I have been looking for some thing different to get the drive out of my budget Bug build up .
This a early 911 sporta matic trans axel ( semi auto )
The gear box is manual shift , you dont have a foot clutch as you move the shifter the valve in the gear box triggers the vacuum actuator to pull the clutch in .By the you have shifted into the next gear
What I am doing :
I am in the throws of reading about the internals of the gear box & the ratios .Finding Infomation regarding this is not that easy to date .I will work the ratios out when I pull the gear box down .
The fluid for the gear box is the same for the motor ( shares the oil pressure ) via a port on the side of the trans .
The gear box has a dry clutch as well , then a wet converter .
My idea tis to make the gear box a full manual , buy modifing the internals & fitting a LSD diff from a WRX R160 rear diff .
Here is the gear box on a early motor
rubyred ·
how do you plan on fitting a wrx lsd?
mackaymanx ·
Ok then it's a glorified semi-auto😂😂😂 . But seriously if you change to a LSD you will be running it in engine oil, is it going to survive that.
gull ·
The WRX diff ( center ) is just a LSD drive section , remove the crown wheel , machine a adapter to take the porsche crown wheel , machine some adapters so the bearing carriers fit back up , machine some drive flange out put shaftsfor it are your away , nothing to hard for me
Seagull
gull ·
I have purchased a oil pump from a plane reduction gear box , runs off the belt drive from the WRX motor
so yes it will be fine
Baja Wes ·
seagull wrote:My idea tis to make the gear box a full manual ,
This may just be a silly idea, but why don't you just start with a full manual in the first place???
what happened neil..from all out to budget build!!!
i forsee problems.
MISS VDUB ·
It is all out build Anthony, he can just manage it on a budget! 👍
Ash x
1916 ·
fair enough, no arguments here. i just thought by budget build he would be cutting some corners in order to save coin.
which is all good but down the track may cause dilemmas.
just gotta wonder why these traans are so cheap?
OwenMM ·
1916 wrote:just gotta wonder why these traans are so cheap?
maybe because they're crap? No one wants sporto 911's so they all get wrecked for body parts etc.
Never did get to drive one myself and I worked at a porsche specialist for a year. I think i saw one all year and that was coming in for a pre purchase from dodgy car yard, It wasnt even drivable due to issues with the sporto.
They've mostly been converted or scrapped.
On a similar note apparently al lot of the BMW M3 SMG's got conversions back to manual as well.
Now if you want a nice box the late 993's auto was very impressive to drive, but this was largely due to the electronics and the 7 (i think) shifting modes. As you pushed it harder the shift points move up, the shift pressures increase etc. But for day to day driving it was a nice soft auto. The top shift mode was virtually impossible to get into except in a race track!
seagull ·
Yes there are a realy crap box & there thrown away all the time
slugish gear change , hard to find the gears , slow off the mark
Lucky for me , I found it at scrap value
Rear out put now striped ,fly wheel in the CNC , gear set getting cracked tested & lsd worked out
torsion bars cut out , rear fire wall cut away ,closed deck STI on the ground ready to go
👍
ricola ·
If they are so crap then why are you using one? Surely not just because they are cheap..
Do you have pics of the dragon's work in progress?
Rich
pete wood ·
I have a mate who used to own a 911 sporto. One of his mates said, "oh they're crap". "Right", said my mate, "I'll show you how crap it is". Took the guy out for a spin in the local industrial area. Pulled into a culdesac, revved it up to 6k and dump it, drove the car sideways round every corner with the tyres smoking. When he mate got his breath back he managed to say something along the lines of, "ok, I was wrong". It's not about the gearbox, it's about the driver. 😉
Like semi auto beetles, they are fine once you get used to them.
seagull ·
HI Rich , I get some photos over the next few days .
fabing the new fire wall & doing the torsion bar mods now for mounting the gear box.
I am using the sporto matic based on , cost ,what it came out of & it looks like I can beat up on it & it will not blow up .
Time will tell
seagull
ricola ·
I'll be very interested to see how you get on, whatever the reasons 🙂
Rich
seagull ·
I have worked out that I can make the gear box a full manual with mods to the bell housing .I will be removing the vacuum clutch set up fully & fitting a quality pull cylinder to the clutch fork .
I have two ways I can do this
1) get the stock clutch tested to find out the claping force .Then machine a plain fly wheel the same weight as the WRX fly wheel .I will have to part off the ring gear from a 200mm vw fly wheel & fit it to the custom fly wheel . In the center there will be a female spline to locate the gear box drive shaft , this is 20mm od .
I found out my adapter plate to vw / Subaru is the same
2) just leve it as is & see how it goes
OwenMM ·
Is there no way a subaru box can have the ring and pinion flipped so that it can be used in a rear engine setting? That would do away with the adaptor and then you would have a wider choice of boxes with better and cheaper spares avail? Also the subaru drag crowd have good luck with the subaru autos I believe?
Just a thought, but im sure someone has tried already!
either way how about some pics?:thumb
seagull ·
I have not fliped the ring & pinion .I have removed it & used the Center LSD .
Subaru autos cost up to 6K to build , they snap the main shaft as there is oil holes in them .They do last longer that the manual boxes
Up date #
I have done away with the oem clutch & now going to make the main shaft come right through to the converter side of the box .I found the spline is the same as a vw clutch , so the Kep 2100 lbs 200mm unt is on the converter side now .
I just need to machine & female spline to couple the cut down 2ltr kombi shaft ,fit the clutch fork to the converter side & if I am correct the Seagull subaru to vw fly wheel will line up spot on
full manual box :bounce
Doug Sweetman ·
Guys,
All those people who doubt........ you forget that Gull is a VW auto gearbox wizzkid...... have a search about the forum and see where he has posted all the bits and pieces you can do to the T3 and kombi autos to make them a good reliable, tough box option.
Would be good to see some piccies Neil - what do the guts of the box look like ? are they built bigger / stronger than the vw stuff or what ?
Cheers
kevo ·
hey neil,
how much would it cost for you to build me a reasonably strong 2L auto with a strong 1st for burnouts
Does the flywheel need to change also?
you know my bus right?
cheers
Desert Moose ·
seagull wrote:I just need to machine & female spline to couple the cut down 2ltr kombi shaft ,fit the clutch fork to the converter side & if I am correct the Seagull subaru to vw fly wheel will line up spot on
full manual box :bounce
Why don't you use a slave like an albins or ford mondeo. they sit on the input shaft and run the lines out the top of the bellhousing. no need for clutch folks and would make it much easier and cheaper......
seagull ·
Thanks Chris .I droped in to see Brian to day & got some ideas just chating to him .
I then whent to my mates wrecking yard , only to find the mondeo on the bottom of the stack !
bummer have to pull the car body out with some thing stronger than my Jeep .
Thanks for the Tip , I think it will work .
seagull ·
Doug .Auto boxes are over looked by most , they are expencive to build .But the clutch packs can be played with as you know .
At this point the LSD center ( subaru ) is going in my 2ltr kombi box .
I am trying to rush through some gear for the guys to get others going .I can then get back to my own work .
I did test the stock sporto matic clutch & found it had 17.5mpa on the diaphragm , the face is only 35mm wide
seagull ·
may be a bit of a blow as selecting gears it looks like its a 3 speed box
GeorgeL ·
Dang, I never knew that Porsche had their own version of the Automatic Stick Shift. Did the VW Autostick make it to Australia? Piece of junk that.
Euro_67 ·
Yes the vw semi auto was sold here. I had one in a 1500 beetle, believe it or not it was actually fun. Great for traffic and really effortless to drive.
seagull ·
I love junk 🙂
humpty ·
I have driven the Stick shift bugs and the Auto TIII's....They are all fantastic to drive, if a little sluggish..... these Sporto's are tough internally from what I have read and i know they are nice to drive in the 911... But just like most old school auto's they are quite lethargic in stock form.... Like most things, they can be improved.... I know of a few auto drag dubs that are awesome performers.... A boosted engine will stay on boost the hole time.... And thats gotta be a good thing for excelleration right? And possibly the reason nobody has done this before is because nobody though about it, because everybody said it couldn't be done.... Sounds strangely familiar to me.... I remember when my brother and I first thought about fitting a Turbo Subi donk into a Dub (over 10 years ago!), everybody said it couldn't be done.... Guess my brother proved everyone wrong huh?
Go to it Neil.... I've been looking for a Sporto, still no luck....😢
seagull ·
I will have this in the bug on sunday Simon , come over for a beer .
humpty ·
That could happen... I have the little'un with me.... Will call as usual....
seagull ·
Thats cool the kids have the toys here to play with...
we have the bug !
seagull ·
up date , its a bit slow in here to night
I have stripped a 1600 kombi box down & use the out put shaft & female couplink
machined the gears off the sprocket to make it look factory .I am getting the shaft splines done with a mate as he is set up do this at his work .This will then give me a out put shaft rather that a vacuum clutch & a converter set up .
I got the run down from Chris on the correct hydraulic push type cylinder to use & have purchased that .I am making a ally boss the able the unit to bolt in to the casing .Need to make up some hydraulic lines for it as well.
I have also had to move the ring gear down the other end of the gear box , so I machined a big bit of pipe down to able me to attach the ring gear I cut off the converter to .I will also drill some holes in the spool peice to get some weight out , this will all so able air to flow in & clutch dust out .This will be fitted to my Seagull fly wheel I made .
any way back to the shed for me , The Dragons calling
Euro_67 ·
sounds like lots of work, any photos ?
humpty ·
It will be interested to see how the engine bearings handle the added load of the flywheel extension..... By adding a fulcrum length to the end of the crankshaft, you may be adding extra load to the main bearing. I realise the total weight wont be much different than a normal FW/clutch arrangement, but the extended length of the set-up may effect bearing life..... We shall see..... Bloody interesting idea this....
[ Edited on 13-11-2006 by humpty ]
gull ·
thats why they fitted a mid suport to the bell housing with an oil feed to the converter
This will be the same just with a bearing .
The fly wheel is hard up at the motor , its only the light weight ring gear at the othetr end , with holes in the cyl & mods by me the total weight will be lighter than a stock 200mm fly wheel .
gull ·
There is not really a lot of work to do this mod , you just need one of my Subaru fly wheel & adapter plates , Simon has this .Mods to the gear box was just a bit of open thinking .
:thumb
finding the gear box was hard work
koolkarmakombi ·
put some pics up mate, it will save you 1000's of words to my questions. Nice work!
humpty ·
I haven't found anymore yet either.... Well not for a good price anyway....
gull ·
photos soon then
seagull ·
Tonight after Humpty just about ate all the food in my house we worked over the drive axels & other bits we need to order for the bug to run in the 10s with out snapping drive shafts & scraping the sump on the ground when it squats on each gear change .
at this point I have not welded the gear box mounts in place untill the drive shafts & axles turn up .I can them fit them & get stuck into fase two .
I am having a brake from the bug as my new lets going racing toy has arrived .
seagull ·
up date
( due to other custom rides I have put the dragon on the back burner + I needed drive shafts to locate the gear box )
these are coming so making some head way
28 spline drive shafts wil 911cv,s are coming from the usa
after market torsion bars coming
I got hold of a set of duplex headers made in the usa for the subaru motor I am running .This will remove over 8 kgs from the rear of the bug , it will lose the boxer sound , but I dont care , the car need to be light .
I also got hold of an ecu with speed cut removed it also has a performance chip inside &
some jap cold air intake system that removes the intake silencer .
Have the 4 wheel disk brakes now , running RX7 4 pots on the front , rears are V force custom ( vented )
fire wall is cut in with new section half in + I have gutted the inside of the car .
collected some body pannels due to some rust issues with the ones I had .
simon have some of those 4 stud disks & calipers here for you ( come & get them as they are going in the bin )
W come & get your bits ( every ones asking about the headers I have for you )
seagull ·
Simon ,vlsd is back on 🙂 I need to get some shafts machined , but I can make it work
humpty ·
seagull wrote:Simon ,vlsd is back on 🙂 I need to get some shafts machined , but I can make it work
Cool.... Will call on Sunday..... Make sure the beer's cold!
seagull ·
I ran out of beer & now only have rum !
humpty ·
seagull wrote:I ran out of beer & now only have rum !
Dang..... yo ho, ho and a bottle of rum...... Aaahhhrrrrrr!
seagull ·
its been in the shed for around 7 years & it was in the sun .It was all right & there is nothing wrong with me :duh
Grey 57 ·
Seagull, how much longer is the sporto box compard to a IRS VW box???
Been thinking about a replacement box in my 911 powered T34. I like the sporto. Fun to drive.
Where are you running the oil pump?? On a 911 Sporto the engine and sporto share an oil pump mounted on the end of one of the cams.
gull ·
I run the tape over it tonight .
looking back I have made this box into a full auto , dont tell any one
humpty ·
Axles and torsion bars are here Neil.... Im picking them up on Monday night....
seagull ·
gull wrote:I run the tape over it tonight .
looking back I have made this box into a full manual , dont tell any one
seagull ·
Thats should say full manual , I think I was pissed that night !
good nes mate , can make a start on some more mods
seagull ·
well guys the Dragon is no more a project for me .The gear box will be sold off very soon , just about all my collection of vw gear is sold or in the bin .
I have one subaru > vw fly wheel left from my kombi gear box set up for sale
cheers to all & good by
Neil
Seagull
humpty ·
🙁🙁🙁🙁
seagull ·
The gearbox is now for sale with adapter plate & fly wheel for subaru, new drive axels & I even throw in some cvs
newoldmanx ·
seagull wrote:well guys the Dragon is no more a project for me .The gear box will be sold off very soon , just about all my collection of vw gear is sold or in the bin .
I have one subaru > vw fly wheel left from my kombi gear box set up for sale
cheers to all & good by
Neil
Seagull
:jesus?????????????? what happened i really enjoy reading your post mate good luck for the future anyways
seagull ·
good by every one
Baja Wes ·
we all knew you'd never actually finish any of your projects :P
So what's the story Neil? What's going on?
humpty ·
Baja Wes wrote:we all knew you'd never actually finish any of your projects :P
So what's the story Neil? What's going on?
Settle....
He's done the 180SX (GTR Brakes n rearend, turbo donk with all the good gear, etc....) and nearly finished the Impreza street/trackcar (with all the good gear too!), but the bug had to go as family commitments must take precedence....
Im sure you can understand that....
seagull ·
all for the boy mate , son has some mental issues & I need to deal with that & thats takes time .The dragon had to go so I could spend more time with the lad
Lots / heaps of other rides have been done , the projects above I can ad to but I keep it low .