Oils aint oils....Sol

What type of oil is preferred these days? I have heard all sorts of comments lately regarding cam and lifter wear, and when I pulled down this engine for upgrade, the cam and lifters were shot. Some say its the lack of zinc in todays oil, I personally believe its lack of cam break in proceedure.
Any input.

many lifters will look like that after 400,000km... it might be general wear and tear and looooooong oil change intervals from some hippy owner in years past

Just about any oil these days is better than Formula One stuff a generation ago

This engine has known history, not even 50k km and is only pushing a trike along with no thrashing at all (knowing the owner)
Oh , I have probably seen at least hundreds of type one engines disassembled, without trying to sound like a smart a$s.
I have heard there has been cam/lifter wear caused by modern oils, and was after some local expierences.

Cheers
Matt

Are they original lifters or have they been reground. Quite some years back, I had a cam ground by a well known cam grinder in Parramatta. I actually watched the machinist????? render the followers useless by using a glazed wheel which turned the wearing face blue! AND HE WONDERED WHY I GOT UP HIM ABOUT IT! We all should know that this draws the temper (softens) the case hardened surface so always check before using re-ground followers.

DH

Plenty of other things come into play. I've got an oil temp guage in one of my cars - and whilst water temp comes up to spec in less than a kilometre, it takes about 10 kilometres for the oil to come up to normal operating temp. Getting into it at all in those first ten ks is going to cause wear.

I had a big engine built many years ago, and the engine stopped with 'collapsed' tappets after about 70miles! Turned out the builders (in FTG - and long since defunct) had faced off the old ones on a grinding or linishing machine - straight through the hardening ! (They weren't ground flat.) Once replaced, the engine ran for quite a while with no problems from that area.
Oils rated after SJ have reducing levels of anti-scuff & EP additives (indicated by the Zinc level). SJ or SH is probably best, with generally the highest levels (of Zn etc.). SL is OK, but avoid SM (except for new cars).
SG may be acceptable for older engines, but the level of protection will be lower as the overall additive content will be lower than SJ. If you really want to use an SG rated oil, don't pay too much --- metal-to-metal protection should be better with SH, SJ or SL.

matberry wrote:This engine has known history, not even 50k km and is only pushing a trike along with no thrashing at all (knowing the owner)
Oh , I have probably seen at least hundreds of type one engines disassembled, without trying to sound like a smart a$s.
I have heard there has been cam/lifter wear caused by modern oils, and was after some local expierences.

Cheers
Matt

Oh, 50Kkm, that sux- yes it does look clean inside...

G'day mate

What did the cam look like?
As anyone who has posted in this thread would already know, the cam and lifters form a kind of "partnership" for want of a better word in the way they run together. That's why you need to break in a new camshaft and lifter combo after a reco. When one is changed and not the other you risk trouble, right?
Those lifters have clearly worn through the case hardening, but why? Surely not even cheap oil would cause that kind of damage after so few km?
I like castrol gtx in my kombi and i am using synthetic in my type 3.

Cheers, T 👍

I wander if the engine was run in with correct cam lube and only the outer valve springs.
I use Shell Helix oil the blue bottle. Good gear.

Cheers Col

Cam was also pitted on two of the lobes. Hope I didn't confuse, the engine has done not even 50 000 km, but internal wear looks good. It was brand new Scat turn key engine, and having seen a few of these engines before, I feel assembly technique adequate. I am well aware of the importance and technique of camshaft breakin, I have always been very specific in this area, all of my engines go thru not only this proceedure but also a pressurized oil system to provide oil pressure prior to initial startup without the need to crank/turn the engine over. This I believe is an important step for initial the start.
As already stated the cam break in is to work harden the lifter to lobe to the same hardness. Engine rpm is critical at this stage, to provide lifter rotation without too much speed which can also damage one or both surfaces.
No engine that I have put my name to has suffered premature failure in this area (that I know of, and I have built quite a few). One recent example is my 2332. Even with FK 87 and dual springs on the street, upon recent inspection, cam/lifter condition is perfect. This was also true for my 2165 race motor with Chev springs.
The area of concern is as Brutis has mentioned, the exact makeup of engine oil or not broken in correctly.
This engine was not assembled by me nor cam breakin.

On a side note, I would strongly advise against using regroung lifters or cam, as the surface hardening is not very thick (approx .005"[?])and this is lost when ground. Also as the lifter and cam get smaller, rocker geometery goes out the window. A full new set is not much money either.

Cheers
Matt

Col, only single springs with Scat C25.
That post above has to be the most words I've typed ever!

Hi

Was he a warmer upper? Cold idling to warm-up can reduce oil on the cam lobes, the oil for the cam lobes comes from oil sprayed off the conrods and not much happens at low revs.

Steve

Not sure here Steve, I will ask owner that one.

matberry wrote:On a side note, I would strongly advise against using regroung lifters or cam,
Cheers
Matt

There's no probs using reground cams as long as they are done right.

Matt, there is an interesting article that looks fairly authoritative on Oil Selection for AirCooled Porsches (with some useful links) at:
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

This comments on zinc & phosphorus levels and why they've been reducing. Also reviews of other additives (Moly, STP, etc.), and many links to other info.

What brand or spec of oil was used in that engine? Was it changed REGULARLY? (ie. 6 months max!) Did it ever have any oil additives added to it (some may cause corrosion)? It seems odd that two of the tappets are pitted (corrosion?) but the other looks perfect.

Brutus
Thankyou thankyou thankyou

Just what I was looking for.

One prob with the engine in question was that it went to probably 4 or 5 different mechanics fishing. Therefore the oil viscosities and brands weren't consistant, which makes this evaluation difficult. I agree it is odd that the cam/lifter wear or failure is only on some lifters, and after reading all the info you supplied the links to, I shall evaluate further.

Thanks again Matt

I think you will find it will be probably be a metallurgy problem with the scat cam.

Could also be a dud set of lifters? Have seen that before albeit a long time aog and they were yankee ones too. Even seen a Type 4 Yank billet cam wear a lobe off inside 2000k's. Plain and simply a bad piece of billet LOL Wasn't a cheap cam either...

Matt send me your email address I have some stuff that might interest you...

cheers

Brennden

I would also measure valve spring pressures on cylinder 1 (all for that matter) as it may have been valve bouncing due to a weak valve spring.

This type of lifter failure was common a year or so ago with that brand of follower.

Despite the info published in a blue book,
the run in procedure does not work harden the lifter or cam.

They are hardened during manufacturing.

There may be some microscopic bedding-in of the two machined surfaces however,
and the raised run-in rpm is thought to help splash ample oil around during this time.

Cast iron cams and lifters are generally induction hardened,
and the depth of this hardening was too shallow in some brands of lifter
because of cost cutting, and out-sourcing to different suppliers.

The depth of the hardening is the critical issue I believe.

Any cam machinist worth his salt will test any cam and lifter for its hardness,
and 'deem' it acceptable, if it is within spec.

Provided the remaining hard layer is to spec there is no problem regrinding cams and lifters.

Genuine original VW cores have the best chance if this is your prefered cam and lifter choice.
Other stuff may be fine to so long as it is tested regarding its hard layer.

I would expect a hard layer to be more than 1mm.

If it is too thin, or not hard enough,
it will show up in the hardness test....or too late as Matt has shown.

Hardness testing can be very complex,
with items designed to have a thin hard layer(eg nitriding)
using a different test method than other items using a thicker hard layer
(eg case hardening and induction hardening).

The test presses a small ball into the surfae and the size of the diple relates to the hardness.

Softer or thinner layered materials would use a different ball size and pressure.

Years ago that brand was the best you could get,
and I have heard that they have returned to their old quality,
but without destructive testing,(harness teating makes a small dent)
and a subsequent regrind it is hard to say what you have in a new packet.

Perhaps even a HOT grinding process may have softened the lifters during manufacture,
although with cast iron that normally adds to the hardness.
rambling again, but never going to get consistent hard layer with a rough machinist(or linisher!!?)

Good info there Brutus.
Do you know what the S- rating is on the ACE products oils for Volksies?

I have heard and read the oil debate,
and believe it is an issue, but probably would only show as wear on ALL items
or during that critical break-in period if it were the case.

Thanks for that info Dave. I was of the same belief that items were hardened during manufacture and not run in. Otherwise why would they shot fire test turbo parts before assembly. We have recently had a turbo RB30 motor built to produce a reliable 400Kw and alot of the build costs were in part testing before assembly.

Its my understanding of running in a motor that its to remove/score parts that might lightly bind during reving. Such as the bore of a stroker motor needs a slight grooving at the top and bottom of the bore to reliably rev to 8000rpm. As do may other internal parts. Isn't that why when running in you gradually increase loading and rpm?

Thanks all for your input.
There is certainly a lot of material on the web on this subject and I feel it necessary to do some more research. So far I have seen some interesting stuff on oils etc and it seems, there is a definate relationship with cam/lifter breakin and engine oil.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/engnbrkn.htm
The above links [especially the first one] shed some engine breakin light that I felt made good sense.

Dave ,I know they are hardened during manufacture, but I still feel it feasable that their first running together is what produces the two different components to work a matched hardness into thier surfaces. As stated earlier, maybe it is mainly the rotation and high volume of oil requiring the rpm for this to happen?

More to come I'm sure...

Matt

Now I'm getting confused.

The oil I bought for this engine upgrade and therefore other engines to come [recently decided to 'go Castrol'], has spec codes API SM/CF,ACEA A3/B3.

The LN Engineering Oil Page
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html
[link provided by Brutus], states in parragraph 5
"API SM not sufficient for protection" yet in parragraph 8
"ACEA A3/B3" is "that much better","1/6 to 1/4 wear" and is"very effective in controlling wear".

My oil fits both these specs so is it ok or not??

Dave, QPL's "ACE" 40 & 30 oils are both API rated: SJ, CF, and CG-4. (Also meet SG and earlier.) I know that SJ was chosen quite deliberately.
SJ is the petrol engine rating to up 2000, CF is off-road/heavy Diesel to date, and CG-4 is 4-stroke highway Diesel up to 1997.
I think these are still current spec's. If you look at API's website they are listed there. When I last looked SJ; CF; CF-2; and CF-4 onwards were still 'current'.
"Newer/more current" is not necessarily better; just as "more" of anything is not always better!

According to the literature, those ACE oils should meet:
API SJ (and SG). Also CG-4 (and CF-4) / CF
JASO MA (ie. Non-friction modified: a 4stroke motorcycle oil spec.)
ACEA 02 - E2/B2
ACEA 99 - E2/B2
Volvo VDS
MB 228.1
MAN 271, and some earlier spec's

Stop Press, just got the following from QPL:
Typical data for ACE 30 & 40:
Ca - 0.25%
Zn - 0.11%
P - 0.10%
TBN (Base no.) - 8.0
Ash - 1.0%
"If other info is required contact QPL, Bacchus Marsh, 03 5367 8794. E: sales@qplubes.com." (or email: aceoil@optusnet.com.au)

Matt, probably not ideal, as the SM should rule it out. I'll could find some notes on ACEA specs, but you may find more recent info yourself by researching. Unless I had a later Golf or somesuch I wouldn't bother: they're recent European spec`s and it seemed hard (to me) to relate them to other specs. The whole spec situation for oils has just got rediculous (some could be labelled Alphabet soup!), and car makers (including VW) have greatly added to the confusion by coming out with a whole raft of their own (many of which probably don't mean all that much). This is probably aimed at forcing the owner to return to the dealer for servicing, as well as to make sure the required grade is used, at least for thre warantee period..

The main things to look for (for older/aircooled motors) are:
1. Correct viscosity for the intended use.
2. Suitable API rating. ie. SF - no. SG - maybe (only if a reputable brand and not very expensive). SH or SJ - yes. SL yes (if no SJ available). SM - no.
3. And make sure it's changed At Least at the distance AND time specified by the maker. The time is important and QPL recommned 6 months MAX. in all cases in the crankcase, and approx. 2 years max. in the trans or diff, regardless of mileage. (This recommendation is for our older/aircooled cars, not your new Mercedes!)

Oil spec's are becoming more confusing these days and worse yet the oil companies are no longer giving out details of their oils and their contents(%constituants). What happened to the old books that they produced to explain a companies oils? I have tried to get info and spec's many times to no avail. Does anyone know of where or how to get this info?

Matt,
I'm feeling like you too. Are these oils the right oils or not? I used to run a small workshop at home, doing repairs, etc and at first the oil companies were good. After a while the oils became multi-fleet oils!!!!!!! yuck!!!! How can one use a diesel oil in a petrol motor and vice versa? I have used a private automotive engineer for consult before on oils and additives. His recommendation was to stick with the old school original oils as much as possible. He believed that modern oils were for company profits and not for consumers vehicle benefits. After reading many articles published on the internet and in automotive books I tend to agree. So where do we go now? I'm currently trying to push some weight through a customers company to get info, will keep everyone posted.

Adsman, they won't give you ALL the info, generally. The people you are allowed to talk to don't (usually) know. Some of the makers publish technical data sheets that will list the typical levels of some ingredients. This is probably the best info you'll get. The "big" companies (BP, Shell, Caltex, Penrite, Mobil, Fuchs?, Valvoline - I think that is it for Aust.?) normally have several formulations for all major products. (This is logical and necessary, from their point of view.) Also they continually evolve! (Same comment.) And yes there is a tendency towards 'sameness' and "one size fits all". You can get usually current data sheets on the net, from those major companies.
You can often use a Diesel rated oil in a petrol engine but usually not the opposite. If you're going to experiment, always start with the engine manufacturer's specs in mind though. And ther are some exceptions, diesel Golfs I think specifiy particular petrol engine oil grades. A lot of the gratuitous info on the net is just hearsay or wrong.