Turbo or Super

Hey guys, i have a 2L vw engine that i cant afford to get running fast on webbers (which is my dream) so i've decided to go forced injection. Only one thing... I need to know

1) whats the beetr opion, a turbo or a superchargher
2) how much will it affect the cars performance
3) approximatly how much am i lookg at spending.

Thanks guys any info would be appriciated

this is what i found out!
with both superchargers and turbos ur wasting your time without EFI! and many superchargers are meant for larger engines so to get it running efficiently is very hard!!! another thing is overheating supercgargers create more heat then turbos so if ur gonna run anything over 7 PSI intercooler is a must.
another thing is turbos cant be setup for anything less then 2 K in which that u could nearly fit a V6 commodore engine!!!
and another thing is u will need forged pistons as cast ones will shatter
cheers
rhys

surely some webers would have to be cheaper than either a turbo or a supercharger
how much are you looking to spend?
you could try some head work and a mild cam and rejet the carbs?
marcel

forced induction and EFI aren't cheap. An intercooler is essential on any turbo setup, you only have something to gain from intercooling.

i would budget around 10k to get it running

to answer your question type82e I wish to go roughly high 13's and i am on a tight budget, so i figuered it would cost me more to try and run my VW FAST on webbers, then to smack a turbo straight on it.

Thanks for your help but can i put a turbo staright on with intercoller with it still being a daily driver.?

yeah its doable just run lower boost than you would set it up for at the track

is it easy to change?

Hi

Im using stock pistons in my turbo motor, keep it sensible and they will last.

Its not cheap but i dont think I could go back too NA after having boost.

1302Steve

Heres my thoughts, if you want fast with not a lot of money then try this
engine adaptor kitt $600 or so from sherman conversions or similar,
12A turbo injected rotary from importer {rated standard at 165 horsepower on 6 pounds boost}{{happy at 10}} $1200
microtech or similar computer to run the injection second hand $500 or near to it.
radiator from wreckers $50,
thermofan $120
The look on their face when they get their ass kicked by a beetle
"PRICELESS":o
$2470 total for main expenses, Not too bad I reckon, I had my old 12A turbo running up to 22 psi peak with water/alcohol injection {very cheap } nothing could kill that motor till I tore a radiator hose off and cooked it {REAL GOOD}, but got 2 years out of it with no dramas and when the motor was pulled down it was in great condition inside, just wouldnt hold water anymore. Happy to help with more info if you are interested.

Hi

Rotaries sure make power but the new rules which I believe are being adopted Australia wide you cant fit a turbo rotary or 13b to a beetle.

I cant remember what a 66 Beetle weighs, lets say 850 kg,
850 x 3 = 2550 cc NA
or 850 x 2.5 = 2125 cc forced induction

Also the engine capacity to be used for rotary engines is the displacement of all rotors x 2
• “Original weight” is the original (unmodified) “tare weight” of the sedan version of the vehicle model fitted
with the largest engine available for the model but without optional accessories such as air conditioning and tow bar.
• The above limits do not apply to 4WD’s, light trucks and buses up to 4.5 tonne gross vehicle mass.

1302Steve

That could be a real hassle,
A bridge port would do the trick but hard to keep quiet without losing the power and they are thirsty on fuel too.
I think thats right about the literage to weight ratio
I would go for the subaru liberty motor then, similar deal on cost similar power but it also sounds like a beetle motor a bit.
Retro tech {using late model technology in and old car}
has the distinct advantage that an engineer was paid a lot of money to design the motor to handle the output that was demanded of it, rather than an after thought, you get all the advantages of modern technology and materials.
pure economics means that a steady flow of cheap motors keep coming out of japan.
an intercooler is a bit of a hassle to mount on a bug effectively and invisably,
I would recommend reading a descent guide to turbocharging book for a good understanding of what is involved and to understand at what point an intercooler becomes an advantage rather than a disadvantage, I have seen people pour lots of money into making their car go slower with poor matching of turbo size and intercooler size to an engine, you dont want to be redlining your engine just as it comes on boost.
not to mention the more handcrafted your setup the more hassle it is if it fails when you are away from home, with retro tech you can buy the parts from any parts dealer in town.
Any way hope this helps.
cheers tony

Steve's right about the legal implications on rotors now days.
It was my mates dream to wack a 13b turbo into his old bug...

*edit coz i carnt speel too goodly :P

[Edited on 4-5-2003 by Quickbug]

If you carnt afford Carbies.... then yr wasting yr time even thinking about Injection.

yeah i'm with dave. The only reason ppl use carbies on street cars these days is because they are CHEAP and less fuss.

moonlite6t6beetle, turbocharging isn't as simple as bolting on a turbocharger and plumbing. The whole engine has to be suitable or made suitable for forced induction. Things like valve size, head work, cam selection, exhaust etc. are all essential to making a custom turbo motor.

An intercooler can be made to fit in a beetle, a used Subaru Liberty Water to Air is $650 from a jap wreckers. They're pretty smallish and intercooling will prevent pinging and make more power.

It would be cool, cheap and easy to have a rotary or EA82T or EJ20T in your bug, but after blowing someone away you cant say "its a vee dub engine" 😀

I am contemplating doing a turbo 1600 twin port,
I am not sure,
I have a 1600 tp and a turbo and I have been assured its worth the effort, {why not give it a whirl}
I guess if I have a meltdown or grenade motor then I can just get another or change my plans in the future.

WOW thanks guys, this has helped me so much.

I can build a performance engine on webbers, my budget is fit too, but i wish to go fast.... approx low 13's so i think to acheive that on webbers i am looking at about $10,000 so what i want to do is slap a $3000 turbo on it and run the same...

any thoughts?

Corey

Rhys I have to disagree with a few points.
Of course I'll be better able to comment when i'm finished my supercharger
but my research points a little different.
-
"this is what i found out! "
"with both superchargers and turbos ur wasting your time without EFI! "
A carby on a Blower will still give Big horsepower if its set up properly.
Blow through (carbies) under Turbos give excellent performance - however a blow through carb is expensive in itself.
-
" and many superchargers are meant for larger engines so to get it running efficiently is very hard!!!"
So dont get a Too Large a blower.
The blower I'm using is ideal for a 2L but i'll be using it on a 1916cc.
I dont expect any problems, I will be turning it slower and yes that does diminish the efficiency but not by much.
-
"another thing is overheating supercgargers create more heat then turbos "
No they dont. They have the advantage that the exhaust does not heat the charge like in turbos.
If the blower is Very Inefficient (like an Old Jimmy...GM or truck or old cabin blower ) then you will get huge losses within the blower which heats the air more than necessary.
Also Tubos tend to hold the exhaust heat within the motor due to the extra Back pressure they create. True Mufflers give back pressure too .
-
"so if ur gonna run anything over 7 PSI intercooler is a must. "
Tend to agree but not a Must , just advisable. if for strip then heat build up will take time - you'll get away with it.
on the street you just have to not push onto boost all the time - ( its quite hard to go on boost all time - motor will detonate after 12 secs at 250 km/hr- you know what I mean.....)
"another thing is turbos cant be setup for anything less then 2 K in which that u could nearly fit a V6 commodore engine!!!
and another thing is u will need forged pistons as cast ones will shatter
cheers "
I think Steve has answered this , his are standard pistons.
-
"rhys"
I guess it depends who you talk to and also your level of skill and determination.
If you want a Commodore then get one,
Yes its expensive to Hot up a VW motor but thats what High Performance is about.
I am going the supercharger option because it is fairly Cheap horespower, I'm doing a lot my self.
If you want Fantastic performance then I would tend toward Turbo.
But it is best design the motor for the purpose, 13sec VW will cost $$$.
But fun achieving it.

Oh did I mention that I love superchargers.
I love the sound , the Grunt , and the novelty factor,
I'm using the side draught weber as in the mock up above,
I believe that they are difficult to tune for blowers - could be some Radical emulsion tubes required.
But i know a good mechanic who has had lots of dyno experience on blowered VW's.

Oval Glen....

you have helped me so much... i want to run exactly what you are....

please e-mail me and explain to me about your supercharger ie: $$$, performance, does it come in a kit... ect

Corey

its advisable to run forged pistons, as its cheaper than buying a new motor 😀 And u can turn up the boost without too much fear 🙂

An intercooler is a benefit on any forced induction setup. It prevents detonation, increases power and reduces heat. You have your cake and eat it too! The only problem is trying to fit one, although this can be easily solved. If you have no intercooler there is nothing to soak up the heat so you will be losing power and pinging. Look at any modern turbo engine, they all run intercoolers with low pressure turbos. There is nothing to lose with an intercooler other than cost.

EFI and forced induction go hand in hand. The important thing about having efi with turbo is to be able to richen up the mixture under boost so you don't cook your engine. EFI also gives you better response when off boost. EFI isnt cheap but you gain a fair bit going to it 😀

as others have said, a 13sec street car isn't going to be cheap N/A, turbo or supercharged.

glen
im just going off what i have been told none of it i have presumed myself!! all of it was reccommended to me when i was thinkin of doing it!!
cheers
rhys

Well I have just finished supercharging my manx this weekend.... so far so good. My big claim to fame tho is the fact that i did it all for under $700. Yes thats right! I am using the s/c from a Toyota MR2 on a blow through aplication using my Holley bugspray carby. To do this I also used the blowback valve from the MR2 as well which diverts the boost back to my airbox whenever negative vacume is detected (thus protecting my carby when the butter fly is closed). Instead of a bulky intercooler I made a water injection system using a wiper washer motor and boost from the s/c to moderate the flow, this is injected directly into my manifold elimanating all detonation (with corect tuning). I did do all the machining and fabricating my self but even with this added I feel it could still be done within budget.
PS I guess my HP to be around 150-180
this is unconfermed though...only a guess

hey
can u send me photos of it? im really interested!
cheers
rhys

That sounds like a good job,
I am keen to know if that is enough horse power to make your buggy stand up on the back wheels, I guess you can see where I am going with this😀😎
I am also keen to see if the entire MR2 rear running gear would lend itself to a mad transplant,
Do you know that a 50/50 ratio of metholated spirits and water will do wonders in your water injection setup I used to run it on my old RX2 and just turn the wastegate off, went like a rocket, sadly it also turned corners and stopped like a rocket 😀:o🙁
Its also a good idea to make a circut that only allows you to run the motor when there is water in the tank because you dont get much warning when youre that high on boost, {20 psi or so} and then run out of water 🙁

MAD MANX, you have anwered alot of my prayers, but how high would your supercharger sit out of a Bug?

Mad Manx... That is Sensational.
The Toyota Blower is the Value choice.
Moonlite go for the one off the 2 L six cylinder ( Slightly larger than the 1600 one ).
I'd love to see how you did it Blow Through.
Draw through is much easier .
The system that the Toyota uses with the Electric clutch and bypass pipe is Great for street.
If I were doing it again I would go like Mad Manx.
Moonlite I will get some more info to you soon... also check out Members rides....Oval begging to be blown.

Well not having the space restrictions a beetle poses I mounted my s/c on the right hand side of the motor diagonally above the cyclinder heads. My aim was to have it as close as posible to the crank pulley but the legnth of the supercharger made that not posible with out modifying the fan housing. The other factor is that the s/c is bloody heavy so a decent mount is neaded to suport the weight and to eliminate any flexing. My aim with this car was/is to keep it as cheap as posible so be prepared to buy plenty of beer for ya mates.

This is the charger

This is the drive pulley I had machined to fit onto the crank-also the second most expensive part aside from the blower ( a carton of beer for the machining and $100 to have it balanced.)

I will have to find a pic of the blow back valve I used. By the way to reason I made a blow through set up is that the superchargers Toyota makes have resin coated rotors in them and are not designed to have fuel run throught them- Toyota uses a blow throught design (except with fuel injection) so i thought it wise to stick with their formular. And yes the s/c do have an electronic clutch on the pulley... I have mine setup so that I can turn the unit on or off with a switch on my dash witch also turns the water injection on and off as well- helps with driving through town. The whole setup is rather crude in theory but it looks good and works better. One day I will make and fit the fuel injection system i have designed- run a microtech computer or something similar.....

Good point Mad - about the rotors - I was not aware of that resin issue,
Mine is teflon tipped and i wanted to cool this down with fuel, so different " courses ".
Another plus with your Blower position is that blow through reduces the Wet Manifold Length.
I wanted some manifold for a plenum area and also for cooling the charge - but too long will give problems with fuel separation.
My blow off valve will be very simple,
Valve spring (standard ) Three studs, plate to compress the spring - pushing a disk against a hole. Aim to O-ring the disk.
Keep the blow off valve close to the blower ( this reduces the explosion).
To adjust spring tension on blow off valve . Need to pressurize manifold " with guage attached " and adjust to suit.
I aim to run 8 Lbs boost , so think I'll try 14 Lbs blow off at first.
More later.

This is what makes it all posible :thumb Its a blow back valve, came from the same Toyota I got my s/c from. Basicaly just like a cyclinder head valve inside that is moved by the lack of vacume. the little inlet at the top has a hoseconnected to a tee piece- one end going to my boost gauge the other to my inlet manifold under my carby (i used the line for vacume advance normally use on the dissy but i,m using a 009 so that worked out well). A WORD OF WARNING if u are changing distrubitors and you have an aftermarket degreed crank pulley DONT trust the markings- this mistake really ruined my day- put your motor on top dead centre first or pull the dissy cap off and hand crank your motor till its firing on cyclinder one before removing either the crank pulley or distrubitor!!! 😎

Mad, nice work. However I don't think you have 150-180HP unless you got one big mother of an engine. In fact with that much HP you would be doing low 12sec quarters. I have seen a 150HP manx do a high 12.

My mate has a rajay turbo kit on a 1600. My guess would be it has 80-90HP, the original Rajay kit was supposed to make 100HP but I don't think it is.

It goes quite well, was pretty even with my Baja when I had a 1915.

I think a jap engine conversion is the best bang for your buck.

But I do love superchargers.

[Edited on 16-5-2003 by Baja Wes]

I just got a old performance VW magazine which tells you how to modify your engine to suit a turbo which gives over 230HP for under $2k WOW.... if anyones interested in the book let me know.

Moonlite, what does it mention about pistons? Forged flat tops are what I've been told to use? This will be relevent when I up the boost on my motor.
Thanks:bounce

i'll u2u u when tonight, i am now home...