I recently bought a fixer-upper (david's 59 triple cab) and plan/hope to do most of the resto work myself. I'm fairly competent at most things I try, so I reckon I'll be OK with a welder too. 馃檪
For car body work, what is the best type of welder to buy? An arc welder or a MIG or CIG or.... what? Also, for basic body work (I pray there's no structural rust in need of fixing) what kind of power will I need? I also plan to do some sculpture (not on the car) so a welder that can do that as well would be handy.
PostModern 路
Oh, and online how-to's would be appreciated if anyone's got them bookmarked.
Thx.
Peter Leonard 路
tig's prolly the best for fine work, mig's prolly the best for speed, and bigger stuff.... (beginner here, so just MHO)
blk56 路
I would not buy a TIG no good for body repairs as they are hard to use ,expensive ,put to much heat into the steel and will destort the panels. Buy a MIG easyer to use, faster welding speed .less heat =less distortion .As for what size to buy that depends on how often you will use it and what size steel you will be welding . I have a DueMig 120amps and it will weld 4mm to 5mm thick plate ok . The only hassel is when you run flat out the duty cycle is not real good . Hope this helps :bounce
duncombemu 路
If you're in the market for a MIG (metal inhert gas) welder, then buy one that you'll 'grow' into. There's nothing worse than buying a small/cheap one and then 'out growning' it in no time. It may be a good idea to do an Adult Ed class on welding, to get past the basics. You can then tackle the job on your VW with added zeal and with confidence.
I wouldn't go 120, you'll out grow it in no time. Get some books and have a go. Go into the 'welding shop' and 'test' out theres first. When you've mastered the art of welding, well, it'll last you a lifetime.
From a master welder (well I think I am).He He He He!!!!!!
Regards,
Mark
:thumb
helbus 路
A name brand 150amp MIG is adequate for panel repairs and medium metal fabrication (gates, doghouses etc) I have had an SIP 150 for 13 years and treated it very badly and it still goes no probs.
I have used it for about 30 full rebuilds plus twice that many other repairs, so it has done quite a bit of work.
With learning to MIG, find someone who can do it, and with a couple of hours training from them you will be up and running. Practice on old panels. As long as the metal is clean, you will be surprised what you can do.
PostModern 路
Thanks gentlemen. I was thinking a 200 amp would be nice, to give a little extra grunt should I ever need it down the track, but looking at the prices... ouch!
It will primarily be for the bus restoration, so if 150 is fine... great 馃檪
I read a nice guide online, looks to me like I can learn to weld 馃檪
I have a grinder and various saws and sanders already... what else will I need for body work? A dolly kit, spray gun... or should I prime from a can and get the job finished by a pro?
splitbusaustralia 路
Well,
I reckon you canactually get by with a 130 amp. Will weld up to 3mm with full penetration and there's nothing thicker on a bus anyway....
Duty cycle? Well I find that the reduced cycle with the 130 actually MAKES you have patience. Tack wait. Tack again - wait. IF you don't wait too much heat equals big time panel distortion. Lazy cycle time equals a good job!
RobK
duncombemu 路
OK, so you 'think' you need a 130amp. The day you hand over your hard earned money, will be the day you want to weld more than 3mm steel plate.
One day and maybe soon, you'll want to weld up a set of car ramps, some car stands, fix or build a trailer, you never know.
As I said, "Buy the biggest that you can afford."
Get one that runs gas (Argon) and not those pissy little gasless spools of wire and get one with a fan.
Don't limit yourself to just being able to weld thin steel. I'm not saying that a small capacity welder won't do the job, but if you want to be a good...no a great welder, then get one that welds more than 3mm. It'll last you for many years. In other words, "Don't get a Mini to tow the caravan around Australia, and don't get a V8 to go and do the shopping." 150 amp runs hard...380 amp does a lot more and just ticks over, lasting a lot longer.
Think about it very carefully, I've been through all this before.
I just wish I'd thought longer about my past purchases, because I bought a 'little' mig120, thinking the same and wore it out in no time (running it hard) and now I've had to buy another one (380 amp), when I should of done that in the first place.
Regards,
Mark:thumb
splitbusaustralia 路
The original question DID relate to working on buses?
If you want to weld bigger you will need bigger BUT you DON'T need 380 amp to work on a bus!
Depends what you want to do with it really...look at the functionality then decide - don't go small if you need big but don't fall for 'requirement creep' if you don't ned it!
RobK
helbus 路
150 amp is big enough for any vehicle welding. You would not be wise to run any bigger through a standard power outlet.
Of very panel shop I have ever worked in none have had bigger than a 200 and most have a 175 0r 180.
Remembering these are being used a lot of the time, every day, it is easy to see how a 150 will be sufficient in a home or small workshop being used only by one person,
You can weld up to 5mm bevelled plate with a 150amp.
fatboy 路
"I read a nice guide online, looks to me like I can learn to weld "
Would you post the link so I could have a look ? cheers
BTW I dont know anything about welding but with no insult intended to dumbcombemu advice from ROBK about working on buses should be listened to
Thanks for all the advice and lively debate guys 馃檪 From what I've read in this thread and in other sites, I think I'll go for a 150 amp unit. I do have supply limitations, and don't, at this stage, want to have to install a 15 amp outlet in my carport/workshop. In about 7 years or so, I'll be rebuilding here, so that's when I'll go for 3 phase and 15 amp outlets in the workshop and can buy whatever gear I need. A bigger tool now will also mean more work moving it about and locking it up and so on as well. So long as 150 amp can do what I want and maybe a ~little~ bit more, I'll be happy.
matara 路
This is a good novice page for welding. Shows welding in a rocker on a bay window bus!
Whatever you buy see if you can stretch the budget to one of those visors that are clear when you line up & then go dark in a couple of microseconds when you arc up. It makes a huge difference to accuracy. As far a heavier stuff goes, you can get a second hand stick (arc) welder pretty cheap for "agricultural" work!
PostModern 路
I've just been offered a free "agricultural" Arc welder from a handyman in the family. I think I'll practice a fair bit with it to see if I want to trust it on my new old bus (which should be arriving in 2 days!!!!!).
splitbusaustralia 路
No don't put a stick welder anywhere
near it! (well maybe wave it at it to frighten it if you're annoyed with it)...
You do need a gas MIG for any panel
work!
RobK
duncombemu 路
I really don't know what to say!!!!!
After all the advice you've been given and you're considering, a 'stick welder'. Come on "PostModern", take all this advice and heed it. Go with the 150amp Gas MIG. Take it from me (and everyone else that's written in this forum), you can only use a MIG for panel work and never an arc welder.
Regards,
Mark
:thumb
kombi_kid 路
hey rob
whats that primer that can be applied to metal and welded over???
cheers
rhys
helbus 路
OMG turn my back for how long, and an ARC welder is mentioned.馃檨
NO panel beater or panel shop in the world (maybe Mexico) uses ARC.
Oxy welding would be more acceptable.
With gas (MIG) and gasless, there is a major difference also, and that is the polarity between the wire feed and the "earth" clamp is reversed. Dont ask me why as I am not a Physics teacher, but this alone has an effect on the useability and effectiveness of creating good quality welds on panel steel.
This is in regards to all types of panel welding. Butt, plug, lap, etc.
LOL I just reread what i wrote, and you may see what I found so funny in that last sentence. 馃榾
splitbusaustralia 路
High zinc primer also known as 'weld-thru' primer. Most auto paint suppliers have it in rattle cans but its 'out the back' and you have to ask for it specifically.
Make sure you spray it in a well ventilated area its not good for the health...good for sealing new metal that you're still working on. Don't put it on too thick in this application or when welding thru you get a green flare when the zinc goes up which can obscure your vision while welding..
Zinc rich primers are also fantastic for priming at risk metal areas like safari and pop-out window frames etc. Used a lot in the military and there's and NATO standard for this use (some like plus 60% zinc from memory). It a 'sacrificial' primer and thus protects the metal through electrolytic action.....(like sacrificial zinc blocks on steel boat hulls). I use it on ALL stuff like that - many thin coats.
Maybe not as good as powder coating (maybe it is) but the hassle with powder coating is colour matching. If you want to paint everything with the same paint/colour zinc priming these rust prone areas is the way to go.....
RobK
PostModern 路
The thing I liked about the arc was it's price 馃榾 Seeing it's been offered to me I'll keep it for "other" work when I don't want to waste argon.
Does anyone know of or use "SIP" brand welders? There's a good deal on: New 150 amp unit, wire, gas bottle, mask, for $499.
Sounds like the deal is "too good to be true". Is it?
helbus 路
SIP are OK. I have used my SIP 150 amp for 13 years and it's never stopped.
I put a medium sized wire reel in 0.8mm. as the tiny rolls were going in a day.
The handpiece feels a bit cheap, and the gas guage only shows bottle pressure not working pressure.
At that price, it is a bargain. I paid $580 for mine all those years ago. When sales tax was 22%
PostModern 路
Some stuff we found on the web basically said, "it'll be fine for a year and then you'll toss it because it'll break down and you can't get parts" or somesuch. Hopefully I won't put a year's work on it in 5 years... Hmmm. It's tough to make a purchasing decision like that in the face of conflicting reports. :\
duncombemu 路
For Gods sake.
Please make up your mind! Please put me (and everyone else) out of our misery
and buy a 150 amp MIG welder and be done with it. There is nothing that's hard to
understand.
This is it! Get a MIG. Get a 150 amp. Go get some lessons. Read some books on welding.
And finally, BE DECISIVE! 馃槧:P
Mark
PostModern 路
I have a limited budget, so i don't have the luxury of being able to buy a welder that's going to break down. I also don't have the luxury to be able to afford a $1000 welder. I want to pick the best value-for-money welder that I can afford and presently know jack shit about welders, hence me plugging away for advice. I am well aware that I need a 150 amp MIG. Did you notice my last two posts were now about a specific brand? The grain of the info I'm after is getting finer.
I don't want to go off one good review against 20 bad reviews and throw money away that I may well need to buy parts I hadn't budgeted for, as the seller of the bus I bought severely misrepresented the condition of the bus, so I'm pissed off and presently have other things to worry about.
If you're bored of the thread, please feel free not to read it any more.
Has anyone else got good things to say about SIP's?
[Edited on 15-5-2003 by PostModern]
fatboy 路
duncombemu - maybe you should change your mood to "Grumpy" 馃榾:P馃榾
duncombemu 路
fatboy, I've changed my 'Mood to, 'Grumpy'馃槧
PostModern,
Why don't you borrow a MIG until you master the skills and can afford to buy a good quality one, that will last for years.
See, I'm not 'grumpy' all the time.
:kiss
Regards,
Mark
fatboy 路
LOL馃榾
PostModern 路
If I knew someone who had one, I would. Like me, most of my friends are IT geeks. I'll just buy a SIP cheapy for now and sell it at a loss if/when I upgrade.
duncombemu 路
PostModern. Great! You've made your mind up and that's good. Please if you want any advice, then you've only got to ask. But, then only listen to the ones who know what they're talking about, when it comes to 'welding advice'. You've done well!!!!!
Regards,
Mark:thumb
PostModern 路
Yeah well, good on you duncombemu. Now I can forget about the tool's specs and begin learning how to replace the sliding window channels on a splitty's doors, how to remanufacture the fixed window frames, etc....
helbus 路
Some stuff we found on the web basically said, "it'll be fine for a year and then you'll toss it because it'll break down and you can't get parts" or somesuch. Hopefully I won't put a year's work on it in 5 years... Hmmm. It's tough to make a purchasing decision like that in the face of conflicting reports.
If this is what someone said about an SIP Migmate I am surprised. SIP are a MIG componenet manufacturer, so it would be in their interest to make parts available. I have looked at new ones, and they still use the same cheap handpiece. I still have mine after 13 years.
Did you know that if your handpiece wears out, and you need a new inner liner, you can get an adapter and fit a Kemmpi handpiece instead.
If you dont physically abuse your machine, it should last for at least 10 years.
Yes I agree a 180 amp CIG, Kemmpi, Esab, or a Fronius would be fantastic, but realistically they are upwards from $1000 to $2500. They are real tough units designed for everyday business work, driven hard to make profits.
You need facts, not hearsay from people who don't even own a MIG, or have only ever used one that was a dud due to poor maintenance.
A 150A will actually weld up to 6mm plate according to the specs.
Try the SIP Coppermate if you think the Migmate is a baby - It is 170amp with proper quality handpiece same as CIG. 10 year warranty on transformer. welds up to 10mm according to specs. It has 150 amps at 25% duty cycle.
I see now that the comment was posted by a retailer of the competition's product. Why are they so cheap then?
[Edited on 15-5-2003 by PostModern]
Herbie 路
All you need to do is find a shop that sells welders and has a glass shop front. Order the best welder you can think of and when it gets there inspect it in the middle of the floor in the late afternoon, tell the guy your wrapped with it and will be back later to pick it up.
That night take a ute and back it through the glass doors and load it into the back of the ute and clear off with a clear concience because you told the truth and you did come back later and pick it up 馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾
problem solved, or hire one from kennards or the like, I got myself a stick welder from bunnings for $70 and it works great with fine sticks, but I usually use the mig I borrow from my uncle as its so easy. but the cheap stick is a good option if youre on a tight budget.馃槑
Cheers tony
PostModern 路
Thanks for the laugh Herbie. I haven't really smiled since my bus arrived (I knew it would have some rust... but it has RUST).... Given the amount of work it'll need, buying the SIP will prove a good investment over hiring. I reckon it'll pay for itself.
kombi_kid 路
hey
we just bout a 175 amp lincon MIG havent used it yet but will see how she goes!
cheers
rhys
kombi_kid 路
hey
we just bout a 175 amp lincoln MIG havent used it yet but will see how she goes!
cheers
rhys
70AutoStik 路
Don't want to be argumentative, Postmodern, but you sure you just didn't misunderstand what a '59 would be like in any reasonable condition? Think about what you bought before spreading such stories.
(I have no idea of the condition of the vehicle and do not know the seller - but if you, an IT person, think you can handle the restoration, it must be in bloody good condition for it's age.)
PostModern 路
70AutoStik wrote:Don't want to be argumentative, Postmodern, but you sure you just didn't misunderstand what a '59 would be like in any reasonable condition? Think about what you bought before spreading such stories.
(I have no idea of the condition of the vehicle and do not know the seller - but if you, an IT person, think you can handle the restoration, it must be in bloody good condition for it's age.)
Condition is listed as "3": Which means:
"3 - Good - Presentable inside and out with some signs of wear. Not detailed but very clean. Body should be straight and solid with no apparent rust and absolutely no rust-through anywhere. Shiny, attractive paint but may have evidence of minor fading or checking or other imperfections. Runs and drives well. May need some minor mechanical or cosmetic work but is fully usable and enjoyable as is."
I say no more. I don't know that the misrepresentation was deliberate, but there's no way it is "drivable". david assured me the vehicle could be driven from Albury to Wollongong if I fitted the front windows and dealt with the steering lock. I was prepared for a restoration job, but NOT of the magnitude it requires. The pictures supplied must be 4 years old at best.
Anyway, you are right, this thread is not the place to deal with this.
[Edited on 19-5-2003 by PostModern]
fatboy 路
Whats being an IT person got to do with it ?
A recent poll here showed that a lot of members work in IT.
How would you like it if I said "Well if a religious person can do it then it must be in good condition for its year".
馃槧
PostModern 路
Ah look, let's not start a war over this. I concede that I made a mistake in buying the vehicle site unseen. I trusted another to rate his vehicle fairly and leapt into the purchase without waiting for further pics (despite asking for them several times, they never came).... my fault for being trusting and having a non-restorer's definition of the word "drivable". Now when I get in contact with david, who is presently OS, I'm sure we'll work something out.
In the meantime, this thread is about welders...
I saw my neighbours CIG 170 Amp unit on the weekend. Very nice.
fatboy 路
Hey PM - as an IT person you must agree, it's a bit ironic that your going to have to reinstall Windows 馃榾:P馃榾
PostModern 路
fatboy wrote:Hey PM - as an IT person you must agree, it's a bit ironic that your going to have to reinstall Windows 馃榾:P馃榾
馃檪
Heh, yeah. Can't blame Bill Gates for this one tho.
To use another computer analogy, if I bought a 286 that wouldn't boot, I'd not bother fixing it. Things are a bit different in the vintage car world, but this thing is getting ready to lend its parts to keep other classics on the road. Next step is "splitty-ing" it up :\
Unless someone else wants to save it?
helbus 路
To use another computer analogy, if I bought a 286 that wouldn't boot, I'd not bother fixing it.
Duh. What's a 286?
Some fix cars and others fix PC's, but it seems we need each other. Yeah?
PostModern 路
Yeah, I guess.
(A 286 was about the second or third series of "PC's" as we know them. 4-8Mhz or something).
Anyway, I've formulated a plan for this bus. It has a lot of "if"s in it.
If it runs AND if the brake system, suspension and tranny are not totally stuffed, I'm going to rat-look the body, using the money I save on paint in the interior. Rust etc will obviously need to be cut out and welded, so I'll go ahead with that and just leave it in primer... maybe clearcoated primer??? I might even weld in a new cargo floor if I can find one.... the "little bit of rust" I was promised came in abundance. I need to inspect the frame. If it's sound, and as I said the mechanicals are good, I'll go the hard route and custom-resto the old beast. If not, it's parts and crusher for her.
fatboy 路
Have you thought about POR15 Hardnose topcoat it will brush on and (Hopefully) look good at a cost of about $400.
I intend to do this with my bay.
It would be a shame for this bus not to be back on the road.
PostModern 路
fatboy wrote:Have you thought about POR15 Hardnose topcoat it will brush on and (Hopefully) look good at a cost of about $400.
I intend to do this with my bay.
It would be a shame for this bus not to be back on the road.
I agree. It is a classic. If there is structural rust, I won't be donating my time to rescue it tho.
I also don't want to spend $20K restoring something to have it look ratty. I was planning on brush painting the interior with gloss black Kill Rust. The floor will need heaps of patching, but I'll get all the rust and just rubber mat and carpet over it. It won't be the smooth cruisin machine I had in mind, but it should turn out cool(ish) anyway.
Does anyone know if there are cargo floor cuts or aftermarket panels anywhere?
[Edited on 22-5-2003 by PostModern]
kombi_kid 路
try rob king aka splitbusaustralia for cargo floors or try harding european
cheers
rhys
PostModern 路
I'll be starting a member's ride thread.
type82e 路
just a question
the triple cab is something someones made up i guess cutting down a full bus?
its just ive never seen one before
marcel