Here is the wiring loom now that all the insulation tape has been removed
Here are some pics of some of the sensors. Not exactly sure which is which, so I will need to get a workshop manual. Kalmaker suggest that should be one of the first things to get.
56astro ·
The HP fuel pump off the Camira looks exactly the same as the one I have off a VL Commodore.
The Commodore one looks like it has the reg straight after it though. Not sure what that's about.
tassupervee ·
Those sensores are water temp, air temp, an EGO sensor and I cant se thru the fingers bit prolly another temp sensor.
The temp sensor are a generic temp sensor used on just about every EFI car apart from Mazdas.
They are NOT polarity sensitive.
The ego can be thrown away. They have a finite life, perhaps 100.000 K's and response becomes sluggish and unpredicdable.
L8tr
E
56astro ·
Thanks TSV
So that means the water temp sensor will be replaced with an CHT ??
The air temp sensor goes in the inlet manifold, probably before the TB ??
VWCOOL ·
Yep, looks just like mine. Show me how to do it!
EDIT
I think "Ratty"'s thread has good info on the 'conversion' of coolant temp to CHT
[ Edited on 25-10-2006 by VWCOOL ]
ratty 63 ·
Ooooh goody! Another conversion.
Wiring loom is simple once you have spent some time studying the wiring diagrams and you know which sensor goes with which plug. GM did some strange things with their wiring... I'm still trying to work out why they bothered to connect the fuel pump via the oil pressure switch!? :duh
I went to the local (Southport) public Library and photocopied the wiring diagram from a Gregory's manual. It was a great help. Copy the engine management chapter too - it's useful for checking sensors.
I agree with TSV in regards to the identification of the sensors. Use a 3 or 4 wire heated EGO as the mounting location will probably be too far down the exhaust for a single wire (non-heated) EGO to remain hot enough to be accurate at all times.
In the Camira and the Commodore the Manifold Air Temp (MAT) sensor is mounted very close to the intake ports on the head (ie: after the TB). Some people have reported problems with heat soak with the sensor in this location, which causes the sensor to report higher than actual temps. Most people recommend mounting this sensor further away from the engine, but still after the TB. I mounted this sensor in my brothers conversion in the plenum chamber (where the factory cold start injector normally fits). In this location its 'miles' away from the heat given off by the head, but still in the air that is 'next-in-line' to be drawn into the engine.
For a CHT sensor I used a 'Temp Sender II' from a factory EFI system (type III or IV). It screws into the top of the cylinder head, beside the intake port - check to see if either of your heads has the threaded hole for this sensor as some don't. The Temp Sender II is fairly inexpensive compared to other alternatives. I ended up having to use a resistor in line with the temp sensor to bring the higher temp readings down to what the ECU considers normal - despite what others will try to tell you, doing this has no effect on the cold start. I can supply all the info and research on this subject if you would like to see it.
Looks to me like the loom came out of an auto Camira - you will have to spend some time trying to make sense of/removing the torque converter lock-up wiring ... unless you are planning on fitting an auto too?
I have a few files that cover the Camira wiring loom if you would like them. I could even scan the relevant pages of the wiring diagram that I used... just let me know.
Please keep us up to date... I'm looking forward to this one!
R 🙂
[ Edited on 1-11-2006 by ratty 63 ]
ratty 63 ·
I just realised what the temp sender on the left is in the last photo - its the temp sender for the dash gauge. It's not connected to the EFI system so not of any use here...
R 🙂
VWCOOL ·
Ratty, Astro, the Holdens/Delco use the oil pressure switch as a 'back-up' for the EFI fuel pump. It is normally signalled from the PCM. I don't think it's a 'crash situation' fuel pump cut-off, but it may be...
56astro ·
Thanks Rossco
I think I need to invest in a Gregory's manual :thumb
I am in the throws of decidingwhich manifolds to use. Both are from CB Performance, either the factory-type end castings with the injector bosses in them (neat and tidy, but not an ideal design as far as inlet system volume is concerned); or the IDF-style manifolds with the injector bosses on the inboard side (injector position not as good but able to design a better inlet system with individual runners).
Ragtop (I think) used the factory-style end castings, so I would like to hear more about his experiences if it's back on the road.
dangerous ·
Use the individual runner, even if you have to weld some bosses onto some good manifolds.
Bergs may also have some better quality manifolds that wont restrict your engine,
and are a shorter profile to fi in your engine bay.
CB make a runner that has a straighter shot, but I am unsure wether it has nozzle bosses.
Bugpack make a real nice tall IDF manifold too.
lunar_c ·
Nice project! Keep us posted.
tayloredvw ·
was their any particular reason why you got this out of a camira?
VWCOOL ·
Yep: the dissy fits the VW with minor maching (the drive tang is the same) and Kalmaker software (as used by Holden Commodore high-performance tuners) allows it to be tuned to suit the VW
56astro ·
While I'm in the process of designing the inlet system and having it made, I am hoping to complete the fuel system. I am planning on having a small surge pot under the rear near the gearbox. What low-pressure fuel pump should I get? Some people have posted opinions here, some are noisy, some are $$$y. Which one should I get?
ratty 63 ·
I picked up a small rotary style low pressure pump from a swap in Toowoomba - it is very quiet.
I have heard that these pumps are a little more expensive than your Carter pumps, but much quieter. My Brothers conversion used a Carter pump - it is noticable when the car is at idle, but once the revs are up you can't hear it.
Does anyone know what kind of pressure a single point injection system runs? Perhaps a pump from the 1.6 Pulsar or 1.8 Camira (JD) may be a better alternative for second hand pumps....
R 🙂
tassupervee ·
Depends on the system but in the vicinity of 35 to 40psi. base (zero vacuum) pressure.
L8tr
E
56astro ·
Update .....
I think that rather than buy a surge tank and try and find somewhere to place it I would get the fuel tank modified.
I have taped a plastic container over the outlet and placed the tank back in the car to see if the tank extension would foul on anything. It didn't so I will have the tank modified.
While I was at it I thought I'd try and sort out where the HP fuel pump would go.
Right here on the shelf under the fuel tank. Hole and gromet in the side of the tunnel. Replace the old line with new stuff but in the same location and it will be the return line, back into the fuel tank extension.
(I won't be using that aluminium strap as the bracket either!)
56astro ·
An update
After doing a bit more research I have discovered that:
1. if I use the Delco/Kalmaker pakage I still have to retain a distributor. I want to get rid of the dizzy all together, so that plan won't work.
2. The final cost of the Delco/Kalmaker package is comparable with aftermarket systems.
So I have narrowed it ECU choice down to 2 at this stage:
Both of these systems will fire the twin ignition off the crank only, with wasted spark. Therefore doing away with the need for a dizzy (and cam angle sensor).
I have also found a local dyno shop that sells EMS, and has used Link with good results.
I am waiting on some late model FI beetle end castings from OS. When they arrive I can have the intake system finalised.
koolkarmakombi ·
Are they mexi fi?
56astro ·
Yep. They have a better volume for EFI than the CB "modified" end castings. Also Dangerous Dave suggested the CB ones could be restrictive.
Remember, this is going onto a daily driver (not a racer) with a designed red-line of 5500. That being said, the end of the runners (injector end) will probably still need a tidy up.
koolkarmakombi ·
I am so watching this thread!
I have a dead camira up the road that I am going to lift my carton of beer offer on 😂
I have the t1 engine, my workbench is built and ready for paint and hardwood top.
What $$ did you end up paying for the mexi manifolds etc in freight? I have been looking for them
from a mexi wrecker but communication has lapsed...
Planning bigger barrels, fi, air con and alternator..
kkk
56astro ·
$249 US - landed
Turbo54 ·
Astro, make sure you place a strainer in between the tank and the pump. This is not a filter as they are too restrictive to place there. Make sure it is a strainer. Then a filter after the pump. The pumps dont actually suck any fuel and need to be gravity fed. It is a misconception that they suck fuel. T54 😉
13BVW ·
havn't heard too many good stories about EMS system a lot of tuners don't want to touch them as they find them difficult to tune properly i havent too much about the link system but do know its very popular in NZ and ther is quite a few guys over here starting to use them
56astro ·
Thanks guys.
I am about to get in and finish the fuel system in quick-time, now that I have found a local tuner.
dangerous ·
56astro wrote:Also Dangerous Dave suggested the CB ones could be restrictive.
I may not have made myself clear,
I was refering to the restriction of ANY "end casting" and single butterfly,
flowing less air than a dual carb manifold.
I have no experience with the CB end castings, but know that a centre mounted single butterfly will make less power
than two separate throttle bodies on IDF or IDA style manifolds.
(on a turbo application, this may not be the case)
But as you said it is your daily driver, so this loss of power will not concern you.
56astro ·
Thanks Dave.
I have looked into the CFM capacity of the Camira TB, and it flows more air than the 1915 can consume at 5500.
76bug ·
hello 56astro
im currently setting up efi on my bug i have bought a michrotech lt10s and using it in conjuction with a mazda 13turbo CAS.
the shaft on the CAS is being machined down as we speak to suit the type 1 engine, the efi will be running sequetialy
56astro ·
Nice one 76bug.
Got any more details.
76bug ·
the induction is a quad throttle body arragement using zx12r T/B's sitting on modified idf manifolds
cant wait to get it running:P
56astro ·
Did some more work on the conversion today.
Fitted the HP fuel pump. I kept the rubber collar, added some extra foam, and supported the bracket bolts with some garden hose.
Here are the HP pump and pulse dampener, and new bracket.
Here it is in its new home.
I also mocked up a possible intake system. The volume of the plenum is OK, but the runner volume may be a tad out.
I will take the "model" to the fabricator's workshop (where the engine is ATM) to check for fitment.
nice website, btw, which intake manifolds did you end up using, couldn't quite make it out.
56astro ·
This one, on the left.
[ Edited on 23-1-2007 by 56astro ]
[ Edited on 23-1-2007 by 56astro ]
pete wood ·
cool. how difficult is it to get a pair of them?
MickH ·
Looking good!! I ran a LINK ECU on my 1916.Was dead easy to tune with the hand held and installment was a breeze.The final dyno adjustment was minimal.The guy in Townsville that sells them also sells many other brands,but uses the LINk on his Fink race car...sitting out in the dust and rain and it hasn't failed....so they must be OK. How lomg until this one is up and running????
56astro ·
Pete,
Not difficult at all. There are 2 suppliers from Mexico. One is far cheaper than the other. Under $1000 so no duty or GST. UPS is the big killer.
Mick,
I also like the link. There appears to be a lot of 2nd hand EMS units on ebay, so I'm assuming they are being installed, not performing all that well, and then being replaced.
Link seem to have a really good reputation for being robust.
tassupervee ·
There is a lot of unfair press about EMS ecu's.
Ive found that very few tuners are comfortable with the EMS tuning sequence which is entirely different to, say a Microtech where you just choose from one of the load parameters ( say "x" psi boost or 15"Hg Vac.) and tweak the settings whilst strapping the engine at 3 to 4000 rpm.
Then finer trimming is done with the wide open throttle and cruise trimmers
The EMS utillises 3 main load areas, -50, zero and +50 KPA that are further divided at 500 rpm "load points"
The ECU interpolates between the 3 load areas and predicts a fuel curve between them for a particular RPM range.
Ignition is adjusted in the same manner.
So, in order to tune, each of the three parameters is adjusted over the entire rpm range (500rpm increments) and then any bumps and dips in the mixture range is trimmed using fuel "curve modifier" trimmers which are kinda like main microtech tuning points. Allows an alteration to mixtures at a particular manifold pressure/vac but over the entire RPM range
It does take some time to get your head around and if used to the "other" tuning interface, it can be very confusing but is actually surprisingly easy to use after some practise.
Imported from South Africa. Good support, a forum, standard maps for various VW's. supports O2 sensors and MAP or TPS, comes with harness and senors are available at reasonable cost
AND it works
Ken
tassupervee ·
Ive heard some nice reports about GoTech ECU's and are evidently very well priced.
L8tr
E
Judsons4eva ·
yes less than $500
56astro ·
There isn't much info on their site about the ignition set-up. That's where I seem to be having the most problems. Even with Haltech E6X I would have been required to run 2 dual ch ignition modules.
Some of the other lesser known units cope with twin ignition far easier.
76bug ·
the michrotech x4ignition modual is $150 this is i have for my car, if u give them a call they will be able to tell wether it can handle firing the twin plugs. thats if u wanted to use a microtech
Judsons4eva ·
On Gotech you can run either with their on-board ign module or an external module. You can also run multiple coils but that complicates the trigger wheel set up. Download the manual on the site it give you the detail. www.gotech.co.za
56astro ·
👎
I tried to open 2 of the .pdf files (install manual and twin spark install) and both had problems. 😬
KruizinKombi ·
Steve, I beleive you need to get yourself an ECU from a Lada Niva; still the AC Delco as used on Holdens, but suitable for crank-fired coilpacks. 🥷
VWCOOL ·
KruizinKombi wrote:Steve, I beleive you need to get yourself an ECU from a Lada Niva; still the AC Delco as used on Holdens, but suitable for crank-fired coilpacks. 🥷
The 'upright tail light' Ladas used a Haltech
Won't the Delco ECU (FamilyII-powered Pulsar/Camira) crank-fire, like V6 Commodore?
[ Edited on 1-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Judsons4eva ·
Re Downoading Gotech manuals - I had the same problem. Best to right click on adobe link and "save target as" You can open the downloaded file. If you have trouble I'll email the to you.
Ken
56astro ·
VWCOOL wrote:
KruizinKombi wrote:Steve, I beleive you need to get yourself an ECU from a Lada Niva; still the AC Delco as used on Holdens, but suitable for crank-fired coilpacks. 🥷
The 'upright tail light' Ladas used a Haltech
Won't the Delco ECU (FamilyII-powered Pulsar/Camira) crank-fire, like V6 Commodore?
[ Edited on 1-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]
Twin Ignition
Even an 8 cylinder wasted spark set-up won't be a simple swap to a 4 cyl twin ignition system. So when you factor in the $1100 Kalmaker software, the aftermarket units are even more attractive.
Unless I'm missing something (along with the Tech gurus @ Haltech!)
VWCOOL ·
ah yes I forgot you were twin plugged
56astro ·
Got a package from Mexico yesterday.
I got the left and right fuel rails as well as the end castings.
New stand as well.
Note the rebate for the twin runners.
29mm ID.
30mm ID. You might just be able to make out the injectors.
KruizinKombi wrote:Steve, I beleive you need to get yourself an ECU from a Lada Niva; still the AC Delco as used on Holdens, but suitable for crank-fired coilpacks. 🥷
The 'upright tail light' Ladas used a Haltech
Won't the Delco ECU (FamilyII-powered Pulsar/Camira) crank-fire, like V6 Commodore?
FYI: The Delco ECU only controls the timing of the spark, not the way in which it is distributed. There is a control board on the bottom of the coil pack mounting plate that ensures that the correct coil fires when it is required to do so, therefore you can use an ECU out of any Delco fitted vehicle to run any number of cylinders - you just have to fit the correct dissy or coil pack... This is why I have set up my engine with a Camira Dissy to begin with, and once everything is up and running I will change it over to a 4 cyl coil pack and use the space wher e the dissy was to mount the A/C compressor....
R 🙂
56astro ·
ratty 63 wrote:....... and use the space wher e the dissy was to mount the A/C compressor....
R 🙂
COOL
:thumb
VWCOOL ·
hey Astro, check for body/injector clearance before you try install the engine. The body on my EFI Beetle is different to my other cars - it is 'swaged' along the sides of the engine bay for extra room
56astro ·
Thanks for the tip GT.
On the mock up the fuel rail doesn't extend past the edge of the tinware by much at all. The edge of the tinware is a couple of inches or so inside the engine bay.
Hopefully I can avoid some body work.
koolkarmakombi ·
So if I find an upright tail light lada niva I can get a haltech ecu from it to use as well?
I always wondered with those ladas, essentially a fiat 1500 with added efi to meet local regs. Since the efi is added locally it could be well adaptable to our cause.
Did you get my u2u COOL ?
kkk
VWCOOL wrote:
KruizinKombi wrote:Steve, I beleive you need to get yourself an ECU from a Lada Niva; still the AC Delco as used on Holdens, but suitable for crank-fired coilpacks. 🥷
The 'upright tail light' Ladas used a Haltech
Won't the Delco ECU (FamilyII-powered Pulsar/Camira) crank-fire, like V6 Commodore?
[ Edited on 1-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]
VWCOOL ·
As far as I know, yes. But I don't know if it was a specially-built box or what... just that it was a Haltech box. It was alooong time ago!
Don't think I got the U2U...?
EDIT: maybe it was a GM/Delco box installed by Haltech...? The plot thickens!!
koolkarmakombi wrote:So if I find an upright tail light lada niva I can get a haltech ecu from it to use as well?
I always wondered with those ladas, essentially a fiat 1500 with added efi to meet local regs. Since the efi is added locally it could be well adaptable to our cause.
Did you get my u2u COOL ?
kkk
VWCOOL wrote:
KruizinKombi wrote:Steve, I beleive you need to get yourself an ECU from a Lada Niva; still the AC Delco as used on Holdens, but suitable for crank-fired coilpacks. 🥷
The 'upright tail light' Ladas used a Haltech
Won't the Delco ECU (FamilyII-powered Pulsar/Camira) crank-fire, like V6 Commodore?
[ Edited on 1-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]
[ Edited on 15-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]
KruizinKombi ·
VWCOOL wrote:The 'upright tail light' Ladas used a Haltech
Won't the Delco ECU (FamilyII-powered Pulsar/Camira) crank-fire, like V6 Commodore?
The 'upright tail light' Ladas may have indeed used a Haltech, so I will leave it up to yourselves to interpret the following email....
Hi Colin, sorry about slow reply
If you dont have a distributor, then the only really successful way is to add a GM 4 cyl coilpak
These are the same as found on the 1.7L TBI Lada Niva of all things.
In USA Chev of course use them on most of their 4 cyls and I import used ones in
Theyt are $300 and you need to fabricate a crank trigger to suit
I have diagram of this
Lada actually notch the bottom pulley
If this system interests you then let me know
It will end up better than any other
Regards
Alan Gibbs www.kalmaker.com.au
Judsons4eva ·
Guys
I really think you should take a serious look at Gotech. They are VW specialists in South Africa. (connected with Volkspares in Jo'burg) I put one on my Type 4 Spyder. They have start up maps for most VW engines and give great support by email and phone. i have no connection with them just that I had a good experience and it works great. It is easy to map and adjust and is set up to use readily available sensors. I believe it will support twin plugs as well. I have the lowest spec version MFI but the MFI Pro has greater capability. For around $400 you cant go wrong!
Ken
56astro ·
Too late Judson, you can stop the hard sell now.
I've gone Link G3, for the reasons mentioned above.
[ Edited on 15-2-2007 by 56astro ]
Judsons4eva ·
Astro
I have no association with Gotech and sure you have made your choice on what ECU to use and that is fine. Looking at the Link site it is apperas equally as capable as the Gotech. But this is a forum open to all members and having had good experience with a Gotech EFI which in my opinion is the cheapest new ECU available on the market and is user friendly and has good support I am am just sharing this information with all Aussieveedubbers. My EFI set up cost me less than $1000 all up. ECU, injectors, throttle bodies, sensors - the lot!
By the way I like your Mexican fuel rails and manifolds. Who supplied them ?
Regards
Ken
[ Edited on 16-2-2007 by Judsons4eva ]
56astro ·
Aldo Alfonso Quiroga Valdez, Mehico. He has all the late-model beetle EFI stuff.
Big choice of ECUs - haltech, Motec, Link, Gotech, Megasquirt, Kalmaker/Delco... what else is there?
Yeah those Mexico manifolds look good
Astro, did your 'kit' include those injectors?
[ Edited on 16-2-2007 by VWCOOL ]
56astro ·
No,
they are the Camira ones.
ATM they are not a snug fit, but with a nitro-rubber (fuel resistant) O-ring they will be perfect.
VWCOOL ·
56astro wrote:No,
they are the Camira ones.
ATM they are not a snug fit, but with a nitro-rubber (fuel resistant) O-ring they will be perfect.
Okay - the same ones I have. Cheers!
56astro ·
Crank pulley and trigger wheel turned up yesterday
60-2 trigger wheel
new sensor and bracket
dangerous ·
Spiffy.
Is that the electromotive one?
And you can keep your dual spark deal?
56astro ·
That's it Dave.
The Dyno guy at Port Macquarie said he had recently done an EMS conversion on a twin spark 911. The owner made his own trigger wheel, also a 60-2 I think.
My fabrication skills are 0, so I thought it was best to get a unit, complete. I also get a std size pulley as the one on the engine at the moment is slightly smaller (off a type III or something).
When setting up the Link ECU I just select "60-2" in the drop-down menu for trigger input and bingo.
Craig Torrens ·
Can you trigger off the flywheel ?
56astro ·
Yeah mate, you could. But you would need to create a reference point (such as a missing tooth).
Not sure if the ECU could be configured to understand, for example, 130-2 tooth (or however many teeth a flywheel has).
KruizinKombi ·
Alternatively, depending on your sensor, you can drill holes in the flywheel in the required pattern. The holes should not need to go right through. The holes substitute for the gaps between the teeth of the trigger wheel.
ratty 63 ·
KruizinKombi wrote:Alternatively, depending on your sensor, you can drill holes in the flywheel in the required pattern. The holes should not need to go right through. The holes substitute for the gaps between the teeth of the trigger wheel.
This is exactly what I had planned to eventually do with my set-up - but first I am going to set up up to trigger from the pully end for ease of removal/replacement/repair (basically, until I know that I have it correct 😀)
Astro, that toothed wheel looks fantastic, very flashy!
R 🙂
Turbo54 ·
I am running mine off my flywheel, too much lash in the cam/distributer gearing,
T54
56astro ·
It was getting a bit embarrasing watching all the progress on the other projects so I thought I'd better pull the finger out.
Got some gromets and rubber mounts from the local auto shop and fitted the ECU and loom.
hellbugged ·
:thumb.....goodo Steve,
i've suddenly become very interested in how the tuning of that "link" goes😁
Malcom has been turning work over quickly during the past couple of weeks, i keep waiting for progress on that motor sitting in the back corner.........get amongst it:thumb
jakjones ·
So that trigger wheel with the missing teeth is the reluctor type > yeh ?
that sender has only 2 wires I would think
56astro ·
Jak,
The magnetic (reluctor?) sensor has 3 wires. I'm no sparky so I don't know which is which. :duh
It came with the wheel, and the ECU has been configured to read it. That's all I know.
Daimo,
I should go and see Malcolm today to see if the tank has been finished. Neither of them are game to touch it with the welder.
BOOM 😁
ian.mezz ·
So are you going to just put the old camira stuff on or are u getting the injector testd and cleaned???
Injectors supplier http://www.aznew.com.au/main.asp
and are you going to use that old fuel pump??
I think you can stiill buy the correct hose for fuel pump from holden still . the one that fitts on the big end and goes onto a normal fuel pipe.
56astro ·
ian.mezz wrote:So are you going to just put the old camira stuff on or are u getting the injector testd and cleaned???
Cleaned and tested by EFI workshop.
ian.mezz wrote:and are you going to use that old fuel pump??
I think you can stiill buy the correct hose for fuel pump from holden still . the one that fitts on the big end and goes onto a normal fuel pipe.
Yep, the one shown in the pics.
I have a box of new EFI hose to go from pump, through tunnel, to fuel rails and reg.
ian.mezz ·
thats good it seemed like a lot of work going into efi system .i didnt really think you would go to all that trouble just to use old camira stuff.i was just talking to stan about a five minute question that took 45 minutes to get the anwser:P:P
56astro ·
😂
And Ruth was probably in the background telling him to get back to work.
😂
punchbuggyracer ·
You've had me doing a bit of investigating in regards to this whole camira EFI system. Reason being I have a E6GM Haltech ECU, which is the plug in computer for the Camira JD and JE. I actually had it for FJ panel van Im putting a VN series II engine in.
I can get my hands on a complete Lada Niva TBI 1.7L EFI kit from the wreckers for $550. The Lada is similar or the same as the Camira JD in that it has the single point injection. But I want a performance ignition and 4 point injection. I cannot get my hands on a wiring diagram for the car either.
Ive had some access to alot of wiring diagrams and Ive been comparing all diagrams that the Haltech plugs into, They are all pretty much the same, the V6 Holden has two extra injectors. The VNs DIS and the Camira's distributor use the same 4 wires in the computer. The Best part about this system is that the Crank angle sensor signal goes directly to the DIS module and not the ECU like all other setups. Which must be why Kalmaker can change them over easily.
Im going to go for the Camira JE harness and get a DIS module off a:
I havent seen wiring diagrams for these cars yet, but the DIS unit looks exactly the same as a VN series II module except two coils instead of three. The bueaty of them also, to me is you can get the MSD pn8224 coils(about $85 each) and run a MSD DIS2 ignition system (about $400) with the MSD GM tower packs(dont know the price). These DIS modules are avaliable off ebay US for as little as $16USD but average $25USD.
As far as i can tell you should be able to use a VN crank angle sensor and trigger. And should be all plug in with no mods, as far as the lume is concerned.
The VN guys run 2.6L Magna injectors because they apparently flow a hell of a lot more than the Commodore ones and are a straight swap (so great if i go two a 2.7L Type 4), so Ill be getting some of those.
I also have a 62mm VN throttle body with all the map sensors and such that I hope will plug straight into the Camira lume. Ibought it for $32.50. Be aware that there are different diametre shafts in those throttle bodies so try to get the skinny one for better flow. The V8 ones are 65mm but are like $100 (once again a straight swap for the V6).
Feel free to correct any mistakes I would hate to miss leed someone here and waste someone elses money.
[ Edited on 26-7-2007 by punchbuggyracer ]
vw54 ·
Steve
Its looking good how far away from start up are you
matara ·
Also Steve, how much do you expect this total setup is going to cost overall?
Thanks
Steve
56astro ·
Dave,
I'm still waiting on the fabricator to put the intake system together. We have come up with a paper model of the plenum and runner-connections, but that's where it's stalled. He had some insurance work he needed to finish, and I've been flat-strap finishing uni (woo-hoo) and working.
I would of liked to have it all together before the rego was due again, but I don't think it's going to happen that soon.
Steve,
Don't even go there! hehe.
I will probably sit down and cost everything when it's all going. The problem with that is that the kill-joys will say it was a waste of money. It's definately more than a set of dual carbs, but will shit all over them with reliability and drivability.
Plus, if I post the cost here the Mrs could find out!
Punchbuggyracer,
You have definately done more research than I have. I just know that I wanted to get rid of the dizzy, and the Delco couldn't fire twin ignition without even more stuffing around. Just got an ECU that could. Keep us informed of your progress - start a new thread. 👍
56astro ·
A little taste of what's to come.
Air temp sensor on passenger side of intake.
The detail and workmanship is spot-on. Awesome work Brad 👍
TB in position
Things are starting to happen.
The fuel tank is being resprayed, and the spray painter said that the welding of the surge pot was extremely well done - A1.
More to follow ......
Turbo54 ·
Hey Astro, looking good. Glad it's starting to come together for you finally. It's funny how the time lines seem to blow out so far and how easy quick things take the longest. Keep going.
T54
ratty 63 ·
Looks fantastic - that manifold is a work of art!
Keep us up to date - I'll be hovering in the background, watching ....
R 🙂
56astro ·
Fuel tank is back
Manifold is going on tonight.
I have been putting things together this afternoon but having all sorts of trouble.
First attempt - got the manifold and runners on only to realise the alternator stand had to go on first.
Everything back off - stand on, alt on, manifold and runners on - fan not on.
Aaahhhhhhh!!! 😬🤪
Having a spell and some dinner, then back into it.
Stay tuned
56astro ·
Injector rubbers machined down to fit the camira injectors into the Mexican end castings
Valve covers have been vented
Electromotive trigger wheel behind crank pulley
Bracket serves 2 purposes: throttle cable junction and secure the TB
Fuel tank with swirl pot added
Big outlet and smaller return line
Tank vent
View of the inside - the swirl pot has a semi-lid over the collection area to help stop fuel from sloshing back out
Pre-filter, pump and pulse dampener. The length of hose is from a VL commodore (8mm to 10mm)
56astro ·
The pics are a bit how-ya-goin' cause they were taken under lights without a flash.
I'll replace them with proper ones in a day or so. Gotta work tomorrow (double $ to help fund this).
Craig Torrens ·
so what happens if it doesn't perform as well as the kads 😂
Looking good, Westi did a great job 👍
johny rotten ·
What air gap would u need with that crank trigger ?
Probably within .020" I would imagine, but then I could be way off the mark
56astro ·
Craig Torrens wrote:so what happens if it doesn't perform as well as the kads 😂
😂 You sound like a broken record man.
Do you mean run-on and won't idle when cold. Oh, it won't do that.
Craig Torrens ·
have you worked out the air gap yet ? 😀😀
56astro ·
Intake system finally installed after the dramas of a couple of nights ago.
Drivers side.
Valve cover breather.
New bracket for TB. The bracket for the ignition coils is also a work of art.
Passenger side. Electrical connectors for injectors are positioned inboard for neatness.
Base of plenum. Dizzy - GONE! Fuel pump - GONE! New case breather.
Runners behind alt stand.
Magnetic crank sensor.
Tank completed with new coat of paint.
Outlet line (bottom) and return line (top).
Tank breather/vent.
Looking through fuel gauge sender hole at swirl pot with a 'lid' semi-covering the swirl pot.
nbturbo ·
Top stuff happening there.Could you tell me the distance between your injectors where the rails fit on.I like how simple the OG fuel rails are.I am altering the manifolds on my Autocraft motor to fit Bosch injectors-and would save a heap of work having to make new rails-could make the injector positions to suit the rails.Thanks,Gary.
56astro ·
Gary, do you mean the distance between the front and rear injector at the fuel rail?
nbturbo ·
Yes-how far apart are the injectors.I am going to mill injector pockets directly into the manifolds-so need to know how far apart to drill the holes, for the injectors to line up with the cups in the fuel rails.
56astro ·
52mm between centres of fuel rail fittings.
Does that help?
nbturbo ·
Yes,that's what I was after-thanks very much.The hole centres on mine are only 46mm,so would have to do a lot of welding to build them up,so it would be the same amount of work to make new fuel rails.Was hoping for an easy run for a change-thanks again.
hellbugged ·
............and the progress Steve......?
nbturbo ·
Guess I will have to make new fuel rails again.
BeetleJuice ·
56astro wrote:Intake system finally installed after the dramas of a couple of nights ago.
Hi Steve
From the pic for a moment,I thought you were experimenting with diesel!! {no ignition!} 😂
It'll be interesting to see how she goes.
Craig
hellbugged ·
how many weeks to Valla Steve...............8 ?
hellbugged ·
want to loan some carbs Steve????🙂
give me a call if you are in need of some extra hands.
vw54 ·
come on Steve put the motor in the car ???
StenGuns ·
Can you tell me who supplies these?
Thanks
56astro wrote:Crank pulley and trigger wheel turned up yesterday
60-2 trigger wheel
new sensor and bracket
johny rotten ·
you could a CV joint ABS ring 😊
or you could use a couple of flying magnets
Ampdub ·
I am also interested in who supplies the crank trigger wheel. i can do the electronic ignition without the injection.
Please post where you had this done, i am sure they would get a lot of orders and everyone will be doing this conversion rather than than the compufire conversion.
hellbugged ·
Ampdub61 wrote:I am also interested in who supplies the crank trigger wheel. i can do the electronic ignition without the injection.
Please post where you had this done, i am sure they would get a lot of orders and everyone will be doing this conversion rather than than the compufire conversion.
Spoke with the fellas at the workshop last week to find out what progress has been made. Old mate said that it has been started and is running. They have driven it in and out of the workshop (to get other cars finished!).
He did say that the TB was way too big, so we may have to change it for the Camira one I had intended to use, or another one that suits.
We have organised to have some dyno tuning done this Wednesday. I will try and organise a video camera and get some footage.
hellbugged ·
👍.........great Steve ready for 2010?😀
56astro ·
What ........
no Spectacular in 2009 .............
that'd be right.
Better late than never, eh?
How did ya go with the gear ratio Q?
Do you still want me to run some ratios through the calculator?
hellbugged ·
worked it out mate thanx...........
glad to see the car is almost ready again, hope to see you about soon with that big VW grin on your dial.
those boys will give you a HP/tourque graph in shootout mode too yeah?..........that will be interesting for sure
56astro ·
I'll ask them to 👍
johny rotten ·
what size TB would suit do you think
I would have thought almost any dual carb set up
to be better than the manifold in the picture as far as air flow is concerned 😂
Craig Torrens ·
bet the kadrons would make more power 😂.
56astro ·
You guys don't understand why I have gone down the EFI-route.
What size TB are used on other 2 litre production engines?
If you put your carbie-thinking-cap on and have a look at just about every single production car on the road you will find faults with the intake system regarding "air flow". But in my/Westi's design we have about 1/2 a litre of volume per runner. How much air can 1 cylinder take in 1 stroke?
It's not about power, it's about a broad torque curve, and a ssmmooootthh running engine. If I wanted power I'd have gone down the steroid route in the first place.
Keep up guys, it's the 21st century!! 😂
vw54 ·
Keep up guys, it's the 21st century!!
you tell eum Steve they dont understand I did exactly what your doing makes sense to me keep up the good work and hurry up n finish the job will yar
I started after you and have had mine going for 12 months now
westi ·
please do not change the throttle body as it is all in the tune.
please ,please please.
we are running 90mm on 4cyl engines they are as smooth as silk to drive.we even have done a 100mm on our latest project.
most factory cars in the 2ltr classes these days come with a minimum of 65mm.and they produce good torque from very low in the rev range.
even the little cube engines are still running 50mm.1.3/1,4 yaris's and stuff like that.
it is good to see it all happening,can't wait to see her finished.
56astro ·
westi wrote:it is good to see it all happening,can't wait to see her finished.
Maaate, did you think it had come to a sad end?
Not on your life!!
The 'tuner' (for want of a better word) said that they had got close to max. air flow with
Load runs done today after some muckin around with the fuel pressure reg and other stuff.
Max RWHP atm is 69.2 (91 RON unleaded).
Redline has been set @ 5200 (rather than 5500) as that's where the power begins to drop off.
Still some tuning to do tomorrow on the cold start-ups and stuff, but otherwise pretty much finished.
I got some video footage but it needs to be edited as the files are too large for photobucket.
Craig Torrens ·
power shouldn't be dropping off below 5500rpm............that combo produces 85hp on kadrons.
Not hassling you Steve, but you should be getting more than 69hp. 👍
hellbugged ·
great news to have it going Steve
do the curves look nice and even ?...........doesn't sound like you have driven it yet, keen to know how different it feels when you do, be sure to drop in on me!
realizing your not after maximum attack, but it would be nice to have some mapping beyond the HP drop off , as it can be quicker in some instances to rev more than saccrifice the time it takes to change gears
Question? The link above is a range of VW's on test with RWP on some modest performance engines of around 100rwhp. Are these yanks dreaming or am I missing something? What is your engine specs? The EFI setup looks like it is designed for 120hp+ flywheel hp.
I accept you are still tuning and the RPM is still low.
hellbugged ·
am i missing sumthing ❓ .........there's nothing modest in that link?
dangerous ·
Yes their wheel dynos read more than ours.
Most of their calculations claim wheel power to be the same as our FW power.
I wish mine was that good but it aint.
I would be trying to get them to tune it at least 10% past the rpm at which peak power occurs.
Great installation.
Good work.
85 wheel power with Kadrons Craig?
Thats pretty damn good.
56astro ·
Everyone seems to get hung up on HP figures. That's fine in competition circles and the like.
My car is a daily driver, like other people's Magnas and Dunnydores. So in my case the torque numbers, curve and spread are more important. Not peak HP @ high revs. After all, how long does the engine sit in the peak HP rev range anyways!! (Not including your work car Craig!!)
The redline on the spec sheet was 5500, so reducing that by 300RPM is no biggy.
Dave, I will pass on the "10%" suggestion to them today 👍
Hopefully, it will be finished today, but I'm not expecting to be able to get to the Engineer and RTA until next week.
Mick058 ·
looking good Steve.
Now im on a steep learning curve and am seeking to understand, but even if your after a daily driver, why would you set the RPM below peak power?
So the base peaks at 5500rpm, and can rev to 6200rpm - what would be the advantage in setting it at 5200rpm? How would that give you a better torque curve? Isn't that the point of forking out for the twin plugs too...
Cheers, Mick
56astro ·
Mick058 wrote:looking good Steve.
Now im on a steep learning curve and am seeking to understand, but even if your after a daily driver, why would you set the RPM below peak power?
So the base peaks at 5500rpm, and can rev to 6200rpm - what would be the advantage in setting it at 5200rpm? How would that give you a better torque curve? Isn't that the point of forking out for the twin plugs too...
Cheers, Mick
Mick, you will notice that I no longer run carbies. All the HP and rev limits quoted for the base 1915 were for carbies.
I have gone for a single TB inlet for torque (mainly determined by EFI runner length), tuning simplicity, parts replacement, and noise reduction.
I haven't (and probably never will) had the opportunity to compare my set-up with EXACTLY the same engine without EFI, single TB, twin ignition. But each of those 'improvements' was always intended to make MY car a better daily driver proposition.
Regarding the red line and tuning issues, I will revisit this with the boys today, as suggested by DB above.
Mick058 ·
Cheers Steve.
How much quieter is it?
Sorry, what does 'TB' stand for.
56astro ·
HEAPS
Throttle body
Judsons4eva ·
Steve
What RWHP did the carby version do?
Hope to get my 2.0L 914 engine (with EFI) on a dyno soon - trying to establish what is good power for as you say a reliable daily driver.
Ken
56astro ·
Craig Torrens wrote:that combo produces 85hp on kadrons.
56astro ·
Don't loose sight of the fact that the runners are un-modified factory ones off a 1600. If we had come up with a complete custom intake the results may be different.
But bet your bottom dollar these factors won't be taken into account when the inevitable 'rubbishing' is taking place.
Craig Torrens ·
56astro wrote:The redline on the spec sheet was 5500, so reducing that by 300RPM is no biggy.
Steve peak power for that combo is produced at 5500rpm with REDLINE at 6200rpm......so I suggest you reset your computer because YES it is a "biggy"
Setting it at 5200 means your motor will NEVER reach peak power, and when you change gears (at 5200) the rev drop will then take you to below where the cam is efficient...............not very sensible for a daily driver.
Mick058 ·
ha, the bliss of forums.
If you accomplished what you wanted, stuff em - on the other hand, if you haven't, takes some guts to admit it.
Thanks for sharing the info, i've watched it only the last few days and have enjoyed the read 👍
56astro ·
Craig Torrens wrote:and when you change gears (at 5200) the rev drop will then take you to below where the cam is efficient...............not very sensible for a daily driver.
🙅
Cam comes on about 2200 according to the building, and that is what I have experienced prior to the twin plugs.
The difference in revs between changing at 5000 or 5500 is:
272 for 1st to 2nd
306 for 2nd to 3rd
326 for 3rd to 4th
The revs at the next gear for a 5000 gear change is:
2724
3058
3253
all after the cam has come-on.
IT IS NO BIGGY!!
56astro ·
Craig Torrens wrote:Steve peak power for that combo is produced at 5500rpm with REDLINE at 6200rpm.....
What combo?
76bug ·
56astro are u running pobjoy's 356C cam ???
56astro ·
37/68
vw54 ·
Steve
I bet it going to drive quite nice not lumpy or noisy at all very similar
you should have come for a run at Valla
56astro ·
Dave,
Yes, nice and quiet,
and smooth,
and fuel efficient,
and easy to start,
and not have to ride the accelerator on cold mornings,
and ..... ahh, you get the picture - speaking to the converted eh.
Valla would have been a bit depressing this year, seeing as how long it has taken to get the dub back on the road. I didn't expect it to take this long, you did a great job getting yours together in the time you did.
dangerous ·
Knowing how longer runners on my engine
moved the power and torque figures to a lower rpm,
I would say that the difference between yours now
and the Kadron manifolds before,
would do just as you say.(about 300rpm earlier)
Regarding power figures, I would not be concerned with the actual number.
The fact that it is occuring at that particular rpm is the key to it all.
Dynos can tell different power figures,
but the rpm where it occurs means there is not anything wrong.
(being how close it is to the claimed/advertised rpm for that long block).
Being a little lower in the rpm means, yes, it may be slightly lower in power,
but may be easilly 20ftlbs higher in torque at the lower rpm.
Exactly what you are after.
56astro ·
Thanks Dave,
About the dyno, the machine is a Dyno Dynamics one, but an earlier type I think. I asked about shoot-out mode and they said it didn't have it, so not sure if the number needs to be corrected.
I was hesitant about quoting the HP figures for this very reason. But in the end I decided that being open was probably better than being secretive.
Your last paragraph is spot-on. 👍
sander288 ·
personally I love what you've done, been looking at something like this for ages, just never had the money..
sander288 ·
found this UK kit, just costs alot.. that said all the R&D is done
Craig Torrens wrote:and when you change gears (at 5200) the rev drop will then take you to below where the cam is efficient...............not very sensible for a daily driver.
🙅
Cam comes on about 2200 according to the building, and that is what I have experienced prior to the twin plugs.
The difference in revs between changing at 5000 or 5500 is:
272 for 1st to 2nd
306 for 2nd to 3rd
326 for 3rd to 4th
The revs at the next gear for a 5000 gear change is:
2724
3058
3253
all after the cam has come-on.
IT IS NO BIGGY!!
Steve, when you say "redline is set" I'm assuming you mean the rev limit/cut off of the computer? If so I think you are missing my point.................your redline is set 1000rpm below the specs of the motor......so you should be showing the difference between 5200 and 6200 on your gear calculator (rev drop) not from 5500 to 5000.
Also the 37/68 cam "comes on" at 3500rpm not 2200rpm (as per builders specs), so with EVERY one of your gear changes you are 300 to 800rpm below where it actually starts to work effectively.
The 2200rpm refers to the "crash point" of the cam, which is the lowest point where it will accept "full throttle" on an engine dyno test.
Glad you're happy and the car is back on the road, but you are not matching your fuel delivery system with your engine specs.
56astro ·
It never went to 6200, even after the bigger fuel line was put in.
And 99% of the gear changes were no where near that anyway.
Stock beetle gearing puts the 1st-2nd gear change below 3500, so if what you're saying is correct, the cam is not 100% suited to the stock gearing.
Again, what combo??
56astro ·
56astro wrote:
Craig Torrens wrote:Steve peak power for that combo is produced at 5500rpm with REDLINE at 6200rpm.....
What combo?
Well, what combo??
Craig Torrens ·
base pobjoy 1916 with twin plugs...........37/68 cam, standard 040 heads, 94mm PB, balanced standard crank blah blah...............the same motor that he built for you years ago, unless you've changed it.
Every other base has no probs running to 6200rpm.
Steve, I just want you to get the best out of your motor but it seems there is really no point me trying to give you advice.......good luck with it.😎
hellbugged ·
i'm sure you know i'm not being critical or difficult Steve............i admire the install and someone chasing exactly what they are after for THEIR car be it the easiest, cheapest, best blah.......that's certainly what i did too.
there are plenty of other factors that might be retarding the dyno figure........maybe it's the dyno itself as stated, there is plenty of gain from different exhaust styles/sizes what maybe 10HP!........hell even the muffler might be holding it back by a few.........who knows maybe the engine is wanting a bigger system now. some more specs on the engine would help to see wether it's a good figure or not.........BUT
..that's not the issue, i'm very interested to see how quiet it is, the difference in fuel economy and general drivability of it........can't wait to hear what YOU find, after all you will be the only one able to let us know the differences.
well done!!
happy with the way the boys went about it down there?
Judsons4eva ·
I am an infrequent poster on this forum but I do look at it every week or so, the tech threads being the most interesting to me. I have been in the professional engine R&D business for over 30 years. However in many cases practical/hands on experience leaves the the theory for dead.
What amazes me is that most the tech threads ends up in a pissing contest.
Steve I admire what you have achieved, having done my own EFI in the back shed it is a real sense of achievement getting it all together after understanding in a hands on way - pulse width, TPS, TB, trigger wheels, etc, etc and then firing up the beast!
Don't take the various comments as criticism - just more constructive comments.
Keep on tweaking and good job.
Ken
Mick058 ·
Well said Ken - and steve, really well done, i think its a tops effort.
Im not trying to be difficult but my base pobjoy with twin plugs revs to 6200rpm with no problems, and it stops to push after 5500rpm. My exhaust set-up is one of classic veedubs stainless steel numbers.
Hope this helps.
Cheers Mick.
56astro ·
Craig,
the 'combo' you speak of had twin kadrons, correct?
If so, you may not have realised yet BUT THEY HAVE GONE! The intake system is completely different, so it is a different 'combo'. With other changes more than 6200 is possible, but that would also be a different 'combo'. 🤪
Ken, you're right.
I'm listening to the constructive stuff, sometimes even quoting it.
What is frustrating is when some people can't get their head around the fact that what works for some, don't work for everyone.
This engine/EFI conversion has ticked all the boxes for MY NEEDS. The previous set-up didn't, but it wasn't a bad set-up by any means.
I concede that there are COMPROMISES, but what you miss out on the ferris wheel you pick up on the merry-go-round (so to speak). As DB said above, torque down low has probably increased, where it counts. Even the intake system on my family Dunnydore is a compromise. If I wanted to take it to the track every month I'd probably put ITBs on it, but why would I want to when it's a daily driver.
As I've said before, there are most likely inefficiencies in the intake system (the runner ends came off a 1600). But this system fulfils other needs/functions/intentions blah blah blah of MINE. Not anyone else's. I determined it would be easier to use them and join where they finish rather than have someone design and make completely new ones. I'm not stopping or discouraging anyone else from doing it though.
So I'm not sure why people are so intent on 'rubbishing' this, or defending the old carbed engine.
If you have a similar engine and want more peak HP (but maybe less torque down where it counts for a daily driver) don't do what I did. Put quad TBs on it and put up with the noise and drone for over 2 hours a day.
Not me. 🤪
Daimo,
The boys down there were extremely helpful. While Brendan tuned, Graeme explained what he was doing with timing and fuel etc.
StenGuns ·
Hats off to you mate.. Even though I didn't get my hands dirty on the EFI for my vehicle (I am TTT deficient - Time, Tools, Talent) I fully understand the tweaking, tinkering and decision making you go through to get WHAT YOU WANT.. My 1916 is going to deliver hopefully, a beautiful balanced, torquey output. The last piece in the jigsaw was the exhaust setup and that will be finalised next week. Westside fabricate a sweet looking twin setup that is going to still give me the twin pipe "stock" look.
All the best.. Rob
56astro ·
Thanks Rob.
Your engine bay looks so .............. plain (in a nice way).
Looking forward to seeing it full of wiring and hoses 👍
StenGuns ·
You won't be seeing any of those mate.. The coil (Golf 4) is tucked behind the shroud and the leads are all from the back.. No dizzy (trigger wheel like yours).. The only hose will be a bradied line from the breather on the neck down through the tinware..
Its not PLAIN! I'm a minimalist!!
56astro wrote:Thanks Rob.
Your engine bay looks so .............. plain (in a nice way).
Looking forward to seeing it full of wiring and hoses 👍
Mick058 ·
56astro wrote:It never went to 6200, even after the bigger fuel line was put in.
And 99% of the gear changes were no where near that anyway.
Stock beetle gearing puts the 1st-2nd gear change below 3500, so if what you're saying is correct, the cam is not 100% suited to the stock gearing.
Again, what combo??
Hey Steve, My reply was in regards to this...i assume 'it never' referred to the old combo you had, that is carbies etc...
My concern was that maybe something was off to cause the lower rpm, which may be effecting your current engine combo. Maybe its just a high end thing, in which its of no big deal to you as your after a torque increase, but then it could still effect lower end. iunno, im a novice - just letting you know that on carbies mine hits 6200 no problems.
I'll leave it at that, i wont mention RPM anymore!! 😂
Look forward to seeing it and especially hearing it, or not hearing it should i say.
56astro ·
Nah Mick, it's all sweet.
Your exhaust looks like a merged or semi-merged one (nice by the way). You're also running 44 IDFs aren't you?
Mine is a (un)merged thunderbird(?) so there would be restriction and losses there.
The quietness I referred to is from within the car, no more annoying induction noise.
56astro ·
Rob
I realised after I posted that you already had yours running. So your engine bay is really neat, well done 👍
Mick058 ·
yeh the webers are loud! I had them before the engine otherwise i would of used the kadrons, as they are better on the base.
i'd liked to go to the steriods in a couple of years and EFI that - shame Stan never did much with the EFI...o well time will tell.
Thanks for your build, will make a good reference point.
westi ·
sounds good.
how long before your fist cruz.or have you been there done that already.
how did you go with the tb ,did it work out ok or did it get the arse.
hopefully all is well and we will see some more photage of it in action soon.
56astro ·
Hey Brad,
Pick it up Monday and take it to the engineer - NRMA (ctp) - RTA.
Not sure with the cold start stuff, they were supposed to be doing that today. They said they'd like it back in a month or so to go over the maps.
I have put together a compilation of the footage but some of the sections come out as stills. I'll work on it, get some more, and post it up.
Thanks for your help and assistance. Without people such as yourself this thing would never have gotten off the ground (some people wished it had never gotten off the ground 😏)
As we say in the job, see ya at the big one!
1303Steve ·
Hi
Bet you cant wait to drive it. I remember when I first went from IDAs to EFI I couldn't believe how good the car was to drive, you put your foot down at any time and know exactly how the car would react.
Steve
Ampdub ·
StenGuns wrote:Hats off to you mate.. Even though I didn't get my hands dirty on the EFI for my vehicle (I am TTT deficient - Time, Tools, Talent) I fully understand the tweaking, tinkering and decision making you go through to get WHAT YOU WANT.. My 1916 is going to deliver hopefully, a beautiful balanced, torquey output. The last piece in the jigsaw was the exhaust setup and that will be finalised next week. Westside fabricate a sweet looking twin setup that is going to still give me the twin pipe "stock" look.
All the best.. Rob
what type of end castings are you using there, CB or self made? looking at going this route. what is the approximate cost of these?
thanks
56astro ·
Somewhere above, amongst the 170-odd posts, you should find the answer to that one !
westi ·
how was the first drive.were is the vid's or pic's
com on mate you have to share.
Craig Torrens ·
As a guide for others who wish to do this, how much did it cost you to do the whole conversion ?
56astro ·
Still fishing Craig??
Anyone wanting to do this should price all the components necessary for THAT PARTICULAR system. Then factor in labour costs for all the work you can't do yourself (in my case that was a lot).
Cheapest way I imagine would be to wack on a set of quad TBs.
Try a different bait Craig!
pete wood ·
you'd be surprise how expensive a quad throttle body setup is. I got a 'cheap' quote for an entry level setup that roughly added up to $4k before fitting or tuning. So I don't if I'd say I could "wack" on quads as the cheapest way.
Astro, respectfully, it would be great to know the details of what you've spent (itemised) so others can pick your brains a bit. I see what you're aiming for and for a street car it's a good aim. You are right about hidden costs though.
56astro ·
Pete,
the nay-sayers would just laugh at the costs, so why give them the satisfaction. I learnt a lesson very recently, quite often it is better to be secretive, unfortunately.
hellbugged ·
driving yet Steve?...........yep no way around it, EFI ain't cheap, but has wonderful benefit's for the investment, i can't wait to do mine too.
pete wood ·
56astro wrote:Pete,
the nay-sayers would just laugh at the costs, so why give them the satisfaction. I learnt a lesson very recently, quite often it is better to be secretive, unfortunately.
I'd be interested to know if you trusted me enough to pm me with the details. I'm not a nay-sayer, just an interested observer.
nbturbo ·
[
The quietness I referred to is from within the car, no more annoying induction noise. [/quote] Couldn't agree more!!!! I'm using 48mm T/Bodies on mine and have had it running for 9 months now and it's faultless-starts instantly hot or cold,no flatspots at any throttle position,pulls like a train up to the 6200rpm rev limiter,but it's got the annoying noise at all times from the small air filters.When I get some time,I am going to build a single centre mount air filter set up with connections to the T/B's.I have a filter pad from a V6 Hyundi AWD which is a good size to build something around.
Craig Torrens ·
56astro wrote:Still fishing Craig??
Try a different bait Craig!
Nope not fishing Steve, it is actually a genuine question.
If you dont want to answer thats ok.
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE ·
The efi set up on my brother's Type 3 is worth more than the value of most people's cars on this forum.
By the time you add the cost of the manifold fabrication, cost of the ECU,coil packs and CDI controller box plus a myriad of other sensors plus the cost to have it fitted and tuned...... plus what Troy,my Dad and myself did in fabbing stuff up and fitting/removing and trying again.......
Let's say over $8k easy..... ouch!
pete wood ·
definitely the cheapest EFI you can get comes attached to a watercooled jap motor. the problem on an aircooled motor is that you have to pay for the R&D as well as the hardware.
It's a crude EFI system, with not many features. John ran it in his Max FX Buggy which was at the dyno day - John Barrett - Blue 2003 Manx FX 2230cc - 84.4hp.
1303Steve ·
pete wood wrote:definitely the cheapest EFI you can get comes attached to a watercooled jap motor. the problem on an aircooled motor is that you have to pay for the R&D as well as the hardware.
Hi Pete
You are so right.
I can get Haltech ECUs at a reasonable price so I started pricing a setup from my sons bug, I stopped counting at 3K add another 1K or so for other things I may have forgotten, oh; and then you need to build a motor as well, that could be between 2 to 20K.
I reckon a Liberty motor like Buggy Brad is doing would be the go.
Steve
Yogie ·
This may be a little off the topic and sorry if I am hijacking the thread but I am looking at putting EFI on our ghia. I don't want to run the fuel return line on the outside of the car and you can't legally run it through the interior. This leaves putting it in the tunnel.
Does this create any fouling problems with the other bits in the tunnel and do you need to open it up all the way along the tunnel to weld in mounts to run the line through? How was it done from the factory even?
Thanks
Yogie
Baja Wes ·
Yogie, do some searches on return lines in the non-vw conversions sub-forum. There is plenty of discussion in there.
Yogie ·
Baja Wes wrote:Yogie, do some searches on return lines in the non-vw conversions sub-forum. There is plenty of discussion in there.
Thanks Wes.
Judsons4eva ·
My EFI cost me about $1000, BMW motorcycle quad throttle bodies, Gotech ECU, fuel pump, sensors, ram tubes and a bit of labour.
Works a treat.
Ken
pete wood ·
how much did you spend on tuning Ken?
See, with respect, I'd be surprised if we get anywhere near the most out of homebrewed EFIed aircooled motors. Let me elaborate if you will.
To start with we are way behind the eight ball in terms of inlet manifolds and such. All engine manufacturers have computer modelling to get the basics done and then spend 1000s of hours on flow benches, dynos and the like to get to a design which they feel is usable and easily reproducable. They also have the advantage of working with an engine (watercooled) that warms up and cools down more evenly making everything a little easier. Most of ECUs used on homebrewed aircoolers are not the closed loop style found on production cars. This is where the real gains are to be found in the long run. An ECU that learns from it's enviroment and loads and CUSTOM programs as it goes. We think we've done well if the motor pulls across the rev range and has no flat spots. Think again, a well tuned carburetter engine can do this, an EFIed motor should be able to do a lot more. There are endless options for tuning to get the motor to not only produce top HP, but also the most torque available at any given RPM range. And that's before we start talking about engine spec. I'm quite impressed by Astros approach because I think he's clear about his goals. Most people say two conflicting things, "I want bulk HP, but it has to be completely streetable". Sorry but you can't have both. Even with EFI you need to be very clear about what you want and I suspect a lot of us are looking for a compromise that doesn't exist. Sure, we'd all love to have that enormous top end, but if we drive a street car then we just don't need it 99% of the time. If we tune the ECU and the inlet for this top end, then we compromise the spec of the rest of the engine (usually a lot more mild) and wonder why it doesn't have the big top end or the fat torque. I reckon if you are going to homebrew your system you need to be prepared to make improvements to the inlet and spend regular time on the dyno long term. Otherwise, maybe it might be better to stick to carbs.
Either that or put a jap EFI motor (with factory ECU) in your dub. 😉
Judsons4eva ·
Pete
I have been in engine research for over 30 years including working with the big 3 in the US. I tuned mine on the road using a wideband O2 sensor and the ECU has a logging function. It is also closed loop control. I can adjust the warm up maps and also accl enrichment rate etc. My car starts first crank every time, doesn't miss a beat and pulls well across the entire rev range.
I don't think I have any comprises and it works far better than any carbi set up. I am using a ITB's with tuned length ram tubes. so manifolding is no real issue. I chose 36mm throttle bodies to give me low down tractibility and throttle response. Most people get carried away with TB's that are way to big.
So I am very happy with my $1000. No comprises.
Ken
pete wood ·
I tend to think you might be the exception here though ken.
76bug ·
i have set aftermarket EFI on a aircooled vw(mild 1776) ITB's and a microtech LT10s results were great far better than my crappy weber DCN's, 70rwhp. i spent about 2K could have done it cheaper. Pete probably beter if you stick with your subaru donk😏
hellbugged ·
ASTRO WHERE ARE YOU?
dekkerboy ·
Good luck tuning.
56astro ·
hellbugged wrote:ASTRO WHERE ARE YOU?
Here I am Damo.
Daughter is about to get her P's so I am trying to get the dub back on the road. She's mad keen to have the beetle as her car.
I have seen Brian Cross and organised to get the rear valance modified so that it's removable. The engine won't go in from underneath with all the EFI and other stuff attached.
beetleboyjeff ·
Wow, looking forward to seeing it on the road again.
56astro ·
beetleboyjeff wrote:Wow, looking forward to seeing it on the road again.
Me too mate.
It's been waaaaay too long since I was driving it to work in PMc.