Welcome to the inside of my head. I've always wanted to start a post with that sentance considering how I rabbit on.
Ye olde 1916 has gone from 76 to 99.9 HP over the years with no change in compression, exhaust or carbs.
Cam history.
Pobjoy old-steroids 37/68.
Liked it, it's still mint with matching lifters. I may reuse it in another engine. It had good power, good fuel economy and didn't have enough lift to cause valve train wear (except with the 44 inlet valve street eliminators I chose when I had NFI).
Webcam 109.
This is a bit of an open wound.
Some commercially dishonest yanks said to use this cam with 1.25 rockers and DRD Level 5 heads. To be safe I used it with 1.1 rockers and a smidge of coil bind ate the lifters after 1000 kms during the first track day. This was supposed to be equivalent to the engle 125 but more modern.
Engle 130
No complaints in power and reliability. However it's a bit heavy on fuel. My freeway engine speeds vary between 3500 and 4000 rpm. It's richest at 2500 rpm. I think it's due to the overlap, reversion of such a long duration cam.
What to try?
For starters I'm going to try a rocker cam with chromoly pushrods even though there's nothing wrong with the 1.1 rocker cams. You should see my 130 and the lifters. There polished like chrome with not even a hint of pitting after about 8,000 miles, 5 track days, a Dutton rally, 2 trips to Portland and 2 trips to Warwick.
A K8 is looking likely. The flow chart suggests the heads could do with the extra lift of 1.4 rockers. I want to reduce the duration to bring the power down the rev range a little and make the car a bit more economical on long trips. That way the cam change will pay for itself.
A K10 is tempting after seeing how hard Colin's car goes. His heads are heaps bigger than mine though.
Rembember I'm dealing with 040 heads with mini D inlet ports and exhaust ports that look stock except for the fact they've removed the exhaust guide boss.
I'll have to get the heads machined or longer valves to make 1.4 rockers work.
Straight cuts could also be on the cards.
Then there's the freshly rebuilt IDAs on the work bench, but I doubt the heads are big enough.
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.
Disagreement, argument, suggestion and abuse is requested wtih this post.
CYA CT3
hellbugged ·
YAY, ratio rockers are goooooood, free power and better for valve train as far as i'm concerned!!!
yeah, K8 is very nice and streetable too......i worry the highway speed rpm might be bang on the "come in" spot with that cam tho your close ratios will make it great on the track, i've only run it with 48's, so 44's might be cleaner through the rpm range
..agree the K10 might be too much for the heads.......
i know a few fans of the V26 tho( one that has had experience with every cam in the engle range and insisted that's what i built around) and suspect our heads would be vey similar...... come up and have a drive of mine anytime........i'm sure DB will fill you in on it's performance and one of his old customers results and longevity with it
straight cuts will drive you nuts............. i'm nuts about them🙅
.......all in all, i don't know poop tho, cant wait to see what others have to say
bat69 ·
I love straight cut cam gears but I think they will send you bonkers when driving the thing on the street. I know this is not the same but my beetle has straight cuts in the box and I have to wear ear plugs when driving it around the block let alone driving it on the freeway at 4000rpm all the way to Portland.. As for the cam. Stick with what you got, it works doesnt it?
BiX ·
CT,
I have been running the W120 with 1.25:1 in my new engine. Done about 10k on it......... could be an option to reduce duration but not lift? try the table below....do you want the excel version?
fullnoise3 wrote:Disagreement, argument, suggestion and abuse is requested wtih this post.
CYA CT3
OK. U smell.
Jak
Cam ·
Trust you to open the flood gates, Jak.
fullnoise3 ·
Okay Jak. You drive like a girl!
Before you say it, yes you are faster than me in my own car.
CT
Jak Rizzo ·
fullnoise3 wrote:Okay Jak. You drive like a girl!
CT
I can't compete with that.
Jak
fullnoise3 ·
At least I win at something.
Did I leave my "I'm with stupid" shirt at your place?
Wanna do a hillclimb?
Jak you're a whimp.
CYA CT
fullnoise3 ·
Joel ·
keep it going your keeping the rest of us amused
vw54 ·
CT get the BIGGEST bumps you can
whats the cam FK89 or ??? cuts in about 5 grand and pumps
vw54 ·
Hey CT how come u got 2 user IDs nowdays
do u want me to FIX them to one again
ring me tomorrow 8304-4109 when u get to work
What stickey tyres 15 x 205 do u have in stock for the circuit car
fullnoise3 ·
We've got some weapon soft compound 205/50R15 ADVAN A050s on a boat which may be here in the next month.
I won't tell you where the first set will be going but I'll give you a hint. It's a car that currently has no camshaft.
Come to think of it the camshaft might be on the same boat as the tyres. I hope it doesn't sink.
I couldn't login to my old ID. I probably entered my password incorrectly too many times.🤓
CYA CT
vw54 ·
ring me in the morning and i will fix yr ID etc etc
hope its not the SLOWBOAT
any idea on a special pricing for the tyres
Jak Rizzo ·
fullnoise3 wrote:At least I win at something.
Did I leave my "I'm with stupid" shirt at your place?
Wanna do a hillclimb?
Jak you're a whimp.
CYA CT
now thats just plain nasty.
But back on topic, I think u shouldnt' change the camshaft.
The thought
Lets put 19's on your car, fully fully sik...........then we'll enter it into.......
blah blah blah, dribble dribble , heres a mug......... The Reply
I know what u are saying, but your loosing your enthusiasm. Converting a 2.7L back to 1880cc is certainly innovative but it is really enough to brag about. mor blah blah & plenty of dribble.
"We've got to stop building engines for people, it's just too messy........
Well u know the rest.
vassy66T1 ·
This is definitely the funniest thread I have seen on here in ages.
sets a new benchmark for nonsense 🙅
I am still digesting the good oil on camshafts though so keep it coming, particularly those who don't drive the car down the highway but do race other then drag...
colin ·
Okay CT here we go
BIG valve heads,
K8 or k10 cam,
1.45.1 berg ratio rockers,
straight cuts,
48IDA carbs 135-140 main 45-50 idle 180 air 37 vents.
If your going to do something do it 100%.
These yokhama a050 r specys mmmmmmmmmm yum yum.
Cheers Col
ian.mezz ·
ahhhhh get a Subaru and you get 4 cams hehehe😂
c u Ian
matberry ·
Now that's cam a list, need to throw in some Berg options too, excel would make it easier for my tired old eyes.🙅
Daimo's got the idea for someone that knows poop, 1.4 rocker's are a must, K8's a good option, but really I'd aim for headjob (bigger valves and good port job) and Fk87 maybe, I love em. What compression you running, and 100km/h rpm?
........ive said before, but best accurate cam real "performance" descriptions come from the berg books and website, from there you can see duration, lift and engle equivelet
good one Ian M 😂
dangerous ·
I must sound like a broken record.
DONT USE K8.(some brands may be OK)
I know 6 people who have used it (the one that Berg does with the lobe so small it is through the induction hardening),
and every one of them had low power and /or broke valve train parts.
R H: broken Berg rocker studs("get autocraft ones" they said)
G H: Broken rocker arms
D P: Broken rocker studs and low power
B W: low power and exhaust Carbon on BACK of inlet valve
A H: low power(I told you not to choose that cam).
R F: low power
This was aggrivated by ratios larger than 1.4, and loose lash.
...and it needs 1.4s to work.
CB does their own version and it works fine with 1.4s.
Berg's cam list descriptions are accurate except that better heads and larger rocker ratios will extend the rev range beyond his numbers.
Another factor worth considering CT,
is that large lift will give a symptom similar to extending the duration,
so your choice will have to factor this in.
V26 is the one you want, or even something smaller if you are using a rocker ratio larger than 1.4.
FK87 generally comes on between 3500 and 4000 so may work with your small heads by being
below the power band on the highway.
The number on the dyno WILL be higher, but perhaps not much fun on long trips(fuel economy).
hellbugged ·
dangerous wrote:Berg's cam list descriptions are accurate except that better heads and larger rocker ratios will extend the rev range beyond his numbers.
yes, i will remember to mention that in the future...........
nice info as usual there DB
Craig Torrens ·
Would the Tighe 149A be similiar to the V26 ??
Jak Rizzo ·
Cam wrote:Good to see you back to regular posting Jak 😂
Yes Cam, but it's time that I will never get back.....
Go the K8 CT, I had engle versions & billet versions , ran them with single Berg springs & Dual springs, ran them with 1.25 rockers & 1.45 rockers. Never ever had cam or Drivetrain issues. Ever. Wether taking the kids to school or trying to keep up with u on the track.
Jak
PS u still smell
cnfabo ·
hey dave, i have a k8 but with 1.25 rockers. i know u dont like it, but should i put 1.4's in.
Captain Cockatoo ·
I have used the K8 with good results so far
colin ·
Sorry Dave have to respectifully disagree.
Used a K8 cam for over 3years of racing no probs at all.
Cheers Col
colin ·
To add my K8 was an engle.
Cheers Col
fullnoise3 ·
I should've asked an easier question like.... I don't know. What's the meaning of life?
Thanks for your detailed response Dr Dave, Daimo, Col, Michael Jackson and everyone else. Also I'd like to thank God (For the time off over Easter which allowed me contemplate the VW engine religion).
Thanks Jak, for the moral support.
I haven't sent my VW lifters off to be reground yet.
I emailed the head place about the machining and stupidly half expected a response. You have to lob up and dump the heads on their counter.
From memory I've heard that the k8 has a harmonic problem or something odd like that. Surely, enough people have used them over the years to confirm they're pretty safe. Or is the problem the build quality? Are they made in China now or something?
What about a WebCam 86b?
I'm leaning towards a K10 now. Richard Holzl says he did a back to back comparison with the W130 and K10. The result being that he swears by rocker cams and thinks they're far more efficient.
Can you really get 530 lift out of 112mm long valves? I'll pull the heads apart tomorrow and have a gander.
CYA CT
Cam ·
You could of also started a topic on peace in the middle east...
Just for an after dinner, light intellectual load thread.
Camshafts, geez!
dangerous ·
colin wrote:Sorry Dave have to respectifully disagree.
Used a K8 cam for over 3years of racing no probs at all.
Cheers Col
That's cool Colin.
I think most were the berg's own version.
I can not confirm all of them, but most.
Chris Fabian, if it is a CB one (or genuine engle as Col used) you should try the 1.4s.
If it is a GB310 cam then keep your 1.25s and tighten up your tappets to zero clearance.
But you must have room for spring bind and retainer-to-gude clearance.
Every one using any grind with cromoly pushrods should use zero clearance when cold.
Because there is ony 4 degrees diff between the K8 and V26,
I woul dtend to go more toward the V26 with a larger rocker(berg 1.4s, normal brand 1.5s etc).
All this assumes the same heads...but did you say you were changing those CT?
hellbugged ·
Craig Torrens wrote:Would the Tighe 149A be similiar to the V26 ??
CT .........can you tell us a bit more of what youre after as far as drivability and rpm range you like to run in? (just for interests sake after all this) I'm lifting over .500' with the 1.45 rockers.....i'll get the books out and see what numbers it was making with the 1.54's as i did run out of travel then (although actual lift was close to 1.7:1 at the valve)
what i like about the V26 is ability to drive it from 1500 rpm right thru to 6800rpm (whilst still making GOOD POWER THERE), accepting full throttle from 2250rpm even with 48s on the 1776cc...........after having had bigger cams where feeding in the throttle was necessary, it's nice to concentrate on other things.
How did you find it when you drove it Matty B?
i'll get the camera out again and see if i can demonstrate in some footage (again just for interests sake)
all very interseting, will be great to hear results and thoughts when your done no matter what your choice
i still don't know poop
matberry ·
hellbugged wrote:How did you find it when you drove it Matty B?
i still don't know poop
The package you have there Daimo is brilliant.
It's drivability is smooth as, like a stock (dare I say it) late model ricer engine, power delivery is also very smooth being very even accross the rev range. With well over 100 hp from this small engine and temperatures well within normal range,I'd drive your car to Perth, race it and be confident it was still going to get me home. Certainly something to be proud of. Mind you, a bit more seat time would be nice to really have a go.😂
It proves it's the combination of parts and not any one or two components that will give this type of package. Any one can throw together parts. It takes a true artist to get an engine to deliver GOOD power, be driveable AND reliable.
Who is this Poop guy?
hellbugged ·
😂....you're a funny man Matt.
poop's vid........
oh CT, only girls wear ipods instead of listening to dual carbs 🥷 ..........and if you end up with a V26 and don't like it..... i'll remove all these posts so it appears it's all Doc DB's fault 😂
hmmm straight cuts..........?
got a rotary grinder and spare couple of days?.......i'll send you down the burrs and templates to do "the job" on those heads
55slug ·
Ill put a vote in for the cb k8 equivalent, .530" plus a bit lift is doable with a stock length valve with bugpack 4046 springs (thinner coil diameter - more lift to bind) and I used remmelle alu retainers, ti would probably allow more lift if required. I never found it on and off the cam, all go from idle to 7500.
fullnoise3 ·
I did a lot of thinking over the weekend. Stuff that would take others minutes. For this stuff my degree in advertising an marketing is bloody useless.
While the VZ26 sounds very tempting and a good argument has been presented and endorsed, Plan E is currently to go with the K8. I mentioned Plan F (below) to Jak on Sunday and he was disappointed. So to prevent him turning up at my house with K8 themed cheer leaders I've got no choice.
Whatever the plan I need to get the heads machined for more lift.
Now for the thinking stuff. Perhaps Captain Poop and Dr Dave can help with a red pen here.
Desired valve lift 0.530 = 13.46mm
0.090 recommended minimum distance from full lift to coil bind = 2.28mm
Total. I need the valve springs to compress a minimum of 15.74mm from the installed height.
With the valve springs removed I measured the distance between the retainers and valve guide. The minimum was 16.4mm and the maximum was 17.0mm. So the new lift won't have the retainers hitting the guides. Good.
Then I measured the distance from the top of the guide to where the springs seat. Min 15.8mm and Max 16.mm.
I think this is the figure I'll give a machine shop so the brief will be to machine the spring seat to say 17.5mm below the top of the valve guide.
The retainers are 8mm from the bottom to the top lip. Add this to the other two measurment miniums 15.8 + 16.4 and I get a minimum installed valve spring height of 40.2mm.
I put the valve springs and retainer in a vice and squashed them until they went stiffer in such a way that wasn't progressive. The compressed height was 25mm bit including the retainer.
The springs compress 15.2mm and I need them to compress 15.74. So I'm about 0.5mm too short. Should I get 1.5mm machined from where the valve springs seat and then use shimms as required?
Does that sound correct?
The idea about using the thinner coil bugpak springs is a good one too.
Plan F. If I can't get the cam and lifters in time I'm going to bung the W130 back in with 1.25 rockers. With 0.419 lift at the cam these will give around 0.523 at the valve which should bring the W130 closer to K10 specs.
CYA CT
Jak Rizzo ·
give me a "K"
Give me an "8"
What do u get?
happy jako my habib!
fullnoise ·
That fullnoise3 bloke is an idiot. Then there's that Jak bloke..... don't get me started on him.
hellbugged ·
Maths..........i've got a headache already!
DB will have the answers.........
..i'm not sure who will be doing your heads CT, but Ben Durie did plenty of work on mine (4 angle seat cut and shimming/ travels/binds etc).........HE KNOWS HIS STUFF in this area and is willing to take the time and effort required!.........without you needing to prompt on the numbers aside from providing the cam card and lift
been a while since i've had those calcs etc in my head so i wont comment too much and get it wrong. DB has spent a life time doing those numbers and is the response to take note of (not that we don't all know that already).....
sorry i'll insert more more poop here🤪....i'd be very wary of cutting the spring seats ESPECIALLY on the intake and definately not if the bumps in the inlet ports have been touched in any way during the porting...........working off actual measured lift numbers at the valve is the only way to go for me..........triple springs provide at same height more travel from memory...........must run at least one .015" shimm can run as little as 0.100" travel over lift (0.060" if you're very brave and very sure it's all measured perfect)............check the lifter to bore clearence with the new changes. i had my lifters machined under the head to provide assured clearence.......consider doing the cut between oil groves now you're going to ratio rockers......
port those suckers!.........run the exhaust ports out to 1mm off the watercooler kombi gasket size to keep some low end tourque through airflow speed.......shape those chambers good and proper! (IVE GOT THE TEMPLATES IF YOU"VE GOT THE NERVE)........
if you need anything in a hurry, i'll gladly open the conveyer belt from bergs for you.......it's really quick, brings stuff over with in the week, it could be here before this weekend (cams, modified lifters hint HINT😂).......i've got new berg standard lifters, new set molly pushrods (unasembled so can make to size) helical adjustable timing cam gears, lash caps and literally bags of valve shimms etc here if the need arises........also GOOD cam lube and the tool to run outer spring only and install inners after break in.....happy to help however i can with all this stuff if or when the need arises to keep you on target , PLEASE DONT HESITATE to ask
this is all exciting and stimulating tho ......i'll put the kettle on and wait for D.B to spread more of his wisdom
dangerous ·
ooh, cuppa sounds good!
Daimo has everything that you need to do above.
Yes, you must check the actual lift at the valve before doing any maths....well definitely before ANY machining.
There is SO much variance in rockers and the ACTUAL ratio that you have because of varying geometry,
that you absolutely have to see what you have first. (what brand rockers?)
Sounds like your retainer to guide clearance is close enough to start the process,
so the next step will be to use a light spring, and check that this is true!!
If everything clears, and your geometry is now correct,
then see if the springs will fit...no shims for now.
The reason foir this
is that once your actual springs are fitted, you will lose some lift (I lose about .030" with my big springs).
This will give you some additional room.
Try to avoid all the maths if you can.
It just gives room for error.
Yes by all means calculate what you can, before you start,
but aways check the actual real figures that are there.
Without seeing your actual situation,
I would say that I would try for a different spring and/or retainer before ever machining the spring seat.
In fact I would even run it without a spring shim if I had to, rather than make the head thin under the spring.
There are quite a few different retainers out there, and springs as you said,
so I would go that route,
and you can always pick up a little room by facing a valve or the retainer's spring surface.
.060 or 1.5 mm is a good number to aim for for the extra room to bind, as Daimo suggested,
but I have run as close as .030 on my own engine, in the search for more spring tension.
But be aware, if your combo gets a "loss of valve control",(as a K8 can) it will just do damage.
So...
set geometry and easure actual lift at the valve with soft spring.
aim for 1.5mm clearance (any clearace will do to check with heavy spring),
measure lift with heavy spring,
then make sure you can push the valve down a further 1.5mm(or less if you dare!).
I used to use the milling machine digtal read-out to check my spring travels,
but Daimo's method with the dial indicator in a drill press works even better.
And get a rev limiter!
Ah, looks like te kettle has boiled.
hellbugged ·
my thread is a pain in the backside, so i'll try to summarize the POOP method here.......(again all these tools are sitting idle if you and Jak want a weekend of fun).....the hardest part setting up the tooling properly so there is no slop causing varied measurements
STEP 1
retainer to guide clearence was checked and taken out of the way of the equation with bulk clearence (2mm after calculated lift + desired from bind added on)
cut the guides down to 16mm clearence from retainer (my lift was 13mm)......
tool.....one end cuts valve guide other cuts guide boss for inner spring of dual sets
STEP 2
measuring lift at valve on dry built motor with actual cam, followers, rockers, dual springs, retainers, keepers, lash caps and good molly pushrods (I FOUND CHANGING ANY OF THESE WOULD VARY MEASUREMENTS!)........
bracket on exhaust studs with magnetic dial indicator reading off retainer........i took measurements for each and every valve 🤪
STEP 3
taking bind measurements.....with the drill press loaded i would bottom the assembled spring to coil bind.......the dial indicator reads off the tappet cover gasket surface and therefor takes out any movement that may occur of the press table/head stand etc (i later did this with both inner and outer springs installed, these pics were a practice "photo shoot" run)
STEP 4
correct bind height with shimms to your desired "over lift" clearence.......
STEP 5.....repeat step 3 to check your new bind heights
HA HA now you know that i know poop about poop!
Jak Rizzo ·
I have all those tools except for the cutting tool, although my father may have one (retired toolmaker)
Jak
I like poop
hellbugged ·
Jak Rizzo wrote:I have all those tools except for the cutting tool, although my father may have one (retired toolmaker)
Jak
I like poop
i've quoted that one Rizzo so you can't get out of helping......put your polishing bits away....dust off the tools and get into it (you have to still feel some sympathy for those of us silly enough to prefer one cam over four.....don't you🤖)
Jak Rizzo ·
Oh I help him alright,
Do u want a coffee CT?
U want a Patizzi too?
U want a 78mm crank with that?
u get the idea.
Then there is the comedy relief, fuck I'm funny. Ask CT, he'll tell u. Oh the hillarity!
Jak
matberry ·
I know this is digging up some ancient history, but Bix offered an excel version.....any chance of getting that.
Also any other version of cam spec/comparisons out there?
If so I'd like to see please.
Thanks in advance.
Matt
BiX wrote:CT,
I have been running the W120 with 1.25:1 in my new engine. Done about 10k on it......... could be an option to reduce duration but not lift? try the table below....do you want the excel version?
looks like I finally need a new engine case ,how are the new alloy cases performing...
matberry ·
Thanks for the link Daimo, know anywhere to get type IV spec's as well?
As for the Al cases, I'm not fully convinced yet!
Doing a rebuild on one soon, happy to share info upon inspection.
hellbugged ·
yeah Paul.
know a couple of good engine builders that wont go with the ali cases...........but then Stan swears by them after he has machined them to his specs and he only offered warranty on his high end motors after the ali cases came about.
for sure (as always) there are varying levels of quality with them..........Rudi had some new ones for sale a while back, so may be worth giving him a buzz.
and yeah Matt, interested to see what you find on on inspection during the rebuild
bigrudi ·
gees im convinced have run my alloy case for 6 seasons at over 120hp at the wheels and last year at 209bhp for 5rounds plus heaps of laps at the natoinals see silver lbug going round and round and round . then ran the last four sprints of the year with 300 plus atw .checked out the case and bearings as new put it back togeather same mains and bigends no fretting in case what so ever all machined surfaces are perfect std mag case engines i have used show freting at joint surfaces and wear in bearing tunnels after only 2x rounds .A wise man told me a long time ago your case is the foundation of your engine build weak link in type 1 engine is the mag case Ihave used both types and the alloy is the one may be slightly heavier 3 kg but when preped properly will give excellent service cheers Rudi
hellbugged ·
thanks Rudi, very informative!
matberry ·
Thanks Rudi, I think you hit the nail on the head with the comment "when prepped properly". As with much of the gear from the Auto Linea foundry, its the prep work that makes or breaks the build. Very nice to hear about your expierences with the lack of any sign of fretting even with all those ponies in there. 😀
PAZZAN ·
Yeah the only problem with my motor is the case ,,everything else is still like new..👍 case cracked center main cradle on 1.2 cylinder side...really can't complain its been a tuff motor..now its time to decide to rebuild or sell the parts & start a new project...
bigrudi ·
turbo sounds nice puts very big smile on dial have one case left ring me 0418442953 cheers Rudi