam, 40 x 35.5 heads, full flow.
Is cool tin any good and should I run a deep sump and external cooler in the full flow circuit?
Thats pretty muc what my motor is, 73x94, I'm running the coole tin from a type 3 with a deep sump , type 4 oil cooler & a Mazda RX7 cooler above the gearbox.
regards
Jak
dub1972 路
Jak,
I just noticed you are on the Central Coast. I am at Koolewong. My super has a way to go yet. Body is currently off the pan and one side heater channel is out waiting for the first new one to be welded in. When the weather is like this thoughts go to the engine and box.
dub1972 路
Jak,
Is your RX7 cooler in the full flow circuit and if it is what hose fittings do you use? I havn't had VW engine machining work done for 21 years so I don't know costs yet. Any ideas?
Ben, a discussion on 1914s (or 94s) is not a good place to post solid advice (it's a religion.) 馃榾
[Sorry about the edit -something strange came out. BTW - I was just stirring you 94 guys.]
[Edited on 4-5-2003 by 70AutoStik]
56astro 路
馃榾
Yeah Pete
We're all a little punch-drunk at the moment.
Craig Torrens 路
ahhhhh the good old days !
StenGuns 路
This read was enlightening (I think).. Thanks
toplessbug 路
o k so are we all up on ceramic coatings yet??? competition coatings is the best thing to happen to an AC motor i rekon ,there are others but i have used these guys and found them very good ,my new big T4 will be getting the full treatment:beer:beer:beer
76bug 路
so jak have u done any before and after tests wit the ceramic coating?