Does anyone else get aggressive when reading some twit writing AGAIN that "these are getting rare" when talking about Kombi's on Ebay??? I mean, there's usually never less than about 6 on Ebay at a time..! Do people think that this is going to spurn people into a buying frenzy? 馃槀馃お馃檯馃槵
helbus 路
Mitsubishi Colts are getting rare! A Daewoo Espero is rare.
Special Air Service 路
helbus wrote:A Daewoo Espero is rare.
Cool, I'll tell the bloke at work that he should list his on ebay馃槀馃槀馃槀
greedy53 路
old kombi drivers are getting rare well the ones with sight are
grumble 路
helbus wrote:Mitsubishi Colts are getting rare! A Daewoo Espero is rare.
thank goodnes for that,I wish some other s####boxes would become rarer
Joel 路
helbus wrote:Mitsubishi Colts are getting rare!
what u talking about theyre ultra rare collectors items......
the only ones that havent gone to wreckers are the grandmas that have yet to tick over 30,000k and get their first rebuild 馃お
usually identified by the large smoke screen following them down the road
Bizarre 路
i saw a Honda Zot on the road the other day
Dunno about rare - just uber cool!
pete wood 路
vwombat wrote:Does anyone else get aggressive when reading some twit writing AGAIN that "these are getting rare" when talking about Kombi's on Ebay??? I mean, there's usually never less than about 6 on Ebay at a time..! Do people think that this is going to spurn people into a buying frenzy? 馃槀馃お馃檯馃槵
just let me put my chaps on and get my hobby horse out, cos this really sticks in my craw... especially with respect to VWs.
...most common car in the world...wanna call em rare... 馃槵
colonel mustard 路
helbus wrote:A Daewoo Espero is rare.
GOOD!!!!! I hope they get more rare.... actually, I hope they all spontaniously combust and cease to exist. Terrible car, TERRIBLE!! GAH!!!
h 路
Bizarre wrote:i saw a Honda Zot on the road the other day
Dunno about rare - just uber cool!
an over sexed lawn mower more like it.. 馃槀
now trabants are cool..
68AutoBug 路
helbus wrote:Mitsubishi Colts are getting rare! A Daewoo Espero is rare.
Well Mitsubishi Colts are getting old too...
especially the two gear stick models...
there is a local Espero in great condition , I really like that model... it looks great IMHO... and I haven't seen too many around...
A local had a honda Z car many years ago...
was probably the original owner...
He lived about 5 kms from town, so it didn't go far...
Remember that Honda only started making cars recently - compared to other makers... and owned by Mr Honda himself... although He has passed away since..
A Honda Z with an S800 engine would have been fun driving..
a car that sounds like a motor bike
or like a formula one engine is rare... ... lol
LEE
amazeer 路
Its all relative. compared to X, Z is rare.
I dont think Esperos are rare at all. They are everywhere. Not like the trusty colt... which I learnt to drive in.
I'm wishing ovals were heaps rare, but you could find oval parts at any garage sale.
I am wishing BF falcons were rare... even extinct in my garage, the friggin bonnet release came of in my hand tonight!
grumble 路
Colonel mustard I agree wholehearedly!Perhaps a few Kia's,Daewoos and the list goes on,a few years agoI would have included morris Marina's and p76's but time has cured those.
helbus 路
Try and buy a Subaru SVX!
68AutoBug 路
Not the Aussie MORRIS Marina.... lol
Morris 1500 Front Wheel Drive
Morris 1500S " " "
even the morris 1100....
and the AUSTIN 1800... saw a couple last week...
about 100kms apart.... lol
and the Rare Leyland P76.... and the Force 7 Leyland..
Pommy cars don't seem to last in Australia...
I don't think it was a rust problem either??
Ford Cortinas - and the Chrysler CENTURA...
what about the Nissan/Ford cars made in Australia
made in the 80s..??
No parts are available for these twins....
LEE
PS: I didn't really like any of those cars... lol
amazeer 路
I have a friend who loves "the P". They just had really bad build quality. Once you pull them apart and put them back together properly they are great. so he says.
colonel mustard 路
there are so many cars i hate... i probably shouldnt get started.
Anthiron 路
a mate of mine has a morris 1100, its a pretty cool car, hydrolastic syspension, and i know a girl who has a mitsubishi colt that you could call immaculate its amazing the interior is perfect, wonder if its worth anything now that they are getting rare馃檯
grumble 路
Thanks for reminding me Lee, the chrysler centura. What a car!,I still have a new set of hydraulic lifters somewhere for one of theses s##that I got stuck with with.If anyone is interested give me a call and I'll see if I can find them.
Phil74Camper 路
Ah the Chrysler Centura - it was actually a French Simca, with parts imported from France including the 1.8 and 2.0-litre engines. Chrysler bolted them together in Adelaide, and shoehorned the 4.0-litre '245' hemi six into it. Result - diabolical handling. The quality control was short on both quality, and control. It was cumbersome, thirsty, choppy, slow and had a plethora of assembly faults. Assembly lasted only 30 months before it was axed.
This info comes from the book 'Lemon!', written by Australian motoring journalist Tony Davis. Well worth finding. It lists several dozen cars that are awful for any number of reasons - such as a bad idea done ordinarily (Volvo 760), an ordinary idea done badly (Triumph Stag), a good car badly built (Alfasud), a bad car built well (Lagonda), or any other combination in between.
Some of the 'memorable' lemons include the Lightburn Zeta, De Lorean, HDT Director, Leyland P76, Nissan Pulsar EXA, Morris Marina, Ford Capri (soft top), Nissan Pintara, Lada Samara, Triumph TR7, Valiant VH Hardtop, FSM Niki, NSU Ro80, Datsun 120Y, Subaru Vortex, Mazda Roadpacer, Austin Allegro, Honda S600 and Datsun 200B. It also mentions some interesting Japanese cars like the Daihatsu Naked, and the Subaru Touring Bruce.
Hmm, they are ALL rare.
trickysimon 路
Phil, is there anything in the past that you don't know about?馃槀
colonel mustard 路
Phil74Camper wrote:Some of the 'memorable' lemons include the Lightburn Zeta, De Lorean, HDT Director, Leyland P76, Nissan Pulsar EXA, Morris Marina, Ford Capri (soft top), Nissan Pintara, Lada Samara, Triumph TR7, Valiant VH Hardtop, FSM Niki, NSU Ro80, Datsun 120Y, Subaru Vortex, Mazda Roadpacer, Austin Allegro, Honda S600 and Datsun 200B. It also mentions some interesting Japanese cars like the Daihatsu Naked, and the Subaru Touring Bruce.
Hmm, they are ALL rare.
Hey... some of those are good cars....
and some were just crap... what the heck was the point of the TR7?? nothing.. to get smashed on mythbusters, thats what
Phil74Camper 路
My favourite primary school teacher, Mr Grant (6th class 1975), always said that if you didn't know something when asked, you should reply "I dunno - but I'll find out." I guess I'm still finding out (I had to look up that stuff about the Centura...)
Another saturday night at home in front of the computer (at least there is a beer beside me)
Phil74Camper 路
To quote from Tony Davis' book:
1. De Lorean: "The build quality was woeful. The design was tail-heavy, noisy, expensive and slow. Visibility was poor, the gullwing doors were a disaster and the stainless steel bodywork found few friends. Sales were calamitous. Within a year the De Lorean Motor Company was in the hands of a receiver."
2. NSU Ro80: "The car's revolutionary powerplant was its failure. The Ro80 was a great meal brought to the table too quickly. If it had been fitted with a conventional engine, or launched a couple of years later with a better version of the same engine, it would have been an enduring success. At least Mazda was to prove that the Wankel could be made reliable, if not cheap to produce or fuel efficient."
3. Mazda Roadpacer: "The Roadpacer was a sales disaster. The Wankel engine drank like a salaryman at the end of a long week. The Roadpacer was too wide, causing problems on narrow Japanese streets. It attracted a 'wide car tax'. The suspension was softened so it bottomed out on anything approaching a rough road. The body shape gave Mazda no advantages in weight distribution and few in packaging. The Roadpacer's weight was a hefty 1575kg and the high-revving 13B produced 98 kW. Mazda went to great lengths to produce a car that no quicker than a standard six-cylinder Holden Premier, yet used a great deal more fuel in exchange for little more than additional smoothness. In any case, the car was killed off a few months before Ford completed its purchase of 25% of Mazda's shares."
colonel mustard 路
but...
De Loreans are still being made now, Even if it is just because of the cool factor.
NSURo80 was the only reason rotarys ever got out there, without it there would be no hardcore rotarys... If there was no RX3's, there would be alot more beetles, and alot less people with serious idea's of how to get amazing power down onto the track. Think of motoring history without rotarys.... I cant imagine it. The RX7 was and is an amazing car.
Roadpacer.... as above. totally pointless, however, 10 points for cool. 馃檪
cb john 路
trickysimon wrote:Phil, is there anything in the past that you don't know about?馃槀
Don't worry, if Phil is not around, there is always somebody else...
Phil74Camper 路
De Lorean Motors went into receivership in 1982 and no originals have been made since then. The 'new' ones, made in Texas by a new company, are replicas with many design changes; only 20% of the parts are original. Not the same thing.
Sure the Ro80 was a landmark car (although it was the NSU Spider that was the FIRST Wankel car) and I love them. But they were lemons because they were put on sale before the engine was properly developed; as described, they were excellent otherwise (the 1982 Audi 100 was a tribute to the Ro80 in many ways). The Wankel development sent NSU bankrupt. VW bought them and stopped major inventment in Wankel engines (the last Ro80 was made in 1976). Mazda also came close to bankruptcy a few times, but they survived. Conventional engines are Mazda's mainstay today. BTW, they are Wankel engines, not 'rotary' engines (an inaccurate nickname). ALL engines are 'rotary' engines.
10 points out of 100!
colonel mustard 路
fine. Its still a part of motor history. It was only set so far behind because the Germans put Felix wankel in jail.
I cant say I agree on it being an inaccurate nickname... The pistons dont rotate in a flat four...
I agree with you about Mazda today, I would say that FE's (rx8's) are only 2-3% of the company's sales..... max. (having worked there until recently, I kinda know whats going on..)
68AutoBug 路
grumble wrote:Thanks for reminding me Lee, the chrysler centura. What a car!,I still have a new set of hydraulic lifters somewhere for one of theses s##that I got stuck with with.If anyone is interested give me a call and I'll see if I can find them.
My Son knows someone local who loves Centuras.... lol
he uses them as dirt race track cars....
although i would say He is using the 6 cylinder engine...
not the french engines... 4 cyls..
OK - what IS a lemon???
P76s were built at the wrong time... parts shortage due to strike...
NSU RO80.. I just love the body...
these cars would not have sold well in Germany or Europe
because of the Bad fuel economy...
GOGOmobile... two stroke engine needed the spark plugs cleaned nearly every time it stopped...
Interesting about the DeLorean...
a stainless steel body...
(They seemed like a good car in "Back to the future"..lol )
LEE
dAVo 路
If there's a car that's really hard on my eyes it's the Subaru Vortex. God dam they are the ugliest car ever!!
Phil74Camper 路
No the pistons don't rotate in a conventional engine, but the crankshaft does. In a Wankel, the three-pointed rotor both rotates around the central eccentric shaft, AND makes orbital revolutions of the shaft, three rotations for one orbit.
In aviation circles (pardon the pun), a rotary engine is one where the crank is stationary, but the entire cylinder block rotates around it. It was mostly used in WW1 fighter planes such as the Sopwith Camel - the Le Rhone is the most famous example - with the crank fastened to the chassis, and the block and cylinders rotated. The prop was fastened to the crankcase, not the crank end. Not to be confused with a radial engine - same cylinder arrangement but this time the crank rotates and the block is stationary.
Some other 'Lemons' from Tony Davis' follow-up book, 'Extra Lemon':
Jaguar XJ220, Nissan Cedric, Chevy Corvair, Austin X6 (Tasman/Kimberley), Ford Cortina 6, Subaru 360, Datsun 280ZX, Hillman Imp, Toyota Corona 'Starfire', Honda Z, Holden Piazza, Oldsmobile Toronado, Ford EA Falcon, VW Country Buggy, Jensen Interceptor, Holden Camira, AMC Pacer, Purvis Eureka, Ford Landau Coupe, Suzuki X90, Holden Brougham, Toyota 2000GT, Ford Pinto, Valiant CM, Austin Freeway, AMC Gremlin, HD Holden, Trabant, Standard Vanguard, Ford Falcon XK...
amazeer 路
not to be confused with the nissan cedrics on club buggery. I dont think they were lemons.... but they might have been I guess :P
In the coronas defence, the starfire (misfire) was a holden engine. Not sure if they were on sale here, but they even sold early commodore's with them in new zealand when I was there mid 80's. Can you imagine how awe inspiring a 1.9 litre auto commodore wagon would have been? I believe they got the 2 litre RB whatever nissan engine in the VL's as well.
Joel 路
ah yea the good ol commodore backfire
a freind bought a VH with one and fark me dead i would get out and walk faster.... the old 202s were bad enough without hacking off 2 of the cylinders
she wanted to put a.c in and i said u gotta be kidding me 馃お
atleast there was plenty of room in the engine bay 馃槀
id like to know what this tony davis bloke is basing the lemon list on other than personal opinion
yea most of the cars onthere are lemons but a few of them i wouldnt call that
as much as im not a fan of the old 120y and 200b, i wouldnt consider them a lemon and pintaras?
helbus 路
120Y was definitely not a lemon. Slow, small, uninteresting yes, but fuel efficient, reliable and cheap also yes.
Joel 路
like most dattos they take a good caining too
colonel mustard 路
Pintara's are plain crap. haha
I dont agree with you on the fact that a piston engine is rotational.... if it wasnt, Its just a block of metal, the crank rotates, thats how it works. Its a rotary becase the combustion spins.... its not about being technical, its about common sense...? (not trying to be rude..)
cb john 路
Phil74Camper wrote:No the pistons don't rotate in a conventional engine, but the crankshaft does. In a Wankel, the three-pointed rotor both rotates around the central eccentric shaft, AND makes orbital revolutions of the shaft, three rotations for one orbit.
In aviation circles (pardon the pun), a rotary engine is one where the crank is stationary, but the entire cylinder block rotates around it. It was mostly used in WW1 fighter planes such as the Sopwith Camel - the Le Rhone is the most famous example - with the crank fastened to the chassis, and the block and cylinders rotated. The prop was fastened to the crankcase, not the crank end. Not to be confused with a radial engine - same cylinder arrangement but this time the crank rotates and the block is stationary.
Some other 'Lemons' from Tony Davis' follow-up book, 'Extra Lemon':
Jaguar XJ220, Nissan Cedric, Chevy Corvair, Austin X6 (Tasman/Kimberley), Ford Cortina 6, Subaru 360, Datsun 280ZX, Hillman Imp, Toyota Corona 'Starfire', Honda Z, Holden Piazza, Oldsmobile Toronado, Ford EA Falcon, VW Country Buggy, Jensen Interceptor, Holden Camira, AMC Pacer, Purvis Eureka, Ford Landau Coupe, Suzuki X90, Holden Brougham, Toyota 2000GT, Ford Pinto, Valiant CM, Austin Freeway, AMC Gremlin, HD Holden, Trabant, Standard Vanguard, Ford Falcon XK...
OK, they are lemons, but try to get the sales figures for each and you'll see, that lemons sold pretty well...
Joel 路
depends which model pintara hes refering to
if its the old R31 then yea sticking a cruddy twin plug CA20 in a car built for the bigger 6cyl RB30 were gutless but hardly a lemon
and the later frontwheel drive U12 pintaras/corsairs are actually good robust little cars
alfasuds tho the deserve to be on there
my aunty had one, i didnt think it was possible for a car to literally vanish with rust
cb john 路
That all depends on the angle of looking at it...all Italian cars rust in no time, but perform and handle pretty good..
I used to own Honda 360Z and besides it was quite gutless, it was a relatively good daily drive and so far the best in my records as a perfectly built car, with nothing to pick on...I used to own Alfa Junior GT, it was a pleasure to drive, untill the door hinges fell out...
dAVo 路
Joel wrote:like most dattos they take a good caining too
I can vouch for that. My first car was a 180B. Man that thing took a floggin but it still carried on real strong. Wasn't in bad nick when I sold it either. Small leak in the radiator and that was it.
Andy 路
Hey Phil, I'd be interested to see why the Triumph Stag was a lemon?
They had their issues, but I have not heard them called a lemon before!
Phil74Camper 路
Jason the combustion area in a Wankel doesn't 'spin'. Sure it moves around the perimeter of the casing, but not over 360 degrees, and in the combustion step it is retained and compressed by the rotor moving past. The spark plugs are stationary in the block. An aircraft rotary engine, on the other hand, has the whole shebang rotating abround the stationary crank. Yes it's a technicality, but that's science for you. Common sense is great but is only a starting point and can often be misleading. Most people still think heavy objects fall faster than light ones because common sense says so. Common sense is wrong in that case (and many others too).
Cars can be lemons for many reasons. Of course Tony Davis (son of legendary motoring writer Pedr Davis) is writing from his own opinion, but it's one based on many years of experience. Why not get a copy of his book? Or phone him at the Sydney Morning Herald (Drive Life section).
As a matter of interest, the rotary engine that was fitted into WW1 fighter planes like the Sopwith Camel had some interesting problems.
About half the total weight of the plane was rotating, so they were very tricky to get off the ground and to fly with, in effect, a huge flywheel out the front. They would either ground loop or flip over, just after take off.
Because the engine and propeller were both rotating it was very difficult to get the plane to turn on one direction, against the force of the flywheel effect and very easy to get it to go in the opposite direction as the plane could virtually rotate around the propeller.
An enemy plane would try to make you go the difficult way to escape so that he could shoot you down, but if you went the other way you could do a somersault in the air and suddenly be on his tail to shoot him down.
Because of the big flywheel out the front they were also tricky to land, so, just before touch down, the ignition was switched off, the landing was made and then the engine was switched on again to taxi to the hanger. Next time you watch an old WW1 war movie listen for that as the fighter planes land.
To see what I mean about the flywheel effect, get a bicycle wheel, hold the axles tight, get someone to spin it up and then try to turn it about.
Because the cylinders rotated, there was an intake manifold that opened the intakes like a slide valve system, with the carburettor inside the plane and a hollow crankshaft half to get the intake air into the engine.
The exhaust valves were simple pushrod affairs, but there was no exhaust manifold, so the exhaust exited into the engine bay, this meant the there was a big opening at the bottom of the engine bay to allow the exhaust fumes to escape.
The engine was lubricated, like a two stroke engine, with oil in the fuel, but in this case it was castor oil, so after a flight the pilot usually needed a toilet in a hurry.
Even with all those weird problems the rotary engine was a great success and all combatents used them.
They were outpaced technically by the ordinary radial engine after the war and stopped being used as they were a classic example of the expression, "A complicated way to do a simple job, badly".
trickysimon 路
I think it is better know as the gyroscope effect shaihulud, but great story 馃檪
modulus 路
Phil74Camper wrote:Some other 'Lemons' from Tony Davis' follow-up book, 'Extra Lemon':
... Ford Cortina 6, ...
I drove one of those once and it damn near killed me. Most evil-handling car every invented.
68AutoBug 路
Yes,
The rotary engine - pistons going round and round...
NOT up & Down...
probably would have been cheaper to produce than a piston engine but not as fuel effecient
What ever happened to the orbital engine??
that was going to take over the piston engines too...
A Lemon to Me is a car that doesn't perform as good as other cars at that time...
or keep breaking down etc...
That subaru Vortex was just an unusually shaped car..
I don't believe they were a lemon...
maybe butt ugly....lol
the Vauxhall Viva was a terrible car....
did everything wrong.... but maybe didn't break down...
it has always facinated Me that a car company can make a pefectly Good car and sell heaps of them....
then they redesign it completely... everything different..
and it can have handling and design problems...
the HD holden was the worse Holden ever built..
Body roll was excessive - resulting in lost traction etc..
BUT - the previous model EH Holden was called the best holden ever built at that time...
LEE
Phil74Camper 路
I am really enjoying this thread, I must say.
Aeroplanes are a big interest of mine so it's great to see that someone else knows about WW1 fighter planes and their engines - thanks shaihulud. Yes rotaries were an evolutionary dead end, but they did the job very well for the time. Engine tech was in its infancy, and the rotating engine and prop mass gave them more inherent smoothness than the pop pop inline conventional engines of the time. The whirling cylinders also helped cooling, as they were always in a fast-moving air flow. Flying them, with such a huge gyroscopic effect, must have been a handful. Sopwith Camel aces must have been superb pilots.
I've given Tony Davis enough of a plug. There are other lists of 'Lemons', and 'Worst cars of all time.' Here's one put out by Time Magazine, to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the most famous lemon of them all, the Edsel. The 50 Worst Cars of All Time. No Aussie cars though.
4 cylinder Ford Cortinas were badly assembled etc...
the 6 cylinder versions lasted much longer...
but they all sold well...
the PINTARA/CORSAIR cars jointly designed and sold by Nissan and Ford...
I never heard any bad stories about them either...
I was told a few years ago that if you broke the tail lamp lens on one of those pintaras... it would be written off
as there were no spare parts for them...
Italian cars were very bad for rust... they mustn't have been rustproofed or waxed when sold in australia..
Some of the Alfas were lemons in regard to breaking down and reliability problems..
many cars that were successful in europe weren't good in Australia as Aussies drive too far each year....
and the Euro cars didn't take the excess kilometers kindly..
IMHO.. Most of these cars were Not expensive...
TRABANTs are called lemons, but they sold well... as thats all the East Germans could afford.. and they never rusted..
as they weren't made from metal.... lol
and were easily maintained... ??
they could not be recycled... If burnt they gave off poisonious fumes.... ??
Now... If those italian car makers got together with TRABANT... Cars that didn't rust..
and running gear that went.... Unbeatable... lol
LEE
shaihulud 路
Re the Orbital Engine.
I think that they had a very serious vibration problem that couldn't be solved.
You are right. Not flywheel effect, but gyroscope effect.
grumble 路
68AutoBug wrote:the PINTARA/CORSAIR cars jointly designed and sold by Nissan and Ford...
I never heard any bad stories about them either...
I was told a few years ago that if you broke the tail lamp lens on one of those pintaras... it would be written off
as there were no spare parts for them...
Italian cars were very bad for rust... they mustn't have been rustproofed or waxed when sold in australia..
Some of the Alfas were lemons in regard to breaking down and reliability problems..
The U12 pintara's were actually the new Zealand Bluebird and the local dealers didn't want them.I think the only collaboration on Ford's part was the design of the badges.The lights were made locally by Britax and weren't particularly well sealed as they used to fill with water and then fill the boot.
The Fiats didn't have any rustproofing and prior to the pre delivery service we used to take them to the panel shop to get the rust fixed,this was the days of the 124,124S coupe and 125's . All other cars coming into Australia at that stage were sprayed with a horrible wax that had to be removed by hand.馃ゲ
les
68AutoBug 路
Now I agree that Hillman Imps were sort of lemons...
many people still bought them...
but it wasn't long before they had ALL disappeared...
front suspension was very basic...
so was the rest of the car... lol
I don't know what the weakness was...??
LEE
Bizarre 路
dAVo wrote:If there's a car that's really hard on my eyes it's the Subaru Vortex. God dam they are the ugliest car ever!!
Saw an immaculate one of these today on Parra Rd Auburn 馃槀
Joel 路
i dont know why he'd class them as lemons
yea they're as ugly as sin but ea82t were good motors and they drove as well as any other allegedly sporty 80s coupes
donn 路
Way I see it is the Vortex was way ahead of its' time, had the sliperiest shape of anything on the road at the time, reckon a head wind would have just made it go faster.
68AutoBug 路
grumble wrote:
68AutoBug wrote:the PINTARA/CORSAIR cars jointly designed and sold by Nissan and Ford...
I never heard any bad stories about them either...
I was told a few years ago that if you broke the tail lamp lens on one of those pintaras... it would be written off
as there were no spare parts for them...
The U12 pintara's were actually the new Zealand Bluebird and the local dealers didn't want them.I think the only collaboration on Ford's part was the design of the badges.The lights were made locally by Britax and weren't particularly well sealed as they used to fill with water and then fill the boot.
les
Hi Les,
I believe the Corsair and pintaras lights were different...
and the shapes were definately different..
especially the Nissan Pintara with their weird rear end.. lol
I can only remember the two body shapes...
the Corsair - normall looking car - the Pintara was the odd looking one...
Who made them?? Nissan Australia???
any figures on how many were made...
I've heard worse things about the ford mondeo which was sold here a few years ago...
they were lemons mechanically...
went great for 30,000 kms approx.. then things started to break/wear out....
LEE
Joel 路
Lee the U12 pintaras and UA corsairs were the same car coming out of the nissan factory ford just slapped some different trim and there own badges on to try and differentiate the two. same thing they did with telstars, festivas, lasers etc
your thinking of the hatchback/liftback which was availble in both pintara and corsair again same car just abit of different trim
