Hi all, i am currently in the middle of a type 4 engine conversion into my 72 auto notch, plans are either a 1911 or 2056cc engine, i am thinking of going for 1911cc which is a 66x96 combo, the main problem is the air intake bellows, i was lucky enough to score an original 412 station wagen intake duct and rubber boot, but there is a problem the type 4 engine sits to far back to use the intake duct and original type 3 boot, so after much thought and measuring i think i will get the 412 intake duct replicated out of carbon fibre for its strength and make a mould and cast new boots out of silicon using the original diameter of the type3 body and original diameter of the 412 intake duct, and hopefully if it works will then sell these to the lovely type 3 crowd if they want to do such a conversion. I am buying a new cam and lifters from Jake Raby in the US, as well as heads from him. I have already got short manifolds and the correct air filters to clear the deck. My notch has been sitting in the shed for 2 years and now the bug is back to get it going again, that and the fact i am seriously considering starting an engine overhaul shop, cant really promote my aircooled engine building skills while driving an 04 Golf gti. Here are a few pics of the eingine in place with the 412 duct. Cheers Damo.
jo_tas ·
That would be fantastic if you can get some made!
I'm sure there's plenty of people (myself included) who would love one!
There was a big discussion on this on thesamba forums a little while back, someone was going to make some but it never happened.. so theres another entire market over in the US (and probably other places too!) 👍
Tazz ·
there is a converted wagon in toowoomba thats a sweet looker. I'm sure i seen somewhere there is a conversion kit of some sort around. My memory fails me to where i seen it but it changed the the outer fan housing to fit type3 bellow.
Tazz
66deluxe ·
Tazz wrote:there is a converted wagon in toowoomba thats a sweet looker. I'm sure i seen somewhere there is a conversion kit of some sort around. My memory fails me to where i seen it but it changed the the outer fan housing to fit type3 bellow.
Tazz
Tazz, there was a guy in South Africa with a kit but i have tried several times to contact him but to no avail. I will remove the duct and take a pic to let you guys better understand why i think a custom boot is required.
Damo.
OZ Towdster ·
Damo how about just making an adaptor at the motor from fibreglass that bolts on to the type 4 fan screen points and just uses the standard type 3 bellows or is there not enough room between motor and body ???
66deluxe ·
Adam, there aint enough room, i fitted the type 3 boot it does fit but is severely squashed and rubs against the cooling fan and would most likely get pinched by the belt and get ripped off. Also i didn't want to risk breaking the rare 412 intake duct, i have thought this over for ages and i think a new boot is the answer, maybe even get some silicon rubber sheet and have it stitched to correct size on both ends, was even thinking kevlar cloth could do the trick, hard to get but when you work in the aircraft industry, these things become available more easily. i will solve this problem. Damo.
OZ Towdster ·
Sounds good and as i thought to tight for the type 3 bellow , but hay some times we all overlook the obvious in our great ideas and just my 2 cents.
Keep it quite but my name is ANDREW 😀😀😀
66deluxe ·
[quote
Keep it quite but my name is ANDREW 😀😀😀 [/quote]
So it is, helps if you look at the name under the avatar sorry mate.
Tazz ·
66deluxe wrote:[quote
Keep it quite but my name is ANDREW 😀😀😀
So it is, helps if you look at the name under the avatar sorry mate. [/quote]
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Found this.. i printed it out ages ago i'll see if i can find the website again
Fan intake boot: WIth an air cooled engine, it is critical that the engine be fed a diet of cool air. On the Type 3 (and the Type 4 station wagen), this air was pulled in through vents in the rear fenders, direct to a rubber boot that connected the body to the fan shroud. Without this boot, the fan will pull in the hot air surrounding the engine, and will not properly cool the engine. You will want to mock this setup with your new Type 4 engine.
After a lot of research, it has been found that the 411/412 station wagens (Variant) used a very similar setup that is handy in this conversion. The boot flange that bolts to the Type 4 fan shroud is quite rare. A VW parts manual shows the part number as 021-119-609A and was installed on all years of 411 and 412 station wagens (Variants).
The most difficult part of solving this problem is locating this flange. You will probably have to check local wrecking yards, eBay, or maybe see if you can get your local VW dealer to check their shelves for an NOS one. Use this flange with the rubber bellows and clamps and your engine will be getting a supply of fresh air.
Tazz
66deluxe ·
Yes that is off Tuna's site under t4 conversion i will take photos of the duct and the boot and you will see why a custom boot must be made, i could cut both t3 and t4 boots and glue them together but i want to make these so other people can do the conversion. Thanks Tazz, Damo.
Tazz ·
kool. can you just get me a pic of the Type 4 boot... memory is failing me. Wondering if its easier to modify a plate to fit the type 3 hole to reduce it to type4. The plate could sit on the inside of the lip on the body giving you ample room for the rubber to flex. Sheet metal is easier to play with. Sealed up with either some pinchweld or sikaflex. Fully welded wouldnt matter because its inside the type3 hole, so the original bellow would just fit over it if you needed to do a quick engine change back to type3.
Tazz
avwboy ·
heres one i did at the workshop for my brothers notch project
i had a 411/412 boot and adapter
but the adapter was not only too close to the body , it also seemed to point up on an angle
i sectioned the adapter , mocked up the two halves
and then fiberglassed it up on the inside/ outside
the ouside is so so looking , but the inside i made sure to shape it for flow as much as possible
sorry i dont have any before / sectioned pics
but here is the finished product , it has no clamps and works fantastic
from memory oil temps went from 115ish to 90-95 while cruising
MY68VW ·
I'm so interested in putting a Type IV engine in my square, if this part becomes available I'm another customer.
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE ·
If you know a good motor trimmer that does trimming in industrial strength canvas get him to make a bellow that will fit.
66deluxe ·
Well i scored another 412 inlet duct of the samba now i have 2, one is still in the car for measuring purposes and the other is at a custom fibreglass shop i found yesterday, now the plan is to make new ducts with the original mounting points to the fan shroud and have the type 3 inlet so we can use the original type 3 boot, but this boot must be cut at the second rib to shorten it, the ducts will be made of aluminised carbon fibre so that they are super strong and high temp resistant. A silicon boot is also getting made, with aramid fibre reinforcement, hopefully should have the prototype made in two weeks, i told the fabricator that if it is successful i will get more made. I am working on custom aluminium cross bar mounts so that they are slightly longer, these attach to th engine case and so i can use a bolt on dipstick adapter that i will get from Jake Raby, the idea behind this is to lower the cross bar to allow fitment of the dipstick adapter and remove the original type 3 diptick filler. i am working on the brackets that attach the cross bar to the body. As for filling engine with oil you can just remove stock type 4 breather and fill from there. The only part they may be trouble is timing your engine, as i have a 914 fan shroud it has a screw in plug that you remove to time the engine, type 2 shrouds don't have this, still working on that one.
Timing marks are usually stamped on the bus fans as i have checked with other fans that i have.
Damo.
T-34 ·
It's possible to make the bellows out of thick leather - you'll need to make a pattern to check the fit before cutting and sewing up the bellows into a suitable 'cone' shape to fit - if you don't like the sound of leather - rubber sheeting will also possibly work.
You'll need to use giant hose clamps / duct clamps to fit it on. 😉
Tazz ·
Sounds like you got it sorted Damo... cant wait to see it in the flesh. 👍👍👍👍
Tazz
T-34 ·
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE wrote:If you know a good motor trimmer that does trimming in industrial strength canvas get him to make a bellow that will fit.
ooops - missed this post 😊
66deluxe ·
Well got some bad news the fibreglass guy got back to me finally and quoted $1300 for the mold and one finished product, so i said thanks but no thanks, so it looks like its back to the drawing board. Sorry.
Volkswagenboy ·
I guess not enough market out there just yet hey?
-Staggers.
Cam ·
Would it be worth starting some sort of syndicate by getting those of us who are definite buyers to help fund the initial production?
OZ Towdster ·
That sounds expensive damo , i would geta couple of other quotes i think as i have had quotes for moulds to for my Towdster guards and they are half that and twice the size.Send me a PM with your phone number and i will put you in contact with CVD'S Glasser.
As for the timing marks why dont you use the 30mm dia hole at the top of the engine case and mark the back of the flywheel using the original guide for the degree settings then just a simple filed groove in the hole to align with when timing.
Andrew
bond ·
good idea adam
typ371 ·
Hi there I am new here, just wondering if you have you thought of moving the engine forward 2-3 inches it is not that hard and it would help gain a bit more room and also help with the weight as the t4 engine is heavier than the origional moving the the weight forward should also help the handing.
66deluxe ·
I thought about that but then i decided to use the type 4 boot that i got with the inlet duct and will push the large end into the body and then onto the inlet duct, it fits great, i have made the rear engine mount from kombi mount i just made to uprights from plate stell and two pieces of square tube steel and welded them together, i have almost started on the engine build, rods are currently being overhauled and BBC ARP wavelocks going in and balanced end to end, crankshaft is currently off beeing balanced and remaining parts are on their way from Jake Raby, I have cleaned and measured the case and it is in great condition, i am using a set of original VW main bearings in std/std size a swapmeet find for $30, the crank measured up standard on both main and rod journals, so i had it polished. Heads will be 42x36 2 litre chamber and stock plug location, 96 KB pistons, AA cylinders, RAT Valvetrain kit, twin 40 IDF webers electronic ignition in stock type4 205 dizzy or mallory unilite, custom exhaust. I have to make some steel mounts to replace the rubber ones on the engine cas mounts as the dummy engines rocks easily, the type 3 mounts to the body will be the only rubber mount then.
Cheers Damo.
jake raby ·
Looks good Damo!!
(always in stealth mode, seldom revealing my presence :-)
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE ·
Make sure you beef up the Type 3 body around where the engine bar mounts into it.
Andy ·
Howdy Damo, looking good mate!
Question for you, you have kept the stock kombi bar at the rear (modified of course).
Do you still have the rubbers between the bar and the case?
And will you use the stock type 3 mounts betwee nthe body and the bar??
Cheers,
Richard
66deluxe ·
jake raby wrote:Looks good Damo!!
(always in stealth mode, seldom revealing my presence :-)
Thanks Jake.
66deluxe ·
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE wrote:Make sure you beef up the Type 3 body around where the engine bar mounts into it.
Brenden can i come round and have a look what you did?, i am 5 minutes away at Murrumba Downs.
66deluxe ·
Andy wrote:Howdy Damo, looking good mate!
Question for you, you have kept the stock kombi bar at the rear (modified of course).
Do you still have the rubbers between the bar and the case?
And will you use the stock type 3 mounts betwee nthe body and the bar??
Cheers,
Richard
Richard, i have modified a rear bus bar to fit, i will be making some solid mounts between the case and the bar because it just rocks to easily, and i am using the stock type 3 mounts. Question for you do you still have some auto gearboxes?
Damo.
Andy ·
That's great Damo, that's the trouble with my car, they left the stock rubber mounts on the case, so the motor is not properly supported to take the torque of the motor. I think I showed you when I was around. I will need to do what you have done one day.
Hmm, do I have auto GB's, yes. What are you after?
Richard
X-I-TED ·
jake raby wrote:Looks good Damo!!
(always in stealth mode, seldom revealing my presence :-)
wow a raby post that wasnt and ad ❗
now thats MA$$IVE 😂
nice work damo
Tazz ·
Looking good damo.... watching this with great interest.....
Tazz
66deluxe ·
I got my rods back yesterday and have dropped them of to be balanced, they would of been done earlier but my machinist has been flat out building V8 drag engines. I am still waiting for heads, cam and P&C's to arrive. Then i can get cracking on the engine. Here's pics of the big block chev 3/8 wavelock bolts installed into the rods.
66deluxe ·
Well i've decided to remove the auto trans for a rebuild, after reading many posts about increasing the power of the engine and not at least replacing the seals in the auto, i have decided to do it right. as soon as this notch is complete and rego'd i will be selling it, to complete my bug build so i want the buyer to be happy. A fellow aviation engineer mate of mine actually did his first apprenticeship in an auto trans overhaul shop and he says he'll build it for me, i just need to source the rebuild kit, ie seals, gaskets, o-rings, brake bands. So i just have to find a repuitable auto shop for the kit any one got ideas?
German Auto's may be able to help, they are local for you, II cab may confirm.
mackaymanx ·
Bulkparts are the ones I see mentioned most on The Samba. Yeah I've been doing my research, been collecting autos for a few years. I have a buggy(MaxFX) planned with MickH useing a type2 003 auto/EJ22. Let me know how you go kit wise as I maybe looking for one too.
66deluxe ·
Well, my friend is rebuilding the auto trans for me he says he got the rebuild kit through his old boss in Canberra. I have finally gotten all the parts for the rebuild, the rods and crank have been assembled so far more to come next week after Valla. Some foto's for you.
All parts layed out on bench.
Head comparison between LE 200 914 replica's top and rebuilt bus heads with 914 plug angle bottom
Keith Black 96mm pistons
AA 96mm cylinders
ready to measure crank borrowed mic from work
damo99 ·
I have some plans for the type 4 into type 3 conversion for thr bellows .it uses the stock type 3 boot and modified type 3 shroud to bolt straight on to the type 4 motor. there are some photo's to show how it works
(hope they turn out(photo's).i will have to post again to add the rest of the finished photo's.
if any one is intrested just post on here and i'll send them the plans
damo99 ·
this system works excellently ,keeps the type4 cool in all weather and uses a stock type 3 bellows .
it's also very easy to fabricate .the first photo is of the finished product ,the other 2 photos are of another persons efort using stock type 3 shroud (modified).but it doesn't seem to direct the air well enough
damo99 ·
sorry the bottom 2 photos on the last post are of impi's(south africa's)fiberglass conversion shroud that can be bought from him(if you can contact him )for about $25aus
MY68VW ·
I came searching for this thread as I've had my square back for a month now. It went in to have the type4 installed back in Feb. Rear discs front/rear sways, efi, injected. Wayne Penrose did it and I'm impressed with the power and handling. Most impressive is the sound and constant looks and comments.
bajachris88 ·
If ya need any help or queries from a successful type 4 swap... ask midlifecrisis.
Sounds like ur going swarve though. He put one in a wagon some time ago for his daughter. nice bloke too.