Sad week, but parents of teens, please take note...

A kid I know in year 11, just got his Ps w few weeks ago. He was pretty excited at getting out on the weekend in his VK Commodore his oldies had helped him buy. Tragically, it came to rest in a tree on Saturday night, killing him outright and seriously injuring his younger brother.

Obviously this is heartbreaking stuff, but if you are a parent with a teen, please don't let them out with a few weeks experience in shite weather driving an old car.

Might not appy to anyone here, but its another reminder that young drivers, crap weather, old cars, peer pressure and lack of experience is a killer mix.

The kid was not a hot head, in fact one of the quiet ones.

Sadly missed, but figure it's a message we can't pass on enough.

Sorry to butt in, but I think this is a message for the teens too.
-Staggers.

No it's not because 'I'm not gunna crash'

yeah... a guy i went to school with met a tree a few years ago... i found out about it on christmas day... opened the paper and he was looking at me.

suffice to say that all my friends were in shock and upon going to see the tree i found one of the windscreen wipers.

i think every young driver has to understand how horrible it is... but i don't believe that they will, until they are standing there holding a windscreen wiper from the car of somebody they knew themselves 🙁

some schools are helping the situation though.

my school had 2 hr periods on a day of the week for 5 weeks in yr 12, with officials from the local police, fire and rescue squad, ambos, some law official dude, and some schoolies advisor/planner or something...

and the fire and rescue squad especially gave a good run at the vulnerability of teens. alot of graphic pictures and stories of situations, and a demo of how they chop up a car to get someone out (Greatfully, some old bomb holden)

later that yr, the school also offered defense driving courses not just for Provisional drivers, but also learners.

They did a good job. Mind u, was a private school. Where u weren't suppose to drive to school, unless u got authorisation. Not sure what the state school system is like, do they do any of this stuff?

As a firefighter i have cut too many people out of cars. Whether you think you are a good driver or not there are unavoidable situations on the road that can present fatal results! Having the attitude of "it wont happen to me" isnt good enough. Sadly most of the drunk drivers out there arent the ones affected, but the families and friends of the innocent people they kill. Have cut too many "P" platers out of cars too, not just because they were dickheads, but becasue they were unable to handle or react to the situation they were presented with on the roads...

Ash x

What ever happened to just driving sedatley and 'parking' to enjoy the serenity.

i have lost a mate to a driving accident however i think saying that parents shouldnt let kids out in bad weather and old cars is a rediculous thing to ask.

most teenagers cant afford a new car and getting their license is a way of stating their 'freedom' so to speak.

now parents telling their kids not to go out at all cos its bad weather would only cause problems.

its more a message of DRIVE SAFE..

this happens to older people in the rain as well as the terrible 'p' platers most speak of,


Anthony

MISS_VDUB wrote:As a firefighter i have cut too many people out of cars. Whether you think you are a good driver or not there are unavoidable situations on the road that can present fatal results! Having the attitude of "it wont happen to me" isnt good enough. Sadly most of the drunk drivers out there arent the ones affected, but the families and friends of the innocent people they kill. Have cut too many "P" platers out of cars too, not just because they were dickheads, but becasue they were unable to handle or react to the situation they were presented with on the roads...

Ash x

I think I love you haha... not many people understand how horrible the aftermath is. They see it on the news and think "oh yeah... a car with a sheet on it"... They should consider themselves lucky that they never see what it truly looks like! 🙁

I have been cut out of a car, i was the passenger, what happened was the guy drivin was doin about 120kph and the back tyre blew out and instead of just easing off on the gas he hit the picks and the car veered off the road and rolled three times. My neck was severely sprained and i couldn't move, the firemen cut me out with the jaws of life and they were about three inches from my face scary shit. I'm all good now, bigger, stronger and better. This happened back in 92, and to this day i have not been in another accident, touch wood. Once again Defensive driving courses should be mandatory, i have done one and the skills taught are imbedded in your brain forever, remember people 2 -3 seconds gap between cars no matter what the speed, shame commodore drivers don't understand physics.

yeah, they don't. saw some dick head in a dunnydore yesterday evening burning out his tyres and flying forward in a busy carpark, people and a few kids around... idiot

Apparently u can dob these dophis's in though

A few years after I got my licence, I crashed a mate's Subaru. The situation was late friday night, dirt road out the back of Wiseman's Ferry. Basically I offered to drive coz the guy who owned the car's eye were getting tired. I wasn't driving like an idiot but I came round a downhill corner and lost the back end of the car. I tried to correct and keep the powerdown, which is what you do in a 2wd. However, the subaru was awd and I kept overcorrecting. Finally it got to the point where it was so sideways it clipped a tree and spun around launching off a sizable rock and spearing down the side of the steep mountain the road was on. After pushing a heap of sapplings over, it came to rest almost touching a large gum measuring 3 metres in circumference round the trunk. The guy who owned the car was a landscaper and had garden stakes in the back of the car which shot down between the front seats like javelins.
My brother and I both walked away. The car was written off from where it clipped the tree initially.
I see now, we could have been killed 4 ways;
1. clipping the wrong tree.
2. hitting the rock head on.
3. being speared by the garden stakes.
4. hitting the large gum properly.
This is not taking into account the possibility of rolling or anything else.
And this was a low speed accident. I'd estimate I was doing less than 60km/h when it all happened. We just go a bit sideways in the wrong place, and I was inexperienced.
I think every driver should have to do advanced training. Skid control. Emergency braking. Etc. Getting a driver's licence is too easy. Anyone can steer, what we need is people who can "drive" properly.

Let me tell you another story. A family I know well sent 3 sons off together in the family Volvo. The oldest son was driving. He lost control of the car, it rolled and his youngest brother died. They have never completely recovered. The eldest brother's life is a bit all over the place, and I think a lot of it can be traced back to that event. How could you live with the guilt?

🙁

i lost a good mate of mine to a crash with a tree aswell and it isnt the best thing to be going to a good mates funeral at the age of 18 it just absolutely sucks big time!! carrying a mates coffin isnt something i wanted to do at 18 i tell u that!!
it surely woke me and many of my mates up thats for sure!!

kombi-kid. i have had to do that twice now, once at the age of 17 and once at the age of 18...i know what you mean.

Anthony

unfortunately the old "i got my Ps im god" thing i dont think will ever go away no matter how much we preach about it
instant idiots just add water will always exist and its not till they have an accidnt that most of them learn and even this isnt enough ususally
i will put my hand up and admit that i dont have my first superbug anymore because at the time power sliding out of a corner in the wet was fun till i lost control and a tree jumped out at me
i was just lucky i didnt pick my little brother up like i was supposed to at the time or the accident would have been alot worse

-Joel

As we have all suffered loss of friend or bloody good mates i feel i will add. It is neither the conditions or car, yes they attribute, lack of time on a parents behalf is becoming a common thing as with this fast paced world getting faster, how many of our old man's would've taken us out for " a driving lesson" and these always got better each time you went. Too much urban sprawl and lack of dirt are becoming all too familiar. Experience = being put into a semi controlled (only because the old mans there) disaster and then being told what to do. Time in equals time out time & time again. Put the kids in the dirt in a car and show them something they are not going to learn, until it is too late.

I offer my sympathy to crewcabconnection and the family more immediately as it wasnt too long ago my good mate was a victim of the old "i just didnt look, I didn't see him".

hear hear...tell it like it is.... I've had two nasty bike accidents, with long slow, painfull recoveries that will continue to affect me for the rest of my life....its just gotta be said... I hate telling young riders and drivers, cos I hate to sound all patronising, but I try to put it back on me, and tell them all the things I could have done to avoid the accidents.... so keep talking about it... till the awareness sinks in.... cheers

Iwish4aSynchro wrote:It is neither the conditions or car, yes they attribute, lack of time on a parents behalf is becoming a common thing as with this fast paced world getting faster, how many of our old man's would've taken us out for " a driving lesson" and these always got better each time you went. Too much urban sprawl and lack of dirt are becoming all too familiar. Experience = being put into a semi controlled (only because the old mans there) disaster and then being told what to do. Time in equals time out time & time again. Put the kids in the dirt in a car and show them something they are not going to learn, until it is too late.

I'm in between both ends of this situation at the moment, being young enough to remember the driving lessons I did with the old man, and "old" enough to have a 10 year old son which is starting to scare me with driving age approaching. I know its 6-8 years but time flies.

I'm not sure if more seat time with the old man going round in the 'burbs would have helped my skills. Sure he taught me all he could but after all its not like you're going to go for a hoon with the old man and be shown how to do it. Well I didn't anyway. So you get in the car on your own and do something stupid, and who knows how its going to turn out? Luckily for me I guess I didn't do anything too dumb, but a few times it could have gone pear shaped.

I don't know the answer, but I do agree with advanced driving courses. Show new drivers what it feels like to lose control in a "controlled environment" and how to recover, and maybe they won't do it on the roads with a car full of mates.

A lifetime of commonsense is about all I can try and offer my boys, then give them the lessons and maybe some advanced courses. Even then all you can do is hope for the best. I also reckon that if I help him build his first car rather than just buying one he might have some respect for it, you know, take care of the car = take care of yourself. 3 Kids, I'm gonna be busy building cars.

Condolences to anyone affected by road deaths, its a nasty way to go, especially when a teenager is involved. No parent should have to bury their kids, its meant to be the other way around.

All i have is to say it to drive slower and more carefully! Better to get there in one peice than not at all..
I'm 20 and have had two accidents myself.. one major.. wrote off my '87 corolla and another person's mazda.. i only had my car for a fortnight and didn't have insurance.. so i'm paying back $12,000 in total. Lesson learned!

That said, Car crashes, people being killed.. is just a way of life.. its always going to be there. Unless we build a perfect car that runs on rails... but then where would the thrill of driving be without the danger?

Oh, and i think that video games have thier part in driver education.. provided they are realistic ones.
Games such as Gran Turismo give a fairly realistic feeling of a car loosing control and how to control it.. being a car and computer nut i've played this game quite alot.. and i feel it has actually increased my driving skill.. back when i first got my P plates and i had a beat up old '69 Beetle.. i lost control in the wet.. so i did what i would do in the game.. turn into it and apply slight throttle.. i did so.. and hey presto! It worked!
The downside to this is ofcourse games like the Need For Speed series.. it says it in the title really.. its all about going fast.. and the faster you go.. the better you are.. and the cars handle VERY unrealistically.. too many kids play these kinda games and think their real car can take a hairpin at 200km/h....

I had a pretty serious incident when I was 16. Took mums car to TAFE unlicenced, on the way back doing 100 in a 60 zone, all set to cut a bend but then a kombi came along the other way. I swerved, went through a fence, over a tree and came to rest on another tree. No injuries, just expense. Could have hit kombi head on, or a power pole, or the tree could have been bigger, or there could have been kids in the front yard.

Just spoke to my bro who's a music teacher in a country town not far from Sydney. One of their yr12s was on his way to maccas yesterday when he lost control of his car on a back street and hit a tree. Seems he wasn't even driving stupidly. He died of his injuries today. He is the only child of a single mum and a nice kid.

When will this end. 🙁

You might like to pray for his mum,
And also his schoolmates, who have to sit their HSC very soon.

jo_tas wrote:Oh, and i think that video games have thier part in driver education.. provided they are realistic ones.
Games such as Gran Turismo give a fairly realistic feeling of a car loosing control and how to control it.. being a car and computer nut i've played this game quite alot.. and i feel it has actually increased my driving skill..

I agree! played it for years, and the loosing control part, and gaining control, + the rally with the wheels slipping and trying to get it back together, it does give u a bit. Not exactly as good as say doing it in a defense course, but certainly keeps ya away from being clueless.

Neva had to use the skills learnt in real life though... yet. Lucky i haven't been in that situation.

It's a tragedy that these kids are dying coz they are not properly trained. Want to train yourself and your kids to drive more safely and control a car better? Come to this.

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=55732&page=1#pid534523

$30 for adults, $15 for juniors (12-17)yo. Time to enter now. We've had 2 kids die in two weeks. Let's not be the next statistic.

Sadly wisdom and experience is something you have to develop, and even then sheer bad luck can defeat that. There's no good way to put an old head on young shoulders.
I've been riding bikes close to 20 years or so now, lost a lot of friends, have had a few horrific injuries myself, some my fault, some not.
Between the start of last December and mid January I lost three of my closest friends in seperate bike accidents, none of them being overtly silly or speeding, just sheer bad luck. I think it's almost harder to deal with when you know they wern't playing silly buggers 🙁

But as for young people, I don't know, not sure there is an answer, even the sedate ones might get a bad roll of the dice, or suffer a momentary lapse of reason, guess it's a case of hoping they dont run out of talent before they amass some experience 🙁

i dont reckon racing simulator games improve driver skill :o
to many ppl think they can get behind the wheel of a car and drive just as well as they do on nd4spd and GT
theres a very HUGE difference in controlling a car with a controller and the real thing and too many ppl forget this

on the subject of Gran Turismo 4 has anyone noticed that there is no power differnce at all between the 68 1500 karmann ghia and the split window 1100 beetle :duh

-Joel

we brought my partners kids up on small 50 - 80cc motorcross bikes in the country taught them how to brake skid go round corners and fall off, my partners daughter's first car was an old volvo, no power steering, heavy as a tank 4 cyclinder not much power, the boy drove an old holden, now both in their 30's they have turned out to be fairly good sensible drivers.

I dunno about the simulator question, have oftentimes pondered that myself, I used to use MS Flight Sim to practice circuits when I was doing my PPL, and I've had 2 hrs flying the C130J sim at RAAF Richmond, I doubt car simulators can make you a driving god, but they may have some flow on benefit. I was visiting Melb around Easter when I was on a 2 week bike tour around SA/VIC/NSW and I went to a H.A.R.T open day where they were demonstrating a bike simulator they were using for training.

I have long list of woeful stories. They are all dear and some gruesome and individual. I could easily list ten involving motor vehicles (Bike and Cars) and three more involving suicide and one where my foster brother shot and killed my other foster brother in jealous rage fuelled by drugs.

Suffice to say I have 3 sons and my plan is this:

* Spend the time developing a caring / sharing relationship built on honesty and trust,
* Each of us when the time comes will do driver training to an advanced level including avoidance and car maintenance and handling techniques,
* The car will be their own that they have worked for and built themselves over a long period of time,
* Whilst they live under my roof they live by my rules and accept the consequences of their actions as we as parents decide.

Good driving doesn’t start when they go for their learners, it start by you modelling the appropriate driving behaviours for their youngest age, by explaining how to drive safely and explaining in detail if this happens now what will happen next. Visiting accident locations and retracing the accident itself and visiting a funeral whilst they are undertaking their licence.

I strongly believe that although our school do try to do the best by our kids they don't have enough funding and time to really cut the road toll. They have the people and they best position to make a significant difference but its cheaper to install lights, reflectors and add campaigns after the fact than be preventative.

We only need to change the driving habits of one generation for successive generations to improve. Kids need locations to cut lose, do burnouts, spin out, slide and throw their car around but they are too far and few between. Instead country roads, back paddocks and car parks is where they learn what there car is and isn't capable often with devastating effect.

[ Edited on 15-9-2006 by The_Bronze. ]

DUB74L wrote:i dont reckon racing simulator games improve driver skill :o
to many ppl think they can get behind the wheel of a car and drive just as well as they do on nd4spd and GT
theres a very HUGE difference in controlling a car with a controller and the real thing and too many ppl forget this

As i said above.. it depends on the game... some are more realistic than other.. GT is realistic (well, fairly) need for speed is NOT.
I'm not saying if you can drive fast in gran turismo you can safely do it on the road.. but it does teach you how a car would react to a given situation.

on the subject of Gran Turismo 4 has anyone noticed that there is no power differnce at all between the 68 1500 karmann ghia and the split window 1100 beetle :duh

-Joel

Umm.. what are you on?
I was just playing it today.. there is a considerable difference.. the 1100 beetle has 25hp i think.. and the 1500 Karmann has 55hp.. and you can put a turbo on it! :kiss

funeral was Thursday. If you crash in a sim, you don't get to attend a funeral.

Nothing teaches you how to react to a slide but being in a slide. For crying out loud, do what we did and invest in a defensive driving course for ya kids. It's usually too late to work out what to do in a slide if ya in a life and death situation. A defensive driving course will not stop an accident but will give you a much better chance od surviving. I've got a 19yr old driving now. We imposed a non-negotiable curfew in the first few months then as the trust increased the curfew decreased. I still worry but thats just a parent thing. No2 is about to get his L's followed by No3 and then No4......Lucky my hair can't get any more grey.

this was at 7.20pm in the rain, urban.

No game teaches you how to drive. Like saying beating Tiger Woods in TW06 on the XBox turns you into a PGA tour winner. What a load of rubbish.

In my opinion 99.9% of single vehicle accidents are caused by one of 2 things. Stupidity and excessive speed, though the latter falls within the former. Actually there is a 3rd, when your expectations exceed your abilities. Once you realise your limits as a driver then you will become a better driver. Untill you do you are just as bad as the people you laugh at on the road. Your average P plater couldn't drive a greasy stick up the proverbial, though I'm sure a raft of P platers will tell me otherwise.

As an aside, I've been to more fatals than most if not all of you, so I know what I'm talking about

^^^^^ yes yes yes, so as I said before. Learn to drive properly here....

pete wood wrote:http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=55732&page=1#pid534523

$30 for adults, $15 for juniors (12-17)yo. Time to enter now. We've had 2 kids die in two weeks. Let's not be the next statistic.

[ Edited on 16-9-06 by pete wood ]

Kinda off subject, but when they start restricting l&p plate drivers to car sizes limited to 1.3ltr or something like that without mods kinda like getting your L's on a bike, this may help, when you get red P platers passing you on the freeway in mummy and daddys commondore with all the boys, doing more than 140( well thats what i was doing, on a bike) it always makes you think what the F###k. I am no expert @ driving and i think there are few that are, but i do think that driving courses should be somewhat compulsory for learner drivers and red p platers alike. Something like being tested before you can move onto the next level of your licence. Cars are alot bigger and better than when most of us got "our" car and licence.


You cant stop an "accident", sadly and often difficulty you just have to deal with the aftermarth.

Look.. i'm not going to repeat myself. If you people aren't going to read what i said properly.. suit yourselves.

Iwish4aSynchro wrote:Kinda off subject, but when they start restricting l&p plate drivers to car sizes limited to 1.3ltr or something like that without mods kinda like getting your L's on a bike, this may help, when you get red P platers passing you on the freeway in mummy and daddys commondore with all the boys, doing more than 140( well thats what i was doing, on a bike) it always makes you think what the F###k.

Bullshit mate... I'm a P plater and I can kill myself just as easily in a 900cc Daihatsu or 1200cc Kombi as in a 5.7L SS Commonwhore or an XR6. :puke

The problem does not lie in the cars, and a lot of the time it is not even entirely to do with lack of experience... altho the latter can contribute slightly. The main issue lies in the attitude of the drivers, and this doesnt just apply to P platers. :o

In many cases, drivers young and old are overconfident, deliberately reckless, or figure there will always be somebody else to palm off the blame on... the latter being a trait I've noticed in old drivers mostly... they do something dumb, somebody else gets the shits, and the person who got the shits automatically becomes th asshole of the decade!

Example 1... go into town on a thursday night when the young dickheads are smoking each other off, and let's see how many 1.5 litre Civics and 1.4 litre Excels and 1600 Datsuns are among the crowd... a damn sight more than there are Commodores! :o

Example 2... the 50 year old who pulls out in front of anybody they like and doesnt indicate on roundabouts, or they drive 10 or 20k's above the speed limit, just becasue they feel they can get away with it because of supposed experience.

Give any one of these morons a bloody Vespa and they stilll will more than likely act like dickheads and stand a good chance of killing themselves or somebody else...

anyway.. rant over....

[ Edited on 17-9-2006 by Schmoburger ]

Schmoburger wrote:

Iwish4aSynchro wrote:Kinda off subject, but when they start restricting l&p plate drivers to car sizes limited to 1.3ltr or something like that without mods kinda like getting your L's on a bike, this may help, when you get red P platers passing you on the freeway in mummy and daddys commondore with all the boys, doing more than 140( well thats what i was doing, on a bike) it always makes you think what the F###k.

Bullshit mate... I'm a P plater and I can kill myself just as easily in a 900cc Daihatsu or 1200cc Kombi as in a 5.7L SS Commonwhore or an XR6. :puke

The problem does not lie in the cars, and a lot of the time it is not even entirely to do with lack of experience... altho the latter can contribute slightly. The main issue lies in the attitude of the drivers, and this doesnt just apply to P platers. :o

In many cases, drivers young and old are overconfident, deliberately reckless, or figure there will always be somebody else to palm off the blame on... the latter being a trait I've noticed in old drivers mostly... they do something dumb, somebody else gets the shits, and the person who got the shits automatically becomes th asshole of the decade!

Example 1... go into town on a thursday night when the young dickheads are smoking each other off, and let's see how many 1.5 litre Civics and 1.4 litre Excels and 1600 Datsuns are among the crowd... a damn sight more than there are Commodores! :o

Example 2... the 50 year old who pulls out in front of anybody they like and doesnt indicate on roundabouts, or they drive 10 or 20k's above the speed limit, just becasue they feel they can get away with it because of supposed experience.

Give any one of these morons a bloody Vespa and they stilll will more than likely act like dickheads and stand a good chance of killing themselves or somebody else...

anyway.. rant over....

[ Edited on 17-9-2006 by Schmoburger ]

One day you will.

Oh and if u wish to quote someone make sure u use all the info, otherwise you may look silly.

[ Edited on 18-9-2006 by Iwish4aSynchro ]

people, the point was just to encourage parents to be aware that despite their enthusiam and sensible approaches, new drivers simply do not have as much life experiences to call upon in new, perhaps adverse, weather conditions.

If the car the new driver has is 'old', then may well lack some of the driver aids that newer cars have and will put them at risk in some situations.

Not that we can all afford to buy kids a new car, but parents need to be aware that many young people aspire to do more that perhaps they should, and we have all seen how they often value 'looks' over safety. Its very subjective, and I guess most parents in here will be concious of the risks to their kids. BUT some parents are not, they don't see it ... maybe you know someone like this, and perhaps a polite word to make them aware of the risks, it ain't gonna hurt.

Didn't want this to turn into a shit fight ... there are plenty of morons on the road who are 'experienced', just that is you combine an old car, crap weather, lack of experience - and the fact they have to negotiate morons too, then asking them not to go out would be a good idea, or offer to drive them to the party and pick them up. It's not 'cool' perhaps, but thats life. Just because you get Ps, can get beer, go to parties etc., does not make them 'grown ups'.

Personally I was allowed to buy things that went way too fast, way too young...looking back as an old fart, I am amazed that I didn't kill me or someone else, but no one could tell me, cause I was 19 and a grown up god-dammit.

Be nice, the post was just to raise the awareness...

rolled my vw inland from taree about 19yrs ago, the avatar was taken about 1hour earlier.coming around a long sweeping slight bend (doing 40kph) the rear started to swing out as i corrected(or tried to) the car was like the steering had been disconnected.i tried to avoid the high embankment (didnt want to wreck my car) and i did avoid it,only to roll it 3 or 4 times down into a creek.the ugly roll bar i didnt want to put in saved our lives.it had been raining intermittantly before and the road had been graded the day before.i was driving to the speed limit,and aware of the conditions,still i had this accident.somtimes these things happen,but i know when i get my car back on the road i will do everthing i can to understand how my car reacts in all conditions.

Helbus wrote:What ever happened to just driving sedatley and 'parking' to enjoy the serenity.

Somewhere along the line I think "parking" became "drifting"..some people think that is more fun?? I'd rather go parking😘kiss

Schmoburger wrote:The problem does not lie in the cars, and a lot of the time it is not even entirely to do with lack of experience... altho the latter can contribute slightly. The main issue lies in the attitude of the drivers, and this doesnt just apply to P platers. :o

The "attitude" of the driver and the lack of experience of the driver is a major contributor in most accidents. Limiting the power of the vehicle to inexperienced drivers WOULD help save lives. This doesn't just apply to "P" platers but to anyone who lacks the experience or maturity to drive without being overly confident. I agree...ALL drivers should be made to do a defensive driving course BEFORE they get their license..use it as part of the test if required. When I was 10 years old my old man started me driving "in case something happened" as we lived a long way from help.He did the same for my sister who was 1 year older than me. It's a shame this type of thing doesn't happen any more,but then it's illegal so that might be why!! My son is 4 years old and can start AND drive an automatic car,without touching the pedals.He knows how to use the handbrake after putting the car in neutral and can steer properly. He's been riding motorbikes by himself since he was 2 1/2. How often have you heard someone say they can't drive their car because the clutch doesn't work??? When i sat for my driving test part of the course as you were driving was that you weren't allowed to use the clutch.....times have changed....I think safe driving is under rated. Anyone lost in a vehicle accident is loss of life that didn't need to happen. Accidents don't just happen,they are caused.

Here here:thumb