Should I go Electric !

I have been looking for a while at the option of converting my 66 beetle to electric
I spoke to Mike from CBB about his conversion at the shootout and I really like the whole idea of being electric
so
Have you ridden in Mikes ?
would you do it?
Why shouldn't I

I mainly use the car for city travel
I believe there is a discount on the registration, and some city councils allow free parking at meters.....
I currently have 1776 with 110 cam and 36 dells

What do you think???????????

Sorry - what does CBB have??

Hi

Mikes cars is very interesting, I heard facts and figures that go in the face of eclectic cars.

From birth to death a Prius has the same carbon footprint as a Hummer. The battery manufacture uses toxic and rare chemicals.

A better idea is the air car from India, uses compressed air to drive a motor, still needs electricity to pump up the tanks but this could be done with greener power stations running when peak demand is off etc.

Steve

there have been people making their cars electric for many years...

they say its NOT too difficult...

cars should be cheaper with all electric too...

Give it a go...

cheers

LEE

1303Steve wrote:Hi

Mikes cars is very interesting, I heard facts and figures that go in the face of eclectic cars.

From birth to death a Prius has the same carbon footprint as a Hummer. The battery manufacture uses toxic and rare chemicals.

A better idea is the air car from India, uses compressed air to drive a motor, still needs electricity to pump up the tanks but this could be done with greener power stations running when peak demand is off etc.

Steve

How good are recycled batteries?????
I'll have to research the air car

I live in a town where there are two converted cars.

Daihatsu I think, very impressive especially the lightning bolt paint job.

His car was featured on TV and is very popular ... mind u it wasnt a vw so no comparison really.

This is the Bug that CBB did.... saw it at VW Warwick last year

1303Steve wrote:From birth to death a Prius has the same carbon footprint as a Hummer. The battery manufacture uses toxic and rare chemicals.

Steve

Where did you get this info from??

Can you PM me - could be handy at work to have this

the air car motor is a boxer engine too
looks good but a few years off
I wonder would they sell me an engine only???

Could you post the carbon footprint info here? I'd like to see how that was worked out - seems counter-intuitive that a 4 tonne 4WD has the same carbon footprint as the Prius.

Where do you think the electricity comes from in Australia? It comes from dirty coal fired power stations.

So electric cars are actually coal fired cars.

This paper debated the "hummer is better than a prius" statement;
https://www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Transportation/T07-01_DustToDust.pdf

Although it might have shown the prius is better, it seems plainly obvious to me that a fuel efficient car like a diesel VW Golf is going to be far far better than the Prius. And the golf doesn't burn coal.

What if I install enough solar panels on my house roof to produce the electricity needed to charge the car!

Then your car will probably take 1 week to charge if it's sunny, or you'll spend more on solar panels then you could ever hope to possibly save on fuel.

silver wrote:What if I install enough solar panels on my house roof to produce the electricity needed to charge the car!

They aren't cheap either!

What if its not about saving money ?

Well what is it about?

Hi

I guess we all want to make a softer impact on the earth, I think that's where Silver is coming from.

I reckon you buy a late model diesel motor from a Golf etc or now Subaru have a diesel flat 4, fit it up with all the wiz bang stuff from a late model car and your car will be more sensitive than an electric car.

But we all drive old cars, well any pollution that was made in my old cars manufacture is long past, from now on they only get greener.

Steve

Yuo can get much more effiecient batteries these dyas. Look up some of the electric car clubs in australis and pick their brains.

One guy told me once you can get down to as much as 2 batteries with a 15 year warranty on them. Not sure of price. very new technology battery wise.

electric cars more planet friendly?
a/ toxic chemicals and acids in batteries
b/ heavy metals and rare earth meterials (that take a sh*t load of mining and processing to manufactrue and are toxic when dumped)
c/ recharged from coal powered utilities
d/ limited driving range in a country that has 1000's of kms between capitals
Have not seen an electric only vehicle that matches or surpasses what we have (enviromentally or economically) if the so called Greenpowered experts can develop a realist way to capture the suns energy and store it then, maybe the electric car will then make sense, but until then its just BS science fiction at the moment.🥲
Justmy2c

Baja Wes wrote:Well what is it about?

Being Different..

DUBB61 wrote:electric cars more planet friendly?
a/ toxic chemicals and acids in batteries
b/ heavy metals and rare earth meterials (that take a sh*t load of mining and processing to manufactrue and are toxic when dumped)
c/ recharged from coal powered utilities
d/ limited driving range in a country that has 1000's of kms between capitals
Have not seen an electric only vehicle that matches or surpasses what we have (enviromentally or economically) if the so called Greenpowered experts can develop a realist way to capture the suns energy and store it then, maybe the electric car will then make sense, but until then its just BS science fiction at the moment.🥲
Justmy2c

A) most cars have Batteries.
B) Oil spills like the Exon Valdeez are worse than dumping batteries (which are recycled nowadays)
C) solar panels on roof of house for electricity supply
D) I don't require long range travel ( I'll take an Airplane for that)
Have you seen an electric car?
Change for your 2c

I appreciate all the comments on this, as I am seriously considering this conversion.

very cool topic people should have a open mind to all new ways of doing things because new ideas come from others mistakes and experiences!

Did you know that Ferdinand Porsche designed the world's first ever electric hybrid vehicle, the Lohner Porsche, in 1899?

http://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutporsche/porscheandenvironment/hybrid/lohner/

Volkswagen AG have not gone down the electric car path, as they consider that the cost, volume and weight of the batteries to be prohibitive, as well as the argument that electrics only move the pollution source from the engine to the coal-burning power station.

Instead, they are releasing ultra-efficient super-modern Bluemotion diesel models such as the Bluemotion version of the Polo, Golf, Passat and so on. The Polo Bluemotion is cheaper, faster, more economical and has a lower carbon footprint than the Toyota Prius. The Polo Bluemotion is the most economical and lowest CO2 5-seat car in the world:

http://www.netcarshow.com/volkswagen/2009-polo_bluemotion_concept/

Of course diesel is still a fossil fuel, so VW has long sold models in Europe and the USA that run on bio-diesel, supposedly a 100% renewable fuel. Australia doesn't have a bio-diesel infrastructure, unlike Europe and the USA, and VWGA does not support running Australian-spec diesel VWs on bio-diesel. But they supposedly can, even without modifications, but you will void your Australian warranty. We are a bit behind the rest of the world there.

...but diesel unfortunately does not magically appear in the petrol tank. Distribution is a considerable factor. Although power stations are fueled by dirty coal, the process is very efficient compared to the end to end supply of diesel.

VW experimented with an "Elektro Transporter", yes , an electric bay window, in 1978.

Obviously battery technology wasn't up to it then. Things are different now.

The "Tesla Roaster" makes an electric car look totally viable, even Top Gear could not convince me otherwise, they squeezed 55miles out of it on the track. Their concern was the recharge time, but you can just as easily imagine, swappable batteries.

I reckon it's a great idea - you sound like you are already convinced - so just get on with it.

I've looked at doing this for an Austin Healey Sprite, and found some of the following info which might be useful - but if someone has already done it for a VW, then they would be the first place to start.

All the hardware is now standard items from various places (eg Electro Auto and ZEVA ) so you can bolt the motor ( like this one) onto an adaptor (like the one listed in here), chuck in whatever batteries & controls etc you like and you have an electric car.

Next challenge is registration, but there is a code of practice which offers info.

I'm not exactly sure how you would provide windscreen demisting. Might be some way to tap off heat from the motor and duct it into the heater channels - and it may need some pressure differential to get flow.

yes and no, they also state that the batteries weight in at around 500kg, do you wanna change those??
i say its a good idea, but the batteries need work, or replacing with a hydrogen cell like in the new Honda.
if the batteries werent there the electric beetle would fly, i asked em about the electric beetle at warwick, was told it has 85kw, thats a hell of alot more than the average VW, pity about the battery wieght ruining that power to wieght ratio.
still a cool idea, the thing was sooooooo quiet ,other than the petrol generator charging the batteries non stop when not in use 🙂

Another alternative - convert your VW engine to steam power. You could run your water boiler on used cooking oil, and have a zero carbon footprint. It has been done - check out this Club Veedub article from a few years ago:

http://www.clubvw.org.au/ssssssteam_heat.htm

lots of good info here thanks Volumex for some links I had not seen before
Steam sounds like fun but I want electric

I was in at CBB on Monday discussing this very conversion with Mike.

I was given the once over of both the MX5 and the 74 Bay that he is finishing off at the moment electric powered.

All I am going to say is My bay is next.

After taking a hot lap around the block, I was sold on the effortless pick up, the total silence and smoothness of the beetle.

There are some very valid and interesting points in this post and everyone has their right to a view but for me my car already exist so I am not creating a carbon footprint going electric.

Why am I doing it, cause I can along with the following as pointed out to me by Mike at CBB.

I have no more serviceable items in the engine bay.

No more clutch or clutch cable issue ever again.

No more starter or alternator issues ever again.

No more rusting out of my exhuast ever again.

No more fuel tank or pump issues ever again.

Most of all no more oil leaks to stress out over come rego time.

Cost of running ie charging my batteries will be in the ball park of 2 - 3 cents per klm travelled.

As for emissions, what emissions, if you want to get all technical about the power I will be consuming out of my wall to charge my batteries lets thing about Mikes statement to me today," The amount of emissions that come out of one car just idling at the red traffic light each day on its journey would far out way the small amount of emissions produced by charging the batteries".

there is some info here on Porsche and air cooled VW electric conversions. http://www.electroauto.com/


One on an electric type 34 Ghia. Electric Razor 😎
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/G1page.html

whats the cost to benefit ratio?
insurance coverage?
engineering approval costs?
did Mike drive the beetle to warwick or haul it up with a dirty carbon producer?
battery warranty life?
These questions are all relevent, but if that is the road you want to travel, then good luck and post up details regularly.👍

what bout the gvm with the batteries in it?

Here's another place that does Volkswagen electric conversions:

http://www.e-volks.com/about.html

Yes I remember the VW Elektro Transporters (1975). The batteries were mounted on a slide-out platform mounted in the cargo area (van) or under-tray storage locker (pickup). The whole battery package could be slid out and removed for easy replacement. They were built as a fleet trial but the costs, weight (850kg) and range limitations brought about an end to the project. Still, nothing wrong with trying new things. VW also tried the engine 'stop-start' technology on the Eco-Golf, which could save 15-20% on fuel in normal driving and sometimes up to 60% in stop-start traffic, but they don't do that any more either. VW recently built a 'Twin Drive' Golf, petrol-electric, but not really a 'hybrid':

http://www.carcentral.com.au/200806271721/hybrid/electric/vw-enters-plug-in-hybrid-race-with-new-twin-drive-golf.html

Hi all Mike from CBB

The electric car we took to Warrick was on a car carrier along with 6 other of my customers cars, the reason is that it is simply not viable to drive any electric only car such a long distances.
It was built to drive to and from work a total distance on 22 klm along with short local commuting. Horses for courses.

After Andrew told me of this post yesterday I felt I should reply to some of the less than positive comments made here about electric vehicles in general and towards the green beetle we spent 4 years developing and getting RTA approval for.

The reason I decided to follow through with this and many more electric vehicles to come is my view on what can be done to lessen the impact I have on the environment for myself but more importantly for my 4 children and their children my grandchildren to come.

I believe that everyone should have at least one electric car in the family for the use of daily city style commuting of up to 180klm single commute without charging. The reason being is that 90% of our emissions come from short daily commuting to and from work. How many of you spend up to an hour sitting in traffic with the car idling away. Take a drive through any city tunnel and look at the plume of pollution that results from the vehicles passing through it then try to imagine the rest of the vehicles around doing the same. As for the comments that electricity comes from dirty coal plants I don't think anyone has really done their home work to see how little power is used in the charging of the batteries. That is a "lets jump on the bandwagon of negativity" argument. We should instead be putting pressure on the politicians for more greener supplies of electricity. How many of you could save power by shutting down your computer at night or turn of all unused lighting around the house. We all want 24hr hot water and heating/ cooling against the elements, so on, so on . Do you have gas heating and cooking hats of to those who do.

Are we going to replace petrol, diesel, lpg power cars ? No way. It just is not possible at present or even in the near future. Electric vehicles have there place along side oil based vehicles.

Batteries are a whole topic of their own. I decided after years of studying battery make up to use a sealed lead acid battery which contains no liquids. It is the Genesis battery designed for electric vehicles. It is completely safe, non hazards, maintenance free battery which is recyclable. They are reasonable priced and deliver quiet good performance. Yes there are exciting developments in battery technology with the lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries that are now more popular amongst the electric car associations. They are presently quite expensive and a relatively new to the market, but given time I feel they should prove themselves as a viable and hopefully more cost effective type of battery for electric vehicle. We have fitted 200amp hours of the Thunder Shy Lithium Ion battery to a 74 bay which should return around 180 - 200 klm, the same batteries in 160amp hours have produced 150klm with still more in the tank in a Toyota Camry. I ask all my customers to be brutally honest with me when they ask about electric conversions as to how far they want to drive the car on a single charge. This will either result in them being told an electric conversion is not for them, or ultimately decide the battery which would be required to make the conversion work for them.

To answer the question posted above about GVM which I think should actually be more a question about Tare weight. The electric conversion on the green beetle pictured in this post came in on the weight bridge 80kg over a standard beetle tare weight which when you think about it is one passenger. You need to take into consideration the fact that we have removed a whole engine and replaced it with a 48 kg motor, we have removed the starter, clutch and flywheel, petrol tank and fuel etc etc. We used a 14.9kg battery X 12 = 178.8kg. the battery pack is 42amp hours at 144 volts. It delivers 38klm drive on one charge which takes 2.75 hours to fully charge.

I am a little surprised at the negative comments from what I though very more intelligent members of this forum. In saying this I am not saying that you have to agree with my comment everyone has their own ideas it is just a shame when people don't think or base there comments on fact or reason. But I guess in a world that is skeptical of change and full of those that would rather argue for the sake of arguing rather than doing I should not be surprised.

My views are mine, I try to base them on actual events I have witness or tried myself. I only believe 50% of things I read in magazines or view through the media. I have to completely convince myself of the facts before I take them on. And Yes I can be wrong too.

I hope this helps clear up some of the miss informed information presented in this post. Please feel free to ask any other questions about electric vehicles and I will do my best to factually answer them for you. I am not an over night electric vehicle professional, I am still learning, resourcing and visiting new areas in this field, i think it is a real shame that more are not.

Looking forward to a exciting future.

Regards

Mike

Hi Mike I was hoping this post would prompt a reply from you
you may remember me from our brief discussion at the shootout (i was the good looking guy)
I think my next step in this is to come over for a visit and take a ride in your beetle.
I am interested in some performance figures from your beetle, and can we with either a bigger motor or more batteries make one really zoom if it doesn't already
This post has raised some negative comments,( which are appreciated as this was my intent with the topic) but they seem baseless and ill informed and have not really given any reasons for my not going ahead with this conversion
I think it will be cool
I think it will be fun
and it will certainly be different

I like different!!!!!!!

Silver

I was fortunate enough to be asked by Mike to drive his electric car to the "shootout" last Nov. It was parked at my business for a couple of days prior to the show and i was able to have a few drives around the local area. All our regular customers who i called in to see where very curious about it and where really blown away by the overall concept. Show day arrived and along with my brothers beetle and fathers Volksrod, we cruised from Ingleburn to The show. This meant a trip along the highway and let me tell you cruisin' at the speed limit was effortless. The car accelerates really well and has no trouble maintaining speed. Having fun, as you do, i gave her a little more pedal and managed to pull away.

Me being the bonehead i am sometimes, i forgot to charge the car the night before the show. We managed to get there on the day pushing the batteries limits. However, after charging her back up throughout the day getting home was a breeze.

Mike has installed a battery system with the range it has, as it suits his requirements. If i hadn't forgotten to charge it up we would have arrived no problems.

When i was driving the car it was fantastic, listening to the tyres on the road and wind in the window. I had an absolute ball driving it and would love to again anytime Mike needs a driver. I have driven a variety of VW's in the past, and have to say that was one of my most enjoyable experiences.

It must be pretty cool when you have to struggle with the wife about who gets to drive the electric car.

If you are seriously thinking about doing the conversion, arrange a time to see Mike,Go for a run in it (you will be surprised at how much pull it has), give him as much info as you can about what your intended uses are and desired range, so he can offer you the best suited battery and motor system.

Thanks for your reply notchy, it is great to hear feedback from someone who has driven one
I am getting tired of all the noise from the 1776, don't get me wrong it has great performance but this car is a city driver, sitting in traffic on a 40 degree day with the thump thump thump of the motor gets very tiresome. 1/2 of all my daily trip time is spent stationary
I am very serious about the conversion and I doubt I do more than 60 kms a day, on the weekends trips can be as low as 5 kms
having said that I would like to have optimum range and performance. the current range of 180klms is heaps
cheers Silver

silver,
i am interested in your 1776 how much you want for it???..send me a pm if interested

It will be going into my Splitty sorry mate

cbbvw wrote:the battery pack is 42amp hours at 144 volts. It delivers 38klm drive on one charge which takes 2.75 hours to fully charge.

Mike,

I am not being negative, I am being realistic. So from what you say above you have 44amp hours at 144 volts which is 6.048kWh. That is what the battery will deliver, it will take more to charge it as some energy is lost as heat during charging. But we'll say 6kWh to do 38km.

Coal fired power stations have emissions of about 1kg per kWh. So the carbon footprint of the 38km electric car drive is about 6kg.

The average 2008 model car carbon footprint is 158g/km which is 6kg for a 38km drive. So they are about the same.

A small efficient car like the VW bluemotion polo gets 99g/km, which is 3.7kg for the 38km.

My motorcycle that I ride to work is about the same as a bluemotion polo, so my Petrol burning motorcycle is better for the environment than the coal burning beetle.

I'm not being biased or negative, just looking at the facts. Let me know if I've misunderstood any of your numbers.

I noticed there was a complete absence of $ costs of this conversion. If there is to be a completely honest response to the questions then I think this needs to be provided for a fair and accurate cost to benefit decision to be made. Everyone highlights the cheap recharge costs but not the startup/maintenence costs. I do not consider these to be "negitive responses" but genuine questions that need to be answered in a trueful accurate manner. The easist way to cast dispersion on someone who does not see things the way you do is to class them as "negitive" or they have an "attitude". This requires no proof and casts them apart from the "true believers". All political groups start this way.
my2c

1303Steve wrote:From birth to death a Prius has the same carbon footprint as a Hummer. The battery manufacture uses toxic and rare chemicals.

And an existing car has a far far smaller "footprint."
Even is left on "dirty petrol".
The largest part of a cars so called footprint is the manufacture and exporting process.

Baja Wes wrote:Where do you think the electricity comes from in Australia? It comes from dirty coal fired power stations.

Not all, and as we move further into the future even less will come from this source.
This is why electric cars, even though they have been around in small number for around 100 years, are called emergent technology. They are a stepping stone and a starting place.

Did you know that one Google search uses more power (and more emissions) than a 30 mile drive in a car? How efficient is your time on the web?

Baja Wes wrote:Although it might have shown the prius is better, it seems plainly obvious to me that a fuel efficient car like a diesel VW Golf is going to be far far better than the Prius. And the golf doesn't burn coal.

The same studies that brought about that paper and others like it also show that an existing car, using its existing technology and fuels, over the next 30 years is far far better than even the Prius.

1303Steve wrote:But we all drive old cars, well any pollution that was made in my old cars manufacture is long past, from now on they only get greener.

Right on... that is the whole point of converting older cars. They are inherently "greener" because they already exist. Converting to lower polluting drive lines means they become even more "green" over the next stage of its use/life.

silver wrote:1/2 of all my daily trip time is spent stationary

And an electric car is expending no energy when it's stationary!

Baja Wes wrote:Coal fired power stations have emissions of about 1kg per kWh. So the carbon footprint of the 38km electric car drive is about 6kg.

The average 2008 model car carbon footprint is 158g/km which is 6kg for a 38km drive. So they are about the same.

So even ignoring the improved efficiencies that are being achieved and the even greater ones that are coming - you are, in fact, confirming that a converted old, existing car is more efficient over the next 10-30 years than a new modern car.

Baja Wes wrote:A small efficient car like the VW bluemotion polo gets 99g/km, which is 3.7kg for the 38km.

But the manufacture and export of said vehicle more than negates the difference. Thousands of litres of diesel are used just to move a ship the distance each of those cars travels in an average trip.

Baja Wes wrote:My motorcycle that I ride to work is about the same as a bluemotion polo, so my Petrol burning motorcycle is better for the environment than the coal burning beetle.

You are leaving out the oil you replace, the contaminants other than carbon emissions that come out of the tailpipe etc etc.

The point you are missing, apparently for sake of argument alone, is that electric conversions are not only reducing future output, they are recycling the bulk of an existing vehicle without the wasted energy of smelting to make new panels and components, the manufacture and export of a new vehicle.

The point of an electric conversion is to extend the working life on an existing vehicle, while reducing its output/impact on the environment and the best thing of all, making people aware that non internal combustion drive lines are viable.

"The point of an electric conversion is to extend the working life on an existing vehicle, while reducing its output/impact on the environment and the best thing of all, making people aware that non internal combustion drive lines are viable."

Good Point and the older the Beetle the more carbon credits you should have in your Green bank. But still there needs to be a REAL conversion cost supplied to make an informed decision to proceed.

I never said anything about the life cycle of an electrically converted existing beetle. All your points for an electric conversion could be applied to a biodiesel conversion.

My point has been that electric cars are by no means clean. Some people say electric cars are emissions free but they are wrong with the current electricity source.

DUBB61 wrote:I noticed there was a complete absence of $ costs of this conversion.

Thats because its not the issue here, its should "I" go electric not should you go electric
lets just say I can afford it.😂

I am not doing to be green
I want to do it because its fun

silver wrote:I want to do it because its fun

Mate, that's all the reason you need. If you think it will be fun, then go for it!

Baja Wes wrote:Some people say electric cars are emissions free but they are wrong with the current electricity source.

In terms of how cars are technically measured (there is an Australian standard for it) they are 100% emission free. So the claim by anyone with an electric vehicle is entirely accurate.

The whole "carbon footprint" argument is a diversion, and anyway, it is shown scientifically that a converted electric car is far superior to anything else on offer as a whole of life equation. For the person walking their dog beside the street, or the hippy riding his bike - tail pipe emissions are the beginning and end of their concerns.

Instead of trying to argue to the nth degree the total intricacies of whole life emissions, look objectively at the achievements of all the people who are doing or buying converted vehicles.

Each week they drive their "dirty coal powered" electric car (even though the balance of sources for power will be entirely different in 10 years time) they are putting less shit in the air directly. That's what is important to most of them.

And like silver has said. It's not all about being green.

Electric certainly has some merit, not just for the enviro reasons but the power (torque) reasons as well.Battery technology is advancing quite rapidly, which i hope will make this form of motivation a lot more viable!!

darren-h wrote:Electric certainly has some merit, not just for the enviro reasons but the power (torque) reasons as well.

The torque is amazing! It's hard to know until you drive one - the same power is there from 5rpm to 5000rpm.





I probably responded a little harshly above, but what people have to realise, instead of being holier and greener than thou, is that developing and perfecting vehicles now with electric drive is getting the cart in place for when the wheels are ready.

If people don't do it now, if they get rubbished and distracted before the big advances in "green" power generation then you are gonna have to wait a long time for the vehicles to be available to exploit those energy sources.

I can't see it as anything but shortsighted to argue about the (current) sources of electricity instead of participating in the development of getting things ready now...

I and others don't think electric cars are the answer. Neither does Honda apparently;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw

Although hydrogen fueled cars are not without their drawbacks either.

This is a very interesting thread. I have been thinking about sometime down the track converting the Type 34 to electric power. Seemed like a good thing to do to prolong its life. Lots of stuff written here has reinforced this thinking for me.
My only concern is battery life and disposal. They say that a Prius battery will need to be replaced after 5 to 10 years. Is that true?

Grey 57 wrote:They say that a Prius battery will need to be replaced after 5 to 10 years. Is that true?

I know someone that works for Toyota. Head office. They have only replaced a few batteries in the 16 years they have had the Prius in Australia. One recently in a car that has done over 300,000 ks.

I'll see if i can get the full figures from him again but I'm pretty sure there's only been 3 or so replacements.

I understand the Tesla Roadster uses several thousand Lithium-ion laptop batteries. I just hope they aren't the same ones that got recalled for catching fire, or the crap one in my HP notebook that is rooted after only 18months! 🙂

A few links you might find useful if you're looking for info on electric conversions:

11 second electric datto, massive page that takes ages to load but worth the wait if you're interested in building a quick electric vehicle www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php

lots of electric vw's www.evalbum.com/type/VOLK

electric vehicle discussion forum, i doubt there's a question about electric vehicles that hasn't been asked on this list www.evdl.org/archive/index.html

Cheers

Brett

silver wrote:I have been looking for a while at the option of converting my 66 beetle to electric
I spoke to Mike from CBB about his conversion at the shootout and I really like the whole idea of being electric
so
Have you ridden in Mikes ?
would you do it?
Why shouldn't I

I mainly use the car for city travel
I believe there is a discount on the registration, and some city councils allow free parking at meters.....
I currently have 1776 with 110 cam and 36 dells

What do you think???????????

Gday Silver,
I can give you my answers to two of your questions.

First, yes I have been in Mikes Beetle and I have also taken it out for a good 30 min cruise in and around Penrith.the car drives great with plenty of torque, very quick off the lights.I have had it on the freeway for a short distance and had no problem with speed it goes very very well.

Second,yes I think I would convert one of my early cars to electric,as I live and work local it would suit my needs.

I also see Mikes Beetle nearly every day of the week passing my shop or in the carpark of the shopping centre. it gets more attention then my wifes Golf ever would, its a great looking car that is well put together..

Ill keep out of who's footprints who's...

cheers Dean

Thanks dean
good feedback , I will be going for it I reckon
I cant wait for a drive in Mikes Beetle

I just finished reading the plasma boy link brett posted Wow That datsun is very quick.. electric drag cars hmmm?????

Baja Wes wrote:The average 2008 model car carbon footprint is 158g/km which is 6kg for a 38km drive. So they are about the same.

Where did you find that one?

I found this reference (page 39) from the Department of the Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts that shows in 2007 Australian cars had an average of 226 g/km in 2007.

Note that the average is usually the combined case, whereas a more equitable comparison may be to use urban only as converted electric cars would be predominately used for the daily commute.

If some or all of the electricity was derived from renewable sources then it would also effect the comparison.

As usual, statistics can be skewed to prove whatever you want (remember that Goodies episode where Graeme Garden said that 9 out of 10 doctors said that if you didn't [something] then an elephant would fall on your head)

If you were going to do (or rubbish someone who was considering) a conversion based solely on hard numbers, then you could find sufficient research to support whichever side of the fence you want to sit. This sort of conversion isn't about numbers, it is about a lifestyle choice based on minimising your personal carbon footprint. I applaud those with the courage, drive, tenacity and money to take this step. I believe that in the future they will be able to sleep soundly knowing that they did all they could to minimize the climate problems that we are going to face in 25/50/100 years time.

Silver Been watching this thread and keeping quiet as not got any advice to provide anyway. But it has turned into a great thread with lots of great points! You better go ahead with this and keep us all informed step by step. I may even do the same to my bug at the finish.

I do not know how the rich guy driving around smuggly in his little forklift car could sleep soundly when the underlying carbon footprint problem is overpopulation. I do not see anyone suggesting that we should curb breeding as a long term solution to the eviromental problems. even if Australia went to zero emissions tomorrow it would be like turning off a fan in a hurricane. Ask any scienctist what happens to a species when its numbers starts affecting its enviroment. remember Easter Island. sleep soundly people

DUBB61 wrote:I do not know how the rich guy driving around smuggly in his little forklift car could sleep soundly when the underlying carbon footprint problem is overpopulation. I do not see anyone suggesting that we should curb breeding as a long term solution to the eviromental problems. even if Australia went to zero emissions tomorrow it would be like turning off a fan in a hurricane. Ask any scienctist what happens to a species when its numbers starts affecting its enviroment. remember Easter Island. sleep soundly people

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volumex wrote:Where did you find that one?

http://www.seecon.org.uk/2009-ppt-pdfs/seec-Green-Car-Guide.pdf

If some or all of the electricity was derived from renewable sources then it would also effect the comparison.

Yes.

This sort of conversion isn't about numbers, it is about a lifestyle choice based on minimising your personal carbon footprint. I applaud those with the courage, drive, tenacity and money to take this step. I believe that in the future they will be able to sleep soundly knowing that they did all they could to minimize the climate problems that we are going to face in 25/50/100 years time.

If you really wanted to minimise your footprint you'd ride a push bike, not buy a bug TV, not sit at your computer on the internet, use only fluro light bulbs... There are heaps of things that will be more benefitical than an electric conversion. If everyone in Australia started driving electric cars then we would just have a major electricity shortage problem, something we already get at peak load in summer when people use air conditioning.

If you want to do the conversion for fun then that's fine, but you can't tell me your saving the environment, because currently your not really. A guy at my work is trying to make an electric car and recharge it from a wind mill that he is converting into a wind generator. When he is done then he can tell people how he's saving the environment.

I replaced every light in my house with a fluro light, and that probably does more for saving the environment than driving an electric car will. Just like you pro electric car people have an opinion, you need to let other people have their own opinions too. You can take or leave the info I give, I don't consider myself biased.

Hi

This is a great thread.

Concerning hydrogen powered cars, what I haven't been able to find out is, is hydrogen replaced in the atmosphere or once we burn it is it gone forever, so that in the future hydrogen will become a scarce resource like dinosaur oil.

Steve

If I wanted to install a V12 in my car I doubt anyone would have mentioned the carbon debate
this is an engine conversion discussion! The Carbon thing is not a factor in my thought process (even if it should be)
I am fairly green without trying though
my tv is an LCD
I don't have an Airconditioner
I don't have a wood fireplace
and I think I'll stop eating baked beans! that will help the environment too! I wonder how much methane is produced per litre of milk? it is an endless debate..
I can't save the planet
I could keep the 1776 shove a hose up my bum and hook it up to the dellortos, problem solved


smoking pot adds Carbon to the atmosphere too you know!

Silver, what are you estimating the cost of the conversion to be? I looked into this and the costs were pretty similar over a 5 year period to running electric versus petrol but that all depends on good battery life and regular battery conditioning. If you going to get a controller have a look at the Zilla series. Its what that Datto probably uses, and is the next generation on from Curtis controllers.

Not sure if its been posted here before but these guys are worth getting in touch with:- http://www.aeva.asn.au/ and they have a Sydney branch too.

Last time I priced this up it was looking between $10k to $15k to convert your existing car. I'm not sure what you'd have to do to get it registered as well, presumable engineering compliance etc.

Go for it, I think you'll never look back.

Cheers

Steve

DUBB61 wrote:I do not know how the rich guy driving around smuggly in his little forklift car could sleep soundly when the underlying carbon footprint problem is overpopulation. I do not see anyone suggesting that we should curb breeding as a long term solution to the eviromental problems. even if Australia went to zero emissions tomorrow it would be like turning off a fan in a hurricane. Ask any scienctist what happens to a species when its numbers starts affecting its enviroment. remember Easter Island. sleep soundly people

better stop having sex then as well mate. that's the only way to garrantee no babies. can't see that happening either. the internet would dissappear as the need for p0rn industry that drives it would dry up overnight....the organizied crime heavies wouldn't be happy about that. can you imagine some big biker holding a gun to your head and telling you, "go home and have sex or your girlfriend gets it". 😂

BTW, I love the idea of electric, but I'm with others on the battery issue. also, the real user of power is weight. if your are serious about making the car go long distances, get out you hole saw and start cutting. anything left in tact or that has to be there should be made out of plastic or carbon fibre.

1303Steve wrote:Hi

This is a great thread.

Concerning hydrogen powered cars, what I haven't been able to find out is, is hydrogen replaced in the atmosphere or once we burn it is it gone forever, so that in the future hydrogen will become a scarce resource like dinosaur oil.

Steve

Steve,

The hydrogen isn't burned, it is just allowed to reform water. It's basically an electric car with the electricity made from H2, which is like the battery.

So the question is where does the hydrogen come from? Well usually water. To make H2 from H2O takes a fair bit of electricity by traditional methods, but you can allow the same arguements that you could do it with Solar or Wind electricity.

But the process is getting more efficient. There are catalysts that help. There are alternative methods being investigated such as producing H2 from water using aluminium clusters. H2 is a byproduct of desalination plants (we are getting more and more of these in Australia). Honda have the HES IV home H2 generator which uses natural gas to make the H2 and electricity / heating for your home.

What they should do is make container ships electric

Not many power points to recharge in the ocean though...

There is plenty of wind and sun though and it might save an oil spill, that just leaves
the dirty petrol bajas to drip oil on the beach

this should spark some interest,
on the news tonight they say electricity is going up 20%.. mmmmmmmmm fact

Electricity up
Time to buy a Canyonero!

silver wrote:that just leaves the dirty petrol bajas to drip oil on the beach

Mine doesn't have a VW engine, so it doesn't drip oil 😂

silver wrote:I don't have a wood fireplace

That smoke you will see in a month or so is from my place.

Baja Wes wrote:

1303Steve wrote:Hi

This is a great thread.

Concerning hydrogen powered cars, what I haven't been able to find out is, is hydrogen replaced in the atmosphere or once we burn it is it gone forever, so that in the future hydrogen will become a scarce resource like dinosaur oil.

Steve

Steve,

The hydrogen isn't burned, it is just allowed to reform water. It's basically an electric car with the electricity made from H2, which is like the battery.

So the question is where does the hydrogen come from? Well usually water. To make H2 from H2O takes a fair bit of electricity by traditional methods, but you can allow the same arguements that you could do it with Solar or Wind electricity.

But the process is getting more efficient. There are catalysts that help. There are alternative methods being investigated such as producing H2 from water using aluminium clusters. H2 is a byproduct of desalination plants (we are getting more and more of these in Australia). Honda have the HES IV home H2 generator which uses natural gas to make the H2 and electricity / heating for your home.

Thanks Wes, its good to have boffin on hand

Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe so we'll never run out of it! It's the simplest element in chemistry - just one proton and one electron.

When you burn something, you basically add oxygen and the process releases energy that can be used. For example, you burn methane (CH4) by adding two lots of oxygen (2O2), and you end up with carbon dioxide (CO2) plus two lots of water (2H2O), plus heat. It works backwards too - you could start with water and CO2, and rearrange them to recreate methane. But you would need to ADD energy - in fact the same amount of energy that would have been released by burning methane. You never get something for nothing in science.

Water is basically burned hydrogen, which exists as a diatomic gas (H2). You use two lots of hydrogen (2H2), add oxygen (O2) and you get lots of heat and two lots of water (2H2O) as a by-product. Burning hydrogen releases more energy per mass than any other chemical reaction - that's why the space shuttle's main engines use hydrogen as a fuel. The trouble is that it is very hard to store - you can't just put hydrogen in a tank, like petrol.

You can compress it into a cylinder, like you do with acetylene or natural gas, but remember hydrogen is small and light. It leaks out very quickly, no matter how well you make the seals (the hydrogen molecules slip through the seals, and even through the metal tank walls). Or, you could liquify it in a cylinder like you do with LPG or propane, but hydrogen has a very low boiling point, even under high pressure. It won't stay liquid unless you use expensive refrigeration to keep the tank at, say, minus 200 degrees or more. You have to use 'cryogenic' tank storage - too big, heavy and complicated for cars.

The third alternative is the one used in hydrogen test cars, which stores hydrogen as a chemical mixture with other elements, usually a metal hydride. The hydrogen is released when you add another chemical - a catalyst - to release the hydrogen. But this method is not very volume efficient - you don't get to store as much hydrogen per tank volume as you would with leaky or supercold cylinders. It's the hydrogen storage that is the problem.

Hydrogen can be burned in a normal (modified) piston engine, or more efficiently in a 'fuel cell' which creates electricity directly from the hydrogen burning process. The Apollo command module used hydrogen fuel cells to create electricity, and water as a byproduct for the astronauts. Volkswagen is working on more modern 'high temperature' fuel cells for auto use. http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage6337.html

Hydrogen is easily created simply by splitting water back into hydrogen and oxygen. But of course you need to ADD energy to do so - the same energy you would have got from burning hydrogen in the first place. But you could adapt wind or solar power to split water on a large scale.

Yes, there are two ways to use Hydrogen.
1 - burn it in a slightly modified internal combustion engine.
2 - use it in a fuel cell which is basically letting chemical reactions create electricity.

I was talking about number 2 as it is where the future of hydrogen powered cars will be. Option 1 kinda misses the point and I don't think it will take off.

As I said there are currently a lot of ways to make the hydrogen being investigated. I like the aluminium cluster one the most at the moment;
http://thefutureofthings.com/news/6541/hydrogen-produced-from-aluminum-and-water.html

There's still quite a few hurdles to overcome, but I think it is looking promising.

How big would the solar panels need to be to charge the battery pack up on the CCB Electric Beetle??? Charging over say a 8 hour period. The lenght of an average work day for a car parked out in the open. Realise that there would be variables like weather etc. But assume 8 hours of sunshine.

If my guess of 6kWh of battery power is right, then you probably would need close to a 1kW solar panel set-up. You'd be looking at about $10,000 of panels for that I reckon.

Hi good to see some good questions and answers .
I Just checked the specification on some solar panels
and discovered I could put 4 x 200 Kw solar panels on the roof of my splitty container van these thats 800w of solar for an constant charging system
if say I converted the splitty to electric too , panels measurements are each 1300mm x 800mm
I know I couldn't drive 24 hours with it but I wonder how efficient would it be?
the total cost of electric conversion and panels would be about 20K
cost aside would it work

kombivw wrote:Silver Been watching this thread and keeping quiet as not got any advice to provide anyway. But it has turned into a great thread with lots of great points! You better go ahead with this and keep us all informed step by step. I may even do the same to my bug at the finish.

go and check the working one at CBB in penrith
you are close so its easy
I would have already been there but its a special trip as I dont live close

How far are they away from penrith airport anyway😂

I have lived on two solar powered boats that I had set up, the first was 600W and the second 800W. With the 800W system the best I ever saw was nearly 40A of charging current. To get this the panels need to be perpendicular to the sunlight and cool. Mounting and location is very important, for best performance they require an air gap under for cooling and ANY shadow greatly decreases their output, to the extent of a shadow from an arial 6mm in diameter on only one panel would reduce the output significantly. But park in full sun on say a cold windy summers day with an 800W system and you would be very lucky to see about 200 a/hrs max.

This report was on ABC TV's Stateline program on Friday night, with Quentin Dempster. It talks about the possibility of government subsidies for rooftop solar panels to feed power back into the grid. They refer to an average 8 kW solar system to feed back 35 kW-hours per day. Cost = $95,000 before rebates.

http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/nsw/content/2006/s2516167.htm

This has been interesting, to say the least, Like your work silver. You know I think that apart from the fun side of doing this, how much money are you going to save from not pupmping gas at over a $1.00 per ltr, little service and repair cost. How much do spend on average each week for fuel. How much would you spend on a new car and then pay it off over 5 years.

Then environment is one thing but if your going to save a $100.00 bucks a week on fuel, that awsome.

Oh and Wess your a wanker, you totaly miss the point.

out of curiosity how much does the CBB conversion cost?

Also any performance figures ie horepower?

0 - 100?

Electric Mini in Bathurst:

"Will spin the tires in 5th gear taking off. For footage go to ....."

http://www.evalbum.com/2407

LOWBUG wrote:Oh and Wess your a wanker, you totaly miss the point.

Your entitled to your own opinion. But from your post your not very open minded. I have merely presented the facts. I have told Silver to go for it. I have also presented a fair comparison of petrol and electric.

It's going to take ages to pay off. If you are spending $100/week on fuel then an electric vehicle probably isn't going to have the range you require.

LOWBUG wrote:Oh and Wess your a wanker, you totaly miss the point.

That's a bit harsh. There are two sides to this story, and Wes is certainly entitled to his opinion, which he has supported with hard data. A poorly executed electric conversion operating long term will more than likely result in higher overall carbon emissions than the new you-beaut diesel Polo.

At this stage of the game there is no moral high ground, we are just going to have to wait until the facts determine who is right - and even then it will probably be open to interpretation 😂

In the meantime, I'll just keep my carbon footprint as light as I can without going overboard.

XXX-1.8T wrote:out of curiosity how much does the CBB conversion cost?

Thats the question everyone wants to know, but is so large that it would weaken the cost to benefit argument on thier side so it is a secret SSSSSSSSShhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Calling someone a wanker is always a good strategy when the facts do not add up. 🤪

Notice how people use the FUN tag when it is not logical to do something. "yeah we thought it would be FUN to to superglue his hand to his forehead"
Good luck with the conversion. Fun Fun Fun

Did any of you ever considered that all that carbon emition stories are full of bull ...?

DUBB61 wrote:Thats the question everyone wants to know, but is so large that it would weaken the cost to benefit argument on thier side so it is a secret SSSSSSSSShhhhhhhhhhhhh!

It's all a conspiracy by the electricity companies!!!! They should leave us poor oil burners alone.

If you had read my post on page 2 and followed the link you would know the answer.

Here it is again if you can't find it: http://www.electroauto.com/index.html and http://www.zeva.com.au/index.php

and the direct link to the cost pages: http://www.electroauto.com/info/cost.shtml for US$ and wade around here https://www.zeva.com.au/trading_post.php for AUS$

They only bit missing is the labour component in AUS$, but that shouldn't be too hard to convert from the US$ page.

cb john wrote:Did any of you ever considered that all that carbon emition stories are full of bull ...?

Depends which side of the fence you are sitting on. Are you saying that carbon dioxide emissions are higher or lower than reported in the media?

(Are you an engineer by any chance?, your grammar & spelling seems to suggest it.)

Actually I am a wog boy, trying hard to blend in ...as far as carbon dioxide emissions go, it is a convenient subject to push on population...not too many know much about reality of biochemistry....F**k the media...and by original education I'm a Vet...

Don't u all get it you crazy people all you!

Time to build ur huts and go back into your roots...
Stab some fishes, make a fire and dance to some bongo drums...
🤓

Every possible renewable energy source is somehow derived from the sun. Whether it be from the fossils in oil, the wood we burn, even the wind that blows.... But the sun is weak! It took billions of yrs to setup what we can use for energy on this earth. The amount of energy the human race consumes overall is not renewable.

ie: we bite off more than we can chew.... then...oh shiz! My bowls empty... no more! oy wtf bro!?!? Then what? One can only imagine...

A person thinks of a green option, and there is always someone who has to bitch about it.... Oh that Dam is certainly stuffin up that water system... Oh that Wind generator is making too much noise... oh !! oh oh!! By the end it sounds like a flippin orgasm...

Human race is rooted. Live life to the full with as little impact and cost on others... and just bite the bullet. The human race with eventually cycle around through the process of its existance and when it does we will make do. Its like what someone else mentioned heaps earlier about the ways of a natural eco-system. If u got lots of a resource for a species, it thrives... till it thrives too much and demand exceeds supply and in turn, it starves them of that resource, and the species shinks... and eventually balances....

Just another angle to view the unknown..

Thats all it is though, no one knows...

The only fear is possibilities... Live life now rather than the future... within bounds of not being ignorant of your actions of the present.

the electric car is cool , but i like the twin blowers idea better ..

If I had said "should I buy a Porsche" I doubt if anyone would have considered or mentioned how cost effective that 300k car will be
A Gallardo at 500k cost effective I think not

So Get it into your head that cost effective is not always a consideration.
I am eccentric get it!
I made the effort to get an estimate from Mike at CBB, feel free he is a business and a forum sponsor
and as cost was not the issue, I had not included it in any posts that sought opinions.
I am appreciative of the costs opinions I have received, as they have all had fair argument
I vaguely remember a story That Neil Young spent some 500k to make an electric car
Why because he wanted to
maybe if more people wanted this conversion the technology would improve faster, and become, what some would approve of.
There has been recent reports of new batteries that can be charged at an incredible rate a car in 5 mins (time for a coffee)
see link http://www.gizmag.com/go/5228/

they might be available for my first batteries change around 50,000 ks 4 years

Wes seems intelligent maybe a little objective but he might be stoned he he he (but Wankers a bit rough) this post need not become a 1916 style thread

I can see a day when there will be charging points at the Nationals

Koenigsegg unveiled an electric car the 'Quant' at the Geneva motor show a few weeks ago. The paint on the car is actually a photovoltaic cell, so its good for a range of 500kms, takes 20 mins to charge and can to 0-100 in under 6 seconds with a top speed of 270kmh

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-10187302-48.html

Its happening!!!

Cheers

Steve

The weak link in the of the whole electric car system is the fact that the cheap recharge they highlight in thier argument is backed up by Billions of dollars of infastructure investment. The current grid cannot even handle a hot summers day if everyone turns on thier air conditioners let alone adding inefficent forklift cars to the system. Whos going to pay for the upgrade? The people who want to have FUN or the poor Joe public who cannot afford to have FUN? Until they can really capture solar or wind effectively to totally power these units with out having to tap into coal generated power it is as I stated "BS Green science fiction." Now lets talk about nuclear powered cars😵‍💫

DUBB61 wrote:Whos going to pay for the upgrade? The people who want to have FUN or the poor Joe public who cannot afford to have FUN?

Why not! They have paid for everything else haven't they

Silver I like your forward thinking - in 10 years time plugging our electric VWs into recharge points at the VW Nationals. Hmm, Fairfield Showgrounds would have to modernise a bit by then - at the moment they won't even subsidise an ATM.

Ah nuclear powered cars. It's already been thought of - the Ford Nucleon concept from the 1950s. See http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=3359

Can someone arrange for the electric VW to go on display at the Nationals in May? That way we can all have a good look at it and maybe see it in action.

As long as drivers keep crashing into each other, I think nuclear cars may have some safety issues to sort out. 🙂

what better point. you would drive A LOT Safer if you were incharge of a nuclear explosion 👍

unless your a suicidal kamakazee driver... howeva its spelt...

terrorism would be a piece of pie!

Positive posts = NSW /VIC
Negative posts = QLD

Curious???????????????

cbbvw wrote:My views are mine, I try to base them on actual events I have witness or tried myself. I only believe 50% of things I read in magazines or view through the media. I have to completely convince myself of the facts before I take them on.

I feel the need to re visit some of the incorrect statements already made in this post, in particular those made to the actual figures I have given.

The electric car we built and drive daily to and from work uses 42 amp hour sealed lead acid batteries or commonly called maintenance free batteries. We run 12 of them wired in series which makes the battery pack 144 volts. 42 amps multiplied by the 144 volts gives you 6048 watts of power. This is easier said as 6.048kwh. For this we travel 35 - 38klm on a single charge.

Using a locally bought meter that measures kwh consumption, amps, volts, watts etc etc I can tell you the car over a 2.75 hour charge time draws 0.3kwh out of the wall.

So what if it only draws 0.3kwh from the wall. The thing is that all the argument stated on this post about the carbon foot print , pollution etc, about the electric car verses the petrol, diesel car are totally incorrect.

Further more the comment about the solar panels not being feasible in regards to charge the car, sorry but again also incorrect. My small (and I use the term small in the grand scheme of things, as there are much larger units available), 1kw solar panel unit at home mounted to the roof produces on average 5kwh of power per day, 7 days a week 365 days a year. Before you all jump up and down and say but there are cloudy days during the year therefore it can not work 365 days a year. This is why I said the average my unit can produce is 5kwh. My unit can produce more on really good days as high as 7.6kwh.

I have an open invitation for anyone to come to our work shop during business hours to test drive our electric car. Meter readings during testing can be view to validate the information and statements made by us in this post. Facts are facts when they are proven, not just because some one quotes them in a post.

I believe that I can make the statement that my electric powered car is smooth and quiet to drive, very reliable and cheap to run, more than adequately powered, because I have a daily driven electric car and I have personally performed the testing outlined above whilst in the presence of those much more electrically qualified then myself.

Emissions, as I have explained and outlined above there are no extra emissions caused through charging of the car when done at my house. Tail pipe emissions are zero.

What ever your reason for being against converting to electric powered vehicles may be the argument that many have so willingly taken and accepted as gospel in this post, especially regarding the electrical impact and emissions generated per klm travel are simply not a valid one.

I acknowledge that electric powered cars have limited range at present and are costly to initially convert.

For those who are interested I can tell you that the solar panel conversion at home cost me $2975.00 after rebates. Given my yearly average consumption figures, this will take me 3 years to re coupe the cost of the instalation.

My electric car taking into consideration all the associated running costs will take approximately 3 - 4 years to re coupe the costs of the conversion.

I am not narrow minded.

I know there are many exciting developments in alternative fuel/ power sources currently being developed.

I believe we need to start some where, we need to invest some money at some point to start the count down clock to savings both financial and environmentally and I feel that electric conversions to existing vehicles is definitely one worth looking at.

Regards

Mike at CBB

So asking legitimate questions is a negative? Hmm so everything you say is correct/positive? Then there is no need for you to ask "should I go electric?" because everything you say is correct and every other opinion is negative. Thank god the planet is in your safe hands and you can whirr around in your forklift car and wave to the carbon burners safe in the knowledge the the barrier reef and the arctic ice caps are now safe. Cheers to you benevolent overlord of this rock that is earth. I shall sleep soundly tonight. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz😉

Fact is total output of greenhouse gases that Australia contributes is 1.5%. So you can visualise what would happen if Australia went to zero output tomorrow(throwing everyone out of a job). We would reduce a 200kmh (climate change) storm to 197kmh.

Has anyone here yet to consider buying a horse?

😎

but anyways, you just wanted to convert to electric for the novalty more than anything? I just got that feeling. Is that right?

Go for it brudda. 👍

There will always be 2 or more sides/opinions to the argument. Its just life, can't change it.

bajachris88 wrote:As anyone here yet to consider buying a horse?

😎

do they come in black? 😵

Horses? sorry but no good methane producers. The difference between a Horse and a solar powered car expert is you know which end the sh*t comes out of with a Horse.😁

Hi Mike,

I love your work and think your car is cool. But I just have to query your numbers as they don't make sense.

cbbvw wrote:The electric car we built and drive daily to and from work uses 42 amp hour sealed lead acid batteries or commonly called maintenance free batteries. We run 12 of them wired in series which makes the battery pack 144 volts. 42 amps multiplied by the 144 volts gives you 6048 watts of power. This is easier said as 6.048kwh. For this we travel 35 - 38klm on a single charge.

So earlier when I said "you have 44amp hours at 144 volts which is 6.048kWh" I was correct.

Using a locally bought meter that measures kwh consumption, amps, volts, watts etc etc I can tell you the car over a 2.75 hour charge time draws 0.3kwh out of the wall.

This is where it starts to get confusing. If the meter read 0.3kWh then that is what was used total over the 2.75 hours. Or was the 0.3kWhrs meant to be 0.3kW, in which case you'd have 2.75hrs x 0.3kW = 0.825kWh. Either way, that is far less than the 6kWh the car uses to move. If it's true then you could use 1kWh of the cars power to turn a generator to charge the battery and the other 5kWh to drive, giving you something even better than a perpetual motion machine. On this forum, we obey the laws of thermodynamics 😂

1kwh solar panel unit at home mounted to the roof produces on average 5kwh of power 7 days a week 365 days a year. Before you all jump up and down and say but there are cloudy days during the year therefore it can not work 365 days a year. This is why I said the average my unit can produce is 5kwh. My unit can produce more on really good days as high as 7.6kwh.

I think you mean a 1kW solar panel (no hours). A 1kW solar panel set-up going for 10 hours of sunlight could give you as high as 7.6kWh of power. That all agree's with what I said, and shows you would need a 1kW solar set-up running all day to charge the 6kWh car (like I said earlier).

Hi Wes.

Thanks for the positive comments on our work and the electric car.

As you, I have a little trouble converting the information regarding the kwh measurement of power consumption. As i said my knowledge of electrical power is limited so I rely on meters and qualified 240volt electricians to help with my research and development in Ev's.

I believe that what is happening here is the loss in translation between AC power and DC power and probably more important the difference between stored power ie in the 144v battery pack and grid power, that being from the 240v power outlet on the wall.

As your questions to me is valid and constructive in the argument of power usage of an Ev and not just side line dribble as expressed above by others, I will try my best to give you an answer in the next few days that supports my findings.

Regards

Mike

Ok, thanks. The 6kWh seems about right for an electric vehicle.

0.3 or 0.8kWh is far too low. It would not be possible to move a car 38km with such little energy. That only thing I can think of is that your meter is showing an average over a 24 hour period or something strange. 0.3kWh average over 24hrs would give 7.2kWh total. That would seem closer to being the correct amount of power required to charge a 6kWh battery pack (the charger will use more than what it charges as some is lost to heat etc).

Guy's its easy.
There are no diferences ac or dc, it's all energy, doesn't matter at what voltage, yes there are losses (mainly heat in the appliance/charger and batteries) but it all can be accounted for.

Power is measured in Watts, 1000 of em is 1 kW.
When talking electricity, Watts = Volts x Amps, when time is brought into the equation we talk about AmpHours and kiloWattHours etc.

A 100 W light bulb on a 10 volt battery will draw (use) 10 amps.
A 100 W light bulb on a 100 volt system will draw 1 amp.

WattHours is relevant across any voltage but amphours is only relevant when refered to voltage.

Who builds these electric motors out of curiousity?

Got a link to a supplier?

matberry wrote:Guy's its easy.
There are no diferences ac or dc, it's all energy, doesn't matter at what voltage, yes there are losses (mainly heat in the appliance/charger and batteries) but it all can be accounted for.

Beg to differ

There are big differences between AC and DC - especially where motors and capacitors are involved.

What you say is ONLY true for resistive load.

Coils (inductive load) the current vector is 90 degrees (i will say up) to the resistive load
Capacitors are 90 degrees down

The whole reason we have huge banks of capacitors for power factor correction in electrical set ups

the missing bit is "cos Ø"

On a straight coil it is possible to have current draw and no work done

SO yes it does get confusing when talking about plugging into an AC grid and DC power and motors and coils

Which is what this is all about

PS
it is a LONG time sine i did my electrical apprenticeship but i do remember some "general things"

Good to see we are keeping the mind ticking here
its got to be better than Sudoku

Well Mr Bizzare, I stand corrected, yes you are right and you obviously remember more than me from the apprenticeship days, but I was just trying to point out the basic principles for the thread and that the energy can be accounted for. As you have pointed out there are many more factors that do affect the details.

Spotted this today - having an a/c electric bug would literally be cool.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=715849

I'm also thinking of an electric conversion for a bay kombi. I currently have a bay (called Bullet) in storage that has no mechanicals, and a big hole in the roof where the pop-top used to be. Apart from that the body is in okay condition.

My plan is to cut the body down to make a single cab ute, like this:



The space between the chassis and the tray will be used to store the batteries in a custom box. You could store a lot of batteries under there.

I was looking at using a 144v motor like the ones here http://www.evmotors.com.au/products/fb1.html

If the tray is made up of lightweight materials such as aluminium, the increase in weight caused by the batteries should be offset by the reduced weight in body.

Still in planning stages at the moment. A couple of things are swaying me towards the electic option. One is that I don't currently have a motor for the project. Being a custome tray, cooling an aircooled motor may be problematic. For a fully reco air cooled motor, the dollars are large. I could do a water cooled conversion such as a commodore V6 or subie, but it's a lot of stuffing about with ecu's and exhausts and I really can't be bothered, and it is also lots of dollars. The electric option seems pretty straightforward, and not a lot more expensive ($3.5K for motor + conroller + batteries).

This would be my work ute. Short runs around town. The occaisional longer trip. I'd like to be able to get 150 to 200 kms out of a charge, so I'll be looking at a lot of batteries. One idea was to have two banks of batteries, and swap between them when needed, but I'm not sure how feasible that is.

Being in Tassie, there aren't a lot of EV's on the road, and I might try to find some sort of sponsorship for the project, maybe involve the local TAFE. We'll see where it goes.

Cheers,

Paul

Very interesting reading and debate. Hats off to Mike at CBB for a very tidy conversion indeed ! But still one important fact missing, what is the cost of conversion ?

Silver's reasons for considering the conversion certainly make sense to me, I rarely drive my beetle these days. When I do it is usually locally for no more than 30 mins at a time, and mainly for my son's entertainment and joy, as he loves going out in it. The idea of an almost silent, retro looking techie car is very appealing. If I could complete the conversion for what I could sell my twin Dell'd 1776 and all the other miscellaneous parts that were surplus, Id be starting the swap tomorrow.
Why ? Its different, and at the same time NOT a Subaru swap that has become the norm. Sure there are other things to consider, but for me it just the whole alternative thinking, being different. My current usage pattern for my beetle, is well within the range of the CBB conversion.
Unfortunately, I am sure the costs involved would prohibit me from even considering this further. My wife already sees the annual running costs of the beetle, out third car, as self indulgent, spending more money on it would simply be fanning the fire.

I will donate $25 towards Wes' return airfare to come down to CBB and see for himself and compare the facts & figures with Mike in person. Any one else want to chip in? 9 donations more and its $250 which would more than cover it ? Just dont mention the environmental cost of the air travel, i guess.

Hi

Saw these kits in the US http://rebirthauto.com/assembledvolkswegenbettleconversionkit.aspx

Steve

Not doing this conversion for a while I spent the money on a new GTI

Hi

Wayne I had an R36 wagon during the Nationals, you should have bought one of them.

Steve

Pity you had to give it back Steve! Maybe you can talk Eileen into trading the Prado in on one? I bet she would like one even more than the old Audi 200T.

Did the electric Beetle make it to the Nationals? I was too busy working most of the day to have a wander through the show.

Wagons are for farmers🙄

You'd be the fastest farmer around...

Wes , interesting how you interpreted this statement
Quote "
The electric car we built and drive daily to and from work uses 42 amp hour sealed lead acid batteries or commonly called maintenance free batteries. We run 12 of them wired in series which makes the battery pack 144 volts. 42 amps multiplied by the 144 volts gives you 6048 watts of power. This is easier said as 6.048kwh. For this we travel 35 - 38klm on a single charge.
"
That reads to me as a description of the Batteries and the available power to supply to the motor.
- Surely you dont drive your Car at Full throttle to and from work each day 😊
-
You know that an electric car only uses high current to accelerate the vehicle.... then as would be typical on most daily commutes it would be almost coasting, to then slow down for the next traffic lights.....
Where it sits " not using any energy " because it doesnt have to idle.
-
Think about it , you will realize that what Mike stated as Measured is correct. Yes there may be an error in the Kw Hours , so it may be 0.825 Kwh to recharge.
-
Mike asked me to investigate the possibility of regenerative
braking on his car and if you are reading this Mike - I have
spoken to a College Professor [ well teacher actually 🙂 ]
and he said he has a system to do it.
So that will mean less recharge even 🙂
Glenn.

Glenn,

Your being confused by the units. 6.048kWh's isn't power, it's energy. 1kWh = 1kJ/s*h = 3600kJ's. Those batteries contain 3600x6.048 = 21773kJ's of energy. Whether you draw it out slowly and make it last longer (part throttle) or draw it out fast and use it all quickly (full throttle) has little to do with how far you go.

If you charge it with 0.825kWh of energy, that is 2970kJ of energy. The energy going in to recharge (2970kJ) is a lot less than the energy you get out (21773kJ) therefore there is something wrong. Those figures don't match up.

Here's another calc in J's.

Assume a petrol car uses 6L/100km and travels for 38km. It uses 2.28L of fuel.

Fuel has an energy content of around 32000kJ/L. Therefore to travel the 38km, 72960kJ of energy is used as the fuel is burned. Unfortunately in a combustion engine only about 30% of that energy goes into useful work (the rest into heat etc). Therefore 21888kJ of energy from the fuel went into moving the car the 38km.

This is very similar to the capacity of the batteries above. The car should take the same amount of energy to move independant of what type of engine it has.

been in it, driven it, looked at it, seen it run the 1/8th mile and everything in between..... reliable as hell, and super efficient..... i love that car and want to build one of my own...... i personally have always been against electric cars but this thing makes it cool!!! only disadvantage is the cost of building it and then there are the batteries if u use it alot...... u can save some money with standard lead-acid, but if u want long running times, better performance and longer life expectancy u need to go lithium...... i think mike might be switching his batteries soon too... so will be interesting to see how he goes