Oil Pressure Issue - URGENT Q\'s to be sorted for Warwick Weekender

G'day All

Was hoping for some help with an oil pressure question, coming back from a Test and Tune night acouple of weeks ago and also the Carina Show not that long ago my oil prssure light popped on, but then as I pulled over it turned of again.

I have since hooked up an oil pressure autometer guage to check on whats going on.

Basically cruising along the pressure is about 40-50 psi - drops down as the oil gets warm. At idle the pressure drops right down 12.5-25psi.

At this stage idiot light still off - thinkning to myself sweet no dramas.

However - after going for a run today light came on. But I noticed itonly came in if I was out of gear/or clutch in taking a hard right hand bend.

Don't ask me how I actually worked this out but it did it several times when I tested it, but as soon as I straighten up and put it under throttle agian the pressure comes back up???

By the way I checked oil level and all is good!

Any thoughts on whats causing this???

Is it a huge issue???

Brad

[ Edited on 26-9-2006 by blup58 ]

The pressures sound OK. The idiot light only comes on at very low pressure, like 3-5PSI.

Idiot light coming on going around corners is reasonably common as the oil is pushed away from the pick up tube. I find it only happens if the oil level is low, or I take a corner very hard.

Not sure if it is serious problem, but I don't think so.

I say you have to not take corners out of gear and/or off throttle and all will be sweet 🙂

Just kidding, hopefully someone can give you some more useful feedback than I can offer! 😵

Thanks guys - will keep post up for a bit see if anyone has had additional experiences.

The pressure you are showing is good, the windage, (starvation when cornering) leads to scuffing on the bearings, usually big end as they throw the oil out fast. That second or so is a few hundred spins, the load compressed the oil film that is not being renewed and scuffffff ( expensive)

Solutions? Those sump pickups like pobjoys, deep sumps and windage trays ( antisurge plates for the sump)

Sometimes a thinner oil is actually better as it returns to the sump quicker, as is a normal oil pump rather than a mega flow one that pushes all the extra out of the pressure relief valve.

How hard are you cornering?

My first choice would be an extension to the pickup into one of pobjoys stumpy sump plates.

Hope this helps, try not to get the red light on as this is really low pressure.

regards to Mrs and little Blup too,

kkk

Hi Brad,
It is definitely something that deserves further investigation.
It may just be the switch, but try a new one and keep looking.

Do an oil change.

Get a new filter, and replace the old one. Cut open the old one to have a look inside for metal debris .

Also check the oil for particals on the sump plate.

I am fairly sure you have a berg deep sump on that engine?
If so , when you drop out your oil, make sure that the extensuion is still on the oil pick-up tube.

If everything is as it should be you are safe, but if not, dont risk it.
I would love to see you run at warwick, but it would be a waste to damage your engine,
if you are not sure.

If in doubt, have some one check those things for you.

G'day Guys

Thanks for the info to date.......now have additional questions.

OK - tonight I dropped the oil as suggested.

Results - oil straight out of sump looked very clean, no debri, no metallic reflections no metal chunks .....so far so good.

Oil out of filter did have a few flecks not sure if metal or just a bit of dirt etc - figured this is probably normal considering its a filter.

Now to check the pick up tube - looked into my deep sump - length looks sweet sits fairly low - no probs there.

Thought better check it for some movement - lots of movement - basically felt like nothing was holding it down.

I removed the deep sump to see if I could get a better view.

Basically I can move the tube from one extreme to the next (governed by the dimensions of the little sump plate) Refer photos below.

There appears as though there should be a tab potentially to hold the tube and dome thingy in place but it looks as though it has cracked and is now free to move around.

So my questions are as follows (please forgive ignorance):

1. Is this normal????
2. How can I fix it???
3. Could this be whats causing my oil pressure problem as noted above.

Photos are in this order:
1. Depth of pick up tube;
2. Facing Nth/Sth towards front of car showing how far it can move to right;
3.Facing Nth/Sth towards front of car showing how far it can move to left;
4. Piccy of tab that has broken (I think).

Urgent response would be great - Warwick Weekend pending on it!!!!

Cheers

Brad
I can basicaly move the pick up tube to all

2

[ Edited on 26-9-2006 by blup58 ]

3

4

Not sure if any of this helps, but a bit of reading:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=184784&highlight=pick+tube (basically suggests to check the oil pressure relief plunger to ensure it is not stuck, also one person suggest these possibilities :"I ususally take a flickering oil light on a type I as a sign that the front main bearing saddle is beginning to oval, this was my area of pressure loss when I disassembled my case. Other causes can include main bearing tolerances opening up, rod bearing side clearances opening up")

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=195765&highlight=pick+tube
The crux of the one response is that if the tube has disconnected from the hole totally it may be impossible to reconnect, however although yours has a lot of movement sideways, it may mean that it still in its hole (hopefully will be able to "peen"/push it back in firmly, then figure out how to fix that tab. This could explain why your oil was bubbly that time (has that stopped by the way - may have just been that breather pipe disconnected as we found).

I'll try and get some more info....

This one is quite relevant (pickup tube tab broken), tube loose...
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=99522&highlight=pickup+tube
Talks about accessing the "other end" of the tube by taking a plug out of the case so the pickup tube could be "spread" via dynabolt to firm up the fit in the case. He then made a L-bracket to keep the "umbrella" in position. Couple of pics to explain:

Here is where he removed the case plug to access the pickup tube (just visible in the galley)


Here is the bracket he made:


Here is the dynabolt used to "spread" the tube to tighten it up (1/2in wide, 4 in long recommended):

Its sucking air where it enters the case...................strip down to fix.😢

This is particularly relevant (loose pickup tube as you describe):
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=73054&highlight=pickup+tube

Again the discussion of removing the plug to access the end of the pickup tube to "spread it"....however the issue of reinstalling the plug (suggests you need to tap it and then replug with a threaded plug).

So where does it leave you/us for warwick?

Well, from my reading and thinking (although that is limited at this time of night)....the possible cause of the oil light going on at low revs (idle) when cornering could be the fact the pickup tube is rotating (as you picture) thus potentially starving the bearings of oil. Also if the pickup tube is not fully immersed due to its rotation out of the oil, it may be delivering foamy oil to bearings (again not good).

So what do we do?

IF we had more time, we could remove the aforementioned plug, use a dynabolt to spread the tube for a tighter fit, make the umbrella bracket, retap the galley for a new threaded plug (aircooled.net - not sure where else) - problem solved (hopefully).

HOWEVER, with only two nights (After tonight) until we leave for warwick we may have to do a temporary fix. My suggestion is for us to attempt to push the pickup tube in as far as we can (although probably won't go in any further as it may have developed a ridge where it fits into the case). We then make the umbrella L-bracket to stop it moving around so we can assure it stays immersed in the deep sump even when cornering. After test run, if oil light doesn't come on, then sweet for warwick.....then we do the full fix after the meet when time permits. With this temporary fix, there is of course a chance of slight air leak where the tube enters the case (in that galley) which has the chance of delivery slightly foamy oil to bearings. I would hope this would not be the case but of course it is possible until we can spread the tube and/or apply loctite as recommended on those thread above.

In my opinion (others please feel free to shoot me down as this is new to me), when I come up tomorrow night we try and push the tube

In saying all that it is your engine and your dollars which will go towards fixing it if necessary so totally your call.

IF you decide to do the temporary fix as noted above (without doing a full engine teardown), and something does go wrong....I am happy to give you use of my type IV for the ghia for as long as you need (after warwick) as I won't need it for quite a while. This of course doesn't help the fact you'd have to shell out the cash for a full teardown.

It would be a real shame to not have the ghia run, but I guess it is only one weekend - you'd be disappointed to miss it, but you/your wife may be happy you don't have to do a full rebuild (due to its hefty cost) for the sake of missing it.

Wish I could tell you what to do but it's your call Brad.

Cheers
Al
🥲

I can get some of those L brackets for you, the jet engines i work on have them to hold rigid and flexi lines and ignition cables, i got a few here. I'm on a holiday so i can drop them over to brads house if you need them.


[ Edited on 26-9-2006 by 66deluxe ]

You should be able to make one up, or refit that aluminium plug as long as it is sealed correctly.
It only has to seal suction, not pressure. So a tight fitted disc of 3mm alum could be made, and peened in.

You will have to make that tube tight in the case hole, but slide the tube forward,
and use sealant before pushing it back, and expanding the tube with the dyna bolt.

I use some "brake Kleen" before applying the sealant. Curil, permatex,
or loctie are all OK(not silicone unless you remove ALL excess that squeezes out),
and this is just to improve the seal after expanding the tube with the dyna bolt.

Definitely put a brace back on the bell, even if you have to tack it with a small weld.

All this assumes the engine has not suffered from any damage up til now.

If in doubt, let it go. That engine is good equipment and can't be replaced easily.

I want to see you at Warwick, but not at risk of wasting you engine.

Hey,

I agree with Das' suggested fix however the chance of failure will lead to expensive sounds and longer runs of the red light.....then nights on the couch!

I would try the way that Das mentions myself.

When you want to fix it properly do split the cases, then you can check all your bearings etc.

Ive an case stand if you need.

kkk

Thanks guys for all the input - Al and I will investigate further tonight and make a decision on what to do pending what we find, we may try to fix the problem pending outcomes and finding something else suss will determin weather I run at warwick or not.

I guess its inevitable that we will need to split case but at the moment if thats all thats wrong then sweet but if I cause more damage then $$$ ouch.