FRONT Drum brakes.

Can someone tell me if the FRONT 4 stud drum brakes from a 71 T1 , have the same backing plate mounting holes as the wide five. I want to know if there is any diff other than obvious ball joint to kingpin. Do they use same bearings for eg?

All help welcomed. Todd :jesus

Front drums in a 71 bug mean that it's a standard bug which originally had the 1300 engine, not a superbug.

It's weird that VW reverted to the drums - the 68 -70 bugs had discs to both the 1300 and 1500 models as far as I know (anyone know anything different?)

I don't think (but am not certain) if the drum backing plates are the same as the wide5 wheel arrangement.

So you want to use the later drums on an early bug? Better to get a wide5 disc brake kit I would think.

aussiebug wrote:the 68 -70 bugs had discs to both the 1300 and 1500 models as far as I know (anyone know anything different?)

Rob, my baja was originally a 68 1300 deluxe german import, and it come with drum brakes on the front. Australian cars were most likely different.

Todd, I guess what your trying to do is convert a 5 stud front to 4 stub. First question is why?

I am pretty sure the 5 stud drums and 4 stud drums use different bearings, and won't be a straight swap. The backing plates should be different, once has clearance dents for king pins and one has clearance dents for ball joints, probably other differences too.

You might be able to find bearing sizes to adapt the 4 stub drum to the king ping spindle, but it comes back to why?

The later drums from a 1300 Bug are totally different to the early King n Link drum Brakes.

The backing plates mounting holes are drilled different, the bearings are a different style and size both ID and OD, and the stub axle is completely different

You need to purchase a change kit to adapt late model discs to a early King n Link pin front end.

And as Wes said Why would you want to put 4 stud drums on a car ??

Baja Wes wrote:

aussiebug wrote:the 68 -70 bugs had discs to both the 1300 and 1500 models as far as I know (anyone know anything different?)

Rob, my baja was originally a 68 1300 deluxe german import, and it come with drum brakes on the front. Australian cars were most likely different.

OK Wes - that's helps confirm something I wasn't quite sure about.

But for info, the 68 and later years saw ALL cars imported from Germany as either complete cars (the 68 semi-autos) or CKD - completely knocked down kits, for all the manuals.

You'll note that Aussie 67s have a chassis number starting 197,xxx,xxx and the 68+ cars are 118,xxx,xxx That second digit 9 means "Clayton manufactured" but the second digit 1 was used in German cars to denote the normal tin-top bug (5 was used for true cabrios). So because the floor pan etc came off the German production lines, the German identifiers were used.

It was too costly to rejig the Clayton plant for the extensive body shape changes of the 68+ cars, so CKD was introduced, and ASSEMBLY happened at Clayton (despite the Aussie compliance plate which has the word MANUFACTURED on it).

I was aware that from 71 the standard bug had the 1300 engine and the drum brakes, (and the superbug had 1600 and disc brakes) but you've confirmed that the 68-70 1300 bugs also had drum brakes - I wasn't QUITE sure about that, since my 1970 1500 (which I bought brand new) has the discs - same as the discs on my (converted to manual) 68 semi-auto 1500.

Just for more info, the CKD kits were not one-car-to-a-box, but a container of bodies, a container of floor pans, a container of engines, and so on.

I was very confused by my car (which I bought new and which still has it's original engine) when the Birth Certificate I got from Germany a few yearsa go stated that it was white with a black interior (it was Savannah Beige with a bone coloured interior when I bought it) and the quoted engine number was a few hundred out (right H series 1500 though). Once I discovered the "container of engines" arrangement I realised that when assembling these cars at Clayton, it was "first body off the pile" and "first engine off the pile", rather than strict adherence to the original German manufacturing.

Rob

when the Birth Certificate I got from Germany a few years ago stated

Yeah i was confused as well, with birth cert i got from Germany for my 1965 Sea Blue Sunroof. They stated that i had a 1987 VW Beetle ??? which had chassis number 195------.

Of course i was really happy with this as i had the NEWEST Volkswagen Beetle in Australia at the time HA HA HA

i had to go back to them and remind VW that they had produced VWs here in Australia and that the 9 represented Aussie made cars.

Finally i got my Birth Cert with the correct date etc etc

[Edited on 1-5-2003 by vw54]

[Edited on 1-5-2003 by vw54]

erm - is there anybody doing wide 5 disc brake converion kits (or carrying them) in Oz?

Or have to buy from OS?

thanks

RobK

I am surprised that VW Germany has any information on Australian manufacturing details at all. I went to some lengths to track some down through old retired Lanock Motors execs about 10 years ago, and had no luck. The motoring historian Pedr Davis doesn't have them either - he let me go through his archives.

I'm not aware there was any such thing as an Australian-model 1968-1970 1300 Beetle. Certainly there was a German 1300 in those years, but not here. The Aussie-manufactured 6-volt Deluxe 1300 was phased out in about March 1968 as the factory converted to assembly of 12-volt ball-joint 1500 CKD kits. The Standard ('Custom') 1300 austerity model was made for a few months longer, but as far as I know only the 1500 Beetle was assembled, and sold, in Australia by the end of 1968 (the semi-autos were imported).

The 1300 was reintroduced as a low-spec model when the 1600 Superbug S was introduced in 1971, and the two models were sold together until the end of 1975, when the torsion-bar 1600 was sold for one year only.

Interesting stuff Phil (no Aussie 1300s from 68-70), and I bow to your knowledge (for those who don't know - Phil is co-author of "Knowing Australian Volkswagens" - a "must read" for any enthusiast.

When I bought my 1970 1500 bug (brand new) I did think that there was a 1300 option, as I have in the back of my mind that I wanted the 1500 in preference.

I do know that at the time I bought my 1500 (5 Jan 71 but the car was originally manufactured in germany on 3 June 70 making it a lat 70 model), the dealers were not importing any more of the "old" models as the superbug was on the way (introduced into Aus in May 1971), and so my colour options were limited to what they had left (black, red or Savannah Beige in the Perth dealer I went to) - that's how I ended up with beige - I would have preferred the sky blue 1970 colour really (but I didn't like red and black for car colours).

So - if there were no Aussie assembled 1300s, does that mean that a few "austerity" models were fully imported, or just that a few private imports occured around that time and my memory of the "1300 option" is suspect?

One small "aside" here - the Country Buggies (68 and 69) were 1300 and 6v, and they WERE built in Aus, so there were certainly some new 1300 engines around in those years - if I remember right about 2500 Country Buggies were built (would have been more in the order from the South African Army materialised).

Hi Rob,

A bit difficult to answer your question here at the office, with no reference material to hand!

The 'Austerity' I was referring to was the Standard model Beetle, the stripped down model that was fully manufactured here alongside the more popular Deluxe. The standard had the 1200 engine in 1966 when the Deluxe went to 1300, but in 1967 the standard was named the 'Custom' and given the same 1300 engine. Both models were phased out in 1968 when the new Euro model was introduced - in 1500 form only.

All the Austerity (Standard or Custom) were manufactured here, none were imported.

I think the 1300 option you are thinking of was after 1971, when you could buy a torsion-bar swing-axle 1300 model instead of the 1600 Superbug.

The Country Buggy was made in 1967-68, not 1969. The 1300 was VW's staple engine in those days so it isn't surprising that's the engine they used. What IS surprising is that a 1200 engine was an option - some option!

I've never heard of the South African army wanting to use Country Buggies - sounds interesting! SA had their own VW factory (still going, in Utenhage) so I imagine that tooling would have ended up there. Instead the Country Buggy tooling went to Malaysia!

Bill Moore's Country Buggy page is:

http://members.netro.com.au/~vwcc/cb.htm

I might need your help actually Rob - people are encouraging me to update the Knowing Aussie VWs book, which I'm doing in my spare time. Would you be happy to proof read and check it for me as i go? I can send you a chapter at at time. I hope to start on it in a few months...

Rob,

John Sherman in Labrador on the Gold Coast makes a wide 5 disk brake kit that fits on the K&L front end. Its about $600 new I think! I was going to ask him if he would make one for a split screen kombi too!

I think VintageVW sell them, or are soon to sell them too
Cheers

Steve

[Edited on 2-5-2003 by matara]

Thanks steve!

Phil74Camper wrote:Hi Rob,
The 'Austerity' I was referring to was the Standard model Beetle, the stripped down model that was fully manufactured here alongside the more popular Deluxe. The standard had the 1200 engine in 1966 when the Deluxe went to 1300, but in 1967 the standard was named the 'Custom' and given the same 1300 engine. Both models were phased out in 1968 when the new Euro model was introduced - in 1500 form only.

I think the 1300 option you are thinking of was after 1971, when you could buy a torsion-bar swing-axle 1300 model instead of the 1600 Superbug.

That's possible, I certaibnly was (and still am) aware of the two 71+ options - 1600 superbug or 1300 standard bug, so I MIGHT have confused that thinking back to when I bought my 1970 bug.

So that means that for 68-70 there was effectively only one model sold - the 1500.

The Country Buggy was made in 1967-68, not 1969.

Hmmm - at the last VW big day out here in Adelaide which I went to there was a 69 Country Buggy. I asked him specifically about it as it was 6v and he was positive it was a 69. Still in original condition he said - original engine etc. I have a pic of it someplace.

What IS surprising is that a 1200 engine was an option - some option!

I hadn't heard that.

I've never heard of the South African army wanting to use Country Buggies - sounds interesting!

I wish I could remember the reference to that I found - the order was supposed to be for 25,000. I have no idea if they were all to be built in Aus or some/all in Sth Africa (both right hand drive countries of course, so tooling would be similar).

SA had their own VW factory (still going, in Utenhage)
[/unquote]

So what are they building there now? Toyotas - like the Clayton plant here?

so I imagine that tooling would have ended up there. Instead the Country Buggy tooling went to Malaysia!

And how many did they build in Malaysia?

I might need your help actually Rob - people are encouraging me to update the Knowing Aussie VWs book, which I'm doing in my spare time. Would you be happy to proof read and check it for me as i go? I can send you a chapter at at time. I hope to start on it in a few months...

I'd be delighted to help - just let me know when.

My email address is aussiebug1970 at yahoo dot com (you know what to do).

(I don't think I have your email address any more).

Re South African Beetles. They had wide 5 wheels for years after the rest of the world changed.
Did these Beetles still have drum brakes or did they have a factory wide 5 disc???

Grey 57 wrote:Re South African Beetles. They had wide 5 wheels for years after the rest of the world changed.
Did these Beetles still have drum brakes or did they have a factory wide 5 disc???

These cars were a real mix !!! Link/king front beam with 12V swing at the rear.wide 5 drums all round. The rear drums had extra metal around the outside for cooling. I had one for 6 months before wrecking, and even then I still found surprises !!!

Well the South African VW factory is still going stong, making modern VWs as it is supposed to. You can see the details of VW's modern South African range at:

http://www.vw.co.za/

They manufacture the current Golf and the orginal Golf 1 (City Golf), as well as a wonderful Audi 5-cylinder version of the T3 Transporter. Overseas journalists cannot understand how the Australian VW plant went bust, yet the South African VW plant is still going strong.