They're a bit s l o w down there in Blacktown........'bout time:P
pete wood ·
I might be slow, but at least I don't play the banjo with all SIX fingers. 🤓
Now I'm off to steal some broken washing machines...which reminds me. Someone graffitied my letter box this morning! And he couldn't spell either. Wrote "TRID". I think he meant "trip". That's how slow they are round here! What is the world coming too? 🙄
aussiebaja ·
now youll just have to be carefull that you dont come down too hard on the front in case the radiator hits
pete wood ·
nope, the beam will bit the ground before the radiator does.
sand kombi ·
Yeah, but what about all sand, dirt, rocks and stuff, when the beam digs into the ground.
pete wood ·
don't worry, it will be getting a bash plate underneath it to prevent them getting in. Also, I'l be putting some panels on the sides to stop things being flung in behind the radiator by the front wheels. 😉
a number of people on here have radiators in the front of the buggies. more still have radiators UNDER their buses and they have no dramas.
cram ·
Its really cleaned up the back end...plus a few more kgs in the front which can't be a bad thing. Good move!
ricola ·
That looks much better Pete 🙂 I bet it even works too!
pete wood ·
With the radiator and ducting on the back and the decklid covering it there was 20kg of weight at the furthest rear point of the car. That was without the water, which I estimate at another 5kg or so. That weight is now forward of the front beam by 2 inchs. So yes I'm looking forward to an improvement in handling. Next up the battery will move forward as well. Probably into the passenger side footwell. that should help balance 97kg of driver on the other side of the car. I really need to do some more bike riding and drink less Corona. :o
pete wood ·
next question....
How cool is safe?
the new setup works so well that it won't warm up properly. Even today (26deg outside) sitting in traffic, it only got up over 75deg once and when we got going it went back down to 70 and stayed there. On friday, I drove along the M4 for 10 minutes at 90km/h in 3rd gear @ 4000rpm and it struggled to get up to 70degs.
So How can I get it to warm up?
I don't mind it running cool, but I worry about the oil working properly at such a low temp.
Just so you know, the thermostat is rated at 76deg and now has a 8mm hole where the flipper valve was.
Ay ideas? Should I run different oil? Do I need a hotter thermostat? Is 65deg ok for long periods?
[ Edited on 12-4-07 by pete wood ]
1303Steve ·
Hi Peter
Do you have an oil temp gauge? Cool oil is the motor killer. Maybe you need to go back to a undrilled stock thermostat. I had very small hole in my WBX one to help prevent airlocks, much smaller than 8 mm. So pull thermostat out and put a pop rivet in the hole that you have, then drill the smallest hole that you can manageand try that.
Failing this you could try blanking some off the radiator face off after you have finished making the bash panels etc.
Steve
pete wood ·
I don't have an oil temp guage. how small was the hole in your old thermostat?
Baja Wes ·
Brad normally advises a bigger than normal hole to assist with bleeding the air out of the system with the front radiator set-up, 8mm or smaller hole.
Where is the temp sender? Is it the normal EJ unit?
What thermostat does it have? Did you put a cooler thermostat in it when you had the overheating problems?
When you let it sit and idle, does the thermo come on?
If the thermo doesn't come on I will be amazed. Sitting still the thermo should eventually come on. It takes a while for it to come on in my car, but it will always come on.
What temp does the thermo come on?
Is your heater loop open or closed?
pete wood ·
Baja Wes wrote:Brad normally advises a bigger than normal hole to assist with bleeding the air out of the system with the front radiator set-up, 8mm or smaller hole.
Where is the temp sender? Is it the normal EJ unit?
aftermarket in the same place as the EJ unit. Works ok. I don't think the guage is the issue.
What thermostat does it have? Did you put a cooler thermostat in it when you had the overheating problems?
The thermostat is the stocker for this motor. It reads 76deg on it. I replaced it when I built the car with a new one, but it's the same model as the oldy.
When you let it sit and idle, does the thermo come on?
If the thermo doesn't come on I will be amazed. Sitting still the thermo should eventually come on. It takes a while for it to come on in my car, but it will always come on.
What temp does the thermo come on?
Yes, the thermos come on, but it takes a long time. Like half an hour or so just sitting and idling. I've set the switch on the thermos to come on when the temp guage reads 90degs. It's only reached this temp while sitting still. Once you are driving, it won't get hot, even in traffic.
Is your heater loop open or closed?
The heater is an open loop setup. It's always circulating, but I have an extra loop the heat is hooked into and a tap that allows the water to circulate in that loop. Look at my heater post and you'll see what I mean.
I can't believe this in a way, I've spent so many years bitching about it getting hot and not cooling and now I have the opposite problem. I think the problem is the sheer mass of water in the new system. It takes a long time to heat it all and the long side pipes shed heat all on there own. I've seriously thought about covering them in lagging to help the issue. It's all so dumb. You have to laugh I guess.
Baja Wes ·
Usually things don't work for weird reasons.
76 deg is pretty cool, mine is 82deg (although not a suby). 76 is what it is going to try to keep the water temp at.
I would be suprised if you could overcool a car using the water flowing through an 8mm hole. Was the thermostat gasket still ok, you didn't damage it in the drilling process?
The other option is the gauge or sending is playing up. Terry's car said it was overheating at one stage, but it was just a dodgy gauge / sender. Your guage could have always been reading 10 degrees low (meaning it used to be really hot).
It may be something weird and unexpected. Just yesterday I saw a car that had an alternator that wouldn't work. It turned out the powder coated alternator brackets were preventing the alternator from earthing to the engine block....
[ Edited on 10-4-2007 by Baja Wes ]
pete wood ·
I've got a mate who's a fridgy who's got a special laser thingo, I'll borrow that and test it with that, but the pipes don't feel very hot either, so I think the guage is right. 🙁
New thermostat time I think.
MickH ·
If you replace the thermostat.....use a GENUINE one and make sure it is installed the right way...the wax goes to the inside closest to the recirculation/bypass line.
pete wood ·
ok mate, I think it's installed that way at the mo. can't sure if it's a genuine one though.
Baja Wes ·
if you use an IR gun to measure the temp (or other surface method) just remember the water temp will be hotter than any outer surface temps.
Aluminium conducts quite well so the outside temp will be similar but still slightly colder than the water inside. Rubber hoses will be colder on the outside.
Craig Torrens ·
just drive it harder, and rev the ring out of it:P
ricola ·
An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, you may as well not have one! Get a stock one back in and let it do it's job of controlling the engine temperature.. If you need better bleeding do it some other way, with extra bleeds or something..
Rich
Brad ·
ricola wrote:An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
Can you explain why this is so ??
The purpose of the hole is to stop the air blockage they will often get without it. I can happily say from experience that an 8mm hole will not make it useless. I am guessing from your comment you have of course run an 8mm hole in an EJ series thermostat and found that it was useless because you also ran it without a thermostat at all and it was the same as one with an 8mm hole it it ... yeah ??
If not you would be basing your comment on what exactly ??
Ok back to the issue at hand..
75 is to cool, get an 82 one for it, as Mick H said only get a Subaru on and not an aftermarket one. If you system bleeds up ok put it in with the hole and see how it goes. As I said before the hole is to allow the air to get through.
The EJ has a thermostat bypass which is much greater than 8mm which allows the coolant to move through the system all the time even when it is shut, funnily enough through the heater core which you are already aware of.
I am guessing from your post that your ECU does not control the thermo fan ?? If this is the case, why ?? I would change it back as the ECU is much better at is than a Davies Craig temp prob and variable resistor.
The subi likes to run around the 85 degree mark. Best way to check this is with your ECU controlled thermo. This comes on at 86 degrees so you can see what your gauge says when it comes on and it gives you a good indication of what calibration it is. The ECU temp sender is right next to the gauge one.
In Short replace your thermostat… from memory you have had your EJ hot a few times so it is probably stuffed by now anyway.
ElusiveStranger ·
Buggy Brad wrote:The subi likes to run around the 85 degree mark. Best way to check this is with your ECU controlled thermo. This comes on at 86 degrees so you can see what your gauge says when it comes on and it gives you a good indication of what calibration it is. The ECU temp sender is right next to the gauge one.
That could depend on your specs, VSS calibrated for wheel size...
Not too sure what your Scooby specs are over there but I posted this scan from a 2002 Impreza manual. It's the 2l NA model.
I could go on and babble useless information,but I wont:alien. Pete,get the 82 degree one as Brad has said.You don't run A/C and excessive loads so the cooler thermostat isn't required. When my Kombi was converted it had been installed with both an outlet temperature sender of the water returning to the radiator and an inlet temperature sender,the water returning to MAINTAIN the engine temperature,from the radiator. The difference between the 2 temperatures,when hot and at operating temperature was about 10 degrees. I also had an 8mm hole in my genuine thermostat and had no dramas. With your setup,now being more efficient than it previously was I would do as has been suggested, a new hotter thermostat. My buggy has an 8mm hole in the thermostat as well...and it heats up fine:P Aren't you glad I didn't babble on...:jesus
ElusiveStranger....the chart doesn't factor in wheel spin...... do you really drive at under 100kmh?????? Strange...:beer
[ Edited on 12-4-07 by MickH ]
Brad ·
the 2002 N/A is an OBD2 so the ECU has muliple settings for the thermo fan. Most OBD1 EJ's like Pete's only have one setting, although some of them have two, usually when you mod the loom you join them togeather so they both turn the fan on although only the lower 85 deg one is really used.
From what I have read / played with they VSS has no input on the OBD1's. The OBD2's are heaps cooler and have a lot more adjustment compaired to the OBD1/
ricola ·
Buggy Brad wrote:
ricola wrote:An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
Can you explain why this is so ??
The heater is part of the bypass circuit, which is a smaller volume of coolant that is used until the engine gets up to operating temperature, the size of this bypass is irrelevant as it is seperated from the main radiator and pipe volume. If you put a big hole in the thermostat you effectively have the complete circuit of coolant to warm up. Most engine wear is on the warm up (not to mention more fuel) and if you have all this extra volume to warm up before the engine is at its optimum operating temperature it will obviously take much longer and result in more wear.
The key is to get the thermostat bulb to see a good flow of the bypass circuit so it can do its job of regulating the engine temperature, drilling a hole in it stops it doing its job of getting the engine up to operating temperature as quickly as possible.
In hot climates you may not register such a big difference, as the coolant temperature increase will be relatively smaller. In cold climates you get cold coolant on the other side of the thermostat, together with heat removed from the bypass by the heater, so it always sees a lag of the real engine temperature. I had this problem on my last EJ20t powered car. A lot of people also have problems when using engines with return mounted thermostats in the middle or rear of the car, a thermostat mounted to the outlet is a good fix for this and is what I plan to do on my WRX karmann cabrio.. Another fix is to space out the thermostat and direct to it a better bypass flow, some vanagon guys in Canada sell a kit for this which apparently works very well.
ElusiveStranger ·
MickH wrote:ElusiveStranger....the chart doesn't factor in wheel spin...... do you really drive at under 100kmh?????? Strange...:beer
I'll have a beer, cheers! 😀
My VSS runs from the front wheel, the fan kicks in when I pop the wheels up 😉 (I had to install the VSS as my Ign kept cutting out on a constant throttle setting)
pete wood ·
To whom it may concern,
I owe Brad a massive apology. I have inadvertantly made him look like an idiot when he was only trying to help me with his experience and expertize.
I publicly ask brad's forgiveness. I'm very sorry his advice and my comments were taken out of context and that his business has been brought into a bad light because of this. I have had nothing but positive experiences with COR and I rang him for his advice precisely because of this.
To all the guys arguing with him, please stop. He has built lots of EJ powered cars and has hours of experience.
I don't know exactly why my car is not warming up as intended, but whatever the problem is, it's not Brad's fault.
I think the problem has to do with lower temps in Sydney and an extra long heater circuit in my car.
Again, I say, Brad please accept my sincerest apologies.
Pete :blush
tassupervee ·
Buggy Brad wrote:
ricola wrote:An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
Can you explain why this is so ??
The purpose of the hole is to stop the air blockage they will often get without it. I can happily say from experience that an 8mm hole will not make it useless. I am guessing from your comment you have of course run an 8mm hole in an EJ series thermostat and found that it was useless because you also ran it without a thermostat at all and it was the same as one with an 8mm hole it it ... yeah ??
If not you would be basing your comment on what exactly ??
Ummm...........well actually, I actually fully agree with Ricola.
Back in the V6 Capri days, we were chasing overheating issues and tried this approach after being advised to, along with the nafarious practise of removing the thermostat altogether!!! Which BTY, caused the engine to overheat even further!! And experimented with different sized and number of holes in the thermostat flange ranging from a single 3mm and up to many 6mm holes around the flange.
Basically, it all achieved nothing apart from causing the engine to run too cold when not run hard, say, down long hills and experience very wide and savage temp variations and seriously slowed the engine from initial heating up.
However, it did make filling the system pretty foolproof!!!
This is because so much of the water pressure differential, created by a closed thermostat, necessary to force the water thru the internal bypass system, including a heater core, was lost.
The water made its way along the path of least resistance which was the holes in the thermostat and went out into the radiator, introducing relatively cold water into an already cold engine, rather than forcing water around and around the engine sans radiator making warmup a really looooong process. The heater didnt work properly either after that.
Air only requires a suprisingly small orifice to bleed thru and a single 3mm hole right at the top of the flange is more than adequate to allow air to pass by that point without compromising the operation of the thermostat.
The operation of filling/bleeding the system out becomes a little more complicated and time consuming to get right but the results are well worth it in terms of faster warmup and less variation in water temps whilst running along with a fucking hot heater!!.
Careful attention to the setup of a de-airation/header tank will just about cure any air issues in the system regardless of the positioning of the radiator.
Ford, for one, solved the drama of a radiator below the top of the water system a long time ago.
L8tr
E
baybuscamperkid ·
pete wood wrote:next question....
How cool is safe?
the new setup works so well that it won't warm up properly. Even today (26deg outside) sitting in traffic, it only got up over 75deg once and when we got going it went back down to 70 and stayed there. On friday, I drove along the M4 for 10 minutes at 90km/h in 3rd gear @ 4000rpm and it struggled to get up to 70degs.
So How can I get it to warm up?
I don't mind it running cool, but I worry about the oil working properly at such a low temp.
Just so you know, the thermostat is rated at 76deg and now has a 8mm hole where the flipper valve was.
Ay ideas? Should I run different oil? Do I need a hotter thermostat? Is 65deg ok for long periods?
[ Edited on 12-4-07 by pete wood ]
have you looked for something as simple as a faulty thermostat that is sticking open? i also agree with what many are saying that the thermostat does seem mightly low open temp, I am sure mine was about 85+
pete wood ·
I'll pull it out and test it, but as Brad said, I think I need a new one anyway.
ratbug ·
I'll have a beer, cheers! 😀
My VSS runs from the front wheel, the fan kicks in when I pop the wheels up 😉 (I had to install the VSS as my Ign kept cutting out on a constant throttle setting)
I got the same things happening on the dyno, as it wasnt spinning the front wheels in which the VSS is connected. Check engine light came on, then 2nd pass it cut out, so had to reset it.
P.S. Pete.. get rid of the hole!
ElusiveStranger ·
Cheers Ratbug, wouldn't have thought about that - noted!
ricola ·
Have you sorted the problem Pete?
Rich
GeorgeL ·
ricola wrote:...A lot of people also have problems when using engines with return mounted thermostats in the middle or rear of the car, a thermostat mounted to the outlet is a good fix for this and is what I plan to do on my WRX karmann cabrio..l.
This seems like a natural solution, and it still mystifies me why Subaru used a thermostat on the cold side of the system. It seems pretty Rube Goldberg to have to add plumbing from the hot side of the engine simply to supply a signal to the thermostat.
Anyone know of any logical advantage to the Subaru way of doing things? It doesn't seem to be too much trouble to add an in-line thermostat housing to the coolent outlet, but I don't want to overlook something that would damage the engine.
George
[ Edited on 23-4-2007 by Baja Wes ]
MickH ·
GeorgeL wrote:
ricola wrote:...A lot of people also have problems when using engines with return mounted thermostats in the middle or rear of the car, a thermostat mounted to the outlet is a good fix for this and is what I plan to do on my WRX karmann cabrio..l.
This seems like a natural solution, and it still mystifies me why Subaru used a thermostat on the cold side of the system. It seems pretty Rube Goldberg to have to add plumbing from the hot side of the engine simply to supply a signal to the thermostat.
Anyone know of any logical advantage to the Subaru way of doing things? It doesn't seem to be too much trouble to add an in-line thermostat housing to the coolent outlet, but I don't want to overlook something that would damage the engine.
George
Subaru have done this to ensure the operating temperature of the engine is uniform throughout the engine....not "some" of the engine running cooler. A more even operating temperature throughout the entire engine will lead to longer life due to better engineering practise and more uniform operating temperature.This is proved by the long life and more even wear characteristics of their engines. They use the thermostat to regulate the engine temperature,not the water temperature going out of the engine,which is the case with most other engine manufacturers. It actually makes good sense if you want a very uniform operating temperature of the engine.
[ Edited on 23-4-2007 by Baja Wes ]
pete wood ·
I just went looking for a thermostat at my local parts shop. Neither of the two high quality aftermarket suppliers make an 85deg thermostat for an EJ motor. That includes EJ20s and everything else. They are all 77deg. Mick are you sure your thermostat comes in at 85deg and not 77deg?
Otherwise I guess I have to ring expensaru and buy a genuine one, but I'd rather not. 🙄
MickH ·
82 degrees..genuine Subaru.The outlet water temp will be slightly higher,as the water has been through the motor.
pete wood ·
Just rang subaru at Parramatta. the geniune one is $4 cheaper than the aftermarket :duh who'd have picked that eh?
the guy couldn't tell me the temp, but they have a few in stock so I'll swing by and have a look at one later on in the week.
pete wood ·
subaru won't sell me one without a chassis No...which I don't have.
All the aftermarket jobs are 78degs.
Mick is there any chance you could get one and post it to me? I'll send you some cash.
1303Steve ·
Hi Peter
I had the same trouble when talking to Subaru about parts for my motor. I called the head office and they were able to give me the VIN that lined up with my engine number. My motor is a local motor, not a JDM.
Steve
pete wood ·
mine's an import so I'm stuffed! :cry
ratbug ·
pete wood wrote:subaru won't sell me one without a chassis No...which I don't have.
All the aftermarket jobs are 78degs.
Mick is there any chance you could get one and post it to me? I'll send you some cash.
I get asked for the chassis number as well, but when i explain that its an import motor, and its going in a VW they still help me out. I guess they don't want to sell you the wrong thing and be held reponsible, but it is only a simple thermostat. I was in there buying things like crankcase bolts. I would take the old parts in, and go through it on the screen that shows the exploded engine and then pick the bits and match them up.
MickH ·
pete wood wrote:subaru won't sell me one without a chassis No...which I don't have.
All the aftermarket jobs are 78degs.
Mick is there any chance you could get one and post it to me? I'll send you some cash.
I'm outa action for a week or 2. Think outside the square kohi....go to a carpark where you will find a 2.5 Subaru woteva and either ask the owner for their VIN number or get it off the rego sticker.The thermostats were not different in the 2.5 engines just because they were an import,they will be the same. If not able to do that go to Subaru dealer (personally) and TELL them you need a thermostat for a 2.5 motor in an engine transplant car or something.If they don't help you it would mean they don't like you or you will never be able to get parts for your engine again as you don't have the magic number.......which is not a good thing as the original timing belts are also cheaper than aftermarket items. Failing that I can ring up and get the part number you need...:jesus
1303Steve ·
Hi Peter
Take the car down to Subaru spare parts department, I'm sure that they would get a kick out seeing it. I know when I told the local Subaru dealer what I was doing they got very enthused.
Sometimes these parts guys need just need a little encouragement, surely it cant be that hard to compare the part numbers between different models.
Steve
pete wood ·
wwwwwwooooooo hooooooooooo!!!!!!!!! I FOUND ME ONE!!!!:bounce
Huge thanx to Bruce @ Subaru who put me onto the Subaru Parts warehouse guys who checked the part for me. :kiss
It had us all stuffed, but now I know the part no. and that the thermostat actually exists. I was beginning to wonder. The interesting thing is that Subaru installs 78deg thermostats in all of there cars. The other part no. only came up by accident. I'll post the part no. later.
pete wood ·
Here is the part No.
Part No. 21210AA080 - 82deg thermostat and gasket for all EJ engines (EJ18-25) 1993-98.
pete wood ·
picked it up today. new thermostat is now in....$46 later. now all I have to do is bleed up the system. 🤪
MickH ·
pete wood wrote:picked it up today. new thermostat is now in....$46 later. now all I have to do is bleed up the system. 🤪
.....just drill a hole to help the air bleed out...........:P
From memory,the Aust delivered cars were fitted with aircon as standard,hence the cooler thermostat. Ring a parts dealer overseas in your "spare" time and ask about the thermostat part number that you were given..most likely matches a chassis number for a car not factory fitted with aircon. Make sure you put it in with the bead closest to the water recirculation point.:beer
MikeM ·
pete wood wrote:Here is the part No.
Part No. 21210AA080 - 82deg thermostat and gasket for all EJ engines (EJ18-25) 1993-98.
picked it up today. new thermostat is now in....$46 later. now all I have to do is bleed up the system.
Below is the Part No. for Aussie Delivered factory EJ22 parts. I bought a set last month from City Subaru in Brisbane, No Chassis #'s, just walked in with a part #'s.
Mike, that is the 78deg thermostat you have there. It's $20 cheaper than the 82deg one and a whole heap easier to get.
TristanJ ·
Along the same lines as this post I have a question. My suby powered bus is using a shitload of fuel, and one thing I notice is how long it takes to heat up. It also never runs in the 90+ temp range. Does anyone out there know at what temperature the computer stops the 'cold start' program which I imagine 'richens' up the air/fuel ratio.
My thought is because I run a very large radiator mounted on my bullbar and I too drilled a hole in my thermostat there may be a possibility i may be in constant warm up mode.
GeorgeL ·
TristanJ wrote:Along the same lines as this post I have a question. My suby powered bus is using a shitload of fuel, and one thing I notice is how long it takes to heat up. It also never runs in the 90+ temp range. Does anyone out there know at what temperature the computer stops the 'cold start' program which I imagine 'richens' up the air/fuel ratio.
My thought is because I run a very large radiator mounted on my bullbar and I too drilled a hole in my thermostat there may be a possibility i may be in constant warm up mode.
That is very likely. If you have a big radiator it doesn't take much flow to overcool the engine. Ask anyone who runs an auto-based engine in a powerboat!
One idea I've seen is to remove the inlet thermostat and put a thermostat in an in-line housing at the engine's coolent outlet. This turns the system into a conventional system where the thermostat senses the temperature at the outlet.
Do you have the bypass hooked up? You might get good results by simply going back to the stock subaru thermostat.
TristanJ ·
I think I will put a pop rivet in the hole and just see where that gets me first as I have the heater circuit connected (looped back on itself) and if it starts opening and closing erratically I can just drill it back out again. I guess changing the position of the thermostat is really not justified unless I know whether my fuel consumption is linked to lower temp. When the engine eventually warms up, it runs above 80 degrees, so unless the car is still in warm up mode above this temp?
Any comments appreciated.
I still think I should take the radiator off the bullbar and install two boxter rads either side of the engine bay (just to fire the debate up again...).
ian.mezz ·
I have a Subaru turbo in my bug and I run a little single core Radiator that is lucky to be half the size of the stock Subaru one , my temp is good. I tried to have the same amount of water in my bug cooling system as the Subaru
if you have some big radiator u could cover some part over.
ian.mezz ·
I think some peoples Radiators are just to big
GeorgeL ·
Well, if you have a good temperature gauge the easiest way to figure out what is going on is simply to block the radiator with cardboard. Keep a close eye on the temps and if they get too high open the radiator up a bit more.
I think that most of the problems that people have with the Subaru system relate to the heater feedback loop. The Subaru heater core is much smaller than any that we might use to heat our buses and therefore doesn't lower the temperature of the feedback coolant as ,much. Oversizing the radiator itself might also contribute to temperature cycling.
The ultimate solution seem to be Tom Sheil's housing that separates the heater return from the feedback loop:
He claims that this allows the engine to run continuously at 96C regardless of radiator return temperature.
TristanJ ·
Just looking at Tom's adapter, it occurred to me to put a T piece in the hose which connects to the steel barb (looking at Tom's photo in the link contained prev post) to the right of his adapter in the original housing which by my reckoning is the same point in the cavity above the thermostat. A lot cheaper than US70 bucks plus shipping. Comments?
TristanJ ·
Please all disregard my last post, actually understanding the operation of the adapter rather than skim-reading does wonders. Apologies.
Joel ·
I'm not gonna profess to being a guru on these engines given the short amount of time ive been playing with them but setting up my cooling system has given me a fair idea of how they work
basically if the cooling system is setup as per the good DR subaru's original design they wont overcool
with the 'stat being on the inlet side of the engine theres no such thing as an oversized radiator.
you could have a bloody big detroit diesel raditator with a cessna prop blowing through it and it still wouldnt over cool
the engine just keeps circulating the water around itself internally via the heater loop totally bypassing the radiator and will do that untill such times as the it gets hot enough to open the 'stat.
All that happens then is the waterpump "sips" cooler water from the radiator supply
the bigger that rad the more reserve there is for it
this is all dependant ofcoarse on the original heaterloop working right and the stat not having holes bleeding cooler water passed it
but as Ian says they dont need a big radiator anyway
mines been running all over town this arvo with the temp being 39.8c and even in stop go traffic it sat around 85-90 mark and the fan didnt come on once and its only a little 1.5L mazda radiator
it has a stock genuine subi stat with no holes drilled in it and only takes about 1-2kms to get upto temp
pete wood ·
the missing link in all this "why does it stay cool question" is mostly likely the amount of heat the long radiator piping sheds as you drive along. see the steel pipes act as a very ineffient core with a fairly significant surface area. I won't do the maths, but I reckon it would be like adding about 1/2 and extra core to your rad. My car struggles to get over 90 except on very hot days in traffic and sits on about 91deg on a +35deg day on the free way. That's only about 1deg hotter than a day in the 20s. Fans come on at 92deg or so in traffic, but not for long.
ian.mezz ·
pete wood wrote:the missing link in all this "why does it stay cool question" is mostly likely the amount of heat the long radiator piping sheds as you drive along. see the steel pipes act as a very ineffient core with a fairly significant surface area. I won't do the maths, but I reckon it would be like adding about 1/2 and extra core to your rad. My car struggles to get over 90 except on very hot days in traffic and sits on about 91deg on a +35deg day on the free way. That's only about 1deg hotter than a day in the 20s. Fans come on at 92deg or so in traffic, but not for long.
that's how the fans should work if it comes on at 92 that means thr temp should run below that, hold your hand on the radiator 90 isn't cool, I have cars running in my work shop for 20/30 mins and fans don't come on, I normally have to hold the revs at3000 to get the fan to cycle and then like you say it only comes on for a very short time.
TristanJ ·
Joel wrote:I'm not gonna profess to being a guru on these engines given the short amount of time ive been playing with them but setting up my cooling system has given me a fair idea of how they work
basically if the cooling system is setup as per the good DR subaru's original design they wont overcool
with the 'stat being on the inlet side of the engine theres no such thing as an oversized radiator.
you could have a bloody big detroit diesel raditator with a cessna prop blowing through it and it still wouldnt over cool
the engine just keeps circulating the water around itself internally via the heater loop totally bypassing the radiator and will do that untill such times as the it gets hot enough to open the 'stat.
All that happens then is the waterpump "sips" cooler water from the radiator supply
the bigger that rad the more reserve there is for it
this is all dependant ofcoarse on the original heaterloop working right and the stat not having holes bleeding cooler water passed it
but as Ian says they dont need a big radiator anyway
mines been running all over town this arvo with the temp being 39.8c and even in stop go traffic it sat around 85-90 mark and the fan didnt come on once and its only a little 1.5L mazda radiator
it has a stock genuine subi stat with no holes drilled in it and only takes about 1-2kms to get upto temp
Theoretically I really tend to agree with you on this one. When I drilled the hole in my thermostat it was not for the reason of bleeding air, but for the reason of stopping the thermostat slamming open and shut, open and shut as it sensed the cold water and reacted to it. Kind of a smoothing hole. I drilled it under the advice of a V8 supercar engine builder, and have never run the car without it. Joel, have you noticed an oscillating effect on your temperature gauge? I notice you are located in Northern NSW, the ambient temperature is probably a lot higher than here in Melbourne and I suspect the effect I am describing would be a lot less pronounced.
My car takes ages to heat up, and in really cold weather sometimes never gets to temp except on extended city driving which I suspect may lead to poor fuel economy due to the computer still keeping engine on the warm up map. I have tried getting the information about the temperature when the 'warm up cycle' finishes from Subaru but with very little luck (even after 'borrowing' the engine and VIN numbers from a 92 liberty parked around the corner).
I know COR advertises milage of about 9.5 - 10L/100km with the EJ22 conversion, mine is in a '74 bay camper, I'd be really interested what milage other people are getting.
1303Steve ·
Hi
I had a small hole in my WBX thermostat, this was for easier filling without bleeding issues, the hole was really small, the smallest bit in my set, but it allowed the motor to be filled when cold and end up with coolant on both sides of thermostat before starting. The hole was so small I'm sure it had no affect on the actions of the thermostat. The WBX from a dry install and fill would usually use most of the overflow bottle on cool down, the air gets expelled and coolant gets sucked in via the radiator cap.
I'm planning on doing same thing on my STI install.
Steve
pete wood ·
As stated a few pages back, I've pulled the flipper valve out and that's all. before I did that, I drilled the hole out to 8mm as per Brad's instructions but the car took ages to warm up, I mean like, 40mins idling. I wouldn't do anymore than pull than valve out now. Again, it was to get around the bleeding issue, but also to stop the thermostat oscilating as I know a bunch of guys in the states have had this issue.
ElusiveStranger ·
TristanJ wrote:Theoretically I really tend to agree with you on this one. When I drilled the hole in my thermostat it was not for the reason of bleeding air, but for the reason of stopping the thermostat slamming open and shut, open and shut as it sensed the cold water and reacted to it. Kind of a smoothing hole. I drilled it under the advice of a V8 supercar engine builder
Maybe a question you should ask yourself, "Does the V8 supercar engine builder have the R & D skills and money of Fuji Heavy Industries?"
'Stats have hysteresis, this stops them banging shut like a barndoor in a wind.
Scoobies sup little bits of cold water from the rad when required
My theory why fitting a Scooby/water cooled lump in a bug/bus/whatever is......
Think of the relationship of the engine to the rad in a Subaru is. The water manifold line goes uphill to the top of the rad, the rad has a bleed built into the cap.
Right, in our set ups (bug/bus/whatever) this pipe runs down, either to the rad or under the floor and back up to a rad.
Oh, oh, air really doesn't want to go downhill unless it's dissolved in the fluid, which in our case it isn't.
So we have to put the bleed bit straight after the manifold.
Once you have the initial air out of the system it should take care of its self.
The heater or heater bypass ensures the stat is seeing the correct engine temp.
Stuff drilling the stat, set it up properly.
The latter's harder than the first. One works properly though.
Appols if I've rambled or gone off at a tangent!
Edit: 28mpg (UK gallons) on a cruise, 70mphaverage. 091 box, EJ20 NA donk
TristanJ ·
Thanks for all your thoughts, I'm going downstairs now to block the thermostat hole. Will post my findings on warm up time and possible temp oscillations.
TristanJ ·
Just pulled the thermostat out and the holes I drilled are too close to the edge to be filled with a pop rivet. So a new one is going in. On making the decision whether to put in a new 82 degree or a 78 degree, I rang Subaru and although they both fit, the 78 degree is the original fitment for the EJ22 engine, the 82 degree was fitted only to the later 6 cylinder engines apparently.
Joel ·
apperently 78 is for car with A/C fitted
i dont notice any oscillatation with mine till its up to temp
once it hits 90 on my gauge (which reads about 10c high) i see a bit of variation depending on ambient temp and speed
if its just crawling around town with no real air flow through the rad itll creep upto 95ish but ive still yet to see the fan cut it while im driving
out on the open road it wont budge of the 90 mark
i left the rattle pin in my stat
i was thinking of cutting it out like pete but it actually serves as a plug when theres pressure on the inlet side
what have you got in the heater loop setup?
mines just a short piece of 16mm heater hose looped back which probably helps keep a stable temp too
TristanJ ·
Okay, just returned from the Subaru dealership with my new thermostat and while I was there I asked about a few things.
According to the tech, the 78 degree thermostat opens at this temp but is only fully open at about 87 degrees, now here's the confusing bit, according to him (and he was contacting Subaru Tech Dept about it) the 'engine warm up' program is in operation merrily enriching the mixture until somewhere between 85 to 90 degrees, as between 90-95 degrees in optimum temp for this engine. That means if your thermostat is fully open and you have a very efficient (or ridiculously large like me) you will never get off the warm up map. Can someone please explain to me how you guys are running at 90+ degrees consistently when the only thing regulating your temperature (down to the thermostat top temp) is ambient temp and car speed?
He actually suggested two things, number one put a second thermostat down stream of the outlet pipe (as suggested by Ricola) or a electrically operated valve of some sort, or secondly, put a variable resistor in parallel with the temperature sense line going into your computer. You then connect the computer to a diagnostic box. You then get the car to it's normal operating temp (in my case about 80 degrees on the highway) and then adjust the variable resistor so that the computer thinks that the engine is at 90 and thus stops the 'warm up mode'. This would lead to another problem though, the fans would come on also 10 degrees too early.
Sorry for rambling, I will post again when I see whether Technical Dept actually give him the information, fingers crossed.
Joel, you say you are running a stock thermostat, do you know whether it is a 78 or 82? Also how is your milage, as you say your temperature gauge sits on 90 which is about 10 too high. This is the same me (80 degrees on the hwy).
Joel ·
its a 78
its just my gauge that reads about 10c high
i havent actually tested it to confirm but the temp comes up really quick till it hits the 89-90 mark and sits there which i assume is the 78ish area that the stat is just starting to open
also my fan turns on at 102 and off at 98
im thinking the stock points would be around 92on and 88off which also ties in with it being 10c off
i cant see that being right about the colds start enrichement not turning off till 90
they would make the stat open temp higher than the cut off temp otherwise they would cancel each other out
both my EJ22s were identical to the degree
i cant tell u mileage yet as this motor has only got 100kms on it so far and the first motor got 9.2L but that was only 1 tank with lots of idleing and hard driving testing the cooling system
a bug will get totaly different economy to a kombi though so its probably pointless trying to compare
do you normally have problems bleeding when you fill?
it would be worth trying the thermostat with the stock rattle pin inplace first before trying it removed
TristanJ ·
I'm not sure your temp gauge is out by all that much. On page one of this thread there is a chart which says the fan comes on at 95. From memory when I had my computer hooked to a diagnostic box, this is when mine came on too. My dash gauge is a bit open to interpretation...
In my mind, it doesn't make sense to have the warm up map finish higher than the fully open thermostat temp, hopefully next week I will have a more conclusive answer, although the technician says Subaru Technical are quite cagey about that sort of thing.
I'm going to install the new thermostat with the rattler intact and see how things go.
Joel ·
it would be around the same temp as the chart, but that chart is for later OBDII engines which also use vehicle speed to determine fan operation as well
most cars with thermo fans generally bring the fans on somewhere between 88 and 95c
the tridon website is good as they list all the specs for there fan switches
TristanJ ·
It's probably in another thread but here is a link to the original 1992 Subaru manual
In it (along with some other research in a Gregory's manual) I found the following information.
The standard 78 degree thermostat starts to open at 76 - 80 degrees and is fully open to 9mm at 91 degrees.
The correct nominal operating temperature for the EJ22 is 91 degrees.
The ECU engages the fan at 95 degrees.
AND (although it's just a graph) the richening due to the 'warm up program' finishes at 60 degrees (figure 22, page 14 of section 2.7a)
I will still be very interested to hear back from Subaru regardless, as the graph is only an indication.
pete wood ·
well, thought today's journey was worth a post. I drove up to Kurrajong today in something like 43degC heat. And the car worked hard. On the way out there as long as we were moving the car was ok and didn't need the fans. The way back it was a little hotter but survived ok. The top temp I saw was somewhere near 97 I reckon.
JVLRacing ·
tassupervee wrote:
Buggy Brad wrote:
ricola wrote:An 8mm hole in ther thermostat will effectively render it useless, Rich
Can you explain why this is so ??
The purpose of the hole is to stop the air blockage they will often get without it. I can happily say from experience that an 8mm hole will not make it useless. I am guessing from your comment you have of course run an 8mm hole in an EJ series thermostat and found that it was useless because you also ran it without a thermostat at all and it was the same as one with an 8mm hole it it ... yeah ??
If not you would be basing your comment on what exactly ??
Ummm...........well actually, I actually fully agree with Ricola.
Back in the V6 Capri days, we were chasing overheating issues and tried this approach after being advised to, along with the nafarious practise of removing the thermostat altogether!!! Which BTY, caused the engine to overheat even further!! And experimented with different sized and number of holes in the thermostat flange ranging from a single 3mm and up to many 6mm holes around the flange.
Basically, it all achieved nothing apart from causing the engine to run too cold when not run hard, say, down long hills and experience very wide and savage temp variations and seriously slowed the engine from initial heating up.
However, it did make filling the system pretty foolproof!!!
This is because so much of the water pressure differential, created by a closed thermostat, necessary to force the water thru the internal bypass system, including a heater core, was lost.
The water made its way along the path of least resistance which was the holes in the thermostat and went out into the radiator, introducing relatively cold water into an already cold engine, rather than forcing water around and around the engine sans radiator making warmup a really looooong process. The heater didnt work properly either after that.
Air only requires a suprisingly small orifice to bleed thru and a single 3mm hole right at the top of the flange is more than adequate to allow air to pass by that point without compromising the operation of the thermostat.
The operation of filling/bleeding the system out becomes a little more complicated and time consuming to get right but the results are well worth it in terms of faster warmup and less variation in water temps whilst running along with a fucking hot heater!!.
Careful attention to the setup of a de-airation/header tank will just about cure any air issues in the system regardless of the positioning of the radiator.
Ford, for one, solved the drama of a radiator below the top of the water system a long time ago.