Well, Valentino is not his real name, to protect the innocent,
but he asked me to assemble this tranny to go into his streeter 'super'.
There are not many things inside this tranny that would want anything better.
"V" was very good and had all his parts nice and clean, and after some discussion we settled on the following ratios:
4.125 diff ratio, on a rare ZF swingaxle limited slip.
(yes, in an IRS!...more soon)
FTC 3.778 first,
FTC 2.357 second gear,
ALBINS 1.722 third gear,
and what appears to be an old Hollinger
1.333 straight cut 4th gear.
Did you say 1.33 for fourth?
Yep, thats over 4400rpm at 100km/h!!
dangerous ·
My normal first step is to set up the crownwheel and pinion.
This particuar case was quite difficult this time, because the shim that VW used was miles wrong.
After much trial and error I was able to use a 0.15mm shim to get the pattern as close as I could,
and used .006" back lash as the factory minimum.
Normally the shim is around the 0.5 to 0.7mm with this particular tooth form.
But as it was the contact was right on the tip of the pinion.
VW probably set it this wat because it was within their spec for silent operation with about 50hp.
It WAS centred height wise, but with so little contact it would have failed with the power that Valentino has.
Each time the pinion shim is changed,
te backlash must be re-set to spec BEFORE checking the contact pattern with bearing blue.
It took me a whole day to get this one sorted.
dangerous ·
The next step was to trial assemble the gear stacks and adjust the end clearance of each gear.
I have used the early metal caged bearings throughout:
I drilled holes through the hubs for 1 and 2, and also for 3rd and 4th.
This allows for better oiling of the gear faces under thrust loads.
Here is the first stack trial assembled on the pinion shaft.
dangerous ·
Once the end clearances were set and the intermediate housing clearanced for the 1.333 fourth gear,
I scrounged up some missing reverse linkage parts in preparation for the setting of the forks in the jig.
Here you can see the pin that engages the ERCO reverse idler gear:
Steel forks were used for the gear selection, because some are made from a weaker bronze material.
Also the nose cone was machined flat in preparation for the steel thrust plate that helps to retain the main shaft bearing.
Valentino's car has a late model three-bolt nose cone mount,
which actually is the strongest nose cone there is, except less used because it came out on later L bugs.
56astro ·
No Junk there!!!!
dangerous ·
Here is the gear set and intermediate housing installed in his case.
Valentino had a salubrious powder coated grey colour for the case, and then polished the ribs.
The nose cone will be done as well after it returns to Sydney.
The clutch fork has been fully welded,
and the long arm is used for less clutch pressure on the pedal.
dangerous ·
Well, that last shot showed a peek of those massive side covers.
Them, and the special adapter stubs, are what allows the Swingaxle ZF to be used in an IRS tranny.
There is a support bearing inside the covers,
retained with a couple big circlips.
The taper on the tip is to enable the assembly into the swingaxle fulcrums, sight unseen.
A bit difficult, but it all went together well.
These ones take a Kombi CV joint, and are about 2" shaft size.
No snapping off these suckers.
Ahh! All done!
hellbugged ·
i guess someone has to ask, sooooooooooo with a user name like mine, here 'tis,
why the swinger ZF only to go irs?
nbturbo ·
Dave-my jeans are now officially "creamed"-nothing more to say.
dangerous ·
Apparently the swinger ZF inside is stronger,
plus no more broken splines at the CV flange.
Better support with the bigger bearing too.
hellbugged ·
ahh 👍, oh, and very noice as usual........
matberry ·
You mean those output axles are UNBRAKO !!!
Fantastic Dave
mactaylor ·
valentino the muffler man?
Turbo54 ·
19" wheels Valentino?
dangerous ·
Muffler man?
No not 19" wheels.
VWCOOL ·
Mmm, this is a tasty burger!
dangerous ·
dangerous wrote:Apparently the swinger ZF inside is stronger,
plus no more broken splines at the CV flange.
Better support with the bigger bearing too.
From memory Jeff had something very similar
in his green beetles all those years ago.
hellbugged ·
dangerous wrote:
dangerous wrote:Apparently the swinger ZF inside is stronger,
plus no more broken splines at the CV flange.
Better support with the bigger bearing too.
From memory Jeff had something very similar
in his green beetles all those years ago.
nah.......straight irs ZF with type1/kombi output shafts.(still there, but don't tempt me yet, i have to finish fixing the notch first🤪)
i was telling him about this and your other recent builds (thrust plates etc) today........he likes all the theories, ideas/priciples behind them all as well as the execution of what is learn't..........that's his sort of thing as you prolly know.
matberry ·
Jeff should send some of his junk up this way, for a holiday from all those wood shavings.
mactaylor ·
BAKAHAG is that reversing a old woman? or taking a punt on one.
humpty ·
matberry wrote:Jeff should send some of his junk up this way, for a holiday from all those wood shavings.
Bugger that.... Jeff should send some of that unused junk my way.... I'm one of the OG Hellbug customers from back in the day.... Hell, I even still have one of the OG stickers on my car!
Thats dedication right there...
Anyway.... That is a very interesting way around the weak link.... But tell me this.... Why use the old ZF and not go with the new tech Quaife?
westi ·
why does this look like somthing i have seen before.
i think this might be parked in my shop.
i thought it might be some of your handy work involved but wasn't qiuet sure.
we had to make some bracing and other mods.
i will post up some pic's when i get back from fiji.
bula bula.
mactaylor ·
nisa bula westi! where are the side covers from cant find them anywhere?
dangerous ·
westi wrote:why does this look like somthing i have seen before.
i think this might be parked in my shop.
i thought it might be some of your handy work involved but wasn't qiuet sure.
we had to make some bracing and other mods.
i will post up some pic's when i get back from fiji.
bula bula.
I think that is Henry's handy work you speak of.
That tranny was once in Matt's drag car
and was part of Jeff's contribution to their mid 90's partnership.
Now making a home in another up and coming All Motor car from Sydney(I see all)
humpty ·
dangerous wrote:
westi wrote:why does this look like somthing i have seen before.
i think this might be parked in my shop.
i thought it might be some of your handy work involved but wasn't qiuet sure.
we had to make some bracing and other mods.
i will post up some pic's when i get back from fiji.
bula bula.
I think that is Henry's handy work you speak of.
That tranny was once in Matt's drag car
and was part of Jeff's contribution to their mid 90's partnership.
Now making a home in another up and coming All Motor car from Sydney(I see all)
In that case....
Oh great and wondrous Muffin Man, the see'r of all things good and fast, what praytell is in my future?
hellbugged ·
dangerous wrote:
westi wrote:why does this look like somthing i have seen before.
i think this might be parked in my shop.
i thought it might be some of your handy work involved but wasn't qiuet sure.
we had to make some bracing and other mods.
i will post up some pic's when i get back from fiji.
bula bula.
I think that is Henry's handy work you speak of.
That tranny was once in Matt's drag car
and was part of Jeff's contribution to their mid 90's partnership.
Now making a home in another up and coming All Motor car from Sydney(I see all)
yeah Matt's had a similar looking side plate, also IRS of course................sold last spectacular swap meet, dirt cheap too
matberry ·
Ahhh the missing links.
dangerous ·
humpty wrote:
dangerous wrote:
westi wrote:why does this look like somthing i have seen before.
i think this might be parked in my shop.
i thought it might be some of your handy work involved but wasn't qiuet sure.
we had to make some bracing and other mods.
i will post up some pic's when i get back from fiji.
bula bula.
I think that is Henry's handy work you speak of.
That tranny was once in Matt's drag car
and was part of Jeff's contribution to their mid 90's partnership.
Now making a home in another up and coming All Motor car from Sydney(I see all)
In that case....
Oh great and wondrous Muffin Man, the see'r of all things good and fast, what praytell is in my future?
I see in your future a 12 second 1600, grass hopper.
(but I can see an 11 second one over here so hurry up!!) 🤓
westi ·
nice one.bula bula.
i don't know dave i think that loverly grey would be a hard act to follow.and i have never seen side cover's like this before.even the polished high side bit's on the rib's.the other tranny in the shop ,the one which i am yet to update photo's only because i am away that is in a drag car to be,that box was biult by Mr HS 618.
anyhow i will be back next week.photogragh's tell now lies.
cya
P.S more fun=more sun.i have only heard this about 100 times,i thought i might pass it on.
mactaylor ·
im confused where are the SIDE PLATES from?
dangerous ·
The side covers are a custom made part.
They were not new when I fitted them but had a history from back in the eighties(rally car) as far as I can tell.
The BAKAHAG is, I am guessing, the company who made the conversion to IRS.
Sounds like you have done a search Mac and come up empty?
If you wanted something similar it would be a custom order I would say.
You could try formula ford guys though.
mactaylor ·
yeah they just look soooo good and couldnt find them anywhere !!!
choppa ·
Nice stuff Dave
Thanks for sharing.
I think I noticed your gonna run the standard coil spring between 3rd and 4th.
Makes for a nice whine, but do u get breakage with that?
I do but I havent so far.
dangerous ·
Never had a problem with using the spring spacer.
I use a solid one now because, on my own tranny, I use 4th gear as a thrust face and it needs to be constant.
Pinions with a nut on the end get a solid spacer like stock.
At least with the spring it will not lose its pressure against 4th, and helps keep the circlip under thrust and therefore, in place.
Even my blown combo used the stock sprung spacer ,
and I DID break a 3rd gear once, but it was a stock VW third and had suffered oil starvation.
I was also using third gear for skids back then.
Nothing should whine.
I have heard whine when the crownwheel and pinion is set weird under coast conditions, to get a better load pattern.
I recal Bergs saying that with a bigger engine they had once the tranny began to whine under a coast situation,
but Gene's explanation never made sense to me.
Despite my respect for the Bergs,
there were(are) a lot of things they say and do that don't ring true with logic.
Suspension advice was one of a few.
.....but without proper analysis, taking their advice will, in general, be a satisfactory path to take.
choppa ·
Interesting. Yep all my boxes whine. I did have a go at blueing a crown and pinion once, but I got a bit bored, now I just use the OG shim that came out, maybe thats my problem.
I think your right, I remember reading that bit of Genes about cocking of 3rd and 4th , looked believable to me, maybe it wasnt the gospel.
Now ive got your info, ill blue the next one i do.
Cheers
dangerous ·
Actually Valentino recently sent this trans back to be for an upgrade of gear ratios and inspection.
The 1.333 fourth gear was not much fun with 4500rpm at 100km/hr,
and the previously "reconditioned" ZF was a little noisy, so these things were addressed this time.
After a recent taste of circuit racing, he thought he would change a few things.
I have some pictures and will post them up soon.
humpty ·
Development is never ending.....
dangerous ·
After some discussion about budget and available used ratios,
we settled on the following ratios.
3.875 crownwheel and pinion
Original FTC 3.778, and 2.357 mainshaft,
1.524 third gear
1.125 fourth
This will give him a 'bearable' 3600rpm.
dangerous ·
One of the reasons for changing the crownwheel and pinion was this:
If you saw Steveys driving style at Valla,(and probably Wakefield) you can under stand why the poor old R&P
dangerous ·
The other thing I found was that the sides of the trans were not flat.
I think this was from an over eager removal of excess powder coating.
I made up a big flycutter and this worked well.
dangerous ·
The other area that needed addressing was with the ZF limited slip.
The break away torque was measured and found to be well avove the factory settings
of 108 to 144 ft.lbs.
Someone had added some shims in there from "who knows what"? ,
so these were removed,
and the casing machined to acquire the correct preload.
Stanley ·
Top stuff Dave....imagine what you'll be able to do with a mill
Flintstones ·
Great work as always Dave.
Cheers
D
dangerous ·
Here is the insides of the ZF limited slip diff.
Note the tiny spiders and fine 18 tooth side gears.
This is the reason I am not a fan of the ZF.
If clutch packs are kept tight within spec they tend to hold up pretty well.
dangerous ·
You will note that these side gears have 18 teeth.
Stock VW is 17 and later swing axle and IRS bugs had 15, making them even stronger.
Here is the NEW Brazilian 3.875 crown wheel and pinion.
I set it up for factory pinon depth and the pattern is where it has been lapped at the VW factory.
I normally like the pattern to be closer to the nose,
but being a Klingelnberg tooth form in this case, the tooth is a little thicker toward the heel anyhow.
Also the pinion pattern location is where I like it in both 'drive' and 'coast', so I was happy to comprimise a little.