New forum rules - discussion

These are the new forum rules


All new users will have to agree to these conditions.

For existing users, I am giving you notice that if you continue to use the forum after 30th of June, 2003, you are agreeing to these terms and conditions. There will be a new "Accept" button to click after this date

You have until midnight on June 30 to get me to change any of them. These rules are in response to recent legal wrangling, so consider some of these things absolutely 100% not negotiable, but if you have valid points, bring 'em up. 🙂

Please discuss.

Andrew


[Edited on 5-6-2003 by vanderaj]

Also, please note that all pages now have a very important disclaimer down the bottom.

Andrew

Aside from the lack of time offered to comment, & the overwhelming urge to ask who died & left you in charge.

2nd paragraph; Define "objectionable".

For arguements sake, what I say to Birchall, will be taken the way it's meant but someone else may find it offensive.
Does a comment need to be aimed particular party for that party to have grounds of complaint??

4th paragraph; "the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever."

You best explain that one to me in full detail.
That's just outright dictatorship.

Lastly, the 3rd paragraph.
With the exception of threatening & vulgar, every other term is open to interpretation.
Are you aware that NOT talking to someone is harrassment?
I sh!t you not.

In light of the current situation, the only rule we need is;
Don't comment on a bussiness, regardless of if you think you've been screwed.



[Edited on 4-6-2003 by Spook]

I don't have a problem with the new rules however spook in his own way did raise a good point in his last statement I think a lot of this is a "knee jerk Reaction" but will abide by them in order to keep this forum alive.
However I hope common sense prevails before giving out any info or personal details on forum members to anybody.
At the end of the day don't post nudity,don't bag anybody either personally or professionally.😀

We at AussieVeedubbers also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.


Thats gonna wanna make people fill in there personnal details isn't it !!!

What about public privacy statments act are you allowed to willy nilly give out personal contact information of users !!! With out consent !!!

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this forum.

Better be careful of the use of the word vw / volkswagen beetle and anything else i not own copyright too then ay !!!

i think spook was right with this one or all gets too silly !!!!

In light of the current situation, the only rule we need is;
Don't comment on a bussiness, regardless of if you think you've been screwed.

”These are the new forum rules - all new users will have to agree to this. For existing users, I am giving you notice that if you continue to use the forum after 6th of June, 2003, you are agreeing to these terms and conditions.”
Any way of making it compulsory for already registered users to view this? Easy for newbies, but I suspect not so for already registered?

”Considering the real-time nature of this forum, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we do not actively monitor the contents of posted messages and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for, or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this forum or any entity associated with this forum.“
The waiver is good but not binding. It is the same as a roller skating rink saying you ride at your own risk – they are still liable for injuries sustained, even by people breaking the rules. Unfortunately the publishers of a forum are in part liable in a “but for” scenario. “But for” the avenue of publishing libel the publishers bear some responsibility. However, actions like these being taken now by the “perceived” publishers do carry significant weight in that they are showing they are taking the responsibility seriously and are making endeavours to quickly remove posts that may be libellous.

”You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate”
Posters should be aware that in some circumstances material could be defamatory (libellous) even if true or even if a party is not named but can be reasonably deducted from information given.

”Although this forum does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at this forum reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless this forum, Aventure Media, Inc. (the makers of the bulletin board software), and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).”
Very fair for the users and especially fair for the administrators. However, as noted above this does not fully protect the publishers of libellous posts. The users of the forum should really have the respect for the forum and the administrators (who do a job that is largely thankless) to not post messages which may breech the conditions of the forum.

”We at AussieVeedubbers also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.”
Not only a right the forum can be compelled under certain circumstances to provide all “reasonably” known information.

Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this forum.
“Some clarification may be needed as to what constitutes an advertisement.”

From Spook “Aside from the lack of time offered to comment, & the overwhelming urge to ask who died & left you in charge.”
I will take Andrew’s side here. I have been a publisher and know full well the risks taken when material that is allegedly defamatory and/or illegal for other reasons is published. The internet is not immune. In fact it’s worse because material can be said to be published wherever it can be read. Bad news if people choose to proceed with actions in a country other than its origin.

My best friend is a barrister and I’d be happy to approach her for plain English guidelines for the administrators, which could act as a checklist to make their decisions much easier when/if the need arrises to delete a post. Some ligitimate and "certified" legal advice would be good. I'm sure I could wrangle it for the Forum for free for this purpose.

Sadly, libel has a big effect on businesses and individuals. However, more often than not an apology or retraction is usually more than enough for most people to withdraw.

A very simple way of avoiding libel charges (a practice I follow when writing articles or letters to newspapers) is to send the planned piece to the person/s involved giving them the opportunity to comment or request you not proceed. If they say nothing within a reasonable time you may well find you are then protected. Complaints are always best put the party involved, as you cannot defame them when writing directly to them.

In all it is a shame that we must resort to having these sorts of guidelines. But if this is needed to ensure that the Forum continues then my support is given.

I have no issue with most of it.
Paragraph 5 - Identities as long as the information is kept in line with the new privacy laws. OK

Agree with Hot Rod Matt that we need to get a legal eagle (or 2) to cast an eye over it. Keeping plain english is important.

The first sentence in the last paragraph - not really sure what this means.

The final set of terms should be emailed to all current users to ensure that they have seen it.

Spook, through the wonderful aegis that is legal action, I think you'll notice we're down one person in charge ... so far. Jim's still around, so your worst nightmare hasn't come to fruition yet.

I will consider the other points, particularly getting existing people to click their acceptance to the new terms, once we've had them checked.

I like Matt's idea to get them vetted. Rules that cannot be enforced, or worse still, provide no protection are worse than not having any. But the days of not having any rules are over. We are in the position we are today because we didn't have the ability to disclaim liability prior to bad things happening, not once but several times.

The last paragraph is basically stating that if you threaten to sue us and thus ruin the forum for everyone, you are not welcome here any more as you are not part of the community and don't uphold our core values. I don't want to stop people who have a real grievance, and we will continue to help those who need it, but those who threaten legal action to get "their" way will suffer the ultimate penalty - permanent ex-communication from this forum.

Some activities, such as stalking, etc are already illegal, and thus as we nearly all live under Australian law (or similar common law equivalents), we shouldn't have to list the crimes you might be able to commit here seperately. However, I do want to have a list of things we might call "a statement of values" - those topics/activities that might get your post summarily deleted and potentially your user banned.

Andrew

Thought of something else. (Instead of working) I have seen some really pointed posts on the Samba site re work performed rip offs ect.
In probably the most letigious nation in the world, how do this and other forums in the states get on.
Is it worth contacting a couple of these forums and ask how they handle this and terms/discalimers in place?

Glen,

They don't have our rooted defamation laws. They also have the first amendment.

And plus their lawyers are usually conversant on what will and wont get it up in court.

Andrew

Andrew

Can you add ONE more rule to the list please

Please enjoy the forum... and try to have some fun and add a bit of humor.

Dave, that should be our "First Amendment"

they're all good i can agree with them considering i think i already obide by them already.

I will ask my barrister friend after the long weekend to give us something as certified legal advice.

Maybe a checklist for admins and guidelines for participants.

Matt.

I just want to jump on the "look out who you give personal details to" bandwagon. If one member has a dispute with another, you should not just automatically give the one's information to the other without a court order. That protects your bum too.

I belong to another board with an active trading forum and it is a rule there that the site's owners have nothing to do with transactions but in the event of one going sour, will give all information to Police or a lawyer with a court order. That information may be your Email address, the IP address from which a post was posted, etc. I'm sure vBulletin records all of that info and with the co-operation of ISP's absolute identity of the poster can be established.

Oh, they also require a "real" email address, rather than a free one, like hotmail, yahoo etc. That seems reasonable enough to me!

Postmodern,

The phrase is from the US, where they have no privacy laws, so it needs to be ditched / re-written.

The Cwth Privacy Act prevails, regardless of what we do, which is essentially that we do not disclose info without your consent if we haven't gathered that info for other purposes and you have agreed to that third use.

Luckily, what the forum (and us as admins) knows about you is in the profile area, which is visible to all regardless. So we can't disclose anything more than you put in there. And the only thing that must be in there is a username and an e-mail address for the registration process.

Also, we don't have a privacy statement. I'll fix that.

Hotrodmatt, I am not about to refuse an offer of help, but isn't that barrister friend also advising someone here on another matter? I don't want to cause a conflict of interest.

Andrew

Policy revision. I've revised the implementation date and the policy. Changes are in red.

If I'm keeping us open to open-ended legal attack for another month, I ask you all * pretty please * to be nice until it's in place.

Keep the suggestions coming!

Andrew

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by vanderaj]

Spook wrote:2nd paragraph; Define "objectionable".

For arguements sake, what I say to Birchall, will be taken the way it's meant but someone else may find it offensive.

Does a comment need to be aimed particular party for that party to have grounds of complaint??

Legally, "objectionable" is in the eye of the "reasonable person". You, I, Dave, and nearly everyone here are poor examples, but the law doesn't take this into account. Luckily, since most of us don't mind playful banter, there's not lawsuits flying around on each and every thread. It's only when the shit hits the fan...

I think the current standard of "reasonable person" is someone who likes watching A Current Affair and thinks it is a fair and balanced journalistic bastion of integrity.

4th paragraph; "the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever."

You best explain that one to me in full detail.

It's an "out". It means we can delete ANY post for no reason. What will happen in reality is that dodgy posts move to the suspended threads forum for further review and if they really are dodgy they are deleted. But sometimes, it's just safer legally to say "Too bad, it's gone".

As we get close to our disk space limits, this will actually happen en masse - old threads not read in over 12 months will be pruned from the board automatically. There's no malice in it, it's just normal administrivia. But this baby gives us the right to do so.

Try convincing me that we should codify this another way - I'll listen.

Lastly, the 3rd paragraph.
With the exception of threatening & vulgar, every other term is open to interpretation.
Are you aware that NOT talking to someone is harrassment?
I sh!t you not.

We don't run censorship here, you can say "shit" and so on. Some of those terms are actually legally defined. Their definition only comes into play once they've hit the court. What I'm trying to do is encourage people to post nice happy VW thoughts, rather than posts of the other variety. We end up closing 1916 threads on a regular basis cos of this.

In light of the current situation, the only rule we need is;
Don't comment on a bussiness, regardless of if you think you've been screwed.

No, we need more rules than that. We already have one codified rule - no nudity and we are now simply going to delete any post that talks negatively about any business, regardless of the truth. Every few months, someone flames someone and we get threatened with a lawsuit.

That HAS to stop, or aussieveedubbers stops. Hopefully, by giving you folks a chance to significantly input into the rules that we can all agree on, it will stop.

Spook, you had good suggestions. Keep 'em up.

Andrew

Just had a look at the second draft.
No probs where's the click to accept buttom !!!

Congrats Andrew.
Should keep all happy.

I'll get this off my chest first.

"WE" had nothing to do with the no nudity rule.
That was YOU! Don't ever forget that.

Now, you haven't really answered the question.....Objectionable.

Any reasonable person?
That's awfully open.
Exactly which member (aside from me) IS NOT a reasonable person??
So anyone can have a post removed at their whim.

Deleting of the "old" posts has always been on.
But that aint what's written here.
Who decides what is dodgy??

When I typed shit this morning, it read pooo. that's why I edited it. Tell me again about censorship.

Lastly, & I think importantly, if I, or any other existing member refuse to accept your rules, what course of action will be taken?

Because, Andrew, if the answer is exclusion, you will find yourself in court.
As no law can be made retrospective, neither can any rule.

When I signed on there were no rules.
While I accept that you can do this to newbies as a condition of entry. I'm already in.

So expulsion would have to fall under much the same catagory as the unfair dismissal laws.


[Edited on 5-6-2003 by Spook]

"Hotrodmatt, I am not about to refuse an offer of help, but isn't that barrister friend also advising someone here on another matter? I don't want to cause a conflict of interest."

Andrew, no she's not advising anyone on anything related to anything here. Barristers only deal with things when they get to court. Solicitors would be providing advice prior to proceedings. Solicitors are usually retained by businesses asa matter of course - not only when the "need" arrises.

So in short, no conflict.

Matt.

""WE" had nothing to do with the no nudity rule.
That was YOU! Don't ever forget that."

Actually no.

I was and am ONE of the ppl who object to nudity here I have and will continue to click the report button if ppl post nudity here. I know others who also object to this but will leave it to them to name themselves if they wish.

"Now, you haven't really answered the question.....Objectionable."

Wrong - its a legal term - if you dont like start a campaign and change the law.

"When I typed SHIT this morning it read poo that's why I edited it. Tell me again about censorship."

Speak to your ISP when I type SHIT it reads **Censored Censored** (to me I dont know if ne1 else can still see it) because my ISP filters for content it doesn't always pick it up and sometimes you can fool it but 70%ish of the time it filters it out.
It does this on all websites.

"if I, or any other existing member refuse to accept your rules, what course of action will be taken?"

By using continuing to use the forum you accept - tuff

"While I accept that you can do this to newbies as a condition of entry. I'm already in.
So expulsion would have to fall under much the same catagory as the unfair dismissal laws."

No and NO ( In that order )

My comments may seem rude and harse to some ppl here but when this discussion happened about 6 months ago I suggested guidline that would have kept us out of trouble and without fear losing the forum.

I am also tired of Spook using every opportunity to attack Andrew.

Get over it mate.

What it comes down to is that you have to accept the guidlines or risk losing the forum Andrew and Jim are being more than reasonable by putting it up for sensible discussion, but sensible discussion does come in the form of personal attack.

If you dont like the new rules as they are defined by the members and administrators then dont let the Virtual Door hit you on the Virtual ass on the way out.

A seperate post for a more serious suggestion.

"all in all it seems to show
You dont know what you've got till its gone."
Lets think of it this way,
Were roundabouts invented when you got your licence? Regardless, you still have to take responsibility for your driving and follow the rules pertaining to round abouts, and if you dont know the rules then you are failing to maintain your knowledge, and cops will fine you for that too on top of the fine for the original offence, and if you continue to disregard the rules the the cops will take away your driving priveledges.
I think its like a life boat, It doesnt matter how many people have a claim to a seat for whatever reason, the fact remains that if everyone piles in without thinking about the consequences, then the boat will sink and NOBODY gets to enjoy any of the benefits.
So I think its a good Idea ensure the boat doesn't sink, no matter what.
This is a coment for all, and not directed at any one person, based on the feeling I get from reading these posts
Cheers Tony

Now with apologise (sp?) to our members here who are under the legal age (And I have no idea what that is in this country)

but you will need to say that ppl under the age of x must get parental consent.

I am truly sorry to bring this up as I have chatted to some of the younger members here and found them to be more mature and responsible than many of the ppl I have dealing with in everyday life.

Okay, well censorship has always been an issue, but at the same time, common sense must provail and after all this is a forum, where many different members have many different opinions, so moderators must have an open mind about that very issue. For example, the nudity thing, half members don't mind it at all, including women at the time, but half of the people didn't like it, so it was dropped.

This new set of rules is basically to protect people. People like the mods, the admin, the Forum. You, the members, must be accountable for what you say, just like you are in real life, and thats the idea of this, because until now, it has been us, the admin/ mods/ forum that has done it for you, but we can no longer, and won't any longer, wear the flack from it. No longer.

For the more senior members, such as Spook, Birchall and so on, they are grown men that know what they can and can't say, and generally have been here at the forum for just as long as me, and a lot longer than most, so lets not only cut these people a bit of slack, but show them some respect and respect their opinions if they have the balls to speak it.



[Edited on 5-6-2003 by BenettonVW]

vanderaj wrote:Luckily, what the forum (and us as admins) knows about you is in the profile area, which is visible to all regardless. So we can't disclose anything more than you put in there. And the only thing that must be in there is a username and an e-mail address for the registration process.

Surely each post has an IP address as well? If not, you might consider updating vBulletin.

I can probably give you the contact details of the forum owner I was talking about if you're interested in the "whys". He had to shut down for some months while he went thru a few legal battles. I believe he spent literally tens of thousands in legal fees defending himself as he was sued for the words of a forum member. They now have a strict "no vendor verdicts" policy. I want to see aussieveedubbers have a long and useful life. It would be good to learn from others' bad experiences rather than your own.


[Edited on 5-6-2003 by PostModern]

Trouble is that a lot ppl still use dial up and a few on adsl / cable will still get assigned different IP addresses so you could only say for certain which isp made the post.

The simple fact here is that in reality the changes won't make a bit of difference to 99% of the ppl here.

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by fatboy]

The court would go to the ISP and ask for the DHCP logs to be checked and find out whose account and (according to the mail I just got from Optus) which phone number used that IP at the time of the post - even if you switch off caller ID.

It can be, and is, done.

EDIT: Yes, but it's the 1% that cause all the pooo.

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by PostModern]

Of course you could just delete everyones account make them sign up again.

:jesus

I see no problem with the new rules, basically because I have no plans to break them. :thumb

Spook wrote:Because, Andrew, if the answer is exclusion, you will find yourself in court.
As no law can be made retrospective, neither can any rule.

bzzz no gong for you. I paid $800 for the best radar detector money could buy a few years ago. If I put it in my car now, even if its in the box, I will be fined.

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by amazer]

Just had the Missus read these posts,

she is a solicitor,
and stated that the forum can restrict any one it wants, it can also be held responsible for other peoples comments as it is publishing them,
She did inform me that if I said " fred Boggs changed the brakes on my kombi and I drove it home and the wheel fell off" i could not be sued , neither could the forum.
If I went on and said they changed thebrakes and the wheel fell of "they are crap dont ever use them" I could get done for deformation and so could the forum for publishing it.

She did say that there is no record of any site in OZ being sued yet

The way around this is to state on the first page of the forum that comments are from the individuals and do not represent the views of the forum or its operators.

She told me that the truth is absolute defense so if a company/person has done wrong and you can prove it then you have nothing to worry about.
I am only saying this as i think this is all down to the the fact that some one has slagged off a supplier, could be wrong.

Another thing, in the South Australian Supreme Court it was found that the word FU*K was not found to be offensive , but then some people might find it offensive it all goes to the person who said it and in what context it is said(i didnt want to type it incase I am kicked off this forum).
I have inthe past stood up for freedom of speech and always will, its just really sad when it gets to this.

We seem to have thses episodes every 6 months and a lot of it has to do with the way some moderators talk down to other members and say it WILL happen this way or You Will do this , I think if a little bit of tact was used we would all get on a bit better,

I agree with Jim a few people have been on this forum a lot longer than some moderators and deserve a bit of respect.
As usual just my 2 cents worth , and it is only my view.

Also FatBoy, this site is to do with volksy's so why do you have that comment about the war on your posts,
I find that offensive so will you remove it.
Isnt that the same as you found nudity offensive, The fact about the nudity was that some one decided to get rid of the post after they had said they needed to get a special program to enhance it to see pink bits, yes it was Andrew and that is why Spook was pi$$ed off, so where a few others, it wasnt that it was taken off it was the way that it was done.
Cheers
Dave:jesus

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by 57kombi]

57kombi wrote:She did say that there is no record of any site in OZ being sued yet

Ah. Now that you mention it, it appears the site I hinted at was threatened with a law suit and spent a ton of money on advice about how to avoid a full-blown suit.

Their rules are here and here. Long and convoluted due to the legal expenses they've had to face in the past.

[Edited on 5-6-2003 by PostModern]

This is the stuff I mentioned earlier about info only under court order.

The Broadcasting Services Act provides a statutory defence for Internet Content Hosts against suits for subsidiary publication of defamatory materials. Therefore, if a person has a problem with the content of a post, their only remedy is to contact OCAU to ask that the post be removed. If they want to know the identity of the person who made the potentially defamatory post, they should apply to a NSW court for an order for OCAU to hand over whatever information OCAU has which could potentially be used to identify the person. They will have to pay all costs associated with that court order. Once OCAU receives such a court order, we will happily comply with it and then the person with the complaint is free to attempt to directly sue the person who actually made the post for defamation, at their own cost. OCAU will play no further part in the matter.

I have no problems living under the rules.
The 'without any reason' statement is everywhere. Its in CAMS documents. Doesnt mean you are going to be kicked out for being ugly or left handed or ... ( i do hope nobody is ugly and left handed . entirely ficticious, any resemblance to forum members living or dead coincidental)
If you go and start listing reasons then you cant do whatever it is when that one reason you dont list shows up.

I've had the power to delete or edit threads since day one. I dont need a reason. I can do it anytime and nobody would know who did it. Certain people and threads I'd like to do it to every day. But I dont. Nobody here is a nazi. Everything that has been done has been done in consultation with other mods online as far as I know.

If we dont have rules and make people stick to them, who is going to maintain the forum? Maybe if we kick in $100 each to fund andrews liability insurance he will stay on. Or do we just keep losing people like brad until there is no more forum?

perhaps those who want a flaming enriched, porn drenched vw forum could make their own?

I am not discussing nudity again as I simply cannot get through to those who like their pink bits.

On the issue of respect. I am a nice guy. People who know me and have met me know this to be true. By default, I respect everyone, particularly those active in the scene. But if anyone time and time again kicks virtual sand in my face for no apparent reason, I don't have to take that. If you have lost my trust and respect, well, it takes an awful long time to regain it, and only through consistent and wilful application of being thoughtful, active members who give selflessly to their community. I don't see that AT ALL in the one or two people who seem to have lost my respect.

I have tried to respect Spook's views. If you look at the edits, they positively reflect many of Spook's suggestions / comments, such as a time extension and clarification of certain points. I edit them, and he kicks back at me again. Respect? Yeah, right.

---

On the < 18 y.o. issue - fatboy you are right. Less than 18 yo's can't sign binding contracts, so them clicking "accept" will not be valid. Let me do some research on a method to do this. I think we have three active < 18 y.o's - Adam, Zac, and Moonlight and there will be others. I don't want to lose any of them.

Andrew

PostModern wrote:The court would go to the ISP and ask for the DHCP logs to be checked and find out whose account and (according to the mail I just got from Optus) which phone number used that IP at the time of the post - even if you switch off caller ID.

I looked at that when I worked at OptusNet. Caller ID blocked are logged by the 5300's like this:

03 9395 4XXX

ie, they can tell roughly where you are from, but provide you with a bit of anonyminity. Emergency services don't face this block - hospital and 000 switches have your number and address flash up when you ring them, but lucky for you guys, we aren't an emergency service!

Now, yes, we do have the time and your IP address from where you logged in last, and the time and IP address from which you posted every single post.

Theoretically, we could bring that up by doing custom queries. If required by discovery to do so, we would HAVE to provide this information, or face contempt of court and potentially jail. I like you folks, but not enough to become someone's beaaatch.

Andrew

an ip address is owned by an isp, even if you are on a dial-up account the isps records will show which user account an ip address was allocated to at any given time, rather than the phone number you dialled in from...

solicitors/lawyers/barristers can say whatever they like. The facts are that people do get sued. It doesnt matter if they 'can' or not. they do. Even if you are in the right, it still costs money to prove you're right.

Lets face it. the whole liability crisis comes from law firms advertising that they can sue people, pay no costs unless you win rubbish. I'm not sure if we should blame those people or shoddy defense lawyers. The fact remains, they will sue because they can make money out of it.

There's few places in this country where you can say what you like and not be held accountable. And to get to those places you have to be a politican. Coincidently a lot of politicians are law graduates.

Ride out the storm andrew! You got my support.

hool, you are right.

But Optusnet also keep the caller ID string. We used it to find abused staff (zero rated) accounts.

Andrew

rules unfortunately are a fact of life. this forum has grown beyond the casual meeting place where everyone knew each personally and didn't take offence unnecessarily. there are plenty of people on here who have never met each other and the one-dimensional nature of this type of communication often makes it easy to take comments the wrong way.

you've also attracted a lot of companies that make their living from the vw community. as an individual i can cope with crap being directed to me as an individual, however any comments directed at my business that have the potential to impact my livelihood (and my ability to provide for my family) i would take more seriously, as the consequences are obviously more serious.

the mods and admins on this forum are doing a great job in keeping this forum going and growing. i can't see that they would delete or alter any posts for no reason, and i think they have already shown a very responsible and moderate approach.

i also don't believe they should be held liable for any comments posted by members, however i would hope that they would act sensibly, as they have done in the past, to manage any weirdness - take it offline and help the parties involved resolve their problems in private.

someone mentioned in a previous post that no site in australia has been sued yet - yet is the operative word, and i wouldn't want this forum to be the precedent.

to those that don't like the rules and disclaimers, i suggest getting over it, in the best interest of the forum. if you can't get over it then suggest a sensible alternative - all i've read so far is criticism without any constructive alternatives offered

optus abused staff?? now i find that hard to believe!!

hehehe!

Not quite!

The help desk is manned by various itinerants like backpackers, etc. They get a free dial in account for some reason, which also has no restrictions like time outs or download limits, or similar.

Many chose to share details of the account inappropriately. We had to make sure that staff weren't letting their accounts being abused.

The SQL query for that was a bit of a nightmare, and took a while to run.

Also, hool, thanks for the feedback. I've seen some - in my opinion borderline - posts about the rare cars you have available for purchase, and I appreciate you not taking the matter in the wrong way.

Andrew

so the staff actually abused optus - well done! (i don't like their door to door sales people very much...)

as for the comments about our cars, they're to be expected - i'd hate to live in a world where everyone had the same opinion! most of the comments are now water under the bridge anyway

good luck with your current tribulations, you're doing well!

julian

Just look at the BIG PICTURE and stop whining about the fine print,if people cant play with a few simple rules and the majority can then the minority can POQ.I dont think some people realise just how fragile our forum is and how quickly it could disappear,if the few people that are running this forum tossit in whose gunna step up hmmmmm yeah thats what i thought.Disclaimer:these ramblings are entirely my own,and if you dont like it then you can just go and have a nice day.:P

For the last time my beef is not with the lost nudity.
It is the principle.
That a decision made by the entire forum(at the time) was overturned by one man with no discussion whatsoever.
Subject matter is irrelevant. It should never have been done that way.
That he gained support for it after the event is of no consequence.
It was wrong & will always remain wrong.


To the matter at hand;
From what I can see Andrew, if we must have rules, you only need paragraph 2- the views are not that of the forum, paragraph 6 - you are responsible for what you say, the last paragraph & the copyright bit.

The rest of it is to wide open.
For example; Fatboy has obviously found my last post on this subject objectionable.
Had this been the 6th of July instead of June would that post be removed?
If not, why not?
Is he not a reasonable person?

Can you see what I'm getting at??

The idea of a forum is a place of open discussion & debate.
Now a debate by definition needs 2 OPPOSING sides.
For those of you who haven't been around long, we have had some humdingers.
But how can you have a debate if one, or both, sides have the others posts removed because it's objectionable, harrassing, inacurate?

For those shaking their head, 12 months ago someone from the forum getting sued was hilarious.
I don't hear anyone laughing now.

I've asked you to define objectionable, now the rule says "etc".
That doesn't exactly narrow the field Andrew.
A post that is complained about will be removed if you or another moderator deem it necessary.
Are you going to explain why it was or was not removed?
Aren't you going to insult the member who either posted or asked for the removal?
Isn't that harrassment?


It's to broad, & to leave it broad like that is to leave it open to abuse. Best to leave it out altogether.

By all means keep the disclaimers, but lose the rest of it..........😎

Simple reason why no sites have yet been successfully sued for libel yet in Australia. As publishers they do the simple thing and publish a retraction. The publishers don't loose anything from doing that and if the original poster doesn't do the same they go to court.
And yes this has happened - several times.

By the way. Truth might be a defence in SA it isn't in NSW, VIC actually the majority of places. Defamation laws are state laws. In NSW truth & proof are not always a valid defence.

Gutnick Vs Dow Jones gives us a good example of why we have to be especially carefull. If a libellous piece is seen somewhere, or could be seen somewhere defamation proceedings can be listed in that place. Hence they go to where the law best suits them. Dow Jones (a U.S. company) published an article. Gutnick didn't like it. It was found that there are about 300 licences in Victoria that could have been used to look at the article. That's 300 chances - not 300 people saw it (we have over 1000 chances). The case was heard here. The courts ruled that it is published whereever it can be read.

By the way... even newspapers/television etc use the waiver/disclaimer - and guess what? They always still get the arse end of the proceedings. Unless they do the simple retraction and then leave the author to fight there own battles....


***So if you want to use the forum - follow the rules.***

Why cant you people get it.

It wasnt about the nudity it was the fact that one person decided what the rest can or cant see.
That is what spook is on about
We dont need nudity on this site . but it was used as an example.

Just put a disclaimer on the beginning of the site and post what ever you want.

If people dont want to view it , they dont open it,
A forum is about discussion, now some people want to force their point of view on others by deleting posts without giving anyone a chance to comment.

P
Andrew please name the parties involved in this dispute, It is not illegal to do that and you will not be sued.

Just stick with the disclaimer and lets get back to using the forum for what Jim intended it for.
To Discuss and make comment about Volkswagens(this name is used with out the authorirty of VW.ag, Volkswagen America or any other affiliation of Volkswagen)

do we really have to go the way of some other sites.

Cheers
Dave
Again it is just my opinion and open to interpretation if you dont like my view, who cares as it is mine and you cant take it away.


:jesus:jesus

The most recent action is between DakDat and CBB. That is an on-going matter between them, and I will not comment on it further.

Gratifyingly, we were notified late last night via e-mail that CBB are not going to sue Aussieveedubbers, or Brad, Jim or myself, and will be receiving the notification in writing soon. Personally, I am much relieved that Brad's and my efforts to resolve this issue (including this thread) have come to this (in my view) successful outcome. One less thing to worry about.

However, there have been other legal threats in the last month or two (think of the 1916 threads), and I want examples like these and any future threats against us to stop, or at least be minimized to those where we actually have something to answer for.

I am all for a simplified version or bullet points that is in even more plain English than the current one... as long as it covers our collective petards. However, the simpler we make it, the more open it will be to interpretation as we remove conditionals, which works against Spook's requests to make it tighter as to what may be deleted.

Andrew

57kombi wrote:Why cant you people get it.

It wasnt about the nudity it was the fact that one person decided what the rest can or cant see.
That is what spook is on about
We dont need nudity on this site . but it was used as an example.

It's not just an example. It's THE example as there are no others. I've apologised for it, we changed the way we do that now, and I can't re-iterate this time and time again every time Spook selectively forgets about all the other times.

In that ONE incident, someone posted nudity. A few people (mostly women, but that's irrelevant) objected to this post, some of whom are very active posters. We have over 40000 threads here, and probably we've received complaints on 10 or so threads. None of them as many as this one thread. Without reference, I made the call to delete the image. It later turned out to be a problem with our hosting as well (we're not allowed host nudity), so it became official policy regardless of whether I or anyone likes pr0n or not here. There are other arguments against nudity here, too, such as no adult verification system, etc. But they're irrelevant in the face of our contractual obligations not to host nudie pics.

A forum is about discussion, now some people want to force their point of view on others by deleting posts without giving anyone a chance to comment.

As I've stated before, the practice we do at the moment is simple - we snaffle the post for further review and then we either put it back (rare) or we keep it hidden if a majority of the mods think it's bad. But the rules need to cover our petards, so it's blanket.

do we really have to go the way of some other sites.

Yes, or we simply have to do as some of those other sites did - close down. I'm sorry we live in a country with rooted defamation laws and no freedom of speech, but ...

Andrew

can u please check ur u2u

concerning my group buys

cheers
:beer

good work. if this is what is needed to keep an operation of this size going then go for it.

its shitty that the forum has had to come to this but its just following suit like every other bloody thing in australia know!!!!
i support any rules made and try my hardest not to break them!
but as the old saying goes " rules are there to be broken"
cheers
rhys

Wouldnt a disclaimer such as
"all information posted on this messageboard is the opinion of the user who posted it and therefore the owners and operators shall not be held responsible for information posted"

i have no problem wiyth the rules put foward but if something like that is legally sound and protects the board but leaves the user open to be held for libel thatn i think it would be better.....

what do you think????

now to read the rest of this topic . . . . . . .

I’d also like to add that these rules are needed to continue this forum and those who don’t like it will have to live with it coz without the implication of these rules then we couldn’t continue using this site
With Australia being the most litigious country in the world I think better safe than sorry

I think i just cracked a nail whilst tapping away on my keyboard, anyone know a good lawyer ?

😀

On a closing note, and a successful and happy tune, the Forum or admin won't be included in any legal action, and as Andrew said, thats all that will be said about that.

Just whilst I am on the soapbox, I think it is very important with this respect issue, to take it quite seriously. Now I apologise in advance for singling you out, but members such as lugnuts, please just think about what you are writing in regards to other members and criticism of their comments and/ or opinions.
Comments like "Just look at the BIG PICTURE and stop whining about the fine print,if people cant play with a few simple rules and the majority can then the minority can POQ." are just plain unneccessary. Sure we all think that from time to time, but it takes more thought to actually decide not to do it. This is what I request. Alternatively, I agree with you on the point that the forum is fragile. Again, just making an example and I apologise for singling you out.

Again, people like 57 Kombi, Spook, Baja Wes and so on have been here for virtually two years. TWO YEARS. Thats about 22 months longer than some of you, so lets show a little bit of respect, and more so respect for their opinions and knowledge.

Andrew, it's open to interpretation now!!

Imagine, if you will, this scenario;
As of midnight on June 30, I click a yes button. OK.

I am now obligated that, henceforth, no post I put on this forum will, either intentionally or inadvertantly, criticise, alienate, discriminate, harrass or otherwise offend, or be percieved to offend any one, or group, of the other 1100 odd members..... EVER!

That is what your asking for.

Now, I cannot & will not even attempt to garantee that. And I doubt anyone else could.
Because at the end of the day we do have over 1100 members & with the miracle of DNA we are all entirely different.

The down side of that is what is offensive is soley up to the individual.

That can range from you basic FO with knobs, to commenting on the worst paint colour you've ever seen- only to find out another member has just spent 5K getting their car sprayed in that colour.

This person then objects to this post & the moderator is obliged to remove it, because if he/she doesn't, they have just deemed the complainant to be not a reasonable person. Which I would see as an even graver insult.

And again Andrew, this is what is being proposed.
Which moderator do you think is so omniscient that they know what is or is not offensive to each & every one of 1100 people?
What you are proposing is unworkable.

I can give you a moral dillema, & it's a true story.
A guy once asked where he could get a 15 window deluxe splt.
Brad made a smartarse comment about it.
Brad knew it was just a shot, I knew, Jim knew & most of the rest of us at the time knew.
This guy didn't! He spat the dummy at Brad, then Jim spat the dummy at him.
He aint ever been back.

Here's a puzzle for you. Had these rules been in force then, would you have had a moderator remove the posts of, not one but two administrators & apologise to a newbie??

This is the reality of what your proposing.

It would be good for everyone to agree on everything, we'd have world peace by tea time tomorrow.
But Utopia only exists in the minds of poets.

As I've said I fully agree with individual blame & absolution of the forum & affiliates.

But there are just too many variables to try to "legislate"(for want of a better word) against members differences. & the more members the more variables you get.

[Edited on 6-6-2003 by Spook]

Everybody on this site has installed software.
The majority of users would have installed Microsoft Software.
At the time of installation you are required to accept the license agreement if you dont accept you dont get to use the software.
How many ppl have actually read all of the license agreement ? how many have contacted Microsoft to try and negotiate it ?.
Simply put everyone accepts the agreement because they want the product installed and they want to use it.

Spook - i can see where your coming from , but as every case is going to be unique the only thing the mods can do as a group is treat each case as it occurs. - maybe the statement to use would be something like "any post which may threaten the future of, or cause a financial impact to www.aussieveedubers.com will be removed "

I think that would be wide enough to give the mods the authority they need.
For example if two members calling each other names then its fairly obvious that there would be no threat to aussieveedubbers.

Well wotcha think ?

PS Spook - I have been told that I'm the most reasonable person in the world - apart from everybody else 😉

I've not said your not a reasonable man brother.

I have asked a straight forward question regarding what is being proposed, you just happen to be the example..........😎

But it also goes back to the 1st thing I asked on the 1st post.
A 3rd party has taken offence to what I have directed at someone else. How is that going to work?

Funnily enough my questions have not been answered.

But the more sinister side of it is as you said, all cases will be unique, BUT, why would it be up to a moderator, or group thereof, to decide anything?

They've already been told someone, for some reason has found a post offensive.

Someone is offended, or they are not.
What's to discuss??

[Edited on 6-6-2003 by Spook]

Spook no offense taken - just "crackin a funny"

The reason I made the suggestion of using my statement.

"any post which may threaten the future of, or cause a financial impact to www.aussieveedubers.com will be removed "

Is that it doesn't refer to anyone being offended.
Some ppl here would be offended with my signature - but it is clearly not going to "threaten the future..." etc.

It would be up to a moderator to make the decision because that is precisley the kind of function a mod postion is meant to control. They "Moderate" the Forum.
Someone will have to do it or the Forum will cease to exist.

Protection of the forum;

"The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of the forum........"

" You remain solely responsible for the content of your message, and you agree to indemnify.....this forum......with respect to any claim..."
There is a bit about threaten legal action & your out on your arse, leave the bit about copyright, & although I've yet to see a pyramid scheme or chain letter on here, you can have that bit if you like.
Plus, the disclaimer at the bottom of each page.

Forum protected. Period.

As to the rest of it, I don't think it needs to be re-worded. It needs to be scrapped altogether.

Aside from the gaping holes I have already pointed out, let me walk you in the other direction.

Where are the penalties?
For every set rule there must logically be a set penalty for a breach of the said rule.
I can find only one.
Who will decide if your to be penalised & how?

But then;
"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false........."

Knowingly???
Let me assure you good people over the past 41 years I have made some mistakes.
But, like 99.9% of the population, I tend to find out I'm wrong AFTER the event.
Therefore the statement "I didn't know" makes this rule null & void, unless someone wants to call you a liar, which is harrassment & therefore not allowed..🙁

Confused yet??

I object to the use of the word "HARRASS".
In the last 10 years, harrassment has become the broadest term in the Engish language,

My fear is, with a "thou shalt not'
set of rules, no clear penalties, no clear avenue of appeal, & the fact that you will now be obligated to be aware of the sensibilties of 1100 people you have never met, not just the person you are directly replying to, no one will be game to speak their mind.
The forum will degenerate into mindless chit chat.
And THAT, boys & girls will be the end of the forum.

Rules to protect the forum by all means we don't need the rest..........😎

Out of all the posting on this particular thread I have to AGREE with spook's comments.

1. When I was INVITED to this forum there were no rules as such.

2. Rules have been forced upon me and other members of this forum. Some of which were given with no warning.

3. If you want people to accept your NEW rules them you MUST have everyone register again.

Michael,

fair enough. You have until June 30 to help make the rules more accomodating to your tastes. 🙂

After that, you will need to agree to the new rules, and if you don't like them, your ability to post will be disabled.

I will be putting up draft 3 after dinner.

Andrew

Then I'll make no further comment until I see #3......😎

This is a forum for the humble VW and their owners…not a site of national security or importants…. get over it

click the "accept" button to the NEW rules and regulations and get on with life or better yet, get one.

written and authorized by ‘DakDat’

wHAT IS WRONG WITH JUST HAVING A DISCLAIMER AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FORUM AND THEN HAVING TO CLICK THE AGREE BUTTON TO ENTER, THE DISCLAIMER COULD SAY ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK AND ANY COMMENTS ARE NOT THE VIEWS OF THE FORUM OPERATORS.
tHAT SHOULD INDEMNIFY THEM AGAINST LEGAL ACTION.

tHEN WE CAN GET BACK TO HOW IT WAS WHEN WE ALL FIRST STARTED POSTING.
aND THANKS JIM YOU HAVE JUST MADE ME REALISE I HAVE BEEN HERE FOR 2 YEARS,,,,,COULD HAVE SPENT THAT TIME ON THE KOMBI.

CHEERS
DAVE

I cant believe we are having to make this forum so complicated, if you look at some of the U.K. forums you see topics and comments we wouldnt even think of posting,
But no one complains they just get on with it.
The VW scene here is about 5% of the size of the U.K. scene, yes that is just a guess, but you know what I mean.
Anyway lets just get back to doing what we come here for, good topics and even better debates, if you dont like a comment ask someone to explain why they made that comment.

Lets just all chill out.
Too many rules makes jack a fu#ken boring pri#k

Cheers
Dave

[Edited on 8-6-2003 by 57kombi]

Because Dakdat, as soon as you click the accept button THAT post would be gone...😎

Hey Spook.

We still standing up for the little guy.!!!
That little guy is called free speech

Cheers
Dave

Spook wrote:Because Dakdat, as soon as you click the accept button THAT post would be gone...😎

I know all about posts being removed...

but in the long run, who gives a fuck...it's just one of a thousand forums on WWW.

So if the powers to be want to ******, so be it, I won't lose any sleep, will you?

written and authorized by ‘DakDat’

I give a fuck!

I've been here from the outset & I have no doubt become wiser for the effort.
There's been debate, discussion & hours of amusement.

But it's the amusement part that will suffer the most, if not put down altogether.

Case study 1.
A debate on whether a beetle is still streamline, got a little heated between Wes & myself.
Jim told us to stop fighting.
My next post went along the lines of; we aren't fighting it's just Wes proving when your young you know everything.
Wes's response was roughly: when you get to Spooks age you get senile & forget.

Innocent enough, a lot funnier if you see the rest of the thread.
Now add these rules.

Vilification on the basis of age- Illegal-Gone.
With Wes & myself on a charge of breaching the rules that we clicked a 'yes' button to, thereby giving an undertaking to abide by them.

Case study 2;
Our glorious lord & master posts a photo of a VERY well endowed young lady in a tank top & a pair of shorts (that she must have used a shoehorn to get on).

Now every post on this thread used words like headlights, high beam, over riders, airbags, headrest.
Not one said"get a load of the tits on that".
But that's what they all meant.

One of the new rules; thou shalt not post anything sexually orientated.

So the picture could stay because she was fully clad, but EVERY subsequent post is removed!!!
And every one of us who had a comment, again, breaching the rules we agreed to.
That's a lot of senior members that just got black balled.

Dave, I'm all for freedom of speech, but even I know a line has got to be drawn somewhere.
Things like direct abuse & direct threats have no place here. Never have had. But the moderators have always had the power to remove that, & it's been done before.
But by the same token, you can't take away someones right to be an arsehole.
And for the record Dakdat, some of my posts have been removed too.
However I do think I get away with a little more than most.

But as I said, I give a fuck.
There are a lot of forums on the net, but THIS FORUM is the one that I have watched grow & I like to think that my input has in some way shaped that growth.

I am as passionate about this forum as anyone here, probably more so than many & I will not stand by & watch it be crippled through fear.

Because that is what it's all about.
Fear of some kind of repercussion.........😎

Now where's draft 3 Andrew? I've been waiting 2 days & the clock is ticking.





[Edited on 8-6-2003 by Spook]

You guys are so funny. 🙂

I love you all. Great to see you haven't been wasting your weekend.

On this topic, I can't remember what Colin said but I agreed with it when I read it a couple of pages back. I to give a F**k as I have seen the forum grow like Spook, Dave, Brad, Rhys etc. I would hate to see it go, and yes I could go to another forum but it would not be the same. I see all sides of the story and each are valid I believe. In some way there is over reaction but this is better than complacency. Before this date then I happy medium will hopefully have been reached.

The ongoing rivalry is healthy. I disagree when it becomes personal.

Long live the forum.

Post on Dubbers!

New version is up.

Spook, I tried including some of your points regarding simplification and clarification, but realistically, that doesn't provide us with the protection we need from potentially harmful posts. I totally understand where you're coming from, but I need you to understand, we cannot be as laissez faire as we were. The old friendly way got us threatened several times, and we came extraordinarily close to being sued. At the moment, even if we wanted to, I doubt we could now obtain public liability insurance based upon our prior history. My, Jim's or Brad's house is not worth the principle of free speech in this instance.

We don't take action against the overwhelming and vast majority of posts - at this stage any particular post has an approximately 0.01% chance (ie 10/52300) of being deleted.

These rules are to catch those very, very, very few posts that cause us and / or someone on this board real harm.

Andrew

I just had a read and they seem to be fine.

Basically they reflect common sence. Those that don't have any can read the agreement.

You still have freedom to say what you like but an awarness of what is acceptable has been defined. A margin of error is allowable so if you cross the line continually you are warned and so on.

More importantly an internal forum of moderators decides what is 'reasonable' and not one person. Still one person has the right to remove a post like everyone has the right to report offending posts but then if that moderator is being unreasonable then the post is returned.

I agree that shorter would not be better and I don't think the ask is too great. I agree with Spooks concerns. They are valid. Still we might need a 4th draft. Keep the debate going. This is your forum - we need a happy medium between workable and acceptable yet still retain the character we love about this place.

For those that are interested - my camping long weekend was great.

Reads really well Andrew.
Reasonably informal. Does it cover the legals?

Re-word the opening statement?

"Aussieveedubbers is an informal VW web based forum to connect people from all over Australia (and other parts of the world ) and discuss all sorts of topics about Volkswagens and associated makes, organize events, and so on. We hope that you have a good time here, make some good friends, attend a few events, and get more out of your Volkswagen. "

i'm relatively new to this forum.
have tried reading a lot of posts new and old. to either help my vw knowledge and or to humour me cause some of it is so interesting. it's like sitting at the pub with a couple of mates just taking our time sipping a quiet one while we banter on about shit and tell the usual stories and watch what goes on around us. we are entertaining ourselves and or learning from anothers experience.
i really have looked at this forum in this way. not everyone agrees at the pub. some are louder than others. some more drunk. some cracking onto others women and so on. but it wouldn't be the same with out all that. those that go, know and understand and dont go complaining about it. those that dont, go to the cafe, or library or where ever else it is. maybe another pub.
i believe i am in agreeance with spook. the forum won't exist if people can not have there point of view. everyone has the right to there point and if i don't agree with what someone is saying then i will express it,or ignore it. these are my choices and i accept it. if i am posting something with content that is NOT the MAJORITY then my headline will say so. i think that if some one then decides to read it, then it was there choice. people can never complain about choices. i went on a bike trip to phillip island one year. chose to go. i chose to go fast with the fast group. i new what the risks were. i wrote the bike off, on the way home. i dont complain about it and blame someone else or attack the guy who was leading. you just learn from it and get on with living life. this is what life is about. i now have another and am looking forward to phillip island again. i take porn for example( only because there is a previous history with this), anyone can view it any where so who cares. there are a lot of people that get on the internet, ( or go to a newsagency) but they dont see porn unless they look. i dont understand, if some one titles it accordingly then only those that are interested will/should view, therefor no prob. same as telling a rude joke in the pub. "excuse me ladies i'm about to say something rude, ". if the ladies are down with it then they stay if not they powder there nose. i know ladies of both persuasions and have caused no offence to either yet. and i am one for using expressions of colour regularly.
i think that we as a society are made to sufer by the few. take the council that banned ham sandwiches because of the minor few that complained.... this is real sad as australia is about ham sandwiches and these few come here for what we have, dont they. people will come to aussie veedubbers for what we have. a family of dubbers that respect each other enough to say how they feel and expect what they get...
it should be about majority. remember in school there was always more than a couple of groups of kids in your form. there was a majority then there were the geeks, the slow, the flirts, the abbos, and the just wierd ones. ( i know there are a lot of vw groups and some dont agree with others.) there is no way that these groups can work to gether. i do not think by any amount of compromise could it ever be harmonious. but then why should it. each group finds there own and accept it.
i believe this is the group of VW's and there passionate owners. i believe that we should be allowed to banter and talk and discuss and in some cases larf at ourselves. i dont believe that any amount of rules should be made to take the passion out of it.
they should be simple rules such as 'respect your fellow veedubber' , 'your opinion is your own, state it with out slagging'. 'not everyone will agree with you, be strong and accept any critism that comes your way. it will help you grow and you will aquire more vw's as a result' should apply. the forum then has its disclaimer and so be it. it is a means of expression only. those that speak should understand their own responsibilty and that should be the limit of it. if we want just make everyone who joins type the following in their first post... " i hereby accept that aussieveedubbers consist of a group of vw fans. and is an oportunity to discuss vw cars, life, love, freedom, politics or anything else that takes my interest at the moment. my title subject should clearly state what i intend to discuss. my opinion is my own and no responsibility is taken by the forum or moderators. i expect all sorts of responses and look forward to them.... and i lust my volkswagen." this is simple and their worlds would open up to the joy of our forum.
i noticed that there are a lot of members that dont use the forum. that join for what ever reason other than that to participate. when the site was down i noticed one member that has joined just to get exposure for there site, never made a post. i would suggest that if members haven't activly used the post in the first month they should be booted. if they are serious they will join again, just like the kid trying to get into the group of his/her choice. if not it shouldn't worry the rest of us. it is up to the individual to make the effort. we want to encourage active veedubbers to be active members not any body who stumbles accross the site. quality rather than quantity.
i am of the opinion that if i am going to say something on my mind then i will. i should be allowed. my opinions are my own and reflect my thoughts and interpretations and will bring about my own consequences. i expect to get those that agree and those that dont. i expect to be ignored, challenged or accepted, BUT NOT DELETED. i look forward to putting an idea or observation out there just to see the response.

SPOOK it is good that you speak up. you speak for yourself and your right to chat contest and challenge all fellow dubbers. i would also like this right. i also find that some things just seem to go too far. hope to see you at nambucca. will buy you a beer.

:thumb

Seems fine to me,


"advertising non-VW related items, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this forum"

Are we still open to sponsorship from non VW businesses ?

Hi Twoguns

Totally agree with you apart from the bit about booting people off if they havent posted in a month.
I visit every day , have done since it started but I havent made a comment every day, some times I wont post for a number of weeks, until I feel i have something to say or feel passionate about,

I understand what you mean, there have been a number of people who have joined this site just to advertise there own site.
But it doesnt harm the site, I remember Jim letting people know of this site on Total VW site, it is how we learn of other sites.
Who cares if someone comes on the site just to sell something,,,,a member might pick up a bargain.

We should all remember we have been given commonsense(some more than others) and we should use it.
Cheers

Dave

no im not worried for what reason anyone comes here for.
i just would hope that they will participate, and i hope that those that dont participate also dont have a right to complain.
i just heard people say 'oh look how we've grown... over a thousand now its real good.' but not a thousand participate. i worry about a minority ruining it for all of us. this is all.

With statements like that you should go into politics. Is anyone who disagrees placed in the minority? I think we should restrict argument on important matters to those with at least 250 posts. Maybe to those that have been here at least 12 months. How you feeling now?

I have a simple solution where you can make your own rules. (i've posted one before that was possibly too harsh) The new solution is for you to sign over your house and any other belongings you may have as security. Its easy enough for you to sit there and say lets not have rules, when you dont have anything to lose.

fatboy wrote:Are we still open to sponsorship from non VW businesses ?

[ snip to make fatboy's lame ISP work ]

Sponsorship is a different kettle of fish. I don't know why a non-VW sponsor would want to come aboard, but I'm not going to stop them.

This rule is to stop "Please buy my Amway" or "Here's a nice Nigerian gentleman who I think needs help laundering his cash".

Look at various group buys and the Fuchs and stuff going at the moment. I think we've got a reasonable balance there. I hope that the VW shops that sell stuff like that here could sponsor us and then use us as a method of getting stuff moved.

Andrew

[Edited on 10-6-2003 by vanderaj]

twoguns wrote:i worry about a minority ruining it for all of us. this is all.

You hit it on the head. A few members have gone too far, and caused us legal grief. The legal grief aspect has spoiled it for the rest of us. I'd love for there to be no rules and we just live within the Australian legal framework. But sorry, it's gone too far too often for my tastes.

Let's get a set of rules that is a good mix between laissez faire and comprehensively arse covering that we can all live with.

Andrew

vanderaj wrote:

twoguns wrote:i worry about a minority ruining it for all of us. this is all.

You hit it on the head. A few members have gone too far, and caused us legal grief. The legal grief aspect has spoiled it for the rest of us. I'd love for there to be no rules and we just live within the Australian legal framework. But sorry, it's gone too far too often for my tastes.

Let's get a set of rules that is a good mix between laissez faire and comprehensively arse covering that we can all live with.

Andrew

mmm..Andrew, is this directed to me? if so, would be happy to post the e-mail's sent , by Brad, stating it was him who suggested to name *** not I


you ppl don't know when to quit and to except blame..

May I suggest 'grow up'

lets see how long this post lasts..:puke

[Edited on 9-6-2003 by DakDat]

KruizinKombi wrote:I see no problem with the new rules, basically because I have no plans to break them. :thumb

I agree with KruizinKombi. I post how I live, and that is by respecting those around me.

I do censor my own posts. I think that if something that I'm posting could be taken the wrong way, I don't post it. It's as simple as that.

I'm also get the feeling that a minority is trying to spoil the forum for the majority because they can't get their own way. Accept the rules as necessary for the Forum's longevity and get on with the posting.

vanderaj wrote:However, there have been other legal threats in the last month or two (think of the 1916 threads), and I want examples like these and any future threats against us to stop, or at least be minimized to those where we actually have something to answer for.


Andrew

Is this why they have been removed / hidden?

Among other reasons, yes.

Andrew

That's much better Andrew.

For those of you who came in late, as each draft has been posted the one before was deleted. So a lot of the arguement may not make sense.
But believe me when I tell you the most misguided statement was, in my opinion- I have no plans to break them!! (sorry Col)

Draft 1&2 were that vague you would not have known til you got chastised over it.

An example is a post somewhere on the forum right now (I aint going looking for it) makes comment about rednecks with 5 top teeth.
Now the only other person on this forum that would know why I might find that offensive is Bronze......The Spook has 8 & a half top teeth. (no bullshit).
How easily could that have offended me if I didn't have a sense of humour.
But there's no way it would have been intentional.
There was a clause about posts being (among other things) knowingly hateful.
Was this comment knowingly hateful?
Well, seeing as it began with "what I hate is", that would be a big yes.
So a member is insulted & another member gone.
Intentional??
Because this person has never set eyes on me, of course it wasn't, but rules are rules, and they are broken.
Intentionally or otherwise.
How many people mean to get booked on the road??

#3 is is a marked improvement

The rules are clear, the penalty is clear & you've left some leeway for those of us who are, shall we say, more colourful than others.....😀

Offensive is the only broad based term left in it, as everyone has their own idea what is offensive. Still, I suppose we can't get by without it.

If that remains the final draft, then I can agree to it.

I never thought I'd say it, but, well done Andrew.
(and yes that DID fucking hurt...😉 )












[Edited on 10-6-2003 by Spook]

Oh my God! I need to go buy a Tatts ticket 🙂

The deadline of June 30 stands, so if there's more useful feedback for it to then, it'll be incorporated, but that's good news that we're nearly there.

I need to develop a few things to make the new agreement pop up on the date, but that's fairly easy compared to writing policy nearly everyone is happy with.

Andrew

GGAAARGH !

Andrew - can you change "sluts" to 5luts for me my stupid ISP filtering wont let me into this post anymore

fatboy,

maybe it's time for a new ISP?

Andrew

fatboy wrote:GGAAARGH !

Andrew - can you change "sluts" to 5luts for me my stupid ISP filtering wont let me into this post anymore

Isn't NetNanny supposed to be installed on your side of the modem? ;p (out of curiousity, what ISP do you use?)

Andrew, I like the newest draft. Looking good.

Perhaps I should clarify: I have no intention of breaking the rules, but if I do happen to break them, I am happy to accept the consequences as stipulated in the forum rules. 🙂

HEY I"M BACK IN.

I'm with TPG on an unlimited business ADSL plan.
When I signed up they were advertising it has having "web filtering of undesirable content" as a "feature" I assumed that as one of the owners of the company that I got to say what is undesireable. But no, they actually scan each page as I download it and block sites which contain naughty words, gaming sites (cant even check my Tatts ticket) and of course Nudi-sites.

Until the last 2 weeks there secutrity was crap so I could bypass it by using a free proxy server (In Thailand) at the expense of speed - but they have now caught on to this.

The good news is that I am moving house this weekend and although I plan to stay with TPG they now have a non-business plan ($20 less per month) that is not restricted so I will be going with that.
I have done some testing and as you can imagine when they aren't intercepting and filtering every page it is MUCH MUCH faster.

Rant over - thanks Andrew :thumb

i have been apeesed with some of the rule changes, but I think you may need to look at one of your clauses.


In a clause about posting pictures you say it cannot be posted unless you own the copyright to it, well what happens when I post a picture from another site for example vintagebus.com or from samba.com and ask for people's comments or show what someone has done to their VW is this then not in breach of the new rules and if it is then 90% of members are guilty of this offence

I just got an interesting bit of spam. Cash for my opinion. I could be rich.

I dont know eh, and here we all are just givin it away 😀

But they weren't stipulated Col & that's been my entire arguement for 3 of the 4 pages.

The indemnity for the forum was clear.
But rules on how we 'speak' to each other were questionable to say the least.

As I said 'harrassing' was way to broad, the only other word that has a wider meaning is 'IT', which CAN be used to descibe absolutely anything.
"Knowingly" was real thin ice.

Take my last example, I went looking for that post yesterday & it actually says morons not rednecks.
As I said to Jay last night, I know I'm no oil painting, & I have to laugh when I read it, because this girl could have no possible idea of how close to the mark she came.
But the point remains, had I been remotely self conscious about my teeth, that post would have fallen foul of the rules.

So you end up with the situation of some poor girl being asked to justify her spot on the forum for making a knowingly hateful remark about Spook, when her only reply could be "WHO?".

I couldn't accept that happening to someone else & I certainly wouldn't accept it happening to me.

I'll apologise in advance for my next statement, to the members in general, but in particular to those who I have had merry banter with here in the forum,the chat room, icq, messenger & on the phone.
Rest assured, should we meet you will be greeted as a friend should be.
A warm handshake from the right & a cold beer from the left.

But, the cold reality is, aside from the handfull of members I have physically met, the members of this forum are nothing but nicknames on a computer screen to me, as I am to you.
We have some minor insight into each others minds, but we don't really know each other.

The rules you would have accepted would have meant knowing where the line was drawn for each & every one of us.

They had to be changed & they have been.
Now I'm happy........😎

[Edited on 10-6-2003 by Spook]

The disclaimer/rules are clear here http://www.volkszone.com/ and I'm sure it would suit here as well.

It gives those that like a little naughty stuff with VWs to post those items, and because MODs have to supply a password before anyone can enter this part of the site then those under age cannot enter, and for those that Adult content is offensive you don't need to apply for a password. So everyone is covered.

Remember the K.I.S.S rule and that is all that is needed, not all of this POLITITCAL CORRECTNESS.

Michael,

I think if you look at:

http://www.volkszone.com/terms.shtml

It's actually far more restrictive than the current draft of the rules. Are you really proposing we ditch our rules for those?

Also, they're in England. We'd have to get the legalese translated to our state-based swamp of defamation laws. And yes, our defamation laws are far more draconian than the UK as they're using common law (from my understanding).

As for the nudity issue, it simply cannot exist here as it could get us terminated without notice. I'm absolutely not going to repeat that again, and it's not up for discussion. If you truly want that sort of stuff, head off to one of the many, many sites that cater for your visceral needs before coming back here to get your VW and community needs sorted.

Andrew

i think that with my limited knowledge and yet unlimited way of thinking i am happy to move on from this subject and accept the latest draft of rules.

simply cruizin'.
:kiss

opps, thought I typed www.aussieveedubbers.com not www.aussieveedubbersthatbitchaboutrules.com

<ahem>.. back to it.

LOL 😀:o😀 :P😉

C'mon green! Quit beating about the bush and tell us what you really think! 😉

Vanderjay

If you truly want that sort of stuff, head off to one of the many, many sites that cater for your visceral needs before coming back here to get your VW and community needs sorted

I never have posted any nudity nor propose to in this forum so don't assume

The last part of your reply to my post I thought offensive to me

YOU HAVE NOW BROKEN ONE OF YOUR OWN RULES.

this is the point that I believe spook was trying to make

Michael,

Insert lots of smileys 🙂 here...

Let's start with your avatar. It's got an unauthorized image of Calvin urinating on a Golf. Let's leave alone for a second the fact that you are dissing a great VW product (heresy!), but if you knew anything about Bill Watterson, Calvin's artist, you'd know that he'd never draw such a thing, and doesn't license any of his cartoons for merchandise, such as these awful stickers. It's known that he particularly hates those "Calvin pisses on..." stickers.

Read this:

http://members.tripod.com/~cabbresson/ch_licensing.htm

And you seemed to have missed my conditional "If you're truly interested in this stuff...". You post about the nudity issue a bit, so I sort of assumed you'd be in to it. But I didn't know, so I let it open for interpretation.

... Just pulling your chain. 🙂 Insert lots more smilies here. 🙂

Anyway, on a more serious note, I'm glad people are starting to get comfortable with the draft 3 rules. Keep the suggestions coming.

Andrew

ps. For "political correctness" substitute "polite". Why is everyone so down on being polite?

[Edited on 11-6-2003 by vanderaj]

Andrew ,
the australian legal system is based on the english system which is based on the adversarial processes (where 2 parties argue thier case) common law is just laws made by judges and the courts which includes precedents ..... whereas legislative law is parliamentary made law

the point of the shit dribbling . . . .english dont just use common law or thier parliament need not exist . . . ya get me?
:jesus:jesus


hmmm Legal studies . . . tho'd hav thought it would come in handy LOL

and those who know more feel free to correct me if im wrong

Adam,

we're both right and wrong. The English have indeed a far worse system of libel than we do, but it is indeed a common law tort. There is a defamation law (1952), but most of the case law surrounding English libel is where the problems creep in. It's very hard to win against a defamation allegation in England.

Andrew

But at least truth and proof are a defence in English law.

Not so in NSW.

Do you really want to see where truth & proof are never allowed to get in the way of a good yarn?

Go to the Family Court.......:puke

[Edited on 11-6-2003 by Spook]

I'm with those other - lets move on.

I like that handshake cold beer thingy Spook - Have to practice that again some time mate.

I'll bring around some more water bombs to keep the kids cool!

The avatar I have been using for quite some time & the idea was not to diss on a VW product, but to point out that vehicle is watercooled. The image didn't exactly show calvin urinating put I can see that you may have seen it that way. So to try and apees you I have changes the avatar

a couple of quotes from earlier.. sorry just read all five pages and realised i hadn't added to the melee yet.
vanderaj: "I think the current standard of "reasonable person" is someone who likes watching A Current Affair and thinks it is a fair and balanced journalistic bastion of integrity."

hahahahahaahhahaahahahahahahahahaahahaahahahahaahaahaahhahhhhaa *cough* hahahahahhhaahaha

great. now we're fucked.
😀

Vanderaj: "And plus their lawyers are usually conversant on what will and wont get it up in court. "

I may be taking this out of context, but you see what i mean..
😀
lawyers should spend more time on the case and less time perving and stroking (not that stroking is bad, it just may shorten your case life.. bwahahahah)

sorry about the current affair thing. these are my opinions, not those of anyone with anything to do with being liable for anything on aussieveedubbers.com...
in fact most 'current affair' type programs make me want to ram a crowbar thru the screen... have to get an insulated one.

".... And next, the [boy who sharpens axes and uses them to hack his limbs off while singing our theme song, or the unrepentant dole bludger, or the horse that has three legs but the owner loves him anyway, or some nutcase with a jumper over his/her head, or we get to the bottom of the washing detergent scandal again, or we find out how eating fat can be healthy for eskimos, or miracle water gives drying dolphin chance to swim again]... more after the break." (cheesy grin)

no offense to pizzahutvenboys for the cheese ref.

We back onto this again ?

Did I mention that there is only one VW in Tonga ? and it is a Red 71 Kombi that has seen many a better day.

The road rules over here are pretty simple stay on the left and don't hit anyone. Thsi approach works well and I haven't seen any accidents yet.

Why don't we just register the forum over here and then we can say what we want ?

Did ya sign him up to the forum??🙂

Where is he gonna plug in his computer?