the religion thread

Just continuing on from the other thread - why are people against religion?

Praise the Lord!

Im not against religion nor anyone who is fanatical about it. Its great to have a love and belief for something so much.

I just have a problem when your inocently walking down the street minding your own business and someone tries to jam religion down your throat..................that aint the way to convert.

And, what other post???????

gtmac, the "is stealing wrong" post.

i just hate everyone equally 🙂

Don't have a problem with some forms of religon at all. It's the far out extremists who want to kill everyone who doesn't worship their "god" that get up my nose......

everyone can chose. It's a free right in this world to do so. I have mine and if someone asks me about it I'll tell them about it but certainly will not force it apon anyone who doesn't want to know.

You can summarise every religious war ever fought in one sentence:

"My imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend."

* Everyone is entitled to their own faith, and I object to people trying to thrust their beliefs on me. I don't try to convert other people to Volkswagens - but I will help you once you've come over yourself.

* I object to religion using unverifiable promises, and threats, to bring people into line, especially children. "Be good and do as you're told, and you'll go to heaven. If you're bad, you'll burn in hell forever." I have had a recent episode of protecting my daughter from over-zealous scripture teaching at school.

* I especially object to some religious leaders (especially fundamentalists) perverting science to try to convert people, again, particularly kids. The creationists are the worst, with their lies about scientific geology, astronomy and biology to promote their irrational beliefs. Critical thinking is a skill we must teach our kids.

I am afraid that world war three, when it eventually comes, will be fought over religion.

Religion has caused more death, war and suffering than anything else in history. Id rather people had more faith in themselves personally 🙂
This is strictly my own opinion, if people choose to follow a religion I also respect their chioce to do that.

i think they are all good and fair points, but religion also gets generalized. There are many many great things that come from peoples belief that act in a positive way towards the world. There is obviously a good argument either way.

Personally i think its best to assess it case by case, person by person, church by church and so on. MY personal belief comes from an understanding of the bible - i believe that the bible is God breathed, which basically means the bible is Gods direct word to us.

I think culture is also different now - those born in the 50s, 60s and possibly 70s were probably forced to go to church, or follow their parents way, at least thats what i see of the Christian faith. I think today its more of a personal choice rather then one pushed on you by your parents etc.

Religion may have casued many wars and deaths, but the flip side is that it has also given love, acceptance and understanding when people have needed it, community work and helping the poor, raising money for good causes etc.

Generalised statements don't really help, its up to an individual to find out for themselves what they believe and why - for me i look to Jesus as the perfect witness and i believe in that. I go to an Anglican church, but i wouldn't call myself an anglican, i would call myself a Christian.

This doesn't make me better than anyone else either. Christians a generally seen as hypocrites because they don't practice what they preach - i try my hardest but i dont practice what i preach, its hard work - All true Christians would say that they are sinners and need forgiveness.

Gibbo wrote:Religion has caused more death, war and suffering than anything else in history. Id rather people had more faith in themselves personally 🙂
This is strictly my own opinion, if people choose to follow a religion I also respect their chioce to do that.

Gibbo, this a popularly held view. I wonder if the problem is that people confuse religion with two other things. Tribalism and/or Ideology.
Hugh McKay (not a Christian) said the other day on radio "religion only becomes a problem when it turns into tribalism" or in western countries Nationalism. If you look back over the last century, you'll find that almost without exception, nationalism (big tribalism) informed our ideologies and caused the major conflicts. Nationalism is bad for minorities (causes things like ethnic cleansing) and makes people think they are superior because they come from a particular place (US foreign policy). So lets look at the great wars and see if I'm right? WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and the plight of the Kurds. 911 was retaliation for US nationalism. I don't condone it, but that's what happened. Nationalism has been the scourge of the 19th and the 20th centuries. Want to see it at work in OZ? Look at the redneckery surrounding the Cronulla riots and the southern cross stickers on the backwindow of cars. That really scares me.

Most other conflict is causes by selfishness and greed. Sometimes it is said to be done in the name of religion, but at the heart of it, selfishness and greed are the real problems.

BTW, if any Christian feels it's appropriate to kill women and children for Jesus, they need to take a good long hard look at the bible and themselves. The same goes for pedophiles.

Re evangelism; I love VWs and think they are great so why shouldn't I want to share it with other people? Same goes for Jesus as far as I'm concerned. That said, there's a big difference between sharing and bible bashing! 🙅

The other thing worth saying at this juncture is this too.

What has religion done for Australia?

uncorrupt legal system, education system, social welfare, rights for workers...and more. All these things came from church/religious angencies and were taken on by the government later on.

Australia might be a very secular society, but it has been built on Christian values.

I beleive that religion is just a way of trying to explain the unknowns. They are stories, moral beliefs and rules to try and convince children to do the right things. The beliefs and rules are very similar across most religions.
Simon

Most of the religous slaughter fests are the the result of some unelected priest/kult leader/witch doctor pointing to someone or something and saying that it is not Gods way or word and should be "cleansed" eg: The Crusades, protestant/catholic purges, The Spanish Inquistition, Salem Witch trials etc etc
Then you ask "whats wrong with religion?" Look at history there are plenty of examples.
Faith is completely different. That is someone's personal belief/life choice that each person needs to find after experiencing or studying as much as Life can offer.
If you need to be threatened or bribed or brainwashed into a life choice then you are only a puppet not a being. The Bible is a good book to live by, NOT to live FOR. My2c

Pete you make some good points, but unfortunately religion does have to wear some blame for the wars of the last century. WW1 was sparked by uprisings in the Yugoslav potions of the former Austro-Hungarian empire. That part of the world is still an ethnic and religious hot spot. No one could ever forget the Nazi persecution of the Jews during WW2, and then the tensions when the British created Jewish Israel on then Islamic Palestinian land in 1948. All the tension in the middle east since comes down to religion. The first thing Saddam did after invading Kuwait was to fire Scud missiles at Israel. No one doubts that the US is involved in Iraq now over oil, but the locals see it as a religious struggle - jihad.

Even the Christians fight one another - look at Northern Ireland over most of last century. Even here, I can remember growing up in a protestant government school and picking fights with the catholic kids from the school down the road. No one knew why. We were just following the older kids, who learned it from their older kids and so on. Even the fallout between Don Bradman and Bill O'Reilly was based on protestant-catholic rivalry. It's so stupid.

I think the Cronulla riot thing was based on redneck racisim and the 'us vs the mussos' thing. What a disgraceful episode that was. But ultimately islamic fundamentalism is as bad as christian fundamentalism, or Tom Cruise scientology fundamentalism, or any other fundamentalism.

Do we really need religion to teach us morals? Surely we can work out ourselves what is right and wrong? We know that stealing, murder, child molestation and racisim, for example, is wrong and always has been.

I class evangelism as akin to aggressive marketing, and yes bible-bashing is invasive and tends to have the opposite effect - it puts people off. Yes we all love Volkswagens - we are the converted! - but it would be rude to go to the Holden V8 forum and attempt to convert them. We would not like it if they tried to convert us - fights and arguments would eventuate in either case. So it should be with religion.

BTW, educational systems began in ancient Egypt and were first formalised by the ancient Greeks, many hundred years of years BC. The Greeks also began the idea of the justice system and the courts - the symbol of justice, the scales, began at that time. The Egyptians had worker contracts (the pyramids were built by contract workers, not slaves), as well as the largest library in the ancient world, at Alexandria. Religion does many good things today but can't take the credit for the way our society works. There are good reasons for the separation of church and state.

it could only be true religion if it didnt take sides and didnt kill anyone even if a politician tells u to do so

Pete, I think it's a little simplistic separating religion and nationalism. Often it takes the form of religious nationalism, which is worse than either of the two on their own.

Also, I think that books like the bible etc might have been good to live by and as a method for teaching morals way back when (could have been written for this reason I would imagine), but in this day and age when you have to skip so many passages because they boil down to feudalism and outdated views we should look elsewhere for guidance.
This can be seen by those who take ambiguous passages literally and use it to justify their (extremist or otherwise) actions. It's ambiguous, which means it's either badly written or outdated or both. Why should one then look to it for guidance when you can find it elsewhere. Maybe they can't.

Grogy, everyone takes sides. It's whether you take sides for other's benefit or for your own personal gain that's the issue.

Wild1, what you say has some merit, what I think we discount is the force of that nationalism/tribalism. Religion is only one part of tribalism. People start thinking in pack us VS them mentality. What happened in Northern Ireland was pure tribalism. It just ended up being stamped with the protestant/catholic stamps just like the public/catholic school thing that's been mentioned.
Hitlers actions toward the Jews in WW2 were a masterstroke of socio-religious deception. He found a scapegoat for germanies problems and used it to terrifying effect. This is tribalism at it's worst. I also agree that building of the modern Israel in 1948 was politically inept (not to mention highly theologically suspect).

Re the bible; it's main purpose is to talk about Jesus. When you get that clear, it makes a lot more sense.

Phil74Camper wrote:Do we really need religion to teach us morals? Surely we can work out ourselves what is right and wrong? We know that stealing, murder, child molestation and racisim, for example, is wrong and always has been.

BTW, educational systems began in ancient Egypt and were first formalised by the ancient Greeks, many hundred years of years BC. The Greeks also began the idea of the justice system and the courts - the symbol of justice, the scales, began at that time.

Greek society and education was built on pederasty. 😠

p.s. this is an awesome debate. love the way people are thrashing these things out with respect for eachother. Good work guys. 👍

I think you've given us the bum steer about the Greeks, Pete!

^ bad joke dude! 🤪

yeah, ok, I'll cop that. Plato's 'republic' was the first serious document to think about education. Thing was, it was education for the elite and pederasty was the norm in Greece too (although Plato wrote against it). Christianity brought education to the masses. Protestants after the reformation (same time as the enlightenment) wanted everyone to read the bible (in their own language) so they taught everyone to read. Most universities were started Christian institutions, but have moved away from that. Eg. My wife's grandfather went to Cambridge during the 20s. He came out as a minister as well an engineer. On a sidenote, he invented the rolling road dyno for F1 cars.

But it's been seen that religion far too often breeds tribalism. In fact, that's one of the reasons why religion leads to the kinds of atrocities as we have seen in the past (just look at the crusades!).

Also, just because a particular religion started something or brought something to the people is no reason to justify it's continued existence. Christianity might have been needed to bring education to the masses, but:
a) we shouldn't all think that it would not have happened otherwise, and
b) is no reason whatsoever to keep it. We have schools now (and hopefully with religion kept out of them - but I shan't open that can of worms)

You may be right about point A. Although, there were thousands of years of education prior to that and it never en mass anywhere else.

As for point B, well I'm going to have to dissagree with you. 😉

Phil74Camper wrote:I think the Cronulla riot thing was based on redneck racisim and the 'us vs the mussos' thing.

You need to delve into what the real issue is here, and not be blinded and brainwashed with the rubbish the media only allow you to see...

The problem we have as a society is that everyone has to be politically correct, and care about everyone else's "feelings" so that we are seen as being tolerant!
Yet on the other side of the fence, under your very nose, they try and change your world/beliefs/laws so that we comply with them.......look outside your own backyard and have a look at Europe, they are too far gone now to change anything back......

To set the record straight I do believe in God and do believe in helping one another for the benefit of mankind , not stealing, gambling etc.
I don't go to a building called "church" to put my faith in a man that stands up the front saying this and that...A lot of people are misdirected by the truth.

I talk to God/Jesus directly, and confess to him direct.

There is a lot of information out there, all one has to do is open their eyes to see what is actually in front of them.

God bless.

pete, everyone takes sides for their own personal benefit, the hard part is to do it without hurting others,and hopefully they can benefit also. but if we do it because we are right, and it does hurt others then we are probably not right anyway

But isn't that (Cronulla) mainly about entrenched poverty and the frustration arising out of that?

Mick058 wrote:i think they are all good and fair points, but religion also gets generalized. There are many many great things that come from peoples belief that act in a positive way towards the world. There is obviously a good argument either way.

Personally i think its best to assess it case by case, person by person, church by church and so on. MY personal belief comes from an understanding of the bible - i believe that the bible is God breathed, which basically means the bible is Gods direct word to us.

I think culture is also different now - those born in the 50s, 60s and possibly 70s were probably forced to go to church, or follow their parents way, at least thats what i see of the Christian faith. I think today its more of a personal choice rather then one pushed on you by your parents etc.

Religion may have casued many wars and deaths, but the flip side is that it has also given love, acceptance and understanding when people have needed it, community work and helping the poor, raising money for good causes etc.

Generalised statements don't really help, its up to an individual to find out for themselves what they believe and why - for me i look to Jesus as the perfect witness and i believe in that. I go to an Anglican church, but i wouldn't call myself an anglican, i would call myself a Christian.

This doesn't make me better than anyone else either. Christians a generally seen as hypocrites because they don't practice what they preach - i try my hardest but i dont practice what i preach, its hard work - All true Christians would say that they are sinners and need forgiveness.

Agree with you on all points there Mick.

Best thing I have heard in regards to religion who most then relate directly/indirectly to christianity was that christianity is a chosen lifestyle NOT a religon. In today's society most religons you hear about are the extremists who are full of traditions, secret meetings and an abundance of rules that most of us would see as ridiculous. Unfortunately the media like to tar everyone with the same brush so to speak with regards to religion comparing say the local baptist church to the church of scientology. There is no comparison as one is a church who is trying to serve the local community with good deeds and the other is just simply made by a man who invented a totally bizarre set of rules for those who wish to follow who are then sworn to secrecy about what goes on behind doors.

If you choose to be a member of the church of scientology then that's great but you cannot compare something like that to your more mainstream traditional churches so to speak. My wife works in the media and tells me how they love to run stories on religion as they know it's highly debatable and will get people talking. Unfortunately they really don't care who's image is tarnished with incorrect accusations as it sells papers/ gets good ratings for TV etc etc.

Not to say all accusations are false but I would love to see a story run with a totally non biased approach so the people can then decide for themselves.

It's the media's way of bible bashing if you think about it. they will slant their angle on a story and force their opinion on you till you start to believe it instead of making a rational decision for yourself.

I find the most opinionated people in regards to religion or anti religion are those who have never really tried it in any form or as it was stated above were dragged to church kicking and screaming by their parents when they were young.


And I agree with some comments made here but not others but certainly respect everyone's point of view and the fact that a topic like this is being discussed in such a rational respectfull way.

This certainly tells me a lot about VW owners....

not just educated and smart folk for driving them but also learned in many other things too👍

Flintstones wrote:To set the record straight I do believe in God and do believe in helping one another for the benefit of mankind , not stealing, gambling etc.
I don't go to a building called "church" to put my faith in a man that stands up the front saying this and that...A lot of people are misdirected by the truth.

I talk to God/Jesus directly, and confess to him direct.

There is a lot of information out there, all one has to do is open their eyes to see what is actually in front of them.

God bless.

I love to talk more about this flintstones. Send me a PM.

Grogy, there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.

.....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.....

How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.❓
On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!! 👍

Wild1 wrote:Pete, I think it's a little simplistic separating religion and nationalism. Often it takes the form of religious nationalism, which is worse than either of the two on their own.

Also, I think that books like the bible etc might have been good to live by and as a method for teaching morals way back when (could have been written for this reason I would imagine), but in this day and age when you have to skip so many passages because they boil down to feudalism and outdated views we should look elsewhere for guidance.
This can be seen by those who take ambiguous passages literally and use it to justify their (extremist or otherwise) actions. It's ambiguous, which means it's either badly written or outdated or both. Why should one then look to it for guidance when you can find it elsewhere. Maybe they can't.

Great thread guys, good to see it staying so clean.

In regards to this, in part i agree, but true study of the bible and understanding of how to read it properly takes years - its a book that needs to be read in its context in parts, including cultural context and context within the bible as a whole. Some bits a literal, others require closer study. The bible is an amazing book and spans over 1000's of years in the making.
Its God inspired (in the bibles view). In saying that though, anyone can pick up a bible and have an understanding, especially with what Jesus says in the New testament.
I wouldn't say it was outdated either - if you read Old testament writings (approx. 1500 years before Christ) and read what they get upto, you find that the writings in the New testament explain the same. Today isn't much different really -the 'sins' the bible talks about and the way in which people act, in my personal opinion, is the same today as it was in the bible writing times - maybe what has changed a little is what is culturally acceptable, but what drives those motives in a person seems to be the same.

Flintstone - True, 'Church' shouldnt be a building - the bible is pretty clear in saying that the 'church' is the people that make it up. The wealth spent in 'buildings' is a little disappointing in my view.
I'm a weekly church attendee (let alone other weekly things that go on) and my reason for church is fellowship and teaching - i find it quite difficult to live a Christian life and church is a way in meeting with others and being encouraged by others who find it just as hard.

when you die you are dead!
religion is for people who are scared by that
you can only live on through your children its that simple

MickH wrote:.....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.....

How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.❓
On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!! 👍

Just in defense of 'paid ministry' - I think its quite a big decision to make to work full time for God. Most ministers (at least within my understanding of the Anglican system) have full university degrees - the pay would be quite different between the 2. (most of them seem to be engineers!)
Also, from the ministers at my church, man they work hard - it really is FULL time ministry. Way above and beyond what they get 'paid' to do. Ministry comes from the desire to want to share the hope that you have in Christ.
A church runs on people serving each other - paid ministers give themselves full time to the Gospel of Jesus and the money they get paid helps them provide for their family's.

Everyone has decisions to maker in their lives....Pete's comment was incorrect as he gains personally from what he does,which is a decision he made.

MickH wrote:.....there are some of us that take sides with nothing to gain for ourselves, but I see your point.....

How can you say that Pete??? Isn't it your JOB...you get PAID to do what you do so you gain somethng out of it.❓

Fair question. Let me explain.

I get paid a "stipend". This is a living allowance that frees me up to work for the church. It pays my bills and allows me not to worry about financial things so that I can concentrate on talking to people about Jesus and helping them. And if more people become followers of Jesus, I don't benefit financially. The church I work for will have more money to do more ministry and help more people, but I don't profit from it at all. Let me be straight up with you and tell you my income before tax is not quite $38k. Now I do have an expense account, but that pays for any other work expenses (of which there are many). I have 3 kids and my wife doesn't work. I'm not in it for the cash.

zjm, with respect, I think we all know deep down there is more than just this life. I want to see people live forever. Jesus promises that for us and our kids... if we trust him.

If I didn't truly think Jesus was the answer to our world's problems, I'd be making $$$$ out of music for a living (something I passed up) and racing porsches on the weekends. I'd be living for me and no one else. I'm sure I'd be miserable too. There was a time when I didn't believe and I was miserable.

Jesus helps me to see it's not about me it's about him.

Jesus = Prozac then Pete?

pete wood wrote:I want to see people live forever.

Delusional.

Stick to Prozac. It does less damage to your brain.

I'm sure he is speaking MetaPhysically

I miss DoubleCab.. It was my faith to harass the hell out of him (ooh.. I said Hell.. Is that a religious statement?)

HotRodMatt wrote:

pete wood wrote:I want to see people live forever.

Delusional.

Stick to Prozac. It does less damage to your brain.

MickH wrote:On a side note it's great to see everyone sharing opinions without getting too carried away.Keep it up!!! 👍

Well said, this is about the most constructive 'religion' thread I have ever seen. Most collapse into anarchy in a few pages, but this has generally been very positive.

I'll throw my 2c in. I have a faith, but I only discovered it later in life - so I totally agree with everyone who gets jacked off by bible bashers or other 'in your face' recruitment styles. I try to live my life according to my beliefs. If people ask me a question about my faith, then I give them a straight answer. I don't go looking to ram it down other peoples throats - and conversly I don't appreciate it when others try to "convert" me to their faith or lack thereof. I get particularly annoyed by those who seek to belittle my faith with "facts", when their goal is simply to commence an arguement that I have no interest in pursuing.

Everyone has to believe in something, but no-one should force anyone else to believe the same thing.

volumex wrote:Everyone has to believe in something, but no-one should force anyone else to believe the same thing.

that's true. well said.

by that measure, we need see that atheism is a religion of sorts too.

btw, I was speaking literally when I said "forever".

religion is fantastic ....if you lack the mental capacity to cope with life without it its great to have a shoulder to lean on for those less fortunate in an array circumstances fundamentalism in all its guises is something to beware of
for the rest of us spontaneous goodness might suffice
but i reckon stealing is very wrong if you you kids or your friends want to steal something and make it acceptable just say we "discovered" it
make up excuses like "well the previous owners were not going to use it to the full potential that i have"
'the previous owners are just savages anyway" etc etc
if you really believe stealing is wrong and you live in Australia poll / lobby your local reps to give it ALL back and all the foreign revenue earned from exporting its natural resources to its owners and prepare to pay RENT!!!! yep even the so called "dole bludgers"
still don't like the idea of stealing??????

No doubt the idea of an afterlife is a powerful and conforting notion, particulary as you start getting on in years and you realise that your time on earth is slowly running out. But I just can't belileve it. It raises more questions than it answers.

For example, are humans the only creatures that have an afterlife? Have all humans through history had an afterlife? Do you have to be a christian to have an afterlife - what if you are a follower of another religion? What about native African, American or Australian people, particularly those who haven't come into contact with Christians, if that is a requirement? The ancient Egyptians believed in afterlife - at least for the Pharoahs - what about the rest of the population? What about the people who were born before Christ was born? What about the people who lived in ancient China, or the Aztecs, Mayans, Vikings and so on?

If people have afterlives, what about chimpanzees? Gorillas? Surely a dog who spends its life doing devoted work, showing emotion, and intelligence, also deserves an afterlife? What about cats? Hamsters? Koalas? Dolphins? Fish? Eagles? Budgies? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Where do you draw the line?

And even if we do have an afterlife, how does it work? Do you spend eternity at the age (and condition) that you die? Does an invalid who dies at 90 spend eternity like that? Does a cot death baby spend eternity as an infant? A child killed in a car crash spend eternity as a child? Or do you get to choose? If you get married several times, which spouse do you get to spend eternity with? If you meet your ancestors (such as your dead parents/grandparents etc), are you all the same age? How would they see you?

It just seems so unlikely to me. My own opinion is that we altready know what it's like to be dead - you think back to what it was like in the years before you were born. You just weren't around.

I like the idea of reincarnation too, but there are reasons why it can't work either.

Pete I have to disagree with you about athiesm being a religion. You can't believe in something that you don't believe! I do believe in the law of gravity, and the theory of electromagnetism, and that pi is an irrational number (to give just a few examples). But I don't see how that can be a 'religion'.

You would have to agree there are Atheists that exhibit a religious style of attitude to their beliefs and evangelise people to convert. Richard Dawkins comes to mind.

I agree that the afterlife raises questions. And it seems hard to find answers. We want someone relialble to tell us what it's like. Someone who's been there.

Yes you are right, although I'd say that some overly pushy athiests might exhibit a religious style of attitude to their LACK of beliefs. Personally I am not a believer, but I'm not going to try to influence or 'convert' anyone away from religious faith. If I did I would be as bad as the pushy 'bible bashers' we've already mentioned. I'm only going to say that I don't believe, and I'll tell you the reasons why if you ask me.

Skepticism does have its place, mostly in the fields of debunking obvious nonsense such as astrology, tarot, iridoloogy, clairvoyance, auras, talking to the dead, divining, energies unknown to science and the like, things that can be put to scientific testing. Particularly where it preys on the less well informed to extract money from them (how many Brock Orgone Energy Polarisers were sold?). I don't think personal religious faith comes into that. Things like fundamental creationism, religious persecution, cults, crimes committed by clergy etc of course, would, and rightly so.

One problem I see with believing (strongly) in an afterlife is that it may lead to a lack of appreciation of the value of human life. Would suicide bombers still volunteer to carry out their heinous crimes if they didn't think they were going to heaven with x number of virgins? If more people had the idea that once you're dead, you're dead, killings and wars might be greatly reduced.

I also have a mate who became seriously 'born again' (if you know what I mean) 20 or so years ago. I remember once he said to me, "Wow, I can hardly wait until I'm dead." That made me very sad to hear that. He is far more moderate today (thanks to getting married and having kids), but he still has his personal faith, which is great for him.

Phil74Camper wrote:One problem I see with believing (strongly) in an afterlife is that it may lead to a lack of appreciation of the value of human life.

And how much better is it when people do "good" for reasons other than the ludicrous concept of an eternal reward after you're dead?

I also have a mate who became seriously 'born again' (if you know what I mean) 20 or so years ago. I remember once he said to me, "Wow, I can hardly wait until I'm dead." That made me very sad to hear that. He is far more moderate today (thanks to getting married and having kids), but he still has his personal faith, which is great for him.

For me my faith brings meaning, a meaning to this life and an understanding of why things are the way they are.
I wouldn't say "Wow, I can hardly wait until I'm dead." But i do look forward to eternity. Just imagine the Christian point of view of 'eternity' - even if you personally don't believe it, it is a great thing for a Christian to look forward to.
To me there is too much 'order' in creation for there not to be a creator. I believe in the Christian God (if we want to label it that) because i believe in the truth of the bible and i have seen the changes of my 'conversion' (this word holds to many negative connotation). I was a very different person before i came to faith. I had no christian family and wasn't depressed or in need of another lifestyle, i just came to faith because to me it makes sense.
It deserves careful study before rejecting the idea - unfortunately there are too many bad examples of a 'Christian' that create so many negative views.

theres a big diff between bible bashing [sharing something u belive in, u dont have to agree] and literally bashing, which is what many so called religions do to further their cause, or the political agenda from where they live,

just imagine the aboriginals faces when the christians after taking all the land children and dignity educated them about the commandments of "god"

dont use the lords name in vain

honour your father and mother (you remember the ppl we stole you from)

do not kill (this doesnt include savages)

dont commit adultery (unless she is a pretty young savage)

do not steal (we discovered your land we didnt steal it)

dont bear false witness (again we didnt steal your land)

thou shalt not covet

even though they had been there for 130000yrs +++ we felt the need to "Help" them through our religion

to many, religion is a very powerful and very useful tool

correct me if i am mistaken but Jesus was a carpenter not a paid minister

and to say that mass education is a legacy of christianity is a eurocentric view that all scholars of asian history would find laughable and at the same time predictable


the pope just managed to come to Australia (my daughters both went to see him) can anyone fill me in on his planned visit to Dafur Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Kiribati, Laos, Lesotho, Liberia, Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Niger, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé and Príncipe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Sudan, East Timor, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, Tanzania, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia

seems like these countries need all the help they can get

God I am so glad there are still people posting like this on AVWD 😏

Religion, OK don't get me started 😁

If it makes people happy and it is not hurting anyone else then people should be free to believe what they want

People have always believed in a creator, and there are so many similarities with tribal beliefs all over the world

Organised religion is very bound up in politics and has been used against minorities throughout history

People do interpret the writings to meet their own ends

There are many good people in all religions, and a few baddies who go spoil it all

OK that was very brief cos I have to log off again

Stay cool👍

fyi..

i currently have my outstretched palm on my monitor.. (pause.. total concentration)

demons..

Demons..

DEMONS OUT!!

i hope that fixes all ur problems in life peeps.. 😀

newoldmanx wrote:just imagine the aboriginals faces when the christians after taking all the land children and dignity educated them about the commandments of "god"

dont use the lords name in vain

honour your father and mother (you remember the ppl we stole you from)

do not kill (this doesnt include savages)

dont commit adultery (unless she is a pretty young savage)

do not steal (we discovered your land we didnt steal it)

dont bear false witness (again we didnt steal your land)

thou shalt not covet

even though they had been there for 130000yrs +++ we felt the need to "Help" them through our religion

I suspect it was just as foreign as everything else that white settlement brought.

Lets just remember though, there is a difference between European opportunism and real Christianity. Christianity means following Jesus and should be selfless service to others in his name. Opportunism is something entirely different and is about what people can take for themselves. There are a lot of people who say they are "Christians" but are certainly not "following Jesus". This is why middle eastern Islam has such a low view of "Christianity". Look what greedy people have done in the name of Jesus. Let's not confuse these people with real Christians. Watch what people do, not what they say. This is not to say that real Christians are perfect, but at least they are trying to head in the right direction.

correct me if i am mistaken but Jesus was a carpenter not a paid minister

When Jesus gave up carpentry, other people financially supported his ministry. So in that capacity, he was a paid minister. No he didn't stay in one spot or have a bank account, but yes he was financially backed by believers.

and to say that mass education is a legacy of christianity is a eurocentric view that all scholars of asian history would find laughable and at the same time predictable

And yet the protestant reformation brought just this. Anywhere protestant Christians went, they started schools so that people could read the bible for themselves, in their own language if at all possible. Most Universities started as Christian education institutions. Now, that's not to say they forced people to believe the bible, but at least they could make up their own mind. Prior to this, for a 1000 years, only priests could read the bible in Latin and only the church in Rome was sanctioned to tell you what it meant...and they often twisted it. That's why the reformation happened in the first place. Luther and Zwingli read the bible in the original languages and found large differences between what it said and what the Roman Catholic church was teaching.

And yes, I too disagree with the pope on a multitude of things.

Sorry to interupt guys and here I can only speak for myself, but what I fear most is that when I'm on my deathbed isn't whether or not there is to be an afterlife (or an 'apres vie'- you need to read hitch hikers guide for that one) but having missed out on all the things I hadn't done. I certainly won't regret anything I had done as most of them were fun👍 And what could be more disappointing than if you have been strictly religious all of your life and then suddenly having the revelation that this was it, nothing more, and you've missed out on all the partying and women and partying and women and party....sorry I've already covered that. But just in case though I have been led to believe that if there is a god he'll forgive me anyway so I win both ways.....now back to that party👍

So what happens if you get killed on the way to work tomorrow??

If you haven't asked for forgiveness you know what happens next.....

When you're dead you're dead.Worm food etc.....

A friend said to me last night she heard two athiests (one serious, one not) talking about whether it mattered if there was a God. The serious athiest said, "if God does exist, we're in a lot of trouble". Funny thing was, even though he doesn't think there is one, he apparently looked very concerned. I often wonder whether Atheism is a way of avoiding responsibility for most people. It's the whole "if He doesn't exist, I don't have to answer to Him" concept.

Some people protest too hard that there is not a God. You know what they say about protesting too much. Food for thought. 😉

Interesting points there Pete. I don't understand why a thinking athiest should be concerned at the possibilty he is wrong. Athiesm is not a belief system, it is the lack of a belief system! He starts with the assumption that there is no God. A Christian then tells comes along and tells him what SHE belileves, and why, perhaps with the goal of making him a believer too. A good athiest will listen with an open mind (and NOT dismiss out of hand!), and then point out his perceived problems with the belief, or the reasons, or both. He should look at the reasons. He ought to take time to do some further study, if required. He might then say, 'sorry, based on that evidence, I don't believe it.' On the other hand, he might find the reasons convincing, in which case he might become a new believer.

But in either case, it should be based on what evidence he sees. It is not up to the athiest to 'prove' there is no God - that's impossible. The athiest is starting from the 'blank' position. The believer is the one making the proposition for a God existing, so the burden of proof lies with them. It is like proposing that two-headed, omnipotent purple aliens live on the planet Cylon. I can't prove that statemen is wrong, but I don't have to. I start by assuming they don't exist. If you propose the aliens exist, then YOU have the burden of proof. Show me! They might very well exist, and you might believe with all your heart that they do. But until there is evidence, I don't accept it.

Maybe the purple aliens do exist after all. But if they do, am I trouble for not believing, based on insufficient evidence reaching me? If so, why?

The serious athiest Pete describes, sounds more to me like an agnostic who wants to hedge his bets! Certainly the Christian beliefs of a glorious afterlife for the faithful would be very comforting on one's deathbed (one of the reasons it is popular?). But I don't believe it, so I reckon that's taking, not avoiding, responsibility. And we can't keep trashing the earth and each other, and say 'Don't worry, Jesus will come back soon and fix everything.' Why should I believe that? We need to take responsibility ourselves.

Pete is right, some people do protest too hard, saying there is no God. But I would think that lots more people protest too hard that there IS.

One of my favourite bits of graffitti was near Milton Station it said "God made athiest's too" Now who do your reckon wrote it? A believer or a non-believer?

We need some that says, "Atheism was an accident"

Think about it. 😉

Or better still "religion is a lie for the weak minded"

Think about it🤓

aw karn, that's old. come up with something different. I'm bored with it.

BTW, I'm bored with religion too. Not into religion at all.

Sorry,forgot you were into cults...but if you were brainwashed at an early age I suppose thats all you know.When my eldest comes home from school and tells me what he's "learnt about jesus" it cracks me up with some of the crap they fill young minds with. But being open minded and not one to push my beliefs onto anyone else I chose to send him there (to a christian school) to be aware of "both sides of the story" so he can make up his own mind when he is older.The education is sooo much better at a private school thanks to government funding👍👍

"The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction."

"The American Heritage Dictionary defines a Christian as "one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."

I thought you were into that stuff Pete??? So as a minister you're not into Religion???? Your starting to sound like the bible.🤘

MickH wrote:Sorry,forgot you were into cults...but if you were brainwashed at an early age I suppose thats all you know.When my eldest comes home from school and tells me what he's "learnt about jesus" it cracks me up with some of the crap they fill young minds with. But being open minded and not one to push my beliefs onto anyone else I chose to send him there (to a christian school) to be aware of "both sides of the story" so he can make up his own mind when he is older.The education is sooo much better at a private school thanks to government funding👍👍

"The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction."

"The American Heritage Dictionary defines a Christian as "one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus."

I thought you were into that stuff Pete??? So as a minister you're not into Religion???? Your starting to sound like the bible.🤘

well said mick ❗

"believers"

we need more ministers

who would support us if we were all ministers 🙅

do you think "god" would be pleased that we squander money on hobby cars while his children starve around the globe what would jesus have done
gods children -- our "brothers and sisters" children men and women starving to death

this message may or may not be inspired by god

it may not have been gods will that you read this or it may have been just that

what would jesus have done 😍

"One of my favourite bits of graffitti was near Milton Station it said "God made athiest's too" Now who do your reckon wrote it? A believer or a non-believer?"

Who can say? I only know it was written by someone who doesn't know how to use an apostrophe correctly.

Religion must take some of the blame for 'children starving to death around the world.' Lack of contraception in developing countries is a major reason for overpopulation and subsequent starvation. Teaching about birth control would be a good start - and keep religious beliefs out of it. And Australia is one of the highest givers of foreign aid, per head of population, in the world. We already give generously to charities, so go point your moral radar somewhere else.

What would Jesus have done about what? What would Socrates have done? Ghengis Khan? Shakespeare? Galileo? Florence Nightingale? Fred Hollows?

MickH wrote:I thought you were into that stuff Pete??? So as a minister you're not into Religion???? Your starting to sound like the bible.🤘

religious practice? no I'm not into that at all.

I'm into faith and relationship. I pray when every I want, I help others whenever and wherever I want. There's no need for practice because I have absolute freedom to do what I like. I choose to use my freedom to serve Jesus and talk about him.

I'm pleased you think I sound like the bible. That's my aim. 👍

BTW, Christianity didn't cause world poverty. If we all followed Jesus teaching poverty wouldn't exist.

Also ask yourself where the great Aussie ethic of "giving people a fair go" comes from. It's not Greek Philosophy (democracy was only for rich men) or Egyptian teaching (they had slaves remember), it comes from Jesus teaching. Look what happened after the Pacific Tsunami. Who gave all the aid to the Islamic countries? From what I understand it wasn't other Islamic countries. Why is that?

When you point the gun at "religion", you're not pointing it at a bunch of beliefs that are all the same.

Muhommad said God talked to him and killed people, Jesus says he is God and was killed but rose again, Budha said God didn't really exist as such, Hindu says there a millions of Gods, Atheism says none of them were God because God doesn't exist. All of them say they are telling the truth.

Truth is important. Which one of them is telling the truth? I don't think that figuring out the truth is as simple as people make out.

BTW, I'm still enjoying this discussion. It's great that it's not descending into personal attacks. 👍

MickH wrote:"The American Heritage Dictionary defines a Christian as ...

Don't worry about definitions. The early members of the cult of Christ still called themselves Jews. And the biggest so-called Apostle, a Roman mad-man that the rest of them - who actually knew the Essene Jew called Jesus - shunned is responsible for most of the ravings that make up what is accepted as Christian teaching.

pete wood wrote:...or Egyptian teaching (they had slaves remember)

And Christian ministers have selective memories...

Abraham - the godly and righteous - so godly and righteous he owned 318 slaves! [genesis 14:14]

Australia gave more aid to the Tsunami victims, particularly in Indonesia, than any other country. Our military did most of the physical work with transport, airlifts, evacuation, sandbagging, food drops etc. Many people donated to relief funds, including me. The religion of them and me (or not) didn't matter - it was helping fellow humans in distress. Of course I don't remember Indonesia coming to our aid when Cyclone Tracy demolished Darwin in 1974.

Pete can you explain why poverty would not exist today if we all followed Jesus's teachings? We have a world population today of 7 billion and growing, arable land limited and shrinking, diminsihing fresh water, bulk power sources (fossil fuels) running out and starvation and disease still rife in many parts of the world. What did Jesus say that would fix this?

I agree, no one can say with any authority that their beliefs are the 'truth'. It's a matter of personal faith. In an ideal world we would all have our own beliefs and live happily with them and each other, but sadly that isn't the case. Problems occur when a group with belief 'A' try to subjugate a group with belief 'B', which is the whole history of religious war. I won't criticise anyone else's faith, but I can't see how one supernatural belief is any more or less valid than another. I prefer to stick with 'truths' that can be demonstrated via the scientific method - such as F=ma, CH4 + 2O2 = CO2 + 2H2O + energy, pi is irrational, the Sun is 1,392,000 km in diameter, light travels at 300,000 km/sec, the earth is 4.6 billion years old, and so on and so on.

Then you get splinter groups - those with belief A break into belief A1 and A2, and then A1a and A1b etc etc). What do Shiite and Sunni moslems have against one another, for example? It even happens with car clubs - Club Veedub Sydney began originally as a breakaway from the then NSW VW Club, as one group had different beliefs from another (purely VWs or all-marques in the club), and boy was there a 'war' for a few years. Today it has settled down and the NSW VW Club was merged into Club VW earlier this year. But in addition, over the last ten years at least two other groups of Club VW members decided to leave and start their own clubs - which they are entitled to do. Some of them are still going; some have folded and come back. That's life!

Yes Pete I'm enjoying the discussion too. VW enthusiasts must be very special people - not like those Holden fans !! (just kidding)

HotRodMatt wrote:

pete wood wrote:...or Egyptian teaching (they had slaves remember)

And Christian ministers have selective memories...

Abraham - the godly and righteous - so godly and righteous he owned 318 slaves! [genesis 14:14]

And so did Roman Christians during the first few centuries. Please don't oversimplify things by plugging 21st century morality into Ancient times. There was big differences between Roman, Ancient near eastern and Modern (15-18th century) slavery.

Capitalism has created slaves out of many 3rd world workers.

That's exactly what I expected, glad you didn't let me down Pete.

You bring up the Egyptians with distain for their adoption of slavery but when the daddy of all the peoples of the book (including you christians) is brought up you say "nah that isn't valid".

You opened the gate, you addressed ancient morality in terms of today. But I do it and it's not fair.


You can't discuss or reason anything with the "faithful". Their arrogance is embedded and they can never ever be wrong. After all, god is on their side.

Phil, most world poverty has come from capitalism, government corruption and war. Irish potato famine is a good example. There were more than enough potatoes in Ireland to feed the Irish, the problem is that they were exported overseas by rich lander owners.

Jesus taught people to love their neighbours and pray for their enemies. If everyone did that no one starve or want for a job. If it sounds idealistic it's because most people left it just as an idea.

My comment about Australia's generosity is where does that concept come from? It's a cultural pillar, but where did it come from?

From memory, After Mohammad died his followers split. Sunnis were formed by Mohammads Daughters (he only had daughters). Shiites were formed by his followers.

Splinter groups can be troublesome, but sometimes it's the best way to deal with differences peacefully. It's when they start saying, "we are the only real _____s" that things get nasty.

I like science, I like the things it has provided. The problem is, it can only observe things and describe how they happen. I want to know WHY they happen. Also, there are a heap of things that science can't prove, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Like 'humour' for instance. Try and prove that. 😂

HotRodMatt wrote:That's exactly what I expected, glad you didn't let me down Pete.

You bring up the Egyptians with distain for their adoption of slavery but when the daddy of all the peoples of the book (including you christians) is brought up you say "nah that isn't valid".

You opened the gate, you addressed ancient morality in terms of today. But I do it and it's not fair.

I repent Matt. You're right. 🙂

I will say this though. The bible never said Abraham was perfect. Just that he had faith in God.

Hang in there Pete.. Total respect to you. And that doesn't mean I agree, just that I respect your values and your faith.. I am sure that the values you have are implicit in most decent people, regardless of their faith.

It is easier to knock something down rather than try and keep it standing..

My understanding was that the potato famine was caused by the fungal disease Phytophthora Infestans, or 'late blight', which was native to Mexico. It apparently reached Europe on a shipment of seed potatoes in 1845 and rapidly wiped out the Irish potato crop for five years, causing a million people to starve to death and millions more to emigrate to the USA. Modern science can control the blight (with some difficulty, apparently), but the technology didn't exist to do anything about it in 1845. I disagree that there were still 'more than enough potatoes to feed the Irish'. Food had to be imported INTO Ireland to stop people starving. Any political intrigue concerning providing (or not providing) food relief at the time is a separate issue.

I'm afraid there's just too many people in the world, and not enough resources, to feed everyone to our 21st century western standards, no matter how much we might love one another and pray. It's a lovely vision, and perhaps achieveable in 30 AD if everyone had played along, but not today. Just imagine the resources that 1,200 million Chinese and 1,100 million Indians would consume to give them the same standard of living as 21 million Australians ! Sadly, famine somewhere is inevitable and unavoidable, and will only increase in years to come. I've read of scenarios where the next war will be fought over water, not oil.

Science is the best tool - really the only tool - we have to explain HOW things work. Importantly, science doesn't only observe and describe, but it also has the unique property to accurately predict. Science can answer many WHY questions, depending on the framing of the question. Why does the sun rise, why is the sky blue, why does the moon wobble, why do more fish live in cold oceans than warm? Cause and effect is the backbone of many sciences. There is no shame in saying "I don't know" if your knowledge is incomplete, and science tries to make our knowledge a little less incomplete every day.

But you can play the 7-year old game and just keep asking 'WHY' ad infinitum (my daughter is getting good at it). Ultimately, there may not be any ultimate answer to WHY - it just is.

I'm not sure what you mean by science 'proving humour exists' - in what sense? If you can observe it, measure it, test it, repeat it, then it passes the scientific test. It's easy to do all of that for humour. I find plenty of evidence for it every time I watch a tape of Dave Allen, or Monty Python, or Fawlty Towers, or even Graham Kennedy on Blankety Blanks. I'm still looking for evidence of humour in US TV shows (apart from Tom and Jerry, and the Roadrunner cartoons), but I hope to find some one day.

HotRodMatt wrote:That's exactly what I expected, glad you didn't let me down Pete.

You bring up the Egyptians with distain for their adoption of slavery but when the daddy of all the peoples of the book (including you christians) is brought up you say "nah that isn't valid".

You opened the gate, you addressed ancient morality in terms of today. But I do it and it's not fair.


You can't discuss or reason anything with the "faithful". Their arrogance is embedded and they can never ever be wrong. After all, god is on their side.

The only true perfect man was Jesus - thats kinda the point - Moses was a whinger, Paul (saul) was a Christian hater, Noah was a drunkard at times, King David though he had a heart for God, slept with a another mans wife and got her pregnant and organised the killing of her husband.

Christians aren't perfect, we're as sinful as the rest. Faith through Jesus and his redemption of our sins is how we are saved (in my opininon 😎) Our response because of that is to attempt to live as close to Christs example as we can. IT's a matter of attitude and heart - not just outward perfection.

If you read the bible closely, it would be hard to believe that someone could of made it up...(there is more to why i believe then that though)

i dont particularly like the word religion, and i wouldn't call myself religious - just faithful in the teachings of Jesus. When people twist the bible for their own causes, thats why these wars and so on happen - in my view its still a result of someones greed or sin - religion just becomes the scapegoat.

So put up your hands those people who still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny....😂

MickH wrote:So put up your hands those people who still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny....😂

Someone out there probably would! You should google it.

MickH wrote:So put up your hands those people who still believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny....😂

you'd be surprised actually. if you offer to debunk either myth publically lots of normally easy-going people get very up in arms. I saw this for myself last Christmas.

Just as you get very "up in arms" when people try to debunk the myth you "believe" in. I think any nutcase will believe what you want them to believe. In the end everyone has some type of release in life,some people i suppose need to follow blindly what others presume while others can rely on factual information,if they are actually interested in finding "answers" Each to their own. Others just need to add more Viagra to their weetbix and harden the &^%k up.

you've just shown me a side of your breakfast routine I didn't want to see....🤪

Why ??? You scared???😵

MickH wrote:Just as you get very "up in arms" when people try to debunk the myth you "believe" in. I think any nutcase will believe what you want them to believe. In the end everyone has some type of release in life,some people i suppose need to follow blindly what others presume while others can rely on factual information,if they are actually interested in finding "answers" Each to their own. Others just need to add more Viagra to their weetbix and harden the &^%k up.

i can't agree with your 'nutcase' comment. Alot of intelligent, stable men and women i know are strong Christians (faith kind of brings a purpose to life right???). Pretty big comment to call Christian believers or any believers nutcases.

I wouldn't say people follow their respective beliefs blindly either, at least not all of them - i know i questioned lots of things and still do in order to better understand.

Some of your comments have been fair, but this ones a little too general. Same as the view point of all 'Christians are weak' and can't handle any of life's situations - too much Ned Flanders in that one 😂

Mick058 wrote:

MickH wrote:Just as you get very "up in arms" when people try to debunk the myth you "believe" in. I think any nutcase will believe what you want them to believe. In the end everyone has some type of release in life,some people i suppose need to follow blindly what others presume while others can rely on factual information,if they are actually interested in finding "answers" Each to their own. Others just need to add more Viagra to their weetbix and harden the &^%k up.

i can't agree with your 'nutcase' comment. Alot of intelligent, stable men and women i know are strong Christians (faith kind of brings a purpose to life right???). Pretty big comment to call Christian believers or any believers nutcases.

I wouldn't say people follow their respective beliefs blindly either, at least not all of them - i know i questioned lots of things and still do in order to better understand.

Some of your comments have been fair, but this ones a little too general. Same as the view point of all 'Christians are weak' and can't handle any of life's situations - too much Ned Flanders in that one 😂

Your whole post contradicts itself...read it slowly. As for Ned Flanders.......I think Mr. H. J. Simpson sums it all up nicely,especially reguarding 'ol Ned....😂

How so? Maybe im missing something...

Believing in God is part faith (as he cannot be seen) and part reason (you working out why you believe) - maybe what i call 'reason' you call 'nutty'.

A lot of people with Christian beliefs (now and through history) have devoted their lives to helping those less fortunate.. I wonder if they needed to toughen the fuck up when they were confronted with rape, massacre, leprosy, genocide, cholera, typhoid, battle wounds, intense heat and cold, flies, wild animals etc etc.. Some of the strongest people I know are the smallest in physical stature.. And some of the weakest are the largest..

Seriously it sounds like some people need to get a reality check🤪😂

religion is a fantastic idea its a pity no-one ever tried it

brainwashing is evident when someone living 2000 years after another can profess that he was the only perfect man mick i could ask how you came to know this but i already have a fair idea

on the point of slavery i think one of the "commandments" instructs not to make your servants work on the sabbath

"My comment about Australia's generosity is where does that concept come from? It's a cultural pillar, but where did it come from?"
actually modern Australia was founded on theft and slavery (unless you still believe that there was not enough room in the jails in england crap)

do you mean the stolen land we call Australia that's stolen resources are bankrolling its prosperity, that cultural pillar or the Australia that is one of three countries that has made no commitment while 19 of 22 OECD donor countries have committed to increasing or maintaining aid at a level of 0.7% of GNI.
5 of 22 countries already give 0.7% of GNI or more
my faith in science weened when as a kid i was told that if i only eat half my chocolate bar each time it would last forever

StenGuns wrote:A lot of people with Christian beliefs (now and through history) have devoted their lives to helping those less fortunate.. I wonder if they needed to toughen the fuck up when they were confronted with rape, massacre, leprosy, genocide, cholera, typhoid, battle wounds, intense heat and cold, flies, wild animals etc etc.. Some of the strongest people I know are the smallest in physical stature.. And some of the weakest are the largest..

if it were ONLY those with christian beliefs that devoted there lives yada yada yada you would have a viable point but since that is clearly not the case and the fact that a lot of ppl with christian beliefs have (now and through history) raped pillaged and plundered further dilutes your statement all it implies is that even some christians posess spontanious goodness

there is a relatively new "guru" on the block Ekhart Tolle who imo disseminates information about understanding your life in an unusually uncomplicated manner have a listen here

MickH wrote:

Mick058 wrote:

MickH wrote:Just as you get very "up in arms" when people try to debunk the myth you "believe" in. I think any nutcase will believe what you want them to believe. In the end everyone has some type of release in life,some people i suppose need to follow blindly what others presume while others can rely on factual information,if they are actually interested in finding "answers" Each to their own. Others just need to add more Viagra to their weetbix and harden the &^%k up.

i can't agree with your 'nutcase' comment. Alot of intelligent, stable men and women i know are strong Christians (faith kind of brings a purpose to life right???). Pretty big comment to call Christian believers or any believers nutcases.

I wouldn't say people follow their respective beliefs blindly either, at least not all of them - i know i questioned lots of things and still do in order to better understand.

Some of your comments have been fair, but this ones a little too general. Same as the view point of all 'Christians are weak' and can't handle any of life's situations - too much Ned Flanders in that one 😂

Your whole post contradicts itself...read it slowly. As for Ned Flanders.......I think Mr. H. J. Simpson sums it all up nicely,especially reguarding 'ol Ned....😂

Hmmm......OK....R E A D I T S L O W L Y .......Where did I actually mention that Christians were nutcases????? That was how YOU interpreted what I wrote...which is why the Bible thing makes me laugh....the way people "interpret" what supposedly was written is a joke.The same line can have several contrastingly different interpretations,depending on what you want it to mean,yet people still only believe what they want to,or what they think they should. Hardly a sound basis in which to invest your "faith" as you put it.
In saying that,FAITH doesn't bring a purpose to life...sex does.To allow any species to evolve/exist you need to do it!!! All animals are instinctually programmed to copulate/breed.Thats what "life" is about. Ensuring the survival of a species.😍

Why does there have to be a meaning to life???

Very few people can accept that life "just is", and get on with it.

Yet the people who search for meaning via some higher power can accept that their god "just is" and call it faith???



Regards,

Matt.

(I'm pink therefore I'm spam)

MickH wrote:

MickH wrote:

Mick058 wrote:

MickH wrote:Just as you get very "up in arms" when people try to debunk the myth you "believe" in. I think any nutcase will believe what you want them to believe. In the end everyone has some type of release in life,some people i suppose need to follow blindly what others presume while others can rely on factual information,if they are actually interested in finding "answers" Each to their own. Others just need to add more Viagra to their weetbix and harden the &^%k up.

i can't agree with your 'nutcase' comment. Alot of intelligent, stable men and women i know are strong Christians (faith kind of brings a purpose to life right???). Pretty big comment to call Christian believers or any believers nutcases.

I wouldn't say people follow their respective beliefs blindly either, at least not all of them - i know i questioned lots of things and still do in order to better understand.

Some of your comments have been fair, but this ones a little too general. Same as the view point of all 'Christians are weak' and can't handle any of life's situations - too much Ned Flanders in that one 😂

Your whole post contradicts itself...read it slowly. As for Ned Flanders.......I think Mr. H. J. Simpson sums it all up nicely,especially reguarding 'ol Ned....😂

Hmmm......OK....R E A D I T S L O W L Y .......Where did I actually mention that Christians were nutcases????? That was how YOU interpreted what I wrote...which is why the Bible thing makes me laugh....the way people "interpret" what supposedly was written is a joke.The same line can have several contrastingly different interpretations,depending on what you want it to mean,yet people still only believe what they want to,or what they think they should. Hardly a sound basis in which to invest your "faith" as you put it.
In saying that,FAITH doesn't bring a purpose to life...sex does.To allow any species to evolve/exist you need to do it!!! All animals are instinctually programmed to copulate/breed.Thats what "life" is about. Ensuring the survival of a species.😍

I agree Mick, it can be hard to interpret what someone means, and the tone in which they say it - especially through written words.
I don't know you and therefore would have little knowledge on how to interpret what you say because i don't know your character etc.
The bible is a big book and is a source itself as to how to interpret it - you let scripture interpret scripture, use the bits that are clear to understand the bits which are slightly harder to understand. SO God reveals who he is through the bible and thats how you know him.

Gods first instruction was to be fruitful and increase in number and subdue the earth - sex, within the marrige context, was very much a part of Gods plan and purpose.

Again, this is my belief - im just sharing.

newoldmanx wrote:religion is a fantastic idea its a pity no-one ever tried it

brainwashing is evident when someone living 2000 years after another can profess that he was the only perfect man mick i could ask how you came to know this but i already have a fair idea

on the point of slavery i think one of the "commandments" instructs not to make your servants work on the sabbath

"My comment about Australia's generosity is where does that concept come from? It's a cultural pillar, but where did it come from?"
actually modern Australia was founded on theft and slavery (unless you still believe that there was not enough room in the jails in england crap)

do you mean the stolen land we call Australia that's stolen resources are bankrolling its prosperity, that cultural pillar or the Australia that is one of three countries that has made no commitment while 19 of 22 OECD donor countries have committed to increasing or maintaining aid at a level of 0.7% of GNI.
5 of 22 countries already give 0.7% of GNI or more
my faith in science weened when as a kid i was told that if i only eat half my chocolate bar each time it would last forever

I'd be interested to hear how you think it is i came to believe? (im not sure if i already hinted to it or not)

Found this on a BBC site. Interesting reading

The Evolutionary Advantages of Faith


If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.
- Voltaire


At some point in mankind's distant past, religious faith arose from where there was none. The concepts of spirituality and religion are a biologically-based product of evolution; adaptations that gave the possessors of this trait a distinct survival advantage: Faith.

Neurobiologists think they have found regions of the brain that are responsible for all spiritual and religious experiences, naming the new field that studies these areas 'neurotheology'. Since the only way that something as bizarre and universal as the human propensity to have faith could have arisen is if it conferred a survival advantage, this entry looks at what these advantages are, and whether indeed they exist.

Faith in the Brain

It is no coincidence that every culture and all types of people of the world have some concept of a higher power. They all have their own form of the supernatural, spirituality or religion all of which are experienced through the structure of the brains of human beings.

Spiritual experiences are so consistent across cultures, across time, and across faiths that it suggests a common core that is likely a reflection of structures and processes in the human brain.
– David Wulff, Wheaton College

It is clear from all the fascinating research that neurobiologists have undertaken that religiosity can be defined in terms of, and observed in, the hard wiring of the human brain. The structures of the brain, such as the temporal and parietal lobes, are a product of evolution. A complex and precise network of genes strictly defines the development and layout of the brain, including the structures that are responsible for the spiritual experiences described above. In biology, structure is always directly related to function. All genes are, or were, under the direct influence of evolution; therefore the ability to have powerful religious experiences has evolved. The pertinent questions are not 'if' we evolved these remarkable capabilities, but 'why?' and 'how?'

The Survival Advantages of Faith

The possessors of religious faith have a distinct survival advantage. Somewhere along mankind's evolutionary history the brain developed the ability to dissociate certain areas of itself from the rest, depriving them of sensory input, altering an individual's perception of themselves and the world around them. Electrical crackling in the temporal lobes produces vivid, ultra-real visions and voices, apparently from God. It is no surprise that humans, as social animals, organised and gathered to experience these visions together. From these deep, powerful visions and otherworldly experiences, the religions and supernatural beliefs of the world arose.

It is significant that so many people have powerful spiritual experiences sometime in their lives1 (people in their 40s and 50s are most likely to have them), and it is not detrimental to their lives. It is, in fact, beneficial. Instead of these traits being something that was excised out of the population, or kept at bay by natural selection, it became a survival advantage.

In the 1950s Viktor Frankl used to give talks to American audiences about his experiences in the concentration camps2. He would open his talks by thanking his audience for coming to hear him. They took this to be a speaker's standard courteous introduction. He then said 'I want to thank you for saving my life...'

One of the things which had sustained Frankl for two and-a-half years in the concentration camps was his belief that he could and would testify to what had happened in them. He imagined talking to the audiences who came to hear him speak a decade later. They - or rather his belief in them - had saved his life.

Frankl's experience is eloquent, but there are countless records of individuals going through extreme experiences where survival was marginal, who say that it was their faith or their vision of the future that sustained them. One Indian Army officer who was a prisoner of war of the Japanese attributed his survival to having his fortune told in the 1930s by an Indian in a bazaar. The fortune-teller said that he would die when he was 80. He did in fact die 6 weeks before his 80th birthday, some 50 years after the surrender of the Japanese.

From these two examples we might conclude that it is not the believer's deity that saves them, but their faith. Jesus Christ ascribed his miracles to the belief of those healed: 'He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."'3

This anecdotal evidence is substantiated by the numerous studies which have observed and correlated a link between religiosity and spirituality with:

* Longer life spans4
* Evolution of a pool of wisdom and experience in the form of grandparents
* Rates of survival during the holocaust of faithful against non-faithful
* Faster recovery from surgery5; faith-healing is an advantage
* Reduced risk of disease

The Survival Advantages of a Shared Faith

We have already seen that while faith can denote religious faith, there are many other kinds of faith. There is belief in a cause, faith in an individual leader and belief in one's country. All of these have similar mechanisms and similar outcomes, so the following examples have been drawn from political and other arenas.

Shared faith in a cause creates powerful and cohesive groups. The armed forces call this Esprit de Corps. George W Bush is, at the time of writing, using the patriotism of the American people to push through his military policies. It is a powerful force.

The group of scientists, pilots and engineers who put man on the moon were inspired by Kennedy's vision. Their imaginations were grabbed, and their dedication was far greater as a result. Gandhi inspired half a billion people in British India and ended British colonialism. Hitler generated the Third Reich by creating a national belief in a national destiny while Chamberlain was faffing around with an umbrella.

The shared faith that people had in these leaders and their visions inspired them to go above and beyond the call of duty, and to achieve far more in a focused direction than they would or could have achieved otherwise.

A shared faith confers a clear performance and survival advantage on a group, making it more than sum of its parts.

Spirituality and Natural Selection

Early man had no modern medicine and daily life was a struggle for survival. To have a way to manage and deal with a crisis and to boost your chances of survival after injury or illness was a massively useful trait. The only purpose of genes is to replicate themselves - they are entirely selfish entities. Natural selection preserved the quirk in brain structure, by preserving the genes responsible for the trait that promoted spirituality; those with this trait more effectively survived and flourished than those who lacked it. This trait was so successful that it spread throughout the population of early man (or perhaps even mankind’s predecessors) even before the great diaspora, when Homo Sapiens spread out and populated the globe.

Conclusion

Religious faith is a phenomenon derived from biological processes that occur in the brain. Developmental networks of genes control every aspect of the brain's anatomy, including the areas of the brain that are responsible for deep and powerful religious and spiritual experiences. All genes are, or were, under the influence of evolution; therefore, the ability to have such experiences is an evolved trait. This trait, which spawned the religions, spirituality and supernatural beliefs of all human cultures all over the world, confers a definite survival advantage. Study after study confirms that people who consider themselves religious have, amongst other things, a far greater recovery rate from major surgery, and longer life spans. This would have been especially beneficial to early (perhaps pre-civilisation) man, whose struggle for survival and lack of medicine would mean that any possessor of such abilities would be at an advantage. Natural selection preserved this trait and it spread throughout the population.


1 Gallup polls in the 1990s found that 53% of Americans have had 'a moment of religious awakening and insight'
2 Frankl's book 'Man's Search for Meaning' is about his internal and external experiences in the camps.
3 Mark 5:34
4 Seventh Day Adventist males live an average of eight years longer than adherents of other faiths
5 The faithful are three times more likely to survive major heart surgery, even after other social factors have been controlled.



Regards,

Matt.

Mick058 wrote:

newoldmanx wrote:religion is a fantastic idea its a pity no-one ever tried it

brainwashing is evident when someone living 2000 years after another can profess that he was the only perfect man mick i could ask how you came to know this but i already have a fair idea

on the point of slavery i think one of the "commandments" instructs not to make your servants work on the sabbath

"My comment about Australia's generosity is where does that concept come from? It's a cultural pillar, but where did it come from?"
actually modern Australia was founded on theft and slavery (unless you still believe that there was not enough room in the jails in england crap)

do you mean the stolen land we call Australia that's stolen resources are bankrolling its prosperity, that cultural pillar or the Australia that is one of three countries that has made no commitment while 19 of 22 OECD donor countries have committed to increasing or maintaining aid at a level of 0.7% of GNI.
5 of 22 countries already give 0.7% of GNI or more
my faith in science weened when as a kid i was told that if i only eat half my chocolate bar each time it would last forever

I'd be interested to hear how you think it is i came to believe? (i"m not sure if i already hinted to it or not)

I"m unsure of how you came to "believe" however id hazard a guess that your statement that jesus was "the ONLY perfect man" is not through first hand experience and more likely something you have been told over and over never questioning what it means to be "perfect" and then regurjitating it yourself
"perfect" is a relative term could you state that jesus never soiled a nappy, cried for his mothers milk as a baby for instance.
Could you enlighten me on what you mean by "perfect man" here in Fiji that could simply mean he could play at any position on the rugby field 😂

Sure, Perfect man is that Jesus never sinned, always obeyed and trusted his heavenly father and did not break the law. This is all evident in the bible.

My statement comes through understanding the bible. I make that judgment (my understanding of the bible) for myself through reading and studying it.

Are there any Fijian Churches near you? The way they sing in their churches is something i'd love to see and experience.

thanks and well answered👍
we have had 80+ppl here at home for the last 3 nights praying, singing, eating, and drinking kava as we had "our lady of the rosary" gathering.
My wife is a christian, and i do not use the term lightly she is a person whom has an incredible commitment to her faith not just a church goer (sadly a contradiction to 99% of "christians" i have met personally) and yes the singing really is something to experience

Good to hear your wife has a commitment to Christ.

i really do look forward to the Fijian experience.

At the end of the day you can only learn so much when it comes to Christianity (though there is lots to learn!) - it comes to a point of faith, you rather believe it or not - BUT, if it is true and God really did love us so much, that he gave his son Jesus to die for us, so that our sin was taken care of - wouldn't it be worth following him?

I hope your wife continues to nag you in a loving way 😏

personally my "sin" is taken care of through me forgiving myself and allowing myself to be right here right now detaching myself from the "form" and accepting my love for myself and my life the reason i cannot accept a higher power atm is when i was born no-one told me i needed food i got hungry no-one told me i needed warmth i got cold etc others later on told me i needed "god" if god told me i needed food and warmth etc i just cant understand why he would'nt tell me i needed him where are his priorities

the standard answers i get from priests, ministers, clergy and believers etc is "god works in mysterious ways" "we cannot expect to understand gods will" i ask them to pray for god to give me an answer i will understand and accept to no avail 🥲

Fair enough, though if God put it in our minds at birth that we needed to follow him, our lives may be more robotic then actually 'real'.

You sound like a guy who is curious enough, but miraculous conversions aren't really the norm - i came to know and accept through reading and learning.

You should get yourself a book called 'Evidence that demands a Verdict'. It seems you know your history etc from your previous posts. This is a good book and may give you some more understanding. Its by a guy called 'Josh Mcdowell'

Books are good in helping us to understand. As i've said previously, this is the main way GOd has chosen to reveal himself to us - through written word (most importantly the bible) and through verbal words (through people spreading the gospel, missionaries, pastors, priest - lay people etc.)

This is a book which I think better helps understand - Richard Dawkins 'The God Delusion'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NSk_ZeAH_I

mmm, interesting...so my darwinian impulse is misfiring?

and charity is like a sexual lust?

right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is? 🤪

The cuckoo reads his Good book.........HHHmmm things to do to day
1/ stone the homosexuals
2/ do not wear polyester
3/ do not add bacon to my big mac
4/ drag wife and small children into the midday sun to flogg some 2000yr old religous propaganda to people who did not ask for it
5/ take some slaves
6/ confess and cleanse last weeks stoning deaths
I wonder who's brain is misfiring?

The chorus says it all.

have a look at yadayahweh.com hopefully it will give you clarity about the questions you ask,

and for those knockers that are still posting in this thread, your souls have drawn you here for a reason, but your head won't allow your faith to guide you....
let yourself go, learn and be amazed at what God has done for you and what he continues to do for you.

God Bless!!

You're talkin crap.😵‍💫

cheers mate! may the force guide you to.
lets hope you pull your head out of the book long enough to discover you own way, instead of preordained lifestyle from a work of fiction/hearsay written 2000yrs ago. I hope you nourish your soul enough to allow it to decide your destiny (maybe your head can lend a hand). may your faith be true
Q1. when a winner thanks god for letting him win, does that mean god forsake the other contestants?
Q2. when two sides go to war with God on their side .. who wins?
Q3. why is the old testament any more a relevent account of the start of mankind than say "the dreamtime"
may your head enlighten you. Blessed are the cheesemakers👍

DUBB61 wrote:lets hope you pull your head out of the book long enough to discover you own way, instead of preordained lifestyle from a work of fiction/hearsay written 2000yrs ago.

Can I just step in here. I spent the first 18 years of my life on your side of the fence, and I had exactly the same sentiments as you. I thought all Christians were mindless imbeciles who had been brainwashed, etc, etc, etc. But then I met some interesting people. I remember well being invited to this guys place, and it was pretty cool. We sat around chatting for a while, then some guy pulls out a bible and reads a bit - and I was feeling a bit ripped off, no-one told me there was going to be "religious" stuff going on. Next thing they start praying, I'm looking around the room thinking there must be other normal people here, I can't be the only one. Then eventually it ended, and they all looked up and became normal people again. Over time, I gave them the usual questions (the bible is a complete fabrication, Jesus is just like Santa, etc, etc). Eventually I caved in and read the Bible, however it was not like I read it in school when I was forced too, or at church when as boarders we got dragged along - I read it without looking for the many faults and without thinking the whole time that it is bollocks - I read it to see what it said. No word of a lie, it was like it struck me between the eyes. I was reading the book of Matthew, and it actually made sense. I discovered that day that Jesus isn't just a word you yell when you have just belted yourself with a hammer, He is actually real.

So when you talk about brainwashing etc, I can tell you, having experienced both sides of the fence, the worst form of brainwashing is the lie that the bible is fiction and God doesn't exist.

pete wood wrote:mmm, interesting...so my darwinian impulse is misfiring?

and charity is like a sexual lust?

right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is? 🤪

He's in the post above....LOL
Gives a new insight on peer pressure eh???? Look everyone is entitled to believe in woteva they believe and people will have different views,thats what makes us "us". I DO take offence by someone telling me why and what I should be or shouldn't be doing; in their opinion anyway.I don't push my point of veiw onto people and i expect others to do the same by me. You are free to believe what you want,as am I.

MickH wrote:

pete wood wrote:right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is? 🤪

He's in the post above....LOL
I DO take offence by someone telling me why and what I should be or shouldn't be doing; in their opinion anyway.

So you feel its ok to insult me because of my beliefs. Whilst I really don't give a toss, you shouldn't be insulting people because of what they believe. Whilst according to your post above, this offends you - then you might have to toughen up 😂

MickH wrote:You are free to believe what you want,as am I.

Then why do you feel need to insult others who believe differently to you?

I guess you were right in one way, there was tremendous peer pressure to stay agnostic just to be "normal". However once I considered the pros and cons of each choice, the decision was easy - but in practice there are difficulties. The choice is yours and I respect your position, however having been on that side of the fence it saddens me when people won't open their eyes.

If you are going to edit quotes to suit your needs than you are twisting what is written and implied by posts made by others,to suit your arguements. If you "respect my position" then stop preaching to me....if it "saddens" you then toughen up. My eyes are open and what I see is clear to me,just different to what you apparently "see".
As to why I'm here on this particular page....I'm moderating.
Yes I have deleted very offensive posts. Lets not turn this into a slagging match then?????? I will even try to stay posetive😀........
Like I've said all along...each to their own.👍

I find it interesting that as this thread has progressed it's the skeptics that have started to take the axe to the believers. And with all due respect Mick, pls don't give me the "don't turn this into a slanging match line". You (and others) have been "slanging" things at believers. Now I don't care really cause I'm happy to defend my position, but lets at least be honest. Yes, I've given Mr Dawkins a hit, but I think it was deserved. Because some of his explanations of Darwinian Impulse look even more improbable and baseless than anything Jesus said. He is a religious fanatic just like Osama Bin Laden. How can you "devote" your life to fixing wrong beliefs and not call it a religious mission of some sort. His beliefs are as dogmatic as the Pope's. The difference is, he paints himself as neutral because he has a bunch of academic cardboard nicely framed and hanging on his office wall. 👎 BTW, his comments about the reliability of the bible are based on the dodgy opinions of a "german language" professor. No one in the field of history agrees with him.

If you want to answer the question re each to there own, figure this out. Is there such a thing as real truth? I think there is otherwise nothing we do has any real measure of good or bad. Interestingly, Mr Dawkins thinks there is such a thing as evil, but I don't think he can figure out where it comes from. Truth to him means measurements, but I think anyone else can see that there is much more to it. Jesus says he is "the truth". Figure that one out. ❓

But yes, lets try and keep it civil. 🙂

I can't comment on Dawkins as I didn't read it,nor am I interested. The "slanging" as you call it is from BOTH "sides".....

"The choice is yours and I respect your position, however having been on that side of the fence it saddens me when people won't open their eyes"

Thats "slanging" as you say....the implication is that "your wrong and I'm right" attitude,which I dissagree with. Why are my "eyes not open"???? I see things differently,but yet I get told I'm wrong???

And for this "mmm, interesting...so my darwinian impulse is misfiring?

and charity is like a sexual lust?

right. I wonder who the real cuckoo is? "
So it's alright for YOU to slag ff at someone who has a different belief to you???

The funny thing is it always ends up with "one side" defending itself against the "other",which ever way you want to interpret that....You believe you are "right" and all others are "wrong" to not believe what you do so the arguement is there for the taking. You know you're welcome to ring me as I'm not deliberately off to slag out on anyone.Your beliefs are yours and good for you!!
0404047162
I have a different point of veiw and you should respect that in my opinion what you "believe in" I fail to see the reality in at all. Trying to justify yourself is a real turn off as all you are doing is preaching......

Actually, I wasn't saying you were wrong, I was just saying you were having a crack at us.

I do respect what you believe, but yes I do think you are wrong. But that's ok, you think I'm wrong too.

We are on teams here really - one side believes, the other doesn't. Thats what makes the thread interesting to read.

People make up their own mind as to which side they want to be on (though there are more than 2 sides)

Interesting to hear where people are at with the 'what is the point of life' question.

See....now we're all getting along!!!😉

Mick in answer to your previous question, I think it's ok to have a stab at Richard Dawkins. He's put his view out there and what happens when you do that is you get public criticism. I just subjected my new album to critique in the form of a review and bits of that stung a bit. Putting things out in the public arena means criticism and that's a good thing, otherwise we'd be like China or some other tightly controlled society where what you think can get you jailed. However, I'm trying not to get personal with people here on the forum.

I would be interested to know if people can actually detect any sense in what he is saying re "darwinian impulse". The term seems just as vague to me as terms like "God's prescence" do when people talk about them...not to say that I haven't experienced the latter, I have, but you see what I mean.

More from the BBC:


Why are Beliefs Held so Dearly?


Why do people die for their beliefs? Why will they kill for them? Just what is it about beliefs that makes friends fall out, and turns the suggestion 'let's just agree to disagree' into wishful thinking?

Logical Levels

Our beliefs and values are core to who we are. This view has been formalised by Robert Dilts, who was one of the early developers of NLP(1) along with Richard Bandler and John Grinder. Dilts developed a model of human behaviour he calls 'logical levels'.

In this particular model, we are each of us in the middle of our own world. In one direction the self reaches out towards the Family, then Community, and then the World. In the other direction, the self reaches out through Identity, Values and Beliefs, Capabilities and Skills, Behaviour, and the Environment.

Thus:
We can test this model by considering how personally someone will take a challenge, and how pleased they will be by a compliment, depending on which level the remark is directed at:

'Messy offices you have here' is not particularly challenging; and equally a compliment along the lines of 'you live in a nice town' is merely social chit-chat. These operate on the Environmental level.

'I get upset by the way you contradict me in front of my boss' is more likely to provoke a response; and 'I like the way you always take time to find out how the client is doing' is a nicer compliment. These operate on the Behaviourial level.

'You really should not do marketing presentations, you do it very badly' is getting much more personal; as is 'We need you to write up this paper, you are the only member of the team who can put our case across so we will win.' These operate on the Capabilities and Skills level.

'What you are saying is completely immoral, and fundamentally flawed because...' cuts even nearer to the bone; and 'I completely agree with you when you say that this is the way to maintain ethical integrity' is a much more powerful endorsement than any of the others. These operate on the level of Values and Beliefs.

'You are a stupid and illiterate fool, a complete idiot' is how the most aggressive insults are structured; and the most powerful compliments are along the lines of 'you are a complete star' or 'you are a wonderful human being, beautiful in mind, body and soul.' These reach to us so deeply because they operate on the level of Self.

The Model in Practice

This way of examining how we look at the world is useful because it enables us to make our praise, and indeed our criticism, far more effective by selecting the level we aim it at. Interestingly, John Grey(2) points out that men respond best to compliments at the Capabilities and Skills level: '...you make me feel like a natural woman'(3) while women respond better to compliments at the Identity level: '...you were wonderful tonight'(4).

It is also useful, because it gives us a framework to assess when we may suddenly and inadvertently be treading on dangerous ground.

If religion to me is a few fancy buildings in my local environment or just a pattern of habitual behaviour at the weekends, while your faith is the core of who you are, then my flippant remark will be your blasphemy. This was exactly what happened to Salman Rushdie when Iran laid a fatwa on him for blasphemy in his book The Satanic Verses. The western liberal reaction was not only horror, it was also confusion. They simply could not see why the Iranians were so deeply offended. But the two groups were operating on different levels - it is no wonder they could not communicate effectively.

We are having to deal with exactly the same issue on a geopolitical scale, and it is interesting, (and terrifying), to note that fundamentalism in the Middle East is now being matched by rising fundamentalism in the West. It is arguable that the attacks of 11 September, 2001, were intended to bring about this switch of logical levels within the West, from dealing with the Middle East on the levels shown as World or Environmental in the diagram, to dealing with it at the Values/Beliefs or even the Identity level of American patriotism.

It is worth noting explicitly, since this is a project on belief, that religion can sit more or less anywhere within this model, from Environment through to Self, but how the person experiences religion, and the amount of influence it has over the person's life, will depend on which level within the model the religion is held.

Conclusion

Like all models of the world, Dilts' model is only one way of looking at a small sub-set of reality. It is however a useful way of understanding why people sometimes appear to overreact to innocent remarks, why others will happily die for their country and why some negotiations stall with no effective communication being made.

But why should we react in these ways? Our behaviour has been largely determined by our evolution, but our development of faith has developed alongside this, as is shown by the entry, "The Evolutionary Advantages of Faith."

1 Neuro Linguistic Programming, which is (among many other things) the study of the structures and processes of thinking.
2 Author of Mars and Venus
3 Carole King
4 Eric Clapton


Regards,

Matt.

HA, We know where Matt's belief's lie in - the BBC 😂 (joking)

It is an interesting read, as was the first one you put up - i had heard that reasoning before.

Matt Ryan wrote:But why should we react in these ways? Our behaviour has been largely determined by our evolution, but our development of faith has developed alongside this, as is shown by the entry, "The Evolutionary Advantages of Faith."

This is way of trying to explain faith, but my problem with it is that it leaves out the possibility that faith is based on fact. So I possit another. That is, mankind has an inbuilt awareness of the divine power. Every faith is an expression of an attempt to connect with this divine power. Atheists are the contientous objectors amongst all these expressions.

Perhaps "Atheists" are supported by FACTS and,not as you yourself have stated"....the possibility that faith is based on fact"..
This is where you and I differ Pete.You BELIEVE the Bible is fact. I dont.

How can faith be based on facts? The very idea of faith is that you a willing to bet (your soul/eternal life) on the fact that there is a missing peice of the equation of life that cannot be explained. The theory of a divine power is strong in all sheletered or isolated societies and as they evolve or become more knowledgeable these taboos/superstitions are slowly desolved/debunked and society moves forward.

DUBB61 wrote:How can faith be based on facts? The very idea of faith is that you a willing to bet (your soul/eternal life) on the fact that there is a missing peice of the equation of life that cannot be explained. The theory of a divine power is strong in all sheletered or isolated societies and as they evolve or become more knowledgeable these taboos/superstitions are slowly desolved/debunked and society moves forward.

I'll second that, faith is believing something without having absolute proof (no facts).

As proof (facts) emerge, faith is whittled away.

For example, a person who buys a vw with faith in themselves to do a resto, only to find that as they learn more about restoring (ie. fact finding) that the job is beyond them.


Regards,

Matt.

I think faith is about something that is hoped for without having ALL the facts. If there was no facts at all, there is no basis for anything. People have faith in science because of the facts it's already provided. People have faith in Jesus based on what he's already done. If I can compare it this way, we trust what science has to say because of the books it is recorded in for the most part. Christianity is the same, only people who follow Jesus trust in the facts recorded in the bible. That's not to say that the bible is a science book because it isn't, but hopefully you see what I mean.

And Mick I get that you don't believe because you don't trust the bible.

it be interestin to know how many that have critized the bible on this thread have actually read right thru cover to cover and tried to understand it , or how many are basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them

grogy wrote:it be interestin to know how many that have critized the bible on this thread have actually read right thru cover to cover and tried to understand it , or how many are basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them

yeah id have to agree who has read these books cover to cover and tried to understand without basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them

The Vinaya Piaaka
The Abhidhamma
The Sutta Pitaka
Holy Analects
Holy Akaranga Sutra
Holy Kalpa Sutra
Holy Bhagavad Gita
Holy Confucian Analects
Holy Mencius
The Doctrine of the Mean
The Great Learning
Holy Bible old and new
Holy Koran
Holy Talmud
Holy Tao-te-ching
Holy Chuang Tzu
Holy Upanishads
Holy Veda
Holy Torah
Holy Kojiki
Holy Nihongi
Holy Kitab I Aqdas
Holy Kitab I Iqan
to name a few......

about facts...🙄

1.
Im holding a photo and say...
"brothers and sisters, i have none, but this man's father is my fathers son!"

Q. who is in the photo???
(think about it for a while you may be surprised)





2.
person (a) are we alone???
person (b) yes, we are!!!
person (a) no we're not, we're together

who's right??🤓

grogy wrote:it be interestin to know how many that have critized the bible on this thread have actually read right thru cover to cover and tried to understand it , or how many are basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them

I would also ask that.Good question. But concentrate on the last part of your question;
"or how many are basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them"....
and apply that to people who actually "believe". Aren't you basing your "beliefs" on exactly that ...."how many are basing their thoughts on emotion or what others have told them"...........Preaching..... Yes I've also read the bible and don't believe a word of it.Hands up here who has read the "real" bible and not just someones translation. I see no-one is raising their hands,nor would I expect anyone to.
I would also suspect that most "believers" have never read the bible front ot back but believe soley on what they are told,as translated to meaning by someone else.

its always going to be open to interpretation, but that does not make it wrong, it just makes someone wrong. also by basing ridicule on what many religions have said and done does not make the bible wrong, it just makes religion wrong cause they dont practise what it preachs

I want to live a meaningful life without regrets in the end

helbus wrote:I want to live a meaningful life without regrets in the end

then you are god, because only you have the power to do this

Mick058 wrote:Fair enough, though if God put it in our minds at birth that we needed to follow him, our lives may be more robotic then actually 'real'.

my logic, based on your statement, says if everybody converted to following god tomorrow, this would be bad because life would be robotic not actually real

i think you have answered many a question with your statement.... its not actually real and id have to agree


there is only one truth... and that is there are many truths
if you feel warm and the person beside you says "its cold in here" are they wrong, whats the "truth"

can we accept that everyone is right 🥷

if you were to gather a nominee from the 20 mainstreem religions with a following of 1 million or more, sat them in a room and posed that the person with the one true religion raise there hand, you would no doubt have 20 hands i the air, each would claim that they have more truth than the other 😂😂😂
i believe they all would be right


when you meet a person who is trying to "ram religion down your throat" there is no point trying to argue or "reason" with them, we have all done it, if we can learn to be happy for them, accept them and acknowledge they are right (which they are, irrespective of their belief and our own and they are within the laws of the land) they and we ourselves will in-turn be better off.
and just have to say thanks everyone im really enjoying this thread

well death is a reality, right in our own eyes never made peace in a domestic ,national or international setting. so a lot of self 'right' has caused a lot of misery...... got to some standard for right from another level

grogy wrote:well death is a reality, right in our own eyes never made peace in a domestic ,national or international setting. so a lot of self 'right' has caused a lot of misery...... got to some standard for right from another level

it not that right in our own eyes never made peace its the fact that we havent respected that the other person/party was right too its more the exaggerated ego that has caused unrest
and according to some death isn't a reality at all have you read any of the books i mentioned earlier if you believe in buddah, alah, jesus, confucius, etc etc etc there is no death I should also mention that people in each of these sects have been involved in misery, misery is part of us, no matter what you believe in (although some handle it better than others), its not actually external it is inbuilt or "programed" into us, there are situations or events period. They are external until we label them internally. These events or circumstances do not generate or cause misery, but our interpretation of them is the source of misery itself only you can take yourself to another level and some need gods to do this, just like some need drugs, some just rely on friends /family, others are self reliant and some just cannot cope and choose to end there lives. Eeach one of these coping mechanisms have a core that is the individual at the end of the day you choose!! and if whatever you choose works and isnt harming others you must be RIGHT😂😍

Surprised i have kept out of this for so long

I have read "most" of it ('cept the REALLY long individual posts - so orry if i am repeating) but most of it is Jesus V's Athiest

I can understand the athiest post

What i cant undestand is why Christianity is right.
Why isnt Muslim / Hindu / Voodooism right
Why do Christians not only say evolution is wrong (and there is only ONE evolution belief - yes??) but all the other religions are wrong

But then drill down a level
Only certain Christians are right
Catholics ar certain they are rignt and C of E / Protestants (sp??) etc etc are wrong

I saw on the teev the other day people complaining about Muslims not assimilating and seperate schools but when i was getting married i couldnt marry in a Catholic church (my wife was catholic) as i would not take up the belief

My main belief that the evolution - dust to dust - the end means worms and compost belief is right is that is it against ALL others.

I belive science / physics / big bang etc plays a part - but Christian God and Jesus and Mary etc etc - sorry cant go there

when i said right in own eyes i was also refering to how some act on this, usually in a negative way toward others. i dont believe drugs are the solution tho cheech n chong may differ.also with all the options for us to take, bible budda, confucius, islam, etc, i believe one day the right choice will be manifest.

newoldmanx wrote:can we accept that everyone is right 🥷

I would 100% agree with that. It isn't a case of collective right and wrong, it is a personal choice. My thinking I am right does not mean that anyone else is wrong. I see it like footy teams, I don't care which footy team anyone else supports, just don't tell me mine is useless.

MickH wrote:I would also suspect that most "believers" have never read the bible front ot back but believe soley on what they are told,as translated to meaning by someone else.

From the people I have spoken to on this subject, there were a good proportion of Christians who had not read the entire Bible. Generally it was those who were brought up as Christians. People I have spoken to who "converted" (I hate that word, but it's better than "got religion") later in life have all generally read the lot.
Bear in mind this is a small sample, I'd be interested if anyone had any real research on this topic??

[Disclaimer: Posts were trimmed to save space, elements not affecting the outcome have been removed, YMMV, not to be taken during pregnancy, reliance on information is at the users risk, message is for information only, all measurements to be site verified, yada yada yada]

Jesus Christ is this still going 😉

So what does the bible say about other religions? Do they go to hell, because after all, only the true believers go to heaven?

There have been so many religions over the years (I find ancient norse mythology and religion esp facinating) but they have all seemed to be simply ways for people who can't deal with life or the world as it is to feel better. Although this ridiculous statement that not a single person is free of sin (what about a little child who died soon after birth? how did they sin??) seems to be a way of sending 'believers' on a guilt-trip and more or less shaming them into believing.

You have to be a "believer" to go to hell because as a non believer hell doesn't exist.

term hell is from ,hades[greek] sheol [hebrew], same word. refer to common grave of mankind. many religions teach hell is place of eternal torment, this is not a bible teaching but an old doctrine used to control people by fear and keep them coming n contributing to the religion they profess. the greek word geenna is used as an symbol of eternal destruction[ not torment] so no pain is experienced in any of the true meanings of these words. and if god is true this would be consistent with his personality as described in most so called holy writings, as a god of love

newoldmanx wrote:

helbus wrote:I want to live a meaningful life without regrets in the end

then you are god, because only you have the power to do this

I am glad you agree. I have the power to do this for myself, and believe in myself. I wouldn't call myself god, but like I said, I believe in myself.

can we accept that everyone is right

at it's heart, all religion tries to explain who/what controls the world we live in. Ie, "Who is in charge?"

I think we can say that all of them can be right about some things, but as to answering the question above, in the end we have to pick one. Otherwise it's like 20 different people saying they are the Australian prime minister. There can only be one prime minister. There can only be one Divine creator and sustainer.

As to answering whether Christianity says it's the only one that is right, let me put it this way. Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to God but through me." In other words, Jesus says he is the only way to life after death. So I guess you have to figure out whether he is what he says. If he's right, he is the king of everything. If he's wrong then good teacher or not, he is a deluded nutbag.

Re grogy's explanation of Hell. I think there will be eternal punishment. However, It's not unjust. If God is loving then he has to be just. Otherwise there is no fairness. Think about it. When the state is lenient on crims we think it's not fair coz it isn't loving for the victims. Same thing for God only he has a much clearer picture of whats going on in people's hearts. Does he want them to be punished? NO. Do they deserve all his paradise/heaven if they spend their whole lives hurting and ignoring him? I don't think so. It's about justice and love in RELATIONSHIP with God.

oh even more propaganda...........


God create man?.....nah man created god.

pete wood wrote:There can only be one Divine creator and sustainer.
.

Peter - that is the point

Only ONE can be right because they say the others are wrong

If we go by majority rules - doesnt that mean Muslims are right?

WHY are ALL the others wrong??
Because.
Because isnt an answer
Why is the Deli Lama wrong??
Why is the Koran wrong?

can we accept that everyone is right

No - but i can accept that ALL religons are wrong

Well said.
Simon

x 2

can we accept that everyone is right

No - but i can accept that ALL religons are wrong

congratulations your right 😎



but so is everybody else 😂😂😂


Pete, arent all the hindus, buddhists, muslims, taoists etc etc aware that jesus said "he is the only way...." btw a friend i went to school with is a psychicatrist he was treating 3 jesus's at one time they all said they were the only way to god. One of them was dedicated to "cleansing the world of rubbish" he used to start at one side of a paddock picking up the litter as he went he'd throw it over his shoulder then proceed to pick another and repeat until he got to the other side only to turn and find the field littered (was the work of his archrival "the devil" he"d say) he'd carry on for hours back and forth, every other day, reciting scripture as he went



can i ask the believers of varying religions here, where does faith come from??? how does one choose which one is right???, who decides who gets faith and who doesnt.

Are you born with it, do you wake up one morning and just believe, or talk yourself into it, or does god give you a "sign" that you cannot mistake

Does it mean god doesn't love me because he hasn't given me an unmistakable sign, so i can have faith too, i could pretend to believe. I just dont think having faith is a conscious decision. Where does faith originate

Every morning I wake up with a sign
this internal message rises me from my comfy bed
this is a very powerful signal from within
its calling cannot go unanswered....it must be adhered to and obey
I rise to my feet to answer the calling



It's my bladder telling me to empty it. Some callings come from within.

dubb61 are you taking the piss😂😂😂

pete, death is punishment. life is the blessing. eternal hellfire is propaganda from powerhungry religionists who once kept the bible truth to themselves, but now anyone can read it and find out the twisted lies of priests for themselves. if u believe in god that is great so do i. if god made us to go to heaven he would have made us angels in the first place. earth terra firma is made for man and man for earth. it only a mess today because man thinks he knows best, and because of his self greed and ambition

grogy sounds good

I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just telling you what Jesus said. You can decide for yourself.

pete wood wrote:I think faith is about something that is hoped for without having ALL the facts. If there was no facts at all, there is no basis for anything. People have faith in science because of the facts it's already provided. People have faith in Jesus based on what he's already done. If I can compare it this way, we trust what science has to say because of the books it is recorded in for the most part. Christianity is the same, only people who follow Jesus trust in the facts recorded in the bible. That's not to say that the bible is a science book because it isn't, but hopefully you see what I mean.

And Mick I get that you don't believe because you don't trust the bible.

I can't "trust" the bible as I don't believe there is or was a "god"...

where does faith come from??? who decides who gets faith and who doesnt.

Are you born with it, do you wake up one morning and just believe, or talk yourself into it, or does god give you a "sign" that you cannot mistake
Does it mean god doesn't love me because he hasn't given me an unmistakable sign, so i can have faith too, i could pretend to believe. I just dont think having faith is a conscious decision. Where does faith originate if it originates from god why wont he give me some

Does it mean god doesn't love me😢😢

Poor diddums...😂

newoldmanx wrote:Does it mean god doesn't love me😢😢

No - you drive a buggy

I don't really have a problem with religion until they start to talk about it...

The part that (sh*ts) gets to me is when they say "all the answers are in the Bible"
then when you raise points that are total against current popular opinion, they say no thats not relevent or you misunderstand what they meant.
if you are going to sprout that one book/translation has all life (and afterlifes) answers, then you can not pick and choose the bits that do not offend or are not completely ridiculous (the arc story) or just plain works of imagination (garden of eden).
Someone quoted the Bible should be treated like the yellow pages, but the yellow pages does not tell you you are going to hell if you do not read it and not another book.

newoldmanx wrote:where does faith come from??? who decides who gets faith and who doesnt.

Are you born with it, do you wake up one morning and just believe, or talk yourself into it, or does god give you a "sign" that you cannot mistake
Does it mean god doesn't love me because he hasn't given me an unmistakable sign, so i can have faith too, i could pretend to believe. I just dont think having faith is a conscious decision. Where does faith originate if it originates from god why wont he give me some

Does it mean god doesn't love me😢😢

I think it's different from person to person. Some people have a "defining moment" when they feel like they are touched by God. For others, it's a process. Weighing up the arguments for and against, reading the bible and spending time talking it through.

In answer to your question, I think God cares immensely about everyone (and I know this is opening the floodgates re discussion on suffering). I also think that if we really want to trust God, we can. After trusting in nothing but yourself it can be very hard, but he is trustworthy.

Dubb61, Good point. The bible doesn't have the answer to everything. Anyone who says it does is deluded. The bible talks about a limited scope of things. That God created the world, that we rejected him and how he is working to fix things up. There are some other things, but it's not exhaustive. It can help us to understand our world better in a general sense but there aren't details on everything.

if u worried bout goin to hell, dont sweat it
someone on the forum said if they goin to hell they goin in a vw, so still some seat available

Now this is a somewhat interestiong post.

I thought that there was only two religions.

Man reaching out to god and God reaching out to man.

Newt

u rite there is only 2, false n true. love is the defining mark, but thats not permissiveness, nor is it cruelty, nor politically allied with nationalism

Pete, if god loves everyone immensly, then why do children and infants starve endemically in poor countries for example. Have they sinned?

No need for God to answer that. OVERPOPULATION for the areas resources they live in. Same as all the wildlife in an area during drought or plague. But not allowing certain Christians the right to use contraception does not help the situation.

It must be God's will then that i don't believe in him???

DUBB61 wrote:No need for God to answer that. OVERPOPULATION for the areas resources they live in. Same as all the wildlife in an area during drought or plague. But not allowing certain Christians the right to use contraception does not help the situation.

DUBB61, I couldn't have said it any better...especially the last sentence.

Interesting thing though. Have been reading J.Blainey's "a very short history of the world". He cites the improved farming methods of the west impacting the developing world as the reasons for over population...and then starvation. Prior to that there was just starvation.

Wild1, sin is a small word describing thinking or acting in a way that says "God is not the boss of me". So in answer to your question, I think everyone has.

Kmesh, the bible says we make our own mind whether you'd trust God or not...and I think you know this is true for you too. Nice try though. 😂

DUBB61 wrote:No need for God to answer that. OVERPOPULATION for the areas resources they live in. Same as all the wildlife in an area during drought or plague. But not allowing certain Christians the right to use contraception does not help the situation.

"OVERPOPULATION for the areas resources they live in"
how many ppl does two fish feed😂😂
the area they live in is called the world, the world produces enough food to feed everybody very well peoples priorities are why many starve
for example taking the food out of starving kids mouths to... repaint a vw, buy those rims i just have to have, spotties, stereo, new seats etc etc 😊
not to mention the cost of the old christian vs muslim debarcle that has re-surfaced with a new catchy title "the war on terror"

"But not allowing certain Christians the right to use contraception does not help the situation."


religion comes second to instint. We instinctivly reproduce (add to that christians were also told to "go forth and multiply")
contraception would mean that ppl were haveing sex for fun!!!!!🤓
the bible says sex is for reproduction (IF ONLY WE WERE CALLED TO GOD THE WAY WE ARE CALLED TO SEX)
so it makes sense to me that christians not be given contraception, plus it means more in the coffers = more prime real estate, more pope mobiles, more gold more power and more fancy dresses for the clergy = HAPPY DAYS😁

That is nonsense. The world cannot produce enough food to feed everybody now, and croplands are already suffering from salinity problems, erosion and lack of water. Vast areas of irrigation land, usually originally set up in semi-arid land anyway, are becoming unsustainable. Look at the Murray Darling river - it is already at the point of over-use and parts of the MIA are being turned off. The Colorado River in the US does not even reach the sea any more - every single drop is being used for storage and irrigation. The problem is common around the world. And haven't you been reading the news reports about dangerously low fish stocks in the oceans of the world? How can you possibly say that the world can support nearly 7 billion people? It can't. Period.

Political problems certainly cause localised witholding of imported food and starvation - Somalia, Ethiopia etc, but the fact remains that those parts of the world (and many more) will NEVER be self sufficient in food. More and more countries are having to import food and water. There are too many people in the world now, and more people in future will only make it worse.

No one is taking food from starving kids to buy VW parts etc - a particularly irrational argument. As already mentioned, Australians are one of the highest givers of foreign aid in the world, and one of the highest contributors to charities.

Phil74Camper wrote:No one is taking food from starving kids to buy VW parts etc - a particularly irrational argument. As already mentioned, Australians are one of the highest givers of foreign aid in the world, and one of the highest contributors to charities.

by world standards, if you have clean running water in or even near your house you are FILTHY RICH
if you have a flushing toilet in or even near your house you are rolyalty you own a palace and are FILTHY RICH
sadly to most ppl in austalia these are seen as basic rights not ultimate luxuries
if you can afford these AND own a toy car to squander money on while people starve DONT TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR "GOD" OR RELIGION AND SIN ETC😬😬😬

As of 2008, the World Bank has estimated that there were an estimated 982 million poor people in developing countries who live on $1 a day or less
The real problem is poverty. As the market responds to money and not to actual need, it can only work to eliminate hunger when purchasing power is widely dispersed. Promoting free trade to alleviate hunger has proven to be a failure. In most developing countries exports have boomed while hunger has continued unabated or actually worsened

the earth can produce easily enuff food for 7 bill or heaps more, its bad management ,greed, destruction of forrests etc. in 1987 the world spent 87 mill per minute on weaponary, its gone up since then. the system has based its finances not on caring for peoples needs but on mad, or as its more properly known mutualy assured destruction.

I started to respond about the 150% food production and the 1 in 7 going hungry but you edited it before I could finish!

OK, the UN FAO is a scientific body and one would have to accept their conclusions, but predictions need to be given with caution. I suspect they may be saying that existing world nutrition standards may continue until 2030 - and we already know that many of the world's population are not adequately fed. This can only increase in future. And what happens after 2030?

I don't believe the Greenpeace statement; while I respect them, they are a political, not scientific organisation. Think about what they claim. Let's assume the world's population is 7 billion now. We supposedly produce enough food for 10.5 billion people, 1.5 times the existing total, yet only 6 billion are adequately fed. Are they saying that enough food for 4.5 billion people is produced now, and going 'missing'? That's enough to feed everyone in world just 20 years ago. If one person eats just 2 kg of food a day, that's 9 million tonnes per day - 3.2 billion tonnes of food per year - vanishing. I don't believe it.

And of course you need water for all those people too. Where is that going to come from?

And even if the 'missing' food could be found, and perfectly distributed to everyone, it's only enough to last until 2030 or 10.5 billion people. Then what?

There would be a lot more starving people without organisations like World Vision, and we are going to need more such work in future. But we are getting off the point, which is that infinitely expanding population is not only unsustainable and unrealistic, it is impossible. That's not a 'doomsday bubble', it's reality. We are still at the point where it's not too late to do something useful about it, but withholding contraception (whether for political or religious reasons) is irresponsible.

I take on board all your points about the contrast between our society and the hundreds of millions - soon thousands of millions - who are in poverty. But more people in the world is not a solution. It is simply impossible for 100% of the population to have the same standard of living as the wealthiest, apart from the fact that the earth does not have the resources to allow it. Free trade does not have all the answers, no. But neither does any other system of government. But it is the best we have.

The Romans had running water, central heating and plumbed toilets. But even then it was only a percentage of the population had them, and in the end their society was unsustainable - all resources are finite.

Contraception is PRECISELY the point of being able to enjoy sex, a perfectly normal and natural process, without the complications of reproduction (if we so choose). Why are humans (and particularly religious humans) the only species with hang-ups about sex? Dolphins do it fun (one of the only other species to do so) without any guilt.

humans got hangups about lots stuff, or maybe its conscience...... contraceptives that stop the female egg from fertilizing is not against bible principals, so its is ok to enjoy a relationship in harmony with scriptural principals. life is sacred....... but if u are not terminating a life..........

My opinion and mine only,
and i WONT enter into a bulls.t debate about it.
Absolutely NOT ONE PERSON can PROVE to me
that god exists.
You prove it in black and white that there really IS a god
and ill believe it (maybe).
All i have heard and read from people is that 'he' exists
or its 'God's way'.Thats crap as far as i'm concerned.
Neglecting your own family and putting god and the church first is NOT a christian thing to do is it?
Someone VERY close to me has this dilemma.
I believe I am a good 'christian' in the sense of the word.
I help fellow man yet I am not a believer,and this taints me as an athiest from people who have their
head up their asses.
No,i dont 'believe',yet if you were in trouble or i could help you in a time of need,
regardless of whether i knew you or not,i would help.
Only today (this is the reason for responding to this topic,otherwise i wouldnt have replied) i saw an asian woman
beating the shit out of a 3 to 5 year old child (and i'm talking punches and a knee to the leg) on a main road in view of all traffic.
And what did she say? GOD WILL PUNISH HIM!!!!! FOR WHAT????
What could that poor kid have done to deserve that?
I shoulda returned the favour for her child of her there and then.Bitch
As far as i am able to tell with my limited intelligence,nobody can ever win this world debate as to whether god exists or not.
If you believe,good onya,thats your thing.I dont,so dont try to convince me he/she/it does!
Apologies for a long winded excuse for a reply,and i could say a lot more
but ive said enough.Cheers

Just remember the thread topic "Why are people against religion".....it's getting somewhat off track.

I'm against it as I veiw it as simply another form of corruption that is trying to justify itself.

About religion in general then WTF is up with Scientology? Do you know what those people think...

Do they know?? LOL..

South Park did a really good explanation about it a while back.

kmesh wrote:About religion in general then WTF is up with Scientology? Do you know what those people think...

I'm guessing you have an overload of some really bad theatans going on. Want a personality test???😂😂

MickH wrote:Just remember the thread topic "Why are people against religion".....it's getting somewhat off track.

I'm against it as I veiw it as simply another form of corruption that is trying to justify itself.

Fair enough,i got a bit carried away

how do you explain amphibians turning into reptiles turning into humans if evolution is not true??

baja burley wrote:how do you explain amphibians turning into reptiles turning into humans if evolution is not true??

and then back to wanna be amphibians on the piss 😂
wonder what were going to "turn into" next 🤓 btw alot of ppl in the world see no difference between amphibians reptiles humans rocks trees water and air including many of Australias indigenous language groups

If you believe Christ died for your sins, you don't have to worry about being held accountable because he's taken the punishment.

Sin = "God is not the boss of me" - Simple as that. What he didn't know before eating the fruit was good or evil, so he couldn't choose evil.

They were naked and "not ashamed", coz they had nothing to be ashamed of.

the "apple" is scripture
and the "tree of knowledge" the bible

makes total sense 👍

ummm, no 🙅

eating the fruit meant he would decide for himself good and bad... in other words the fruit was a symbol of rulership or sovreignty...... being ashamed meant he now knew what it was to have a guilty conscience

I thought we already concluded that the old testament was a work of fiction. It has no more relevance than a science fiction novel. Loosely based on what could have happened, but with no relevent evidence and as such should be taken as heresay.
Sin is a moral line in the sand that (hopefully) moves as societys develop, otherwise we would still be getting stoned to death for saying jehovah.🙅

DUBB61 wrote:I thought we already concluded that the old testament was a work of fiction. It has no more relevance than a science fiction novel. Loosely based on what could have happened, but with no relevent evidence and as such should be taken as heresay.
Sin is a moral line in the sand that (hopefully) moves as societys develop, otherwise we would still be getting stoned to death for saying jehovah.🙅

If the old testament is a work of fiction then why wont the Turkish government let anybody near Mt Sinai(I think) to look at the petrified remains of Noah's ark?? Dimensions etc all correlate with what size the old testament say it was and satelite pics clearly show it high on the top of the mountain semi buried by generations and generations of erosion etc.

How do I know this?? My Aunty used to work for a firm(up until last year) that travels the world finding proof of such things happening in history. and when the turkish govt found out they found the ark and had pics of it nobody is allowed within cooee of it.

Noah's ark references are found in Genesis Chapter 6-9 which is the very first book in the old testament if i'm not wrong. So now i guess why you would want to keep such a finding "quiet" as it certainly would disprove theories and speculations about the bible being "fiction" instead of being fact.....

there r more ancient manuscripts of the hebrew n greek scriptures than any other literature, so dont believe it .n dont believe any historical writings.......and from what i remember it was monty python who said jehovah, n got stoned for saying it

Get/ask your Aunt to post a picture......should be entertaining.If the "firm" had a picture they would have published it yeh?????

There are a few published photos of an object high up on Mt Arrat kicking arround (though the most famous was taken by the Russians back in the days of biplanes).

I am concerned that morality should be relative. Does that mean society can decide when it is ok to rape, send children down coal mines, pedaphile, burn unwanted people etc (Im not saying that relative morality is ok in hindsite, just ok when you are actually doing it).

Surely morality has to be more than relative to what society deems acceptable at the time.

Newt

As is often said - every thing in moderation. a little rape, a little murder, a little incest, a little....... (somehow I dont think so).

Noah's tale is a symbolic story of faith and justice, handed down, meshed and embelished from similar 'flood' tales from ancient Sumeria, Iran and Egypt. Many religions have similar flood stories, particularly as ancient civilisations were built on rivers that were subject to flooding. It is not literally true.

The King James bible only refers to the 'mountains of Ararat', not specifically the mountain we recognise as today's Mt Ararat in eastern Turkey. You can easily inspect Mt Ararat with Google Earth; Noah's ark was supposed to be 130m long (bigger than any wooden ship ever built in modern times), but you won't see it. It isn't there. Fundamentalists have searched similar mountains nearby, as well as ranges in Syria and Iran, all without luck. Because there is nothing to find. It is not literally true.

You might as well try to look for the bones of the Rainbow Serpent in Arnhem Land - they are equally real.

Newt wrote:There are a few published photos of an object high up on Mt Arrat kicking arround (though the most famous was taken by the Russians back in the days of biplanes).

I am concerned that morality should be relative. Does that mean society can decide when it is ok to rape, send children down coal mines, pedaphile, burn unwanted people etc (Im not saying that relative morality is ok in hindsite, just ok when you are actually doing it).

Surely morality has to be more than relative to what society deems acceptable at the time.

Newt

As is often said - every thing in moderation. a little rape, a little murder, a little incest, a little....... (somehow I dont think so).

ok to rape = war and prision sentences (shared cells)
send children down coal mines = industrial revolution
pedaphile = ancient greek & roman societys
burn unwanted people = nazis ww2

society has already condoned and outlawed all the things you have listed that is how we evolve by developing a moral level that is set by current civilisation.

I agree. Thats why I struggle with morality being relative. Whilst today these things are considered barbaric (?), at the time they were considered acceptable.

Newt

only ever acceptable to anyone who has no regards for anyone [whatever time period]

DUBB61 wrote:ok to rape = war and prision sentences (shared cells)
send children down coal mines = industrial revolution
pedaphile = ancient greek & roman societys
burn unwanted people = nazis ww2

society has already condoned and outlawed all the things you have listed that is how we evolve by developing a moral level that is set by current civilisation.

ok to rape = every weekend drunk women are raped 2008
send children down coal mines = one in six children worlwide are in child labour as at today 2008
pedaphile = the pope has pleaded with priests to stop 2008
burn unwanted people = 2003 US government use insendry bombs (napalm) going into Baghdad

"society has already condoned and outlawed all the things you have listed"

ummm sadly not

I said outlawed not stopped!