Hey there, I just have a few questions about cases today!
Later in the year I will be building a 1776, which I have decided I will run with Kadrons and a thunderbird hotdog extractor system. Its a lowish budget build and I just have a few questions.
Would I be able to use a stock (1600) case to achieve any sort of decent power? ( I mean... like less than Daimo's 98HP... but hopeing for about 80HP?)
Who would be the best/closest/most affordable option in the Brisbane/GC area to machine a case?
How much should I be paying for a decent used 1600 case (if i can use it..)?
As another thought, given the setup I want to run (kads and thunderbird zorst) Any idea's of rough power figures I would be looking at. This will be a daily car for a long time yet.
Thanks for advice, tips and ideas! 馃檪
Jason
Craig Torrens 路
Standard case will be fine.
Used cases are also fine as long as you have it checked for cracks.
Pobjoy would be your best option for having all the machining done to the case............and would only cost about $20 via Aust post to send it to him.
To bore and face cases for the larger barrels is $122 and to linebore is $99.......done by the best machinist you will find.
A GOOD secondhand case is probably aroung $150...................so for around $400 you will have a case ready to build your 1776 馃槑
Bizarre 路
Machine work??
Cant go wrong with what Craig has said.
Making sure the thrust bearing isnt too shagged is one on the main things to look for / get checked
80HP at the wheels is a fair ask
I remember one of the first dyno days and CT got 73HP from his 1916 and it was a long haul to get it to 99
My 1776 got 62 or something like that
That said - a high 60's low 70HP motor is nothing to sneeze at.
What heads and cam are you looking at??
colonel mustard 路
Well.. The way I figure it, I should be able to double what my 1600tp puts out right? I dont know what work has been done on it in the last 36 years... But not alot to my knowledge. Its defs still a 1600, and still running the 34pict3 (which still runs badly with the exhaust I have).
Which leads me to this - the thunderbird runs really well on my mechanics (trev luckhurst) 1915 with IDF's, but He raves about kadrons for simple tuning and for being good on fuel. Both great for me. So given that they can be jetted to pretty much anything, and knowing that Stan Pobjoy puts them on 1915's, I decided that a 1776 was a good choice for me.
Id really like to push as much power out of it as possible but not go overboard as its a very tight tight low small... budget. Its also going to stay a daily driver. So, cold(ish) {its only QLD weather and in a garage} startups are on the books. Being that its a daily, it doesn need to rev to 8000rpm, which is why it will be a standard german crank and stock rods. balanced and machined, ect. In relation to cam, Im not sure, But I'm told w100 is bettter than stock but w110 may be a bit rough and lumpy downlow for daily driving. One thing that is really important is that taking off power.. which my car lacks cuurrently. So suggestions for cams would be awesome.
I will go for the standard case and have it machined and cleaned up, also looking for suggestions as to P/B's but probably just mahle's from Classicveedub, unless there is a better option.
Heads - I haven't really thought about yet.
Do you think there is any chance of actually getting 80hp out of an engine like this? (a friend runs a similar setup and he gets easily double the output of my engine....)
thanks for all the suggestions!
cnfabo 路
you will have more of a chance of getting closer to 80hp with 94 jugs then 90.5's. but if your set with a 1776 go for it. wont cost extra to machine for 94 though...
check what prices rod is selling for before purchasing from others, i found he was cheapest by a fair bit, so if your talking budget , give him a shot..... good luck bro....
Craig Torrens 路
you will be able to get 80hp with no probs from a 1776.
1776 producing 80hp = 1916 producing 86hp...............and there is a truck load of 1916's producing over 100hp as reliable daily drivers.
Like Barry said........you will be surprised at what 70-80hp will feel like in a beetle 馃憤
BUT....if you don't have the P&B's yet why dont you just go with the 94's and go 1916 ?
colonel mustard 路
Cheers Chris. Rod has 1915 shortblocks for just under 4k.
I'm Hoping to get all my main engine parts for under $2500... Than add labour (which will be cheap for me 馃檪 )
all i need other than the main stuff, is another alternator and disi. that will keep my 1600 in running order. 馃檪
really appreiciating the ideas and comments people, the main questions I have now are...
What cam would you go for..
If i went for 1600 heads machined, would I need to go for larger valves.... (some say no, would love your thoughts ...)
cheers
jedidan 路
hey jason, good luck with this - it sounds like a good project. Vw motors are so easy to work with (most times !), even if u did build
something with standard heads, they can be changed later on. So if u have a limited budget, work the best u can with that
(i know what its like building budget motors) - add to the engine as u get additional funds. Just make sure you concentrate on getting
the 'bottom' end to the best spec possible, so u never have to split the case or change P&B. You'll find you will pull the engine a few times
in its life anyway, so there will be plenty opportunities to mod on the go !
There are plenty of us around to give u a hand too if ur ever stuck !
cheers
Dan
dangerous 路
I will agree that there is nothing wrong with the factory Magnesium case.
Finding a good one in used condition can be difficult though.
You wont find a cheaper machining job for a case than what stan offers,
unless it has no radii in the corners,
no steps in the bore for the cylinder and piston locations,
and the cases savers are just mowed off with the deck job.
I would charge twice that to bore and deck a case.
I have not seen or measured Stans work lately so cant say he is the best.
..But he does have a lot of engines out there, which it a pretty fair reputation.
dangerous 路
colonel mustard wrote:Heads - I haven't really thought about yet.
When ever you have a goal of a hp figure
that is substantially more than the original,
the intake system should be the FIRST thing you plan.
Stock heads wont reach that goal unless you over cam the engine.(= rough idle wih Kads when no balance tubes)
Despite Daimos engine having lots of quality parts,
the primary area of power gains came from meticulous homework on the cylinder head and intake system.
Being your daily driver first priority should be purchases of the best parts for reliability.
Then...If there is any room left in your budget, then the cylinder head should be your first port of call to acheive a specific HP goal.
vw54 路
before you go planning the engine make sure you have a good case with dual relief vlaves and large oil galleries
no use trying to build an HP engine using an older style case
colonel mustard 路
Dave, You are a world of VW knowledge!
Sorry, but can you explain what you mean by over cam-ing the engine? Do you mean just because of the intake? (my thought was there is no poinnt going for a w110 with DRLA's, unless I go bigger heads... its all in the combo, right?)
You said reliable parts are first priority, and I agree. Any reconmendations? Yes, its a tight budget, but I don't really want anything to go wrong... a pull down isn't really what I want.
ok.... so what particular year/model number case am I looking for??
So far my idea's are:
Lightened Flywheel, 8 dowel - Got it already.
Clutch - Standard kit - Got it already, might need a better kit.
Crank - balanced German crank - $(from my tech)
Rods - Standard, balanced etc - $(from my tech)
Rockers - standard, rocker foot - $(from my tech)
Cam - Engle W100 - $150ish (classicveedub)
P/B - Mahle 90.5x69 - $...
Case - Standard 1600 -, machined by Stan Pobjoy - $400 (inc case) 'Lifters - suggestions? I was thinking the scat lightwieght or lift-a-lobe ones look sweet. Probably getting them from classicveedub.
Heads - standard 1600 machined for 90.5 barrels by stand pobjoy ($110 for machining)
Intake - Kadrons (paying too much apparently.)
Exhaust - Thunderbird with hotdog muffler - got it
disi - 009 with electronic - got it mini sump - got it (just have to extend the pickup tube when its out. (should I braze it on or just use the pipe clamp?)
maxi pump (with the filter on front as I will take the strainer out because of the mini sump) $.. (classicveedub)
Also just running a normal breather box, from the top of the air cleaner and from the alternator stand. standard fuel pump (alternator style).
"Los Banditos Dual Port Heads are genuine VW and loaded with go fast features that your engine needs. 14mm long reach spark plug threads, Racing Valve Guides, and Valve Seats, HiTec SUPERGRIP S/S Single Groove 21-4N Valves with Stelite tips, Hi-Rev Valve Springs, Chromoly Retainers, and Billet Steel Carbon Nitreated 7 Degree Valve Locks are installed in every Los Banditos Cylinder Head. Available in 40 x 35.5mm with Single or Dual Hi-Rev Valve Springs. Uses 14mm Spark Plugs."
Craig Torrens 路
Los Banditos heads are based on 043 vw heads......you wont be able to get the compression ratio right for a 1776 as they dont have enough "meat" in the casting to allow you to decrease the size of the combustion chamber.
if you're only using a w100 cam then you may as well stay with standard heads IMO.
cb john 路
What kind of Hp are you after?
colonel mustard 路
How much would machining of a set of heads be to match? I'm guessing it would be fairly easy to find some? I think Classic have new ones, but they are like $250 each
colonel mustard 路
cb john wrote:What kind of Hp are you after?
Hopefully 80hp...... maybe. But Im just after more power than the 1600 (double would be great!!) and reliabilty, as its a daily!
cb john 路
Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....
colonel mustard 路
cb john wrote:Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....
So I could argue, that I should be easily able to get 80hp with kadrons (which IMO are much better carbs) and that extra capacity and cam. yes?
cb john 路
colonel mustard wrote:
cb john wrote:Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....
So I could argue, that I should be easily able to get 80hp with kadrons (which IMO are much better carbs) and that extra capacity and cam. yes?
You do not have to argue, the fact of 1776 plus Kadrons / I do not share your opinion about them / is already giving you an increase in power beyond 67 horses
the only question is , who is going to put this together....
and the last say will have Mr.Dyno...
Joel 路
colonel mustard wrote:So I could argue, that I should be easily able to get 80hp with kadrons (which IMO are much better carbs) and that extra capacity and cam. yes?
wait till you've had the pleasure of tuning the mongrel things
cb john 路
馃憤
colonel mustard 路
ha. I won't be.... haha. My mechanic raves about them, so he can set them up, jet them and tune them. He loves them, so he can teach me about them! I will be getting a different linkage however, I don't fancy one side coming off, which i hear can happen easily. the scat linkage will defs be an improvement.
So what would you suggest rather than the kadrons. I really dislike the 34pict3. I guess I would go for a 4 barrel if there was something suitable. Im really looking for that initial responce that the 34pict doesnt offer me at all.
Craig Torrens 路
I reckon i could train a monkey to tune Kadrons.......they are piss easy.馃憤
re the linkage, you can get "race" clips for the ball and socket ends.......you will NEVER have the linkage come off while driving.
cb john 路
I do not push any brand on you...in Europe there are much more stringent laws, so what they do ? they build engines as we do, any cc you want and feed them with the centre mount stock looking carbie.And you can believe me , they do perform...so my advice to you is ...if you intend to use it as a daily drive, do not go much out of the stock way...in the same time you can achieve it with much more dollars spent ..馃槀
colonel mustard 路
Ah, cool Craig... My mate has his jump off occasionally, especially on a decent take off, he gets a bit of wheel tramp and boom... running on one side only..
Also, I asked this before, but wasn't too clean, any idea how much Stan charges to machine heads??
Thanks for all the tips guys... Iv learnt heaps already and have a few ideas now 馃檪
Craig Torrens 路
To machine a pair of heads for 90.5 is $110.馃憤
chunks54 路
I would go for 94's every day of the week. Don't go too mild, you'll just end up regretting it! Theres nothing unstreetable about a well built larger displacement engine....
I've had my hands on a pair of those los banditos heads btw and they seem pretty good for the cash - I've not used them myself mind. They can be cut for decent CR, I have an engine builder friend who has used them in a heap of bus engine builds. They would benefit from some porting though. I would put a webcam 118 in there and set the CR to about 8.5:1, port the Los Banditos heads and go for it, it will be a nice enough driver to get along with but have the balls to back up its exhaust note.
colonel mustard 路
Hey Chunks.... Can you give me a link for Webcam info?? (no jokes...)
Thanks Craig, very useful info there 馃檪
dangerous 路
cb john wrote:Most of you will argue, but we are getting 67 Hp at the Rear Wheels out of stock standard 1600...no fancy cams and super heads and other goodies...just well and I mean WELL selected stock parts and very careful assembly...and that is with 34 PICT 3 and 29 mm restrictor....
A formula Vee engine is NOT a stock standard engine,
and should not be used a guideline (or comparison) for a reliable street engine.
Other than exhaust and camshaft being non standrd,
the valvetrain geopmetry that is used to acheive extra lift is very hard on the valve train in the wear area.
But yes, with the right cylinder head part number,
and carefull assembly, I dont doubt those number at all.
I would say that 67hp is a reasonable number to acheive with a stock non ported,(but quality valve job) head in the right circumstances.
Higher numbers are possible with better intake system,(ie more flow) and optimised cam profile.
Better carb and manifold can make stock head flow more.
If you are ONLY after a HP number,
high compression and large cam will move that number up quite easily (within reason),
but the larger duration can make the engine run poorly at low rpm, and be very fuel-inefficient at low rpm.(worse than stock)....especialy with a shared venturi like the Kads.
But anything can be made to work.
Like any engine,
a combination of parts needs to match your goal.
My personal choice with any cylinder head you choose, would be some basic head and chamber work,
since most large valve heads with no hand work can flow less air than stock valves due to the shrouding of the valve in the chamber.
Even stock heads can benefit from a bit of time in those areas.
There are so many ways to acheive your particular goal,
but CB John is correct,
Carefull assembly with attention to detail will be the key to assembling what ever parts you choose.
Talk to your engine builder and machinist about what characteristics YOU want,
and not what people tell you that you need to win a dyno contest.
you might as well use a STOCK VW cam no bumps on that one
BiX 路
The W100, is pretty close to stock, but I found it gave a nice spread of torque.
Old Hutcho 路
Brother.
I am lucky enough to have a 1776 (single carb, pretty much a stocker with bigger Los Banditos Heads) and a 1916 (twin kad, engle 110 cam and lost banditos heads) and neither are firebreathers. But both are excellent street cruise engines with loads of torque and will pull like a train all day at 100 kph. So. Which way do you go. I can tell you that the yanks have put nearly 50 years development into both these size engines, so there is something to be said for both. My two bobs worth.?? For a stockish car go the 1776, use the Los Banditos heads heads and dual kads. Its not stressed and it wont get hot so it will last a long time. And unless you are into blowing the ricers off at the lights, nobody is going to leave you behind. Whichever way you go mate, relax. Build the engine you want and learn to love it.馃槏
Old Hutcho
cb john 路
A formula Vee engine is NOT a stock standard engine,
and should not be used a guideline (or comparison) for a reliable street engine.
Other than exhaust and camshaft being non standrd,
the valvetrain geopmetry that is used to acheive extra lift is very hard on the valve train in the wear area.
Tis is not absolutely correct, the camshaft is Stock, the only difference is not running the muffler and generator / worth a few horses /
Max. allowed lift on intake is 9.6 mm and exhaust 9.2...
I really do not see the reason why this does not qualify as the stock engine.
Not to say, that aftermarket high lift cams and dual valve springs put a lot more strain on the valve train than Vee will ever do...
dangerous 路
Just to clarify,
the formula vee engines use a "control cam" ground by Wade.
The stock cams I have measured only have between .300" and at best .330" lift.
So 9.2mm(.362") and 9.6mm(.378") is more than stock.
Very similar lift to the W100 and C25 profiles.
I can not recall the duration of the VEE "control" cam.,
but will say that most are installed very retarded
to move the torque and HP peaks well above the stock rpm location.
The Vees use a pushrod extension(or longer pushrods),
and set the geometry so that the adjuster tip is right on the edge.
This wears very fast.
As do the valve guides with the poor geometry.
,
You may argue that this is stock, but I will not agree so I guess we can agree to disagree.
You could say:
"it is a stock engine with aftermarket cam, custom exhaust, aftermarket
air cleaner, pushrods/mods, lightened components, extra sump capacity, loose clearances, performance valve job"
Heavier than stock valve springs do draw a very small amount of extra HP,
but if geometry is correct,they can actually extend the life of the valve train by providing better CONTROL
and there is no need to go to a dual spring in a lot of cases.
Correct geometry on all but the most radical RACE cam and rocker set ups
will require less adjutmsent and get less valvegude and seat wear than most vee engines..."per Mile".
Again everyone is welcome to disagree....that is what a forum is.
Good to see that Hutcho has tried something similar to what you are after Jason.
I think you will be very happy once you get it on the road.
You can always upgrade the heads at a future time.
Make sure you get those carbs jetted correctly,
and fit balance tubes to ALL the runners to smooth out the idle
colonel mustard 路
Hey Dave, What do you think about these 'Los Banditios' heads... They seem like a good option to me considering the cost of machining is $110 a pair
But is there any reason why they won't be a good match??
Thanks for all your tips btw, its great 馃檪
*edit* - i meant for the pair.
dangerous 路
The "features" they have seem good for the price,
but i have no hands on experience with them.
I would not consider putting them on the engine without checking them fully
and doing some basic blending and deburring of the ports and chambers.
Plus check spring shimming and pressures.
But that advice goes for ANY cylinder head you choose.
cb john 路
You may argue that this is stock, but I will not agree so I guess we can agree to disagree.
I agree to disagree...
chunks54 路
Hey mustard here's a link to webcam website - I have other links if you're interested hahaha... lets not go there! 馃
Engle have gone bump (cam pun intended!) so other manufacturers may be the better option anyway.
The extra cc's of a 1776 or a 1915 will rock if you're used to a standard whatever you do, but I GUARANTEE that within a few weeks you'll want MORE MORE MORE 馃槀
I started with a velocity stack, adjustable main jet and a pounded-bigger single port manifold (don't ask!).... the slope is VERY slippery....
Good luck mate.
colonel mustard 路
dangerous wrote:The "features" they have seem good for the price,
but i have no hands on experience with them.
I would not consider putting them on the engine without checking them fully
and doing some basic blending and deburring of the ports and chambers.
Plus check spring shimming and pressures.
But that advice goes for ANY cylinder head you choose.
Thats cause your Dave butler! Good advice, thanks 馃檪
Took my mates 1776 for a drive yesterday (by myself.. hahaha, its more fun when they aren' there..) and it has a fair bit of guts. But Im just thinking about how much it actually is. About 2 months ago I dove Izac's squareback with 36 dell's on a 1600, and honestly, it had nearly as much power. so my thoughts are, how much more guts am I going to get out of my 1600 with the twin kadrons, and the better exhaust. A fair bit? yes (and It wont sound like a truck). My next thought is, how much more fuel efficient are kadrons than DRLA's?? and How much more power Could I get from a 1776 (like my mates) from DRLA's??? Yes, again all combo questions, but whats stupping me from wringing the 1600's neck (yes I know i could blow it...) before stepping up to the 1776??
haha. I know im back at the start, but, thoughts?
fish26 路
If you gonna run the 1600 with Kads, drive it hard because you will need to get used to half throttle on a 1776, 69cw, 9.0cr, 86b, 1.4, good hand ported heads, 45 dells, 1 5/8 merged, good full flow oiling and dynamic balancing on all rotating parts, along with all the other goodies. If you want HP build it right, build it once, on the ragged edge and then tone it down for the street.
So many street engines out there built half assed and way too tame. IMO 馃槈
Craig Torrens 路
fish26 wrote:So many street engines out there built half assed and way too tame. IMO 馃槈
yeah I agree with you on this...........I have a 132hp 1916 in the ragtop and its fine on the street.
Screw as much out of them i say! 馃槀
trickysimon 路
Awww 馃槩
colonel mustard 路
Simon, your setup is going to be sweet. Jealous. It will rock! (untill you want more power and go for IDF's then blow it apart and want to go biggger bigger biggggger!!)
So pretty much... You have probs seen my for sale threads (go buy some stuff!!) - the reason for this is that I'm going to just keep on plodding with the 1600 and try and get the setup the way I want it. (for the 1776 swap... in the future..)
So for anything to happen engine/exhaust wise in my car, i have to have some rear body damage fixed.
So, while the engine is out, Machine flywheel and change gearbox mounts.
Install new clutch. Install maxi oil pump (with the filter, as above post)
Install Extended sump. Breather box. (looking at the CSP type from Classic....) Powder coat tinware (get a 36hp style fan shroud!)
Install kadrons! (from Rod P - scat linkage!!) new coil. chrome fire wall. Exhaust. bolt it together and hope its go go go!
its going to cost a bit... but all fun stuff. 馃檪
matberry 路
Craig Torrens wrote:
fish26 wrote:So many street engines out there built half assed and way too tame. IMO 馃槈
yeah I agree with you on this...........I have a 132hp 1916 in the ragtop and its fine on the street.
Screw as much out of them I say! 馃槀
Have to agree here
Too easy to have a mismatched piece of crap as so many a/c vw engines seem to be built this way. Not to mention many of the home AND pro built jobs I've seen that can't even set up the nice hipo parts you talk of.
With the good fuel we have now (98) and cheap parts available, go wild when you finally decide on a combo :-)
fish26 路
Matt, you on the money re: good fuel and cheap parts, I'm thinking of building a street 1776 with some nice welded heads, FK87 cam, 12:1cr, 48IDF, running on E85.
Just gotta find a good box, Berg 5 is out of my price range. Maybe have to make a call to Mr Danger.
