Sway Bars?

Hi everyone...


I was just looking for some info regarding sway bars; I'm wondering what size bars you run, brands, sizes, etc, and what your thoughts are.

I'm looking at the sway-a-way items online at the moment, but am thinking that I should do a bit of research before forking out the cash.

Oh... and it's going to be for full on track use 😀

Cheers,
Cam

Cam
big 24mm one on the front, small 19mm one on the rear. Thats what I have found best for my car, regardless of what powerplant was in the back. I tried a 24mm bar on the rear & I couldn't keep the car straight, even on the softest setting.
regards
Jak

Hi Jak,

Thanks for that. It's going to be on an Balljoint/IRS car, should I go a bit smaller on the front than 24 for a balljoint car?
Cheers,
Cam

I don't know if you've looked at this before but it gives some good set-ups
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles/handling.htm

will you be using a quaife or ZF diff ?

what torsion bars will you be running ?

will the car be light weight or full weight ?

will you have a full cage to tie it all together ?

what shocks?

all the above will change the handling characteristics of the car and will determine what bars you should go for.

Craig, the car will be stripped (of interior) yet run all glass and steel panels. So far I have koni reds for all for corners, squareback torsion bars for the rear and camber eccentric adjusters for the front.
Cage & LSD will follow, right now we just want to get the suspension sorted so as we can move one step closer to being on track.

U should ask CT what he has on his car, sounds very similar & his setup is perfect. It can do all sorts of motorsport quite easily
jak

Sounds like a good idea, CT seems to do some decent road miles by the looks of it too 😎

I've got the Whiteline adjustable race bars on my BJ/IRS bug.... from memory they're BWF8XZ front and BWR1XZ for the rear, and I think are 24mm and 28mm respectively.

VERY happy with them... the adjustability lets you tune to your driving style/liking.

Jak Rizzo wrote:U should ask CT what he has on his car, sounds very similar & his setup is perfect. It can do all sorts of motorsport quite easily
jak

yeah 2nd that, CT would be happy to help......plus give you the heads up on some good tyres to run.

Thanks guys... I just sent off an order enquiry with whiteline, they seem reasonably priced & local(ish).

Yep, I intend to pick CT's brain about tires - the GTi will be up for a set in the not too distant future as well *eek*

Turns out that Whiteline are no longer doing the XZ sway bars, the search goes on.
Whilst I'm here; how readily available are used LSD's?

Cam, this is who you want

www.selbys.com.au

they make them and even use the original numbers (i think). i just got a 2inch narrowed off them. They still use the whiteline 'fittings' but they make the bar itself.

They were the cheapest and other Veedub stores seemed to buy from them at the same price as average Joe and then add their healthy margin.

Cam wrote:Whilst I'm here; how readily available are used LSD's?

ha!.... not very, but try on "the samba"

Hi Cam,

Find a solid starting point with:
- Stock spec 4 wheel alignment.
- Get front and rear track the same. Front may need spacers or something.
- Level suspension stance.
- Koni reds and type 3 rear spings are a good start. All suspension components hould be new or at least serviceable.
- A set of caster shims behind the lower front beam.
- Good R-spec tyres. If Yokohama aim for 32 hot on all corners after a good run. Start at 30 and bleed back to 32 the moment you get off the track. Then measure the temps the tyres cool too. Note that will be different for each track. All tyres should increase in pressure at least 4 psi and as much as 10 psi if the suspension is working properly and if you're driving hard enough.

Take the car to a sprint and see what it does first.

Then play with one thing at a time to get the car to handle how you want.

You can play with no cost stuff first like suspension height and wheel alignment.

Then borrow some swaybars. You can set the car up to be a go-kart like a hillclimb car or a pussy cat like my car. Just see what it does first.

IRS BJ pans have great suspension geometry. I don't think you need to do much.

That's just what I think is the easiest way to go. I buggered up by buying all the good shit and then taking it off because it wasn't necessary for my style of driving.

I hope that ramble helps.

CYA CT

CT if u are inside on the computer, who the hell is out the front looking after the tyre stand?.

U didnt' leave the rubber chicken in charge again did u!!?

Jak

you dont want a go kart style of a car unless you're running circuits..................if you're running hillclimbs or tarmac rally stuff then you need suspension movement👍

no track is the same....you will need adjustments in your setups😎

sorry to intrude, but i have started racing,autokhanas,circuit, whatever realy.

so why do you set up the car different from a hillclimb to a circuit etc. and what dictates why you need suspension travel on a hillclimb race to a circuit race ??

Thanks CT, that info is a big help, what are you running for sway bars at the moment?


Not intruding at all Chris, the more discussion we get on such topics the better it is for everyone.
Circuits generally tend to have much higher speed corners with much more tarmac width to play with (especially on corner exit) ideally if you're exiting a high speed left hander (for example) you want to be on the throttle from the apex and having the car mildly understeer by the time you're at the corner exit ripple strip/start of the straight. Having a very stiff car set-up helps with this because you eliminate body roll (bleeding obvious) and in turn stops the suspension reaching the bottom of it's travel, which would cause the balance of the car to be upset (by hitting a bump stop and rebounding off a nicely loaded up tire) and forcing you to make adjustments mid turn. Circuits tend to be far smoother than hillclimbs and/or tarmac rallies (which can often be on public roads) so dips, ruts & pot holes are not uncommon (from what I've seen anyway), with such events you want a much smoother and compliant suspension set-up that can handle such surfaces with a minimum of suspension crashing and keeping the tires in contact with the road as often as possible. I would assume the hillclimbers would probably need a far more 'turn in' set-up on their cars due to their corners being a lot tighter.
I hope that makes some sort of sense, there are a lot of guys on here with far more experience than me who could no doubt enlighten you or tell me I'm totally wrong 😀

Front sway bar is 16mm stock type.

I haven't run a rear bar in the past 2 events.

No rear bar gives more confidence for entering corners fast without oversteer.

The rear bar helps get the nose to the apex earlier so you can get on the gas earlier. But you need to be alittle more cautions because it's taily at the limit.

I need to a back to back comparison against the clock to find out which is quicker.

It's important to note that CBB welded drop spindles are a feature of my car which makes it shift weight to the front and turn-in so well. Note CB performance ones were no good. Rod Penrose has Chromoly ones if others want to go down this path. I'm not sure they're legal in improved production.

There are a million different ways to approach car set-up. This is just mine.

CT

cheers for that info cam. i found my car understeared when doing the autokhanas but felt pretty nuetral on the circuit.

im still running a swinga with chromoly dropped spindles from rod,16mm front bar "non adjustable",adjusters,koni reds all round,camber compensator, adj spring plates,6&7 inch fuch's with 185/55 &205/50 khumo ecsta medium compunds,stock discs and type 3 drums and still the single circuit master,ha ha....

im yet to try a rear bar or bigger torsion bars...

chris fabian wrote:sorry to intrude, but i have started racing,autokhanas,circuit, whatever realy.

so why do you set up the car different from a hillclimb to a circuit etc. and what dictates why you need suspension travel on a hillclimb race to a circuit race ??

Hillclimbs are often held on 'real' roads, complete with bumps. You need suspension travel so the car isn't hammered

bout time you went to a limo diff CT..........then oversteer can be your new best friend 👍

i spotted in one of S.Carters videos how much your car was relying on the front for grip.

glad you mentioned the findings on the drop spindles, was hoping for that........too flexy🙅

chris fabian wrote:cheers for that info cam. i found my car understeared when doing the autokhanas but felt pretty nuetral on the circuit.

im still running a swinga with chromoly dropped spindles from rod,16mm front bar "non adjustable",adjusters,koni reds all round,camber compensator, adj spring plates,6&7 inch fuch's with 185/55 &205/50 khumo ecsta medium compunds,stock discs and type 3 drums and still the single circuit master,ha ha....

im yet to try a rear bar or bigger torsion bars...

i'd go to 195/55 on the front to rid some of that understeer.......i never had any success reducing push till i went beyond the 185's........for me i'd do away with the camber compensator and have a "proper" sway bar out back too. works for me with link pin/ swinger

do you have the car rake with the nose up, or at least level?, i have played with this a lot and it makes a hell of a difference with the swing axle rear

don't forget to have a play with the adjustability of the konis.

hey damo,the stance is level,what did you find was best.

my front tracks is about 30mm narrower then the rear so im getting some spaces for the front to bring it out a lil.

when the tyres are worn out "6 months propably" ill will be looking for some cheap cookies then get some nice race rubber and wider fronts like you said.

as for the rear bar, what size do you think??

i found it hard to tell the difference by hand when i was playing with the adjustment on the konis.

yeah , actually an inch up on the nose felt best for me

i use 22mm rear with 18 front (with standard still on).......

i don't mind things harsh and hard, so i wound the shocks up to 3/4 of their adjustment.........put a line with texta accross the two halves..........work out how many rotations they go from soft to hard..............then starting back at the line again, wind em up 3 parts of way.

CT is a fan of using all 6 inch wheels to keep the rear track narrower..........so much to try before you go to spacers. a little less pressure in the front works well.....say 4psi less than the rear

not sure if it's relevant, but I'm using an 18mm rear bar on my buggy with no bar on the front and wagon torsion bars out back even with a heavy subaru in it. I found that on the dirt it offers me more predictable drift and less understeer with little weight in the front. and like Jak said, I wouldn't want any thicker bar on the back on the road otherwise you end up with BULK wheelspin through corners.

sander that link was absolutely awesome. thanks heaps, best in debt intro into all ova tuning/suspension handlin.

I wouldn't be too concerned about an LSD if u funds don't allow. My last track day at Wakefield, I had very very little wheelspin out of corners due to the tyres. I suppose some wouldn't class it as very entertaining LOL but I don't have an LSD. With street tyres on it's on for young & old, but with soft compound, not medium compound, it totally transforms how the car handles.
regards
Jak

Here,s a few of my experiences with car set up,

Raced for many years with an open diff and got the car to point where i felt comfortable with the sway bar and shock set up.
Rear shocks quiet firm, rear sway bar firm also, front rake a little nose down, front shocks probably softer than most would prefer.
I found a little understeer out of slow corners and neutral to gentle oversteer around fast corners.

Raced at Buladelah hillclimb twice with open diff,very fast track with long sweeping bends. What was interesting was the last corner was fast and tight with a speed trap set up over the finish line. The fastest time i ever clocked was 136kph on a record breaking run. I can remember trying real hard and thinking thats about as fast as i can go.

The next outing at Buladelah i had installed a ZF limo i purchased from Bruce Tweddle in Canada.My very first run, always a slow have a feel run i clocked 140kph over the finish line.
I could definatly feel the limo working even on a fast corner let alone a slow power out corner which will induce rear wheel spin.

My car set up now is still a work in progress around the fact that a limo changes everything. At Raymond Terrace Ben Durie was .4 - .5 sec quicker to the first split than me, he had a limo.
They make a HUGE difference to your cars performance and set up.

Do your car set up once, get the limo first, then work from there. Just another opinion hope this helps with your thought process. Good luck.

Cheers Col

what are the differences between this limo diff "never heard of before" and just a super diff ??

Super diff has four little cogs inside it for more strength, but no 'limited slip' mechanism

was hoping Colin would chime in n this one having pushed the limits with open diff, then going to limo

thanx Colin

What boost were you running at Wakefield Jak??.......enough to make 200 or 250 HP

ZF limo.......

So Colin what size bars do you run with the limited slip and how much did you change the firmness and softness of shocks/bars from your open diff setup?
Great discussion guys

I went from 18mm front and 16mm rear (K mac bars) with an open diff.........to 22 front and 28 rear (selby adjustable) when i went to a quaife.

thnx Craig

As i said it,s still a work in progress, like most cars in motorsport you never really stop trying to improve your car because when you do you get left behind.

Have done loads of research and data collecting and have started purchasing a few items, have a set of sway away torsion bars coming.Hope to negate the huge squat and understeer the car gets when powering out of slow corners then a new set of tyres are next.

Will run my Whiteline adjustable rear bar as usale but instead of a stiff setting i will go to a more softer setting as hopfully the bigger bars will stop the front from lifting.For the front i am going to try the standard vw bar. Yep thats right, not a typo i prefer a softer front setting than other people hence i run a Superbug i find i can tune the front to work the tyres to there max easier.

Loads of other ideas in my head including softening the rear shocks to transfer weight to front of car to also negate understeer on slow tracks. But on fast ones will stiffen up shocks but soften rear bar more to catch oversteer.

It,s all a big game of try and learn, listen and ask. Thers lots of opinions to listen to but in the end make your own mind up. Don,t rush into anything.

Reading this post and adding a few comments has reminded me it,s June, hell i better get cracking i,ve got lots of things to do before 2010 season.

Cheers Col

how much are the limited slip diffs??

$1400........$2000.......then fittment🙅

and thanx Craig (Mr OVERSTEER)

Yes the Quaife will not get you much change out $2K and then it needs to be put in the box.
You ran a BJ front end Craig didn't you?

yeah Craig is BJ/IRS

f@rk me, 2 grand....

Oh yeah, have emailed selby's and there making me a 22mm front adjustable narrowed swaybar finally the search is over, thank god.

chris fabian wrote:f@rk me, 2 grand....

you get what you pay for my friend. quaife's are brand new and next to unbreakable. ZFs on the other hand, are all second hand now and like all clutch type limos, they wear out.

interesting sidenote. Peloquin makes an 091 torsen style centre that is stronger yet cheaper than the Quaife. They were talking about making a type1 torsen style centre too. keep your eye out for that I reckon.

http://www.peloquins.com/products_new.html

66deluxe wrote:Oh yeah, have emailed selby's and there making me a 22mm front adjustable narrowed swaybar finally the search is over, thank god.

Great news..........how much and how much narrower?

I need one for the ragtop, as it doesn't have any !!!

hellbugged wrote:and thanx Craig (Mr OVERSTEER)

yeah more fun that way !!!!................except when it puts you sideways into walls at high speeds !😂

Craig Torrens wrote:

66deluxe wrote:Oh yeah, have emailed selby's and there making me a 22mm front adjustable narrowed swaybar finally the search is over, thank god.

Great news..........how much and how much narrower?

I need one for the ragtop, as it doesn't have any !!!

Craig, it's $300 and narrowed 50mm.