"LABOUR"................Ruddy Hell !

well there goes the economy.............

I totally agree.....geez

Hogwarts here we come now that Harry Potter is in charge

hmmmm...time will tell I guess...4 years till the next election

Don't know whether to 🙂 or 🙁

4 years to tighten our belt

but on the bright side, if the interest rate blows out, house prices might well tumble as the people with silly mortguages on houses they shoudln't really have bought - sell up under pressure. I might finally get out the the Druitt. I feel sorry for all those polys who got turfed, how will the survive on their payout and massive supers. Not sorry for Downer - time to wake up to himself ... but then hes old money, never had a real job and still won't need to. Hockeys gonna open a chain of gyms for fat ex-polys and at least Abbott and Costello can play leaders without the rest of the planet sayin 'your kidding - is that what they are called - for real'.

Any ideas for ex-poly jobs in the real world?

they could become teachers. 👍

ye hah. To hell with the bloody war mongerer. If he hadnt have been so far up Bush's arse maybe we wouldnt have the Iraq problem that we have today and will have probably for at least a whole generation. I'm a swinging voter and for that reason alone, he would never have gotten my vote.

As far as the economy goes, it will control itself. Just like it has done in the past 11 years. Public servants run the country and will continue to do so. Drought, oil prices, and a weak US dollar are causing increased spending at the moment causing rates to go up. I dont think Howard is at fault for that and I dont think he was at fault for bringing them down.

Ordinary home buyers arent pushing up land and house values, investors are by pushing up demand. In times of low interest, mum and dad home buyers dont push up demand of entry level housing, they just go for a higher value home when they do move. If anything that would make the cheaper house next door even more cheap. Instead, allowing people to negative gear their investment is creating high demand for the cheaper end houses, pushing up values. Because the entry level housing prices go up, more renters are out there competing for the same lease. The rental goes up meaning they are less able to save for their deposit. NSW govt introduced tax to make investors want to sell all their rental property. Prices dipped. People got upset and the tax went away. Deny these people negative gearing, push them into the stockmarket and we'll see cheap housing as well as a bit of a boom for telstra shareholders.

12 years ago in the pre howard days I sold my car to get a deposit and mortgaged myself to the eyeballs to buy in. I'm doing the same now to upgrade. Its just gone up $35/month. I think thats the least of my worries and it certainly wasnt an issue when I voted.




I'm not an economist by any means, thats just a theory I have developed.

get them to work ??? hmmmmph you`d be lucky😁

I actually stuffed up my house of reps vote by not numbering each box. Not that it mattered anyway since Throsby has always been safe labor and they got a 10% swing on top of that. So much for climate change being an issue. The Greens LOST ground. Maybe its because I'm in a high polluting coal mining steel making heavy industrial area.

Cruddy defeated Coward for a reason,

but what i found more interesting is Pauline Pantsdown has created the Pauline party, shes still kickin hard, good on her.

What about the Shooters party, Fishermans and did anyone catch the "What Women Want" party in the far left of the white senate paper.

Haha. 👍

Well the good news guys, is that its only 3 years to the next election (not 4).

Some of those pollies aren't that bad. I've got a mate in the senate (he's a petrol head too) and have met plenty of others (I spent some time in parliament house - on both sides). I was talking to one Senator recently who's hubby has just built a GT40 replica.

I went and watched Julia Gillard give her last speech to the last parliament in Sept. All I can say is heaven help us if ol' Krudd's heart gives out. She's a shocker. I've seen 15 year olds at school do a better job in the school debating team.

Others aren't that good either. Just to balance things up here - I wouldn't piss on Downer if he was on fire. He should have been hung drawn and quartered for his piss-poor performance after the Bali bombings for a start.

Hi

Oh well. Kevin in 07 = no job in 08.

I cant believe that we have a guy called Kevin as the leader of our country. Every time I see him on the telly I want to turn up the contrast, he looks like needs to spend some time outside.

I had large mortgage the last time Labor were in power, I pity the poor punters if we get some I interest rises that I saw, try 3 percent at once.

Steve

all the ad's about howard making the interest rate come back up have made me laugh. each time it was only .25 of a percent. and it dropped by what ? 10% when he got into power. 🤓


i missed being able to vote by four days, and am not really suprised rudd got into power, considering murdoch put $500 million into his campaign.


ah politics 🤪

Havent you guys relised the only reason the econ groth was soo good is because howard kept the wages so low? As for interest rates.... I wanna see em go through the roof. I dont begrudge anyone investing... but when buyin 1 house is out of reach of the middle class australian.... and investors are buying them in lots of 10 at a time.... its time for a change. I can see it now. Interest rates go up... investors sell... flood market... market crashes... those who decided to borrow beyond there means... sink... Bring on the next resession were meant to have!


Tazz

I cannot believe that people fall for all the propaganda and bull crap that is aired on TV before an election and then they are dumb enough to go and vote for Kevin Krudd. I only read an article recently about how the unions backed him financially to gain power of the labour party and then backed him and his campaign to run for PM. Figures were quoted in the vicinity of $50 million to do it so I"m guessing all the union thugs and heavy weights will have their hands out now wanting the favours returned for their financial outlay.

You can see it now... back to the good ol days of union strikes every other week whether it be electricity, nursing etc etc the cycle will be back now that the unions have a puppet like Krudd to manipulate to their gains.

Anybody else notice how Premier Peter Beattie all of a sudden up and left politics just before the election debate got serious??? They put Anna Bligh in and see how all the uproar of the Traveston dam issue suddenly disappeared??? Not a word has been mentioned recently about it cause if Beattie had still been in power then there would have been a lot of labour seats lost due to it being refreshed in the media every week. Did he actually leave of his own accord or was he pushed out by some heavy weight union members making sure Krudd had every chance of winning seats in Qld without the drama surrounding the Traveston dam and Beattie????

we'll never know....

As for interest rates and a mortgage I am lucky that I have allowed a pretty large margin on mine due to seeing that this might have happened 5 months ago and will have enough to cover it and still have some cash to invest in something that will always yield results of an ever increasing price no matter who is in government....... My VW!!!!

Interesting how John Howard was a war monger yet Krudd wasn't. I seem to recall labor being given the same briefings as the government and they were in support of it then. Their position changed when the mood in the electorate changed.

Those in the military join knowing they may one day have to serve in a dangerous situation. Those whiners who carry on about it have no right to demean these men and women for their patriotism and service.

The economy does not look after itself as labor would want you to believe. Sure buracrats do the work but it is the government that sets the agenda. Whilst external factors do play a large role in the economy, it still is lead by the government. I remember not long after the coalition came in to power that we weathered the Asian meltdown and came through not only unscathed but in a strong position whilst all around us were basket cases.

As for getting rid of negative gearing, where will all those people live that suddenly can't rent anywhere because there are no investors to rent from? Lack of supply will drive up the rentals even further making it even harder to save for a deposit. Perhaps if people didn't need to have everything now, they could start with a smaller house to live in without the multiple plasma tv's and everything that opens and shuts.

I lost my home under 19% interest rates that came about under the leadership of labor and will never vote for them again. I see nothing different with krudd to any other labor leader. Things will be OK for a couple of years but then it will all start going downhill. Krudd will start borrowing to fund all his expenditures and then interest rates will go up again, people will start losing jobs because employers will be too scared they can't get rid of them if they don't work out and then they will lose their houses.

We are the laughing stock of the world for throwing out a government that has given us such continuous prosperity.

My 2c worth anyway.

Yogie

Well said Yogie

Ditto here Yogi. Well put. the other concern about Labour is their rant of getting the troops out of Iraq. At the moment if we as Australians come under fire from and outside attack then the Us will step in and help or defend us because of our loyalty towards them and our willingness to help when asked. Howard wasn't dumb in doing this as we have pardon the term " big brother" watching our back if anything should or could go wrong for us as a nation.

if Krud pulls troops out of Iraq as he has indicated since he became leader of the Labour party then i do believe the US wont be so quick to react towards helping us in a time of need. I could be wrong but that is something that surely the majority of Australian citizens could see as being a very large benefit/relief considering the unrestfull times we live in today with terrorism being so rampant as it is.

You guys can defend Howard and his crew as much as you want, but the nation (people) has spoken. Change is always scary for some, and you guys can make all the predictions you want, but time will tell. Howard has accepted the result maybe you guys should too and get on with your lifes and enjoy your VW's and leave the bullshitting,lies,
spin doctoring,agenda pushing,pocket lining and back stabbing to the professionals = politicans.

i hope my job keeps, i work for a job network member as an employment advisor.. hope they don't change unemployment policies.. practically all very long term unemployed people voted for rudd hoping they got out of Full time work for the dole or the likes.. I don't know what labors stance is on unemployment (cause they didn't really touch on that subject) but liberals did a fantastic job of that at least. BTW i don't even vote.. both major parties shit me (plus the smaller ones).. so they won't ever get my vote.

I'm on the lookout for a "don't blame me - I voted Liberal" sticker for my car 🙂

On the issue of easy to afford housing prices when it all crashes, housing prices will never come down, platuea maybe, but down, never....I'm just gald I fixed in a low rate for the next period of Labor's term!

I think it will be a 'time will tell' situation, but I hope for all the labor supporters sake that Krudd doesn't screw everyone over.....

so far people don't like the Krudd, and think in 2 years the wheels will fall off. Given the campaign, Krudd just leeched the Blair stance and became Liberal for duration needed to spout on about families and workers ... they are all 2 faced and now hes got the keys to the big house ... lets see how long it takes to get 'a computer on the desk of every student' ... lol ... ratify Kioto and of tell Bush to get fucked and bring the troops home from that total waste of time.

I'll put money on him not living up to those .... he's a pussy, he will do as Union money tells him. Batten down the hatches, buy a Prius ... life is gonna get expensive real soon.

Yep, Downer is a cunt and Howard just needed to listen, most people dont want Krudd, they just dont want to be talked down to and told whats best for us. Good economic manager - shit at relating to people ... shame he got stuck in th 50s.

I think that they will all become teachers too ... most of them are stuck in the fkin 50s.

DUBB61 wrote:You guys can defend Howard and his crew as much as you want, but the nation (people) has spoken. Change is always scary for some, and you guys can make all the predictions you want, but time will tell. Howard has accepted the result maybe you guys should too and get on with your lifes and enjoy your VW's and leave the bullshitting,lies,
spin doctoring,agenda pushing,pocket lining and back stabbing to the professionals = politicans.

cant wait to listen to 2gb tomorrow, as all the liberal listeners will be ringing up in tears:😢

I predict Gillard will push Rudd out inside a year.....
This will be the Unions compensation for floating the Campaign
Oh and I think I'll put some rents up! Ha hahahahahahahahahahahhhehehehehehehehehehehmuaaaahhhhhhh

Poor old Labor, they don't have a chance.

The people in the Reserve Bank who set the interest rate are Liberal appointments and supporters.

Therefore whenever they can they will, as they have in the past, put the interest rates up until it goes to the high teens as it did in the the 1980s.

I was paying 23 1/2 % on my investmant loan then.

Even if Labor is a good manager of the economy those buggers will stitch them up to make it impossible for then to do a good job.

Then when their mates the Liberals get back in they will drop the interest rates by about 10% again and keep them down.

PS I didn't vote for either of the major parties. I put them both last.

interest rates are a function of the local economy, admittedly in a market as small as Australia we are also at the mercy of larger global markets. While I agree that labor traditionally are shit hopeless we are in the middle of a global economic boom and I don't think labor could screw that up. However all that said there in no link between the reserve bank and government that I am aware of, happy to be proved wrong though.

Think you'd be right there Stephen...the reserve bank is independant from the Govt. and I understand that this was something that Johnny introduced under his rule...

Yep, the reserve bank is completely independant. Was reading an interesting article about how non-transparent the Aus reserve bank is in comparison to an equivelant like the fed reserve in the U.S. I think if the AU reserve was as transparent as most of their international counterparts then alot of the politician blaming and/or praising for things like interest rates (to use the most apparent example) would be significantly reduced.

Our official interest rate has always been within a couple % of what it is around the world.(for the last 20 years at least)

Yes things were tough in the eighties,
but BEFORE Liberal got back in my home loan rate was already down to 7.25% .(1994)
I think looking at the past, anything below 15 percent is normal.

One thing that has changed for the worst(whose fault? I don't know),
is that
available credit in proportion to income
has got to a point that is unsafe when the rate rises.

Years ago the banks would only allow borrowings based on repayments
of one third of your after-tax income .
These days 'interest only', and morgages base on your 'life insurance pay-out' are the norm.

Sounds like a ticking time bomb to me.

I would hate to be the one in power now that is trying to put out the fuse.

People should be tightening their belts no matter who got in.

Have to agree with you Dangerous. 👍 During those early 70s, the way the property prices were going up it was difficult to save enough per month just to keep up with the increases. In 1988, interest rates were in the high teens in other countries as well (UK) so it certainly can't be blamed on any one political party of the time but I guess it's great sport to have a go at them regardless! Maybe just greed from all sides of the equation?

The mortgage borrowed couldn't exceed 1 weeks wages per month AND it was only taken on the males wages as well with most lending institutions.

The other "norm" these days is that no-one can move into a house unless every bell and whistle is in place regardless of cost.

How times have changed!

DH

PS. And most only had one car which meant that nights and weekends were spent on repairs just to keep on the road so you could get to work ................ Memories of the old Notches and SBacks with no brakes, broken clutch cables, fuel pumps etc etc. Lucky there wasn't the traffic volume as there is today!

dangerous wrote:Yes things were tough in the eighties,
but BEFORE Liberal got back in my home loan rate was already down to 7.25% .(1994)

Ditto, mine was 6.9% in 1996

LIFE IN THE LOW LANE wrote:I cannot believe that people fall for all the propaganda and bull crap that is aired on TV before an election and then they are dumb enough to go and vote for Kevin Krudd.

Exactly right. Nobody wants to kiss your baby until election time. But why is Labor propaganda any less believable than Liberal propaganda?

Yogie wrote:I lost my home under 19% interest rates that came about under the leadership of labor and will never vote for them again.

Yogie

Lucky you didn't own it when little "Johnny" had them at 22% then...
If the government could really "controll" the intrest rates I think the Howard government would have done so.

silver wrote:I predict Gillard will push Rudd out inside a year.....

If that Hamster looking man-woman gets in as our leader, I'll be moving to Brazil!

HOORAY for democracy!
people have not realised that today we actually live a global world, not some closed shop that pauline would want as was the case some 19% interest rate time period in history..
wake up and smell the coffee in jamaica as as we are closely aligned with the US (51st state n all) if the US has those kind of % rates so shall we, really do you think that will come with the 'never ending war machine' in action since the 'ploy' of 9/11?
thank f#$k those pricks have been given what they deserve a good kicking up the ass.. look at em after the caneing pissing off as they dont want to play no more.. leaders of tomorrow BS.. costello the slimey prick cant handle it so wants to go home to mummy.. freakin sook
now for the fun over the next few weeks to observe the implosion of the liberal party and that some astronomers will see falling stars all over Australia..
11.5 years is way too long of the same 'team' (individuals 'forced' to be together) for any country still touting the same shit as was in '96,
reds under the bed, unions are bad, cant manage the economy etc etc etc
if you really wanted the same old same old you need a taste of post WWII USSR wher you had no choice as to what 'you' wanted or were 'allowed' to do..
then you would no doubt be more than happy with our system of government and institutions in place..
bemoan all you want im happy that that little prick got what he had coming!

This is another example of labor pulling the wool over peoples eyes. Bank mortgage interest rates were NEVER at 22% under howard. Personal loan rates were and that is what the labor supporters have been pushing to try and hide their woeful economic credentials and muddy the waters. Then people pick up on what they are saying without really knowing and pass it on as truth when in fact it is far from it.


Yogie

MickH wrote:

Yogie wrote:I lost my home under 19% interest rates that came about under the leadership of labor and will never vote for them again.

Yogie

Lucky you didn't own it when little "Johnny" had them at 22% then...
If the government could really "controll" the intrest rates I think the Howard government would have done so.

When I bought my first house the rate was above 19.5% and labour wasn't in "power"..... Our intrest rates have been too low for too long.They will go up regardless of who sits on Bushes lap. Good time for investing...😵

Yogie wrote:Bank mortgage interest rates were NEVER at 22% under howard.

Yes they were. It is just that at that time banks were regulated. Fraser enacted a cap on mortgage rates. An action which initiated a new inflationary spiral.

Deregulating the banks has allowed them do pretty much do as they please. Unfortunately that was the only solution at the time, along with floating the dollar as it isolated Australia from the Asian meltdown.

MickH wrote:Our intrest rates have been too low for too long.They will go up regardless of who sits on Bushes lap.

And up they will go, not in months, but in a few years, along with inflation and unemployment. Not because of the government of the day (Australia's get out of jail cards have been used up) but because of the two countries who have been responsible for the boom of the last 7 years. India and China.

China's dollar is far far undevalued. India is already starting to feel the effects of a skills shortage, with the same not far off for China. When that shortage hits both India and China and they are forced to float Australia will be in for a huge shock.

Politics has to swing back and forwards. The libs come in and look after money and the economy etc, then labor comes in and looks after the people - education, health etc. It's the way politics works.
It was time Johnny left, he's had his turn.

I voted green.
*ducks the flamethrowers*

No they weren't. Even your answer says they were regulated/capped which seems to try and excuse why they were not as high. It was personal loans that were that high. Under labor at the time our mortgage was 19%, personal loans were nearer 30%.

The Asian meltdown happened when Howard was in power. That was with deregualted banking and a floating dollar. What insulated us was our economy was in surplus and public sector debt was being reduced and the economy was being well managed.

Yogie

HotRodMatt wrote:

Yogie wrote:Bank mortgage interest rates were NEVER at 22% under howard.

Yes they were. It is just that at that time banks were regulated. Fraser enacted a cap on mortgage rates. An action which initiated a new inflationary spiral.

Deregulating the banks has allowed them do pretty much do as they please. Unfortunately that was the only solution at the time, along with floating the dollar as it isolated Australia from the Asian meltdown.

And you tell it to the young nowadays............. and they don't believe yer

Bugger all is going to happen until the middle of 2008 anyway because that's when the newly elected senators start. Until the 1st of July '08 the Libs will still have a majority in the senate, I'm sure they will take great pleasure in blocking all but the most basic of bills until then.


Regards,

Matt.

I didn't realise they'd be such bad losers!
Costello don't want to play no more, neither does Vaile.

What makes you think the minor coalition members will make noise when their leaders have tucked their tails between their legs & gone home to mum?


My team won.
That's all I give a shit about.

Spook wrote:I didn't realise they'd be such bad losers!

My team won.
That's all I give a shit about.

Happy happy joy joy! With you mate! Howard got what he deserved.

Yeah screw the so called "liberal" Bush licking, asset selling, LYING, facist, rich loving, over taxing under spending, self generous, 69% super stealing, out of touch, unemotional, war mongering, polluton tollerant, education blind, medicare hating, greedy money grabbing, pack of cunts. I hope they rot.

tell us how you really feel..............😂

kevo got the gold mine!
johny got the shaft !......😂

I wonder how old is Hertz???? Not old enough to know enough about politics obviously

Liberal/Labour - same coin different side.
Everything in politics is planned. (Not by politicians)
A quote I saw - "Australia - Land of the Gullible"

syncropro wrote:Liberal/Labour - same coin different side.
Everything in politics is planned. (Not by politicians)
A quote I saw - "Australia - Land of the Gullible"

Very True! Left wing- right Wing .... Wings on the same bird!!!!

GST comes to mind.......Keeting tried to introduce it,Coalition were against it, -Labour lost the election.........
🤪
Libs intoduced it in 2000 funny that!😂

On a brighter note: Some lenders have put, are about to put up Fixed Rates!❗

Reserve bank meets on December 4!🤓

Watch this space!

bugDbug wrote:I wonder how old is Hertz???? Not old enough to know enough about politics obviously

🤪 i thought he described the liberals quite accurately!!!😂🤘

Looks like Hertz only repeated the dictionary description of the Liberals. If you do a seach under any of the words he used it takes you straight to liberal.losers.com 😵‍💫
At least our governments can be removed without a rebel insurection. No blood, no bullets is the always best.

here here

Matts on the ball, the accelerated growth in China is, and will continue to put pressure on the incumbent world market forces. Liberals can point to leaving Krudd with quite possibly the strongest economy in the world. Shame they are so shit house with funding the basic infrastructure the country needs like social services, health and education ... the problems Krudd faces are whether or not he delivers on education and skills investment now ... our economy is strong because Howard hold the purse strings tight ... its fine saying time to let loose and fix school, hospitals (kiss babies) etc., but there is an inherent risk that short term pressures to please unions and stay in power will prevent any serious long term plan to compete in the changing global economy.

Be very brave to set out a 10 year plan ... cause the investment would be huge ... 1 computer per kid in schools ... give me a break, DET school technology is so under funded and out of date its not funny - and so is the DET view of how technology is used in schools. Its one thing to talk up '21st Century Learning for our kids', but honestly - you insane if you think he's gonna deliver on that in 3 years or so. I've got Labour coming out to my school to 'talk tech' tomorrow (seems we're a model school, though Catholic not DET). Can't imagine how this poly will begin to understand edu-tech needs, so hard to see how in an hour or so she's gonna relate to it as per the touted policies.

I did notice today they are talking about 'giving every Aussie kid 'access' to a computer' - wtf is that? there is a mandated funding policy in place for PC/kid ratio already ... what it doesn't address is tech skills, support and infrastructure ... most DET schools have ZERO computer support, so how schools are gonna train kids to work in the world 10 years for now (jobs that probably are not invented yet) is beyond me ... we could send them to factories ... oh hang on, anything we make can be made in China for chips (strike that idea).

Even Holdens are really Daewoos or Kias in disguise ... can have an economy unless you make things people want to buy. Batten down the hatches ... Howard or Krudd, the party will come to an end ... even Howards tight fisted economic management wont fend off what is coming, and by all accounts its not that far away.

Krudd has a lot to deal with, dogma of Unions in the 70s/80s and he growth of Asian Economies ... its a fkin tall order for anyone I reckon ... you've never had it so good!

hmmm massive surpluses n underfunded education and heath services.. well f#ck me its my money those pricks hoarded for the past umpteen years and 'tried' to use it to buy all n sundry off to be put back into office..
thank f$ck that finally people have woken up and seen how in micro terms the society is heading into oblivion as is the US..
uneducated and many homeless abound.. no wait thats this country..
maybe now the rectification can begin..jeeesus lets actually spend spme $$ where it is actually needed and will be benificial..
shit doesnt take a quick fix say between elections as the liberals would have you beleive, it is long term building that creates collective wealth in society that all within this country deserve to attain and enjoy as many on here do..
basic fundaments of a fair go..
im not advocating stalinist cental planning however a medium is required n really 10 years isnt that long in the history of the world to further a society to narrow the divide that has enveloped this country especially over the past decade..
thems the facts n its not immune to here so i do hope that we as a people can set an example to other liberal democracies to hopefullty raise the bar so others may emmulate and learn from asociety that has finally woken upto itself..
its not all about having the fastest red ferrari in the muti garage now? we drive vws, the peoples car for cripes sakes..

ah political debate... love it.

h wrote:hmmm massive surpluses n underfunded education and heath services..

Hi

Thats a state issue, but NSW has been spewing about the huge slice of the GST pie that Qld gets in comparison.

Maybe now that we have comrades in all states and federally as well, we will get a GST rise?

The media made a big deal about Kev driving his son to school in his Prias, a car that doesn't produce much pollution now, but it would have made heaps when being produced, my old bug must be carbon neutral now it was made so long ago.

Anyway we all treating this like a big football match and how great our teams are etc. I just hope that Australia is winner.

Neither party did say anything about infrastructure for the future, lets hope we get something going on water conservation and not build silly desalination plants like Morris Dilemma is doing in NSW.

Steve

a prez called KEV......haha...only in OZ🤪

now abbot has quit the lib leader race. Nobody wants the the wheel of the sinking ship! Maybe there is a position available for an AVD member!

pod wrote:

bugDbug wrote:I wonder how old is Hertz???? Not old enough to know enough about politics obviously

🤪 i thought he described the liberals quite accurately!!!😂🤘

Old enough to see what many have become blind to.. And certainley old enough to vote. Im a touch left wing, as I am a paid member of the Socialist Party of Australia, But I'd sooner Rudd than Howard anyday.

this is the most interesting the forum has been for ages !
love a good debate !😁

1303Steve wrote:

h wrote:hmmm massive surpluses n underfunded education and heath services..

Hi

Thats a state issue

Steve

true that but where does the money come from..?
you guessed it.. the feds who directly tax us with our consent 🤪 (ahh democracy)
the notion of massive surpluses stored up for an election fighting fund paid by us totally pisses me off as i'd want to see our money given to where it is needed
n if the states (thank god for the states) deliver the services to us then so be it, fund it and get on with it..
the issue of raising the gst will have to go be4 the senate be4 it could be raised n if it did the rudd govt would become a one term wonder..
after all the years of recalsitrant assholes telling us what to do IMO i think there is more at stake than a one term government on offer..

1303Steve wrote:....The media made a big deal about Kev driving his son to school in his Prias, a car that doesn't produce much pollution now, but it would have made heaps when being produced, my old bug must be carbon neutral now it was made so long ago.

Good call, Steve!
Always been my argument for driving planet warming old clunkers (well maintained, good airbox, exhaust & running on unleaded). It's all about your enviromental footprint.

Just to go off topic

1303Steve wrote:

h wrote:hmmm massive surpluses n underfunded education and heath services..

Hi

Thats a state issue, but NSW has been spewing about the huge slice of the GST pie that Qld gets in comparison.

Maybe now that we have comrades in all states and federally as well, we will get a GST rise?

The media made a big deal about Kev driving his son to school in his Prias, a car that doesn't produce much pollution now, but it would have made heaps when being produced, my old bug must be carbon neutral now it was made so long ago.

Anyway we all treating this like a big football match and how great our teams are etc. I just hope that Australia is winner.

Neither party did say anything about infrastructure for the future, lets hope we get something going on water conservation and not build silly desalination plants like Morris Dilemma is doing in NSW.

Steve

"This is the Toyota Prius ... it has two engine, neither of them are very good" ... Clarkson.

Well we had the fed minister woman in at school today for all of an hour. Had no fkin idea what a computer was, let alone how they should be used....best of all, when she showed up, the boss asked everyone in the staff room to stand and congratulate her on the win. WTF, maybe stand for the Queen or Kiera Knightly, half the staff stood and walked.

Same shit different snout in the feeding trough.

Hi

Can I just say that I'm really proud the way that this debate has been handled on this forum, not much name calling or crap, just good honest debate, well done everyone.

I'm a trade union member, today we knocked back an EA, which frankly stunk. This EA would most likely have got through if the Libs were still in. As the Liberal party adds said "were back"

Tonight I heard the republican debate got a mention on the radio, I suppose because Kev is a republican and Malcolm Turnbull who may become the next opposition leader was the head of the republican movement this had to surface.

Next they will want to change the flag, again.

How long do you reckon until the 1st boat is spotted of our North western coast?

Steve

Strangely, only a couple of libs have figured out that you can't piss off almost the entire workforce & then win a popularity contest.
Howard, yesterday, still doesn't accept work choices (or lack of) was his downfall.

Bring on the republic. But we've had a true Australian flag since the Eureka stockade.

Spook wrote:But we've had a true Australian flag since the Eureka stockade.

The Kooris would disagree

phatratpat wrote:this is the most interesting the forum has been for ages !
love a good debate !😁

I agree................that's why I started it !!😂

I was at my mother's last week and asked her why she had a NZ flag flying from her balcony. She had no idea it wasnt an aussie one. I had to point out the differences 👎

I spent some time in Parliament House just before the election was called. The rumour doing the rounds was that Labor was planning to double the capital gains tax - nothing substantiated ..... but who knows?

Good call to put Penny Wong in the Ministry - she's one of their brightest (better than Julia)

56astro wrote:

Spook wrote:But we've had a true Australian flag since the Eureka stockade.

The Kooris would disagree

So we ought to go for a flag that represents a conquered race? I don't think so.
I refuse to fly the Australian flag while ever it has a foreign insignia in the corner.

Spook wrote:So we ought to go for a flag that represents a conquered race? I don't think so.

I never said that either.

I think the flag issue may be on the agenda though, as suggested earlier.

For what it's worth, as soon as the Queen falls off her perch the republic issue will be on the agenda, and I think it's about time!

56astro wrote:

Spook wrote:So we ought to go for a flag that represents a conquered race? I don't think so.

I never said that either.

I think the flag issue may be on the agenda though, as suggested earlier.

Yep, there must always be some issue to keep us divided
Liberal/Labour - Ford/Holden - This flag- that flag, on and on, etc,etc.
Can anyone imagine what it would be like if everyone
was united.👍

So Aboriginals united around a flag prior to British colonisation? Isn't the "Flag" an idea that would have been unknown to them?

I'm no expert on the Australian indigenous people but others I have studied had a concept of land as; "use of land", eg; fishing use, cultivation use, gathering use which allowed many tribes to share the same piece of dirt according to tribal "rights".. "Ownership of Land" by the individual is a very western concept

In terms of the union jack in the corner.. we have to remember that the great majority of immigration from the 2nd half of the 20th Century onwards, was by people that were leaving their home country due to economic hardship, political instability, wars, the rule of the gun etc..

They came to Australia (and other commonwealth countries) as it had a) freedom b) opportunity and (most importantly) c) a stable system of government, laws and social conventions that gave one thing above all others... SAFETY.. Safety to bring up families without government sponsored invasions of your home, in the middle of the night and dragging off your father, son, daughter.. never to be seen again.. Or your 12 year old son walking to the shops for bread only to be shot dead by occupying troops..Think about it for a moment.. Think of all the countries where this is daily life.. In the last 10 years count the number of atrocities that we watch on TV from far away and then go and bag our own country because we can't afford a home.. Fucks sake guys, this country owes a lot to that union jack in the corner.. And I'll never forget it.. Most people that bag our history, our origins and our strengths, are the same people that scream first at the slightest hint of social injustice in their own tiny worlds.. Think about it.. Don't rush to change.. What we have is precious and well worth preserving.. That is why it is the envy of many.. That is why people die to defend it..
my 2c.. I'll get off the box now..

Hi

Well said StenGuns.

Look what a great country we are in. The Howards waited at the lodge for the Rudds to arrive so that they could show them around, the Keatings did the same thing for the Howards. Not like some countries after an election.

I think our current flag relates very well to our heritage.

Steve

Great Debate,

I would like to propose the following after having read all the comments.

Get rid of State Paliament (we are over governed and represented)

National Laws and Taxes, no more finger pointing or its the States responsibility

Increase presence of Local Government reporting to National Govt ie Local independent Member campaigning for needs in the local community

Double the salaries of National Govt so we get some real talent in govt, who would want to be Prime minister, couple of hundred K a year with an excellent retirment package, but under constant surveylance and ridicule, Murdoch and Packer get great media whatever they are doing.

Put GST on everything and get rid of income Tax, then you can genuinely choose how much tax you want to pay, might cut back on the never never generation that will never own their house.

Put some money into infrastructure, not tax cuts, i will just spend what I get, but if the collective savings of tax cuts was 34billion, I think we could have put in some great infrastructure ie Health, Education, Transport, Power.

Just some of the thoughts in my mind.

Lets all try to be good to each other and crush those that bring society down such as the git that stole Spintstars centre cap.

Cheers,

Calcool

God Bless this country
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/joy-a-world-away-from-war-zone/2007/11/29/1196037040798.html

StenGuns wrote:God Bless this country
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/joy-a-world-away-from-war-zone/2007/11/29/1196037040798.html

Hi

Good story. Its people like that that deserve to come here, not the queue jumpers from our North West.

Steve

Are the current native people really the first inhabitants of this land? or invaders the same as we were? I have read a few different theorys on this and Im not sure! I mean if they started this business in Europe where countrys have been invaded/taken many times over who knows who are the real indigenous people of these countrys are they going to start land rights? No they just get on with life. I lost a grandfather to WW2, should I expect the German people to send me a letter of appolegy and some compensation! It happened, hopefully we have learned from our mistakes and it will not happen again.
As for this government only time will tell. Trashing them before they start is a bit like saying the latest Volkswagen is a pice of crap before anyones even driven it! give it a year or so and we will soon see!
Rob...

Republican as PM and republican as opposition leader (i assume turnbull is the only one left interested). I wonder if we have to wait for the queen to fall off.

People dont fight for a flag, they fight for what the flag represents. I dont know why anyone would fight for the top left corner seeing that country was well prepared to sign over the top half our country to the Japanese because they were more intereseted in using ANZAC soldiers as cannon fodder in Europe, the middle East and Africa

amazeer wrote:People dont fight for a flag, they fight for what the flag represents.

oh so true.. good point

In this lucky country we can name our teddy bear anything we like.

unlike....http://tinyurl.com/399uzw

Seeing as this is a political debate AND we're now posting links to SMH articles - here's another.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/the-partys-over-and-liberals-will-soon-be-history/2007/11/28/1196036982629.html

StenGuns wrote:So Aboriginals united around a flag prior to British colonisation? Isn't the "Flag" an idea that would have been unknown to them?

I'm no expert on the Australian indigenous people but others I have studied had a concept of land as; "use of land", eg; fishing use, cultivation use, gathering use which allowed many tribes to share the same piece of dirt according to tribal "rights".. "Ownership of Land" by the individual is a very western concept

In terms of the union jack in the corner.. we have to remember that the great majority of immigration from the 2nd half of the 20th Century onwards, was by people that were leaving their home country due to economic hardship, political instability, wars, the rule of the gun etc..

They came to Australia (and other commonwealth countries) as it had a) freedom b) opportunity and (most importantly) c) a stable system of government, laws and social conventions that gave one thing above all others... SAFETY.. Safety to bring up families without government sponsored invasions of your home, in the middle of the night and dragging off your father, son, daughter.. never to be seen again.. Or your 12 year old son walking to the shops for bread only to be shot dead by occupying troops..Think about it for a moment.. Think of all the countries where this is daily life.. In the last 10 years count the number of atrocities that we watch on TV from far away and then go and bag our own country because we can't afford a home.. Fucks sake guys, this country owes a lot to that union jack in the corner.. And I'll never forget it.. Most people that bag our history, our origins and our strengths, are the same people that scream first at the slightest hint of social injustice in their own tiny worlds.. Think about it.. Don't rush to change.. What we have is precious and well worth preserving.. That is why it is the envy of many.. That is why people die to defend it..
my 2c.. I'll get off the box now..

Your telling me we'd lose any of this if we got rid of the union jack? Of course we wouldn't.

Start at the start of "white" Australia's history.
We were a f#cking prison, a damn fine prison. This is where mother England dumped the "dregs" of society, for crimes such as stealing the loaf of bread you spoke of.
This is our heritage.

Of course when they found out it was a great place, great men came forward. These men we owe a lot to but their memories get shit on. Ayres rock is a prime example.

1901 with federation we became a nation, we became us.

By the end of the 2nd world war, when the mass migration you speak of really got into full swing, the only things we had (& still have) in common with England was our system of government & the language(??)

The scare campaign waged by the monarchists last time this came up was that we had to cut ties with the past to move forward. This of course is wrong. By the same token being bound by the past is wrong.

The fact remains that, right here, right now, I live in a country where my official head of state lives in completely different country that I need a passport to go to. The same head of state has come to my country 4 times during her reign.

How can that possibly be right in 2007.

A Couple of more thoughts.

Why not make voting voluntary, then only interetsed people will vote.

Get rid of preference votes and have true democracy, who gets the most votes wins.

Simple stuff!

Cheers,

Calcool

Hi

Its actually compulsory to attend a polling booth and get your name checked off, you don't have to actually vote, but then you have no right to complain.

Steve

The Westminster system of Government is a legacy of our British roots.. We can't deny the past any more than we should allow it to hang over our future.. I'm not big on the head of state being a foreign royal.. However, until something comes close to it, in terms of protection of our way of life, then I'm happy to stick with it...
Would we lose any of it if we cut ties.. maybe not, I don't know.. Who does?.. Forever is a long time..

I arrived in OZ in 1979 as an economic refugee.. I suppose I had a choice.. Australia or somewhere else like.....
(remember this is 1979)
Afghanistan
Argentina
Bangladesh
Brazil
Cambodia
Chile
Egypt
Ghana
Haiti
India
Laos
Lebanon
Monrovia
Namibia
Oman
Pakistan
Paraguay
Peru
Rhodesia
Russia
Salvador
South Africa
Tunisia
Uruguay
Vietnam
Yugoslavia

Or maybe someone can tell me where in the world would have been a better place in 1949,59,69,79,89,99? And I'm not talking about sun, sand and surf.. Just a place where my individual rights were protected so I could work, raise a family and do all of the stuff we all do..

StenGuns wrote:Just a place where my individual rights were protected so I could work, raise a family and do all of the stuff we all do..

Enjoy it while it lasts, and think about the other side - forced payment of road tolls, trial without jury (both against common law rights), forced medication with sodium fluoride via water supplies, cops without ID, remember APEC. Overseas owned prisons, the list goes on.