on drive website news
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=60055&s_rid=smh:rainbowstrip:content1:9-01_greatestcars2
kroozzn63 ·
Aussieveedubbers · General Chit Chat
look what this wanker said
https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/threads/73953/look-what-this-wanker-said
bond ·
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/t/tatra87_VWE.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.autogallery.org.ru/ptatra.htm&usg=__WNIfosn-C8bdKzHji3TtcfTIPY4=&h=304&w=683&sz=55&hl=en&start=32&um=1&tbnid=E8vgE-r93S7FCM:&tbnh=62&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3DTatra%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
http://www.bohemiaevents.com/UserFiles/Image/tatra%20plan.JPG
http://www.bohemiaevents.com/UserFiles/Image/tatra%20plan.JPG
Phil74Camper ·
The Herald's Drive section can be annoyingly irrational sometimes. I think they have more credibility than the Tele's Cars Guide section, but sometimes they lose the plot. Why do this again?
Everyone has their own ideas about the 'Best Cars of All Time'. This was done to death in the early 1990s (when the Beetle was named Car of the Century), and again in 1999 when the Model T Ford was. Who cares? VW enthusiasts also love Type 3s, and they are never going to win any awards like this. It doesn't matter.
The only thing that does matter, is these journalists getting their facts right. The Beetle was NOT a 'straight lift' from the Tatra. Hans Ledwinka and Ferdinand Porsche were friends, and worked together a number of times for different firms, and worked on similar projects and similar ideas. Porsche made a number of early prototypes, from 1910 onwards, that had some concepts that were eventually used in the VW, as did Ledwinka with his designs. Ledwinka came up with the idea of a tube backbone chassis and independent suspension but his first designs were front-engined. Porsche preferred rear engines. He designed his first flat-four engine in 1909, as a Zeppelin engine!
The VW design was an evolution that went through many prototypes, through Mercedes, Zundapp, NSU and Tatra, and involved a number of design ideas. Karl Reimspiess designed the engine, for example, not Porsche, and Josef Kales designed the transaxle. Ledwinka went on to design some fabulous cars for Tatra, and these early machines are much sought after today. When the Nazis came to power, the big Tatras were very popular for high-ranking officer transport. Hitler did NOT ban them - what rubbish. Tatra trucks were used by the Wermacht, and Tatra cars and trucks were still made to Ledwinka's original design concepts into the 1980s.
And bringing up Hitler (re the VW) is the lazy, uneducated journalist habit. What happened to any references to Australian-made VWs, given the strange Australian slant on the story?
I'll say it again. The Corolla is NOT the most popular 'car' - only the most popular nameplate. The Corolla is currently on its tenth redesign and is NOT the same car as the first generation in 1966.
Then again, sometimes Drive gets it right. They voted the VW Golf the Best Performance Car Under $60,000.
http://blogs.drive.com.au/2008/11/best_performance_car_under_60k.html
Everyone has their own ideas about the 'Best Cars of All Time'. This was done to death in the early 1990s (when the Beetle was named Car of the Century), and again in 1999 when the Model T Ford was. Who cares? VW enthusiasts also love Type 3s, and they are never going to win any awards like this. It doesn't matter.
The only thing that does matter, is these journalists getting their facts right. The Beetle was NOT a 'straight lift' from the Tatra. Hans Ledwinka and Ferdinand Porsche were friends, and worked together a number of times for different firms, and worked on similar projects and similar ideas. Porsche made a number of early prototypes, from 1910 onwards, that had some concepts that were eventually used in the VW, as did Ledwinka with his designs. Ledwinka came up with the idea of a tube backbone chassis and independent suspension but his first designs were front-engined. Porsche preferred rear engines. He designed his first flat-four engine in 1909, as a Zeppelin engine!
The VW design was an evolution that went through many prototypes, through Mercedes, Zundapp, NSU and Tatra, and involved a number of design ideas. Karl Reimspiess designed the engine, for example, not Porsche, and Josef Kales designed the transaxle. Ledwinka went on to design some fabulous cars for Tatra, and these early machines are much sought after today. When the Nazis came to power, the big Tatras were very popular for high-ranking officer transport. Hitler did NOT ban them - what rubbish. Tatra trucks were used by the Wermacht, and Tatra cars and trucks were still made to Ledwinka's original design concepts into the 1980s.
And bringing up Hitler (re the VW) is the lazy, uneducated journalist habit. What happened to any references to Australian-made VWs, given the strange Australian slant on the story?
I'll say it again. The Corolla is NOT the most popular 'car' - only the most popular nameplate. The Corolla is currently on its tenth redesign and is NOT the same car as the first generation in 1966.
Then again, sometimes Drive gets it right. They voted the VW Golf the Best Performance Car Under $60,000.
http://blogs.drive.com.au/2008/11/best_performance_car_under_60k.html
donn ·
And the mini did not have a rubber suspension, as I recall it floats on fluid, tell me if my memory has let me down again. The Fiat topalino and the Fiat 500 were two different cars, though the Topalino did have a 500cc motor, it was front engine 4 cylinder, the 500 was not "also known as the Topalino"
68AutoBug ·
You Tell em Phil...
Do Journalists make up what they don't know??
maybe it was Fiction.... lol...
all of a sudden , everyone is an expert on VW & Beetles
LEE
Do Journalists make up what they don't know??
maybe it was Fiction.... lol...
all of a sudden , everyone is an expert on VW & Beetles
LEE
Phil74Camper wrote:The Herald's Drive section can be annoyingly irrational sometimes. I think they have more credibility than the Tele's Cars Guide section, but sometimes they lose the plot. Why do this again?
Everyone has their own ideas about the 'Best Cars of All Time'. This was done to death in the early 1990s (when the Beetle was named Car of the Century), and again in 1999 when the Model T Ford was. Who cares? VW enthusiasts also love Type 3s, and they are never going to win any awards like this. It doesn't matter.
The only thing that does matter, is these journalists getting their facts right. The Beetle was NOT a 'straight lift' from the Tatra. Hans Ledwinka and Ferdinand Porsche were friends, and worked together a number of times for different firms, and worked on similar projects and similar ideas. Porsche made a number of early prototypes, from 1910 onwards, that had some concepts that were eventually used in the VW, as did Ledwinka with his designs. Ledwinka came up with the idea of a tube backbone chassis and independent suspension but his first designs were front-engined. Porsche preferred rear engines. He designed his first flat-four engine in 1909, as a Zeppelin engine!
The VW design was an evolution that went through many prototypes, through Mercedes, Zundapp, NSU and Tatra, and involved a number of design ideas. Karl Reimspiess designed the engine, for example, not Porsche, and Josef Kales designed the transaxle. Ledwinka went on to design some fabulous cars for Tatra, and these early machines are much sought after today. When the Nazis came to power, the big Tatras were very popular for high-ranking officer transport. Hitler did NOT ban them - what rubbish. Tatra trucks were used by the Wermacht, and Tatra cars and trucks were still made to Ledwinka's original design concepts into the 1980s.
And bringing up Hitler (re the VW) is the lazy, uneducated journalist habit. What happened to any references to Australian-made VWs, given the strange Australian slant on the story?
I'll say it again. The Corolla is NOT the most popular 'car' - only the most popular nameplate. The Corolla is currently on its tenth redesign and is NOT the same car as the first generation in 1966.
Then again, sometimes Drive gets it right. They voted the VW Golf the Best Performance Car Under $60,000.
http://blogs.drive.com.au/2008/11/best_performance_car_under_60k.html
68AutoBug ·
The FIRST minis had a rubber cone suspension...donn wrote:And the mini did not have a rubber suspension, as I recall it floats on fluid, tell me if my memory has let me down again. The Fiat topalino and the Fiat 500 were two different cars, though the Topalino did have a 500cc motor, it was front engine 4 cylinder, the 500 was not "also known as the Topalino"
the Morris 850 MINI MINOR...
the hydrolastic suspension came along later and was also used on the Morris 1100 1500 and Austin 1800
Morris Wolsley Austin were all cars from BMC...
British Motor Corporation.
LEE
[they all used LUCAS electricals - YIKES -
and I think were Positive EARTH.. as were most British cars in the 50s]
donn ·
OK, I did ask to be informed, thanks (I think)
amazeer ·
If only volkswagen had called the the golf a beetle. They'd be miles in front of the corolla sales. And yeah, I can see where the beetle is a straight lift of a tatra. Practically Identical to a deaf blind man without arms and legs.
As for the praise of the magna, "The Magna was a Sigma sliced down the middle and widened to create the Australian Six ("Big Aussie Six") family car on the cheap" What diatribe! As good as they may have been in short term, they were barely Australian thing being a jap car with 6 or 8 inches added down the middle. Was it a sigma cut or a galant? perhaps the galant/sigma are the same. The 4 cylinder astron started blowing smoke about 3 weeks after it left the showroom, and doors rusted off them about 2 months after that. It wasnt too bad in acceleration but the easiest hot up mod came from removing the balance shafts that they used to try and dampen the vibrations. You wont find any TN/TM/TP magnas as barnfinds. Just piles of cheap looking plastic on piles of red rust dust.
I don’t think they competed well with commodore and especially falcon on size. I would have thought the natural enemy would have been the camira.. which perhaps not so coincidently it competed fairly evenly on build quality. They couldnt compete with any Big Aussie Sixes until about 1994 when it actually got a 6. Avoided like the plague by anyone with need of a towbar, it spun wheels really badly when one got light such as exiting driveways. It also understeered like... something that understeers incredibly badly. Only thing I have ever driven that understeers worse than a V6 TR/TS magna is a 4 cyl TR/TS magna. Cant really see why that was the case.
Should also mention that early Magna Owners tool kit should have included tube of superglue to put all the bits of plastic back on when they fall off. Apart from that, they are brilliant all Aussie designs. I think the 3rd generation TE onwards were a lot better but don’t have any first hand experience other than a couple of short test drives, but I think the badge cred was ruined by then, hence they are now called the 380.
As for the praise of the magna, "The Magna was a Sigma sliced down the middle and widened to create the Australian Six ("Big Aussie Six") family car on the cheap" What diatribe! As good as they may have been in short term, they were barely Australian thing being a jap car with 6 or 8 inches added down the middle. Was it a sigma cut or a galant? perhaps the galant/sigma are the same. The 4 cylinder astron started blowing smoke about 3 weeks after it left the showroom, and doors rusted off them about 2 months after that. It wasnt too bad in acceleration but the easiest hot up mod came from removing the balance shafts that they used to try and dampen the vibrations. You wont find any TN/TM/TP magnas as barnfinds. Just piles of cheap looking plastic on piles of red rust dust.
I don’t think they competed well with commodore and especially falcon on size. I would have thought the natural enemy would have been the camira.. which perhaps not so coincidently it competed fairly evenly on build quality. They couldnt compete with any Big Aussie Sixes until about 1994 when it actually got a 6. Avoided like the plague by anyone with need of a towbar, it spun wheels really badly when one got light such as exiting driveways. It also understeered like... something that understeers incredibly badly. Only thing I have ever driven that understeers worse than a V6 TR/TS magna is a 4 cyl TR/TS magna. Cant really see why that was the case.
Should also mention that early Magna Owners tool kit should have included tube of superglue to put all the bits of plastic back on when they fall off. Apart from that, they are brilliant all Aussie designs. I think the 3rd generation TE onwards were a lot better but don’t have any first hand experience other than a couple of short test drives, but I think the badge cred was ruined by then, hence they are now called the 380.
kroozzn63 ·
hmm thanks for the history lesson as i wasnt sure but when i googled tatra all i got was big euro army trucks and the banning thing /hitler looked like they where making shiat up 😬
VWCOOL ·
Harvey Grennan has been writing about cars, on and off, since before most of us were born. He's also worked in various gov't and manufacturer roles over the last four or five decades
LUFTMEISTER ·
Then he should know better!👍 ERRORS = ARSECLOWN😁
Phil74Camper ·
Google is good but VW history books are better. Buy or borrow books written by Jerry Sloniger, or Walter Henry Nelson, or Jonathon Wood. They detail Porsche's pre-1930 history very well. The Sloniger book is particularly good - you might find it on Ebay. There is a copy in the Club Veedub library you can borrow if you are a Club Veedub member.
Yes Chris, they could have called the Golf 'Beetle'. The Beetle was a Type '11', Cabrio was a '15' and the Golf Mk1 is a '17', so you could still call the Golf a 'VW Type 1' and not stretch the truth too far. Likewise, the Golf Mk2, Mk3, Mk4 and current Mk 5 are 'Type' 1G, 1H, 1J and 1K from their VIN codes, so they are also VW Type 1s. The New Beetle is a Golf Mk 4 too.
Lazy and ignorant journalists always mention Hitler and the Nazis when they do a story on the VW - haven't you noticed? Australia's VW factory history is never mentioned, because they DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT. All they know is 'Hitler', so it gets mentioned again and again and again. I have a dozen newspaper clippings of when the Beetle's production ended in Mexico in 2003 - they all mention Hitler. I have the Wheels magazine from March 1977 when the last Aussie Beetle was sold - it mentions Hitler. It DOESN'T mention the Clayton factory at all!
I wonder if these 'experienced' journalists actually know that Hitler's favourite car was Mercedes-Benz? Or that Mercedes made the engines for the Messerschmitt Bf109, and the Hindenburg zeppelin? Or that BMW made the engines for the Focke Wulf Fw190? That BMW's logo is a spinning aeroplane propeller? Or that Mitsubishi made the Zero fighter plane (maybe the best thing Mitsubishi have ever made?)
None of that is ever mentioned.
Yes Chris, they could have called the Golf 'Beetle'. The Beetle was a Type '11', Cabrio was a '15' and the Golf Mk1 is a '17', so you could still call the Golf a 'VW Type 1' and not stretch the truth too far. Likewise, the Golf Mk2, Mk3, Mk4 and current Mk 5 are 'Type' 1G, 1H, 1J and 1K from their VIN codes, so they are also VW Type 1s. The New Beetle is a Golf Mk 4 too.
Lazy and ignorant journalists always mention Hitler and the Nazis when they do a story on the VW - haven't you noticed? Australia's VW factory history is never mentioned, because they DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT. All they know is 'Hitler', so it gets mentioned again and again and again. I have a dozen newspaper clippings of when the Beetle's production ended in Mexico in 2003 - they all mention Hitler. I have the Wheels magazine from March 1977 when the last Aussie Beetle was sold - it mentions Hitler. It DOESN'T mention the Clayton factory at all!
I wonder if these 'experienced' journalists actually know that Hitler's favourite car was Mercedes-Benz? Or that Mercedes made the engines for the Messerschmitt Bf109, and the Hindenburg zeppelin? Or that BMW made the engines for the Focke Wulf Fw190? That BMW's logo is a spinning aeroplane propeller? Or that Mitsubishi made the Zero fighter plane (maybe the best thing Mitsubishi have ever made?)
None of that is ever mentioned.
VWCOOL ·
.. and that Ford Australia helped set up Daewoo's vehicle building operations with Cortina CKD packs, and that Hondas are 'hand-me-down' Samsungs in Korea, and that the Suzuki Swift/Cultus 4WD hatch was also sold as a Subaru... yes, Subaru!... Justy in some European markets... err, who cares?!
If it wasn't for Hitler the VW wouldn't have happened. That's why journos often/usually mention him when summarising VW history in a few hundred words or less
If it wasn't for Hitler the VW wouldn't have happened. That's why journos often/usually mention him when summarising VW history in a few hundred words or less
Fatso ·
Mind you it's a very nice beetle (and not a corolla) they've used for the main photo,
Phil74Camper ·
If it was't for Baron von Oertzen, or Lionel Spencer, Volkswagen in Australia wouldn't have happened. They never get a mention either. In fact I will bet that these 'expert' motoring journalists will have never heard of them.
Porsche had his 'people's car'designe well sorted long before Hitler came along, with ancestral designs for Zundapp, NSU and Tatra already built. Hitler only provided the funding to use Porsche's ideas on a larger scale, and at the end of the day, has no bearing on the VW story in 2008. The British, in restarting the factory in 1945 and keeping it going until 1948, has far more bearing on VW's subsequent history. In fact, if it weren't for the Brits, the VW factory would have been demolished after the war, today's VW company wouldn't exist, and the Beetle would be nothing more than a tiny footnote in history. That never gets a mention either.
Bringing up Hitler all the time in VW histories, short or otherwise, is short-sighted, cliched, and lazy.
Porsche had his 'people's car'designe well sorted long before Hitler came along, with ancestral designs for Zundapp, NSU and Tatra already built. Hitler only provided the funding to use Porsche's ideas on a larger scale, and at the end of the day, has no bearing on the VW story in 2008. The British, in restarting the factory in 1945 and keeping it going until 1948, has far more bearing on VW's subsequent history. In fact, if it weren't for the Brits, the VW factory would have been demolished after the war, today's VW company wouldn't exist, and the Beetle would be nothing more than a tiny footnote in history. That never gets a mention either.
Bringing up Hitler all the time in VW histories, short or otherwise, is short-sighted, cliched, and lazy.