Philosophical question about Subaru conversions

This isn’t a criticism of people who have converted because I’m very tempted to do so, but my head and heart are in disagreement.

At the risk of over thinking things this is where I’m at.

I have a 74 L Bug, which currently has the stock 1600, and I’m madly saving with the aim of one day making it a really nice daily driver (i.e. very strong/fast engine) that I can also use in club events etc. At present I drive it a couple of days a week.

In my head there’s no argument, a EJ20T would be cheaper than a strong air cooled, more powerful, more reliable, more economical, quieter etc etc, and I should do the conversion, but my heart struggles with the idea.

To my heart the aircooled flat four is intrinsic to what makes the car a VW. Despite the fact that the Subaru engine is essentially a modern interpretation of it, it still is fundamentally different. I can’t get past the fact that the aircooled engine is not just the heart of the car, but the soul as well.

The question I keep asking myself is: If I want to put a EJ20T in the bug, why not just buy an old WRX, why put it in the bug?

My question for those with a engine conversion is: What still makes it a VW for you, rather than a Subaru/whatever?

Look forward to your thoughts!
🙂

Hi

I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make 60 or 70 hp.

If you fit a WRX motor and do a lot of the work yourself you spend much less than this and easily have twice the hp.

My old yellow 1302 had a water-cooled Kombi motor in it, when I sold it I converted the car back to air-cooled without any dramas.

Steve

I see it no different to the Hot Rods or 4wd's that transplant engines.... You love the car, but want it more modern.

I agree with you. it is likely for it to be cheaper to go EJ.... but aircooled keeps it orignial. in the end, its your car and no one can tell you what to do with it. 🙂 i like the idea of 1915's its enough for me...

see what 11CAB said 👍

retrotech-according to street machine mag in our own way, seen old holdens with LS1s etc in them? 240z's with sr20's Rb26s etc?

that said im also twisted enough to like the idea of a k20a (honda integra type r) into a 60's mini 😁 < alternatively check out awdsupermini on youtube haha

todays mechanical refinement in yesterdays style 🙂

I feel your pain. I have gone through what you are going through now and still haven't finally decided on a solution. In the end, it is up to you to decide what makes it a vw or not. I know it would be more expensive to get a hot vw motor but at the same time, I don't believe it is as cheap as people make out to fit a subi in. By the time you get it engineered and pay for all the little changes you make with wiring/plumbing/fuel injection stuff, it all adds up. What you get though is smooth modern reliable performance though. My preference would probably be T4 power instead of EJ22 or if you want big power, fit a subi turbo.

Yogie

If only vw went back to a boxer of some kind.

i wouldn't question a conversion if they had a vw badge stamped into a block of a modern, efi, and at least 120+ hp DOHC motor.

But all this east west inline 4 buisness just won't fit as nicely in the decklid, despite those gti golf motors being quite impressive.

In honesty, i'm keen on subaru, but worry about criticism. Not that i care what people say, but sure you make it to have go to have fun, but its also a social statement / show off sesh! Putting on a show is half the fun.

its hard 🙁 minds all over the place.

Yogie wrote:I know it would be more expensive to get a hot vw motor but at the same time, I don't believe it is as cheap as people make out to fit a subi in. By the time you get it engineered and pay for all the little changes you make with wiring/plumbing/fuel injection stuff, it all adds up. What you get though is smooth modern reliable performance though.

thats exactly the reason im doing my thread so people can see exactly whats involved and im keeping track of all the costs even down to silly little $4 bolts or grommets.

$10k-$15k if you get a workshop to do the conversion.

Then factor in $5k for a gearbox and around $1k-$2k for brakes..............then uprated suspension mods of around $1k.

Don't get suckered in by people saying its a "cheap" conversion you can do for $800 😉

Answer to your question....buy an old WRX. 😎

I'm with craig, don't be sucked in by the "cheap" tag.

however, if you want a real handling, club car you'll spend that money anyway jap engine or aircooled motor.

other thing worth saying is this. Subaru just took the VW engine, fixed all the weak bits and put proper 20century heads on it. just remember, the Ej20T won the WRC more than once. Anything that good is quite an engine. The SR20DET can't boast that.

Thanks for the various comments guys. I'm trying to justify converting the bug by saying that when I buy a Ghia to have as another car in the garage after the bug is completed, I can have that as a nice aircooled cruiser. Just as well my timeframe for completion on both is 17 years 😀

I'm under no illusion that conversion would cheap, especially as most work would have to be done by professionals given my lack of skill and knowledge. But... the brakes, suspension and gearbox are all in line for upgrading whichever path I take, so those costs for all intents and purposes equal out.

Aircooled motor would also be 2 litres or more, EFI and possibly forced induction, so all of those things result in the cost being VERY large (especially if you start plumbing for intercoolers etc).

Sadly the reality is I'm a few years away from having sufficient bickies to go down either path, so I can equivocate for some time yet, keeping my motivation up with this site and VW magazines.

Cheers

Craig

It can be done cheap. I did my conversion with rear disc brakes quite cheaply. I listed all of my costs here;
http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/january.html

I think the whole "but it's not a VW if it has a different engine" is ridiculous. People put webers carbs, empi wheels, empi / scat / CB / autocraft / other heads, cases, cranks, valves, crankshafts, etc into their VW's and aren't worried that the parts weren't made by VW. Count how many actully VW parts are on a high powered "VW" drag motor.

I have found that at shows many people love the conversion and want to talk for hours. Those people are very open minded and strangely not many of them come to VW forums. The VW forum people tend to have a higher proportion of so called "purists" and therefore if you hang around here you get the impression that not many people like the conversions. Although having said that this area has been growing in recent years.

I did my conversion because I liked my car but didn't like the VW engine. I had many VW engines before changing to the V6. Now I have a car that is way nicer to drive, and has digital climate control air conditioning. 🙂

Hey Craig - im kinda the same, wanna get another 'aircooled' vw post the conversion. Reubs has the best of both worlds!

I like the bug, the shape and the character - engine wise? Sure its cool to say its fast and air cooled. BUT, i think anyone who puts a 1916 in would probably get bored and want to get more hp - that costs lots - then they get bored of that and go again - and so on. IF you go suby, go turbo, that way you can control what you want. the fact that you reach to the ignition from outside the car, turn it, and the EJ20T fires up straight away is a pleasure too.

Cost wise of a suby, depends. Ask Jakriz what he spent. My halfcut cost $3600, it was an 02 STI - you dont have to go down that track - i did it the expensive way - there may be no need to, but i have more power on tap if a choose to go faster - though im sure 200hp will be plenty for a while (Brad reckons ill get bored of that!).

Depends what you like about your vw. Aircooled was loud, crappy on really hot days at 100k's and not as smooth as the suby - though aircooled has additional character. MInd you, tell people you have a WRX motor (or STI) in a beetle and the reaction is funny as!

Good luck Craig - both are good options!

Thanks Wes and Mick,

I've been playing close attention to Joel's conversion, and have tried to track everything down that I can about Jak Rizzo's car both on here and on German Look (sadly many of the photos seem to have gone AWOL when the GL site went down for a while). I think I need to have a beer and a chat with those that have done the conversion. That's my plan with you Mick, but I'm waiting for the job to finish. I have a sneeking suspicion that sitting in the passenger's seat of the 58 would be enough to convince me!

Cheers
Craig

Sounds good to me Craig - anytime. Hoping to get it back for the weekend - really really want it back now.

Can't wait to do some club stuff, be good if i have fellow dubber to come too!

id like to make a point here, craig, qwendolyns master has actually pointed out the fact you SHOULD upgrade gearbox brakes & suspension for EITHER, just because its aircooled doesnt mean $$$ shouldnt be spent on those aswell, the point about those is in a sense pointless, you just have less of a choice legally if you go wrx 🙂

on that note the things you should factor in is plumbing, electrical, & body/pan mods to suit as these are the things that make the differences between air & water regardless, add up the bang for buck of say, a 2.xL T4 based turbo compared to buying an ej20t exclude brakes gearbox & suspension $$ for the start then work it out...

if theres arguement, read the 1st part about the legality & sensibility of it all, hope that makes sense

Baja Wes wrote:It can be done cheap. I did my conversion with rear disc brakes quite cheaply. I listed all of my costs here;
http://www.offroadvw.net/bajawes/V6_baja/january.html
The VW forum people tend to have a higher proportion of so called "purists" and therefore if you hang around here you get the impression that not many people like the conversions.

I really don't think this is such an issue............the main problem I see is that unskilled people think that buying a $500 jap motor is a solution to there problems, and that it costs bugger all to do the conversions. This is NOT true for someone that is not able to do the work themselves. Yes yes Wes we all know yours was done cheaply, and yes yes we all know that Jak did his cost affectively as well, but you guys did all the work yourself and are skilled..BUT ask Mick how much it has cost him, or speak to Buggy Brad to find out how much he charged to do the conversion for a "drive in, drive out" conversion.

And re the "upgrades"....you don't need rear disc brakes, uprated front brakes, uprated torsion bars, and a fully modified gbox for an aircooled upgrade...Yes yes I know its favourable, but not mandatory.

I have no issues with conversions, just the perception that they are cheap.

Thats exactly right Craig T, the conversion will vary considerably with regards to how much u are able/willing to do yourself. I did my conversion for $3800, engineered , on the road, BUT, I have access to many things that others don't, Father is a Toolmaker, Inlaws own a wreckers, good mate owns a muffler shop, Pauly wired up the Microtech etc etc. look after my gearbox as well. my car was also already setup for a high powered donk with big brakes etc, so no money was spent on the car.

Gwendolyns Master , if u are going to Warwick I'll take u for a drive if u like. All pics that were on German Look are now here http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/forum/index.php?&autocom=gallery&cmd=sc&cat=6

if u have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
regards
Jak

Again, just note i didn't take the cheaper path. Even if a shop did my conversion, if we did it more on the cheap the price would of been different.

I've done my own conversion before (Rotary in a 68 beetle), didn't have web access, was 18 years old and knew nothing about cars. IT was time consuming but fun - i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking job, not just a job that works.

There is probably enough people that have done it now for those keen to convert to have a go at doing most of it themselves. ITs all about the right bits and combination at the end of the day, and there is proof of that now.

Exactly Craig, cost depends on how much you do yourself. Same thing applies with building a tough VW motor to a certain extent.

1303Steve wrote:Hi

I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make 60 or 70 hp.

1904???? Explain for the unlearned....Please.. 🙂

Mick058 wrote:i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking job, not just a job that works.

I'm glad Mick that u did yours different to most other conversions, it would be boring if it was "just another" wrx powered bug. I think it's something very special, I'm pretty sure there are conversions out there with zip ties holding the engine in LOL
regards
Jak

cheers Jak - considering how little was cut out of it, its different to others.

Jak Rizzo wrote:

Mick058 wrote:i didnt have the time to do this conversion, plus, i didnt want to wreak my 58 - thats why i asked Westside to do it and to do a 'good' looking job, not just a job that works.

I'm glad Mick that u did yours different to most other conversions, it would be boring if it was "just another" wrx powered bug. I think it's something very special, I'm pretty sure there are conversions out there with zip ties holding the engine in LOL
regards
Jak

but they are the good quality zip ties🤪

you get a nice smooth running motor
you can add air/conditioning
and when you pass every one on the HWY all that they
see is that they are being passed by a bloody old veedub.🤪

ps I think that you would have the same problem with any car that you want to race, I am pretty sure those evo and wrx owners still spend thousands on em to get more power .

[/quote]
but they are the good quality zip ties🤪 [/quote]

well thats OK then.

colonel mustard wrote:

1303Steve wrote:Hi

I just put a mild 1904cc Type 1 engine in my sons bug, a conservative cost with me doing all the work would be around $3000, it will most likely make 60 or 70 hp.

1904???? Explain for the unlearned....Please.. 🙂

90.5 bore and i think 74 stroke. Its in mine

I don't know that I can really add any value to either agruement, for or against.

I have a wrx powered beetle because that is what I wanted. My conversion is probably over complicated regarding how the conversion done, however so is the car, modified to the exteme. On the other hand I've just had Dave Butler hype up my aircooled 1916 and will be installing fuel injection to it, again, because it was what I wanted to do. Neither of my cars are daily drivers, and I have no intention using either of them as a daily driver (my 58 was for around 2 years with the old 1916 twin carb setup). Sure a stock wrx engine is cheaper then a hot 1916, but my purple bug probably owes me twice that of my 58. Future aspirations are for a 20b powered bug, but that is another story...as well as being able to afford the 'dream'.

Both of my cars are just toys to have fun with, and as Wes keeps saying... 'waste money on'... Volksies are my passion/obession so I'm happy...

At the end of the day I think you need to determine what your expectations of the car is (daily driver, reliable, etc etc) and what your 'real' budget is...

reub-revhead wrote:Both of my cars are just toys to have fun with, and as Wes keeps saying... 'waste money on'...

Yep, VWRX is one of the nicest wastes of money I've ever seen 😀

The car is what you want it to be!
It will be a VW no matter what motor you have in it, if that is what you want it to be for you.

However if I was to win any drag races in a VW with another brand engine, then it is the brand of engine that wins the race, as I see it.

dont look past a Ej16 or ej20 motor , most of these are given away from guys doing GX impreza conversions to WRX drive lines

I am a EJ22 motor here I can not give away , so its going in the bin on sunday

if the postage didn't kill me, I'd take that Ej22 off your hands. 😢

you know if VW had half a brain... and I think they do, they'd build a hypo rwd beetle with something looked very similar to an EJ20. Just the EJ20 itself is a great little motor and comparable to SRs and the like. They even came out with variable valve timing.
was talking to a guy the other day and there are heaps of EJ16-18s going in trikes now apparently.

yep ej16 & ej20 single cams are fitted due to weight laws

And Subaru has just released the turbo diesel boxer. Now you can zip down to the deli for a fill up.
Or grow your own sunflowers and laugh at all those poor sods pickin dirt outa their Dellorto's.

I love my notch and to me its my daily i drive and park anywhere. It starts everytime and i try to find time to service it once a year. The whole turbo engine cost about the same as a top line computer for a FI aircooled with no dyno or tuning hassles. Ive never tuned my notch in 10 years.
To me its still a VW. I get in, its all VW even that old VW cab smell, best bit is it virtually starts itself and backs itself outa the garage.
As was said before, most people on the street and at hotrod shows get a kick outa that its not og air cooled. Most people that ride in it are either hysterical or speechless. The ladies, well they blush terribly.
Once you've gone the conversion, you will wander why you waited so long.

How is the money return after the conversion. Has anyone sold a bug with a subi engine, if so did you get your money back?

Hi

If your building or modifying a car to resell in the future, your bound to make a loss, Subaru powered or air-cooled powered.

Steve

or in other words.... build it for yourself to enjoy, not to sell.

Yeah i dont want to sell it but mum thinks i will so just tryin to convince her subi is way to go

71-BEETLE-SEDAN wrote:How is the money return after the conversion. Has anyone sold a bug with a subi engine, if so did you get your money back?

if you owned one, you wouldn't want to sell it. and I'm not being silly. the engines are seriously that nice. a real pleasure to drive.

and tell your mum you could try and fix something that's 35years old and worn out, or put a nearly new engine from a nearly new car. I can guess which one she thinks is better. 😉

pete wood wrote:

71-BEETLE-SEDAN wrote:How is the money return after the conversion. Has anyone sold a bug with a subi engine, if so did you get your money back?

if you owned one, you wouldn't want to sell it. and I'm not being silly. the engines are seriously that nice. a real pleasure to drive.

HAHAHAHAHA......you are being silly.

the engines are no nicer than any other motor produced in the last 20 years....get your hand off it !😂

You need to get out and start driving some more cars. 🥲

The subi engines are ok, but they aren't the best engine out there. The reason why all the VW people go for suby engines is that they are a flat 4 and therefore an easy fit.

People in other cars in which they aren't restricted to the flat 4 go for 1jz's, 1uz's, RB26's, SR20's, etc. They are nice engines. A well set-up R32 GTR is an awesome beast with an awesome motor.

I find the suby motors somewhat raw and unrefined, that's why I went for my V6. The dyno operator at least year's Brisbane VW dyno day said to me that he was really impressed by how nice and smooth my motor was, and he has dyno tested a lot of engines.

Having said all that, I don't think Pete was implying they are the most awesome engine in the world. I think he was saying that a beetle with a suby conversion is such a nice product as a whole that you wouldn't want to sell it.

The Philosophical question sure is an interesting one till recently I would have never entertained the idea of have an vw with anything but a vw aircooled engine.

I have a 54 bus and it has a modded 1800cc type1 engine 112hp, looks all period with 356 porsche carbs etc, so you open the engine lid and it all in keeping with vintage vw's

But I stared to think about a daily driver, I usually just go for some Japanese ultra reliable small car to get me around, then the idea came to me of a type3 squareback with a suby swap. Still a vw but the daily driver power/reliability of a more modern car, perfect half way house for me.

So for me its the fact that I already have the all vw base covered that allows me to entertain the idea of a bastard vw as a second car.

Here's my Subaru conversion, and my vee dub is air-cooled.

Craig Torrens wrote:the engines are no nicer than any other motor produced in the last 20 years....get your hand off it !😂

Torrens, it would be easier to take your comments seriously if you didn't own every second aircooled beetle in Sydney. 😂

BTW, dare you to rip out your pobjoys and put in a 1.9TSi's or 2.0TDi's. It ain't gonna happen is it. Nup. Gutless. :p

Philosophicaly all engines are air cooled..................

Why did I do it? For the reasons above and for the same reason man went to the moon...... because we can!

ibmoknegawsklov wrote:Philosophicaly all engines are air cooled..................

which is pretty much what I said to G.M. the other day

Hey Hey Craig,

In answer to your philosophical question about Subaru conversions.

It is wrong to transplant a Subaru engine into a old air-cooled Volkswagen.

The simplicity is gone.
The character is changed.
The car is no longer an air-cooled VW.

VW does not make a modern Flat 4.
A Subaru Flat 4 is NOT the modern interpretation of a VW Flat 4. It's a Subaru boxer.

Transplanting a modern LS2 into an old EH is retro-tech. Ethically this is fine, because the 179 and the LS 2 are GM engines, they come from the same family.
If one wants a modern engine that shares DNA with an air-cooled Flat 4, perhaps the Boxster Flat 6 is the solution?
But of course, it is not possible to fit a Boxster engine into an old Beetle or a Type 3, and it would detract from the simplicity, the character and the soul of an air-cooled VW.

For maximum power and torque, the philosophy of the "Hot Rod VW scene" has been to tune one's air-cooled engined VW engine.
This philosophy has remained true since the beginning: from when dealers bolted Judson superchargers to customer's 1100's. To the fabled high compression 1776's of Southern California in the mid 1970's, to todays monster 2.4 litre Type 4s Autobahn cruisers.

Craig, you wanted to know our opinions from a philosophical point of view.
Despite all it's practicalities - power, modern EFI, air-conditioning. It is philosophically wrong to use a Subaru engine in an air-cooled VW.

Craig, in summary, I will quote you:

"To my heart the aircooled flat four is intrinsic to what makes the car a VW... I can’t get past the fact that the aircooled engine is not just the heart of the car, but the soul as well"

Dr.Zayus

Thanks for the reply Dr Zayus.

As you will note from Pete Wood's comment above, he is my little cartoon devil that sits on my shoulder and whispers evil thoughts about conversions into my ear. 🥷

I was actually out at my VW mechanic of choice today working out what stage one of the work I need to do will be (suspension, wheels and brakes first), and we agreed that aircooled is still the best option, and that I should tell Pete to stick to his subaru powered tupperware bathtub, and leave my little gem out of his evil plans. 😏

That said, I still don't have a problem with people who do conversions, it's just not for me.

Cheers

Craig

craig, since your sticking with aircooled i wanna see capacity around 2L with a turbo or a 3L NA oh and ports you can shove your fist in, & since an angry aircooled is easier to fit in... make it happen before i finish mine 😀


failing that... you could always put a 13B in it 😂


truth be told, occasionally i wish i stayed aircooled, mild aircooled even! but wheres the fun in that, i like confined spaces & a car resembling a heard of elephants in a sardine tin 😂

Here's the real philosophical question:

If the Subaru engines of today were aircooled, would you do a conversion?

Would you still build a high dollar type 4 or type 1 engine when you could pick up an aircooled Subaru engine with the same power for a LOT less money?

After all, today's tuning on the VW aircooled engines will eventually result in developing an engine that structurally will roughly be the same as a Subaru engine, but then aircooled.

Why do people make such a big deal about a different cooling system?

Water cooled can't be worse then aircooled. 725 million owners can't be wrong.

STIDUB wrote:truth be told, occasionally i wish i stayed aircooled, mild aircooled even!

no u won't.

Jak

Jak Rizzo wrote:

STIDUB wrote:truth be told, occasionally i wish i stayed aircooled, mild aircooled even!

no u won't.

Jak

Yeah what he said.😊

Although its front wheel drive, and although its an I4, and although its higher than a vw flat 4, I rekon a late golf gti engine would be alot of fun :P...

Lucky i haven't got a decklid to try and fit it under. 😎

mmmm👍 mark IV diesel turbo:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/VOLKSWAGEN-GOLF-JETTA-MK5-DIESEL-SELLING-ENGINE-GEARBOX-/220664707179?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3360a4386b

Probably just dry sump convert for ground clearance, and with the weight hanging a little further out i'm not going to cry if i'm doing wheel stands at the lights... 😂 Have a little more camber on the back for worries about greater centre of gravity concerns, although the majority of the weight is still at the same height anyways (the crank case).

gerrelt wrote:After all, today's tuning on the VW aircooled engines will eventually result in developing an engine that structurally will roughly be the same as a Subaru engine, but then aircooled.

I see what you are saying, but I disagree with you on this point. The subaru is a much stronger block design not to mention the extra bearings. So even with say, a wasserboxer bottom end, an aircooled motor is never gonna get near the inherent strength of an EJ flat four. Sure you might get near it with lots of $$$$, but you will never equal or eclipse the consistency of factory development, reliability and horsepower with a lesser engine design. And re getting close, do you know that Subaru has sold over 3 million Liberty/legacy cars with EJs. That's just libertys, not counting imprezas and others with EJs. Think about how much they have learnt re tuning, engineering and performance from this sort of a production regime. The comparitively small VW performance scene can never hope to even get close to this sort of data when it comes to tuning the myriad of different VW based engines being built round the place. And I say based, coz the once you get past very minor mods, in many cases the ONLY part of the motor that is still VW is the crankcase and the cooling bits.

Why do people make such a big deal about a different cooling system?

I too don't know. If VW, then the most conservative car maker in the world could get over it in the early 70s, and porsche then the most conservative sports car manufacturer could get over it iin the late 80s, surely a couple of VWphiles in cardigans with comb-overs could get over it too. It really just bogan snobbery I think.

Water cooled can't be worse then aircooled. 725 million owners can't be wrong.

Precisely. 😎

its all about $$$$

IF i could get a TYPE 4 350HP and never have to touch the motor but for oil change for under 3K I would be all over it

or if I could get any other engine under the decklid with no mods --i would go that way

CANT beat BAJA WES setup---its a VW to everyone ----just tweaked to his style

as with other cars ---JOEL/MICK/Steve etc ------and if we could get quicl108 (j's car) for under 4k I think we would go that route

Like i said its about money---type 4 NA 350hp and runs and handles like a 911turbo----awesome

I've delibrately stayed outta this one, I answered the exact same post on the samba last week and it's like hitting your head against a brick wall

Itawolf nailed it, as much as I love my subi conversion, If I could have a vw engine with all the characteristics of the EJ it would be a no brainer.

My dream engine was always a f**k off type4, I even got one about 8 years ago to start rebuilding but as most people know type4s arent the cheapest engines to rebuild espcecially when both heads and the case are trashed.

Unfortunately a fuel injected vw engine with 150hp that lasts for 300k+, averages 8.5L/100km, only needs an oil change twice a year, runs butter smooth and costs under $3.5k is beyond the realms of reality

The EFI alone is more than that.

Theres some rough as guts conversions out there, which give conversions a bad name and give the purists something to point and laugh about but I like to think I proved with mine that they can be reasonably tidy installs with minimum effort and $$.
Unless you hear mine first theres no real give away till the decklids open

there is nothing wrong with driving a well maintained beetle
The only trouble is finding one😂🤪😂

Craig's initial question, asks: "Is an old Beetle, still a 'true Beetle', when it's powered by a Subaru boxer?"
The answer is no.

Does that mean, it is wrong to convert a Beetle to Subaru power?
The answer is no.

We love the idea of running a 200+ horsepower Type 1 or Type 4 weapon.
The reality is, that it will be an expensive highly strung beast - that loves the racetrack, then behaves badly in traffic.

Enter the Subaru Boxer - a modern engine, that is a blast on the track and well behaved in traffic.
Many of you guys have proved how well this conversion works.

This thread is not about the advantages of converting to Subaru power or even a V6, it's relates to the philosophical question:
Is a Beetle still a 'real Beetle', when it is no longer driven by an air-cooled VW engine.

What do you think?

Dr.Zaius 🤓

* With the amount of money some of us have poured into our old Volkswagen, perhaps we should have just bought an old 911 or WRX! 🙂

Is a Beetle still a 'real Beetle', when it is no longer driven by an air-cooled VW engine.

What do you think?

Yes, it's still a beetle. The engine is just the technical component that turns the gearbox input shaft.
Replace that, it's still a beetle, only more powerfull with less maintenance.

* With the amount of money some of us have poured into our old Volkswagen, perhaps we should have just bought an old 911 or WRX! 🙂

No, because that's definitely not a beetle! 😉

if it looks like a beetle --then its a beetle ---be it old or new ----

In some ways I find it hilarious that people get their knickers in a knot over people putting other boxers in the back of beetles. Afterall, boxers have never been strictly the domain of VWs, nor have VWs exibited the pinnacle of boxer development. Subaru and porsche really have that in the bag in the mass production sense. For that reason alone, a subaru in the back of a beetle as an upgrade is as many people have said, obvious and logical. Heck, to give people a similar comparison, Harley Davidson went to a watercooled engine on the V-Rod for all the same reasons we are using subarus.

On the other hand, it's not that surprising that VW owners are so pigheaded and difficult when it comes to change. It took them twenty years or so as a collective to start to accept the merits of mods on beetles. Not only that, but the man who oversaw production and upgrades, Heinz Nordorf was famous for his small minded attitude to extensive improvements and motorsport. For thirty years he had a flat ban on factory motorsport at VW. The only exceptions (eg. formula Vee and rallying) to that were by the hand of privateers outside the factory and relied on the sheer number of VW parts available. Now for the statement that will get me kicked off.

Beetles in their natural state handle awfully.

So please don't compare them to 911s. Although as Clarkson and his ilk have said many times, 911s had a reputation for being dangerous too. No plain engine swap is going to fix the beetle's natural strength but at the same time it's achile's heal. Rear engine. Good for traction and that's pretty much it.

SO in answer to this qu, is a beetle still a beetle with a subaru in the back? Yes it is, and it's still just as potentially awful. Just potentially awful in a faster and more reliable way. 😂

p.s. and I like beetles.

When kids stop playing "punch buggy" when they see me coming down the road , it's then no longer a beetle.

Jak

PS my bug rules!

pete wood wrote:On the other hand, it's not that surprising that VW owners are so pigheaded and difficult when it comes to change.

NO wonder so many Wars were started over religion.....

Actually, my point was that VW allowed them to get the "change is bad" attitude well ingrained by changing very little about the beetle over the course of 20 years. People are still fighting over whether a US67' is better than a 68' or a 58' is better than a 60' when in both cases they are essentially the same car. The lack of change in the beetle through the 50s and 60s is only bettered by one company Fender Guitars. The strat they sell now is really not much different to the one released at the end of the 50s. In fact, if many people had their way it would be the same. It's the same attitude that calls 1302/3s 'fat chics' has people looking down their noses at late type3s. Crazy stuff, coz the type3 and the 1302/3 are better cars in so many ways.

So it's no wonder people seem to become physically ill/enraged at the thought of putting a modern engine in a beetle.

Jak Rizzo wrote:When kids stop playing "punch buggy" when they see me coming down the road , it's then no longer a beetle.

Jak

PS my bug rules!

jak, i feel this is the PERFECT answer to this question
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

Heres a question...

if you put a 911 engine into a beetle, is it still a beetle 😂

I think the answer lies 'Each to their own"... its like fighting over whats the best colour in the rainbow.... although i say Blue... and if u don't like it.. then your wrong and a dam evil genocidal liar! 🙅

bajachris88 wrote:I think the answer lies 'Each to their own"... its like fighting over whats the best colour in the rainbow.... although i say Blue... and if u don't like it.. then your wrong and a dam evil genocidal liar! 🙅

For once chris,

I think you are right...

But don't worry, I'm sure it won't happen again. 😂

Here are my angles on the discussion.

We have a modified and engineer approved Bay Bus with a Subaru EJ22. It was an 1800. It is great to have twice the power, a tenth of the maintenance, no tuning required, spare parts available new anywhere, and same fuel economy. To build a 140hp aircooled 1800 would be pretty expensive.

However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1 engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.

pete wood wrote:It's the same attitude that calls 1302/3s 'fat chics' has people looking down their noses at late type3s. Crazy stuff, coz the type3 and the 1302/3 are better cars in so many ways.

Like comparing Late Bay busses to lowlights.

If some people had their way, only Split and Oval Beetles and Split Busses would be in.

helbus wrote:However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1 engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.

Yes, but would you be happy with 100hp?

I think that's where most people fall over. Why have 100hp when I can have 150hp for the same money? (or so it seems)

btw, 100hp well used can be very quick. 👍

pete wood wrote:

helbus wrote:However. We also have a 71 Beetle, and I would not change it from aircooled. I love the simplicity, history, coolness, sound etc. The available economically priced performance options for aircooled would make it easy to change the motor to twice the power. To build a 100hp aircooled Type 1 engine would be very available, easy, and pretty quick in a Beetle.

Yes, but would you be happy with 100hp?

I think that's where most people fall over. Why have 100hp when I can have 150hp for the same money? (or so it seems)

btw, 100hp well used can be very quick. 👍

I think 100hp Beetle motor would be pretty economical compared to a Subaru Beetle conversion. Beetles have a few more mods required to get a Subaru, and more engineering required. A bay Bus (I have done it) only needs the engine. No body mods, no brake mods, no gearbox mods.

Granted that a Beetle Subaru engine conversion would have a serious amount of power available, but in Victoria now under the VASS scheme using VSB14 would make it quite an engineering job. Look them up on Google search. Beetles would cost more than a Bus to engineer.

helbus wrote:I think 100hp Beetle motor would be pretty economical compared to a Subaru Beetle conversion. Beetles have a few more mods required to get a Subaru, and more engineering required. A bay Bus (I have done it) only needs the engine. No body mods, no brake mods, no gearbox mods.

Wanna place a bet on that? 😂

The amount of work involved beetle vs kombi conversion is on a par.
Both need a radiator install, same electrical work and same exhaust system etc.
I didnt have have to custom build an engine support like a kombi needs, just a Kafer bar which is something any bug with more than 100hp should have anyway
Unless you fit an EJ25 all the SOHC engines fit the bug body with no mods, just notch the valance corners to get the engine in or i just unpicked welds so it could be removed to get it in.
Stock gearbox suits the engine pefectly and stock brakes would also be fine, I already had 4 wheel discs anyway but Ian and Joshs WRX bugs were engineered with stock bug brakes

We'll assume thats 100hp at the flywheel which like Craig said is shitloads in a bug and enough to keep most people happy
If you pick up the phone to old Stan (allow min 1hr) or any other reputable builder and ask them for a 100hp engine you'll be very lucky to get out of it for under $7k
It'll make a for a nice drivable engine but i bet you'll be hard pressed to get better than 11-12L/100km in the city, and lifespan doesnt reflect the price tag

The biggest problem with trying to build a performance vw engine that lasts these days is the quality or lack of in the aftermarket world if you don't want to give up your first born
Especially when all the tight arses and new comers who don't know any different yet keep companys like Empi afloat
I'd rather push my bug everywhere than build an engine using inferior quality taiwanese parts which is one of the main reasons I gave up on performance VW engines

My last 1776 motor I built for my bug cost me around $4.5k just for the parts and head work and that was over 4 years ago
It was never dynoed but would be around 80-90hp atfw, to get up over 100hp woulda been $5k+

My subi conversion if you take out the cost of the second engine i had to buy which is an exercise most people dont usually have to go through owes me $3.5K all done and engineered
Nearly 1K of that was just the sump and ECU wiring both things I could have done myself but am really glad I didn't
You can't even buy one of those cruddy mexican crate motors for that now.

The engine stock was 100kw so add in a free flowing intake, hi-flow cat and exhaust and it's around the 150hp mark
If i really push it around town the worst I've got is 9.2L/100 but my average is 8.5-8.7 with mosty stop/start driving and 7.1L on the highway
not bad considering a stock EJ22 Liberty which is over 300kg heavier gets 10.3 city, 6.9 highway and 8.8 average

Dunno how vics engineer certs work but mine was $350 but it's all money for nothing

Actually, you might have a point Joel. If I remember correctly, Damo's beetle with a 1776 puts out 100rwhp and it's chock a block full of every exotic berg bit he could find. There is no way you could do those heads for under a couple of grand just in labor. Now I know there's a diff between flywheel hp and rw hp but even still. Also, my understanding is that beetles only need beefier rear brakes and front discs for a conversion. For a late car, they have half of that stock. I have type 3 drums and discs up front and the engineer was happy with that. Might be a little different with an EJ20T, but with an Atmo motor you don't need anything beyond a single side plate box and a little mechanical sympathy. My cert for the whole buggy was $600. Which is pretty good these days I think.

P.s. It just occurred to me today that the beetle pic at the top of AVD has porsche wheels on it. I find it ironic that certain things from other manufacturers are accepted, even encouraged, but others are looked down on from a great height. Imagine if Subaru started loosing cash and VW bought the company (happened with other car companies). What would the scene say about our conversions then? 🤓

Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)

The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now

I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.

Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.

When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past & said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"😂

enough said really.

Jak

fully sik rizzo!!!!

Jak Rizzo wrote:When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past & said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"😂

enough said really.

Jak

that's awesome 😂

see, kids know best.

Jak Rizzo wrote:When I was dropping my kids to school one morning this week, my daughter was getting out of the back & a little boy from her class walked past & said to her "Sik Beetle Rizzo"😂

enough said really.

Jak

Indeed, mate.

Subaru took a great idea with the boxer engine configuration........ and made it better.

Strangely enough, the most acceptance that my car ever had was with the Porsche club. I was very surprised that they were so positive about it. Infact, I lost count of the number of Porsche drivers that told me that Porsche designed the engine for the WRX & that Volkswagen own the patent for it & that it would seem a natural progression to put a wrx flat 4 in my beetle.
True? Don't know.

Jak

lucky i never have anything intelligent to say.......driving an aircooled 100hp beetle daily and racing a WRX notch whenever possible, i might have actually contributed something....🙁

helbus wrote:Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)

The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now

I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.

Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.

I'm contemplating a similar conversion for a '67 splittie bus and was wondering if you could recommend a Melbourne based company for the conversion..
Regards Tony

just have a go tony, heaps of info around now and its really not that hard
even if you get half way and pay someone to do the rest.
just do what i did and pester someone thats done it with heaps of questions 🙂

Ratmuller wrote:

helbus wrote:Our bus with the EJ22 span the dyno rollers with 101hp at the back treads. (140'ish at the flywheel was quoted engine power)

The radiator is definitely easier in a bus, being underneath. Ours has been there for 5 years now

I would be very happy with a Beetle running a flywheel 100hp motor.

Engineering in Victoria under the VASS scheme starts at $800.

I'm contemplating a similar conversion for a '67 splittie bus and was wondering if you could recommend a Melbourne based company for the conversion..
Regards Tony

I could do it for you start to finish. That is who I recommend. PM me.

Thanks for the encouragement Bob but still need to decide on which motor..?
I like the idea of the suby 3.3 flat six but not sure of the pros and cons yet..
More research required ..
PM Sent Helbus..
Thanks
Tony

Ratmuller, I'd be looking for a later H6 if I were you. The EG(?)30 has the same or more power and is a much newer engine. In fact, if you hold off for a little, I think you'll find a lot of them coming onto the market just like the EJ25 has recently.

Thanks Pete,
Will take your advice on board and keep an eye out for what's out there.
I'll be selling a dc bay ute to finance this conversion so the available funds will partially determine which motor I go for..
Cheers Tony
Aka Tonz Magonz on Dsk and Melburgluft..

Ah Tonz, you old devil.

Pete,

would you be Andys brother...?

I'm going through the process in Vic now and most engineers will quote you $1000 - mines a little more but he is into the VW scene in Victoria - so happy to pay someone who knows what they are looking at. Maybe the VASS is a harder route as just getting the brakes complied is quite a process - and my brake setup will be just over 2k - but is a seriously good setup.

I have estimated my conversion to come in under 6k with EJ20T and big brakes.. that still seems quite a bit cheaper than a VW engine alone.

Fastie,
Are you using the services of Bill M..?

Regards Tony

Yeah I am. He's given me a lot of good advice before even viewing the car so figure I'll stick with him

Ratmuller wrote:Pete,

would you be Andys brother...?

nup, we just share identical DNA 😉







ok, yes, but tell anyone. they still think I'm cool round here... 🤓

Of course it's still a beetle. If you change the wheels, it's still a beetle. If you use aftermarket panels it's still a (flimsy) beetle. If your glass doesn't have a VW logo on it it's still a beetle. It's only not a beetle if you are some kind of OCD brand whore.

I'm back on track with doing a conversion on my bay. It will be far cheaper than what most people paid but that's because of massive concessions I'm making, plus short of machining work I can pretty much do anything myself.

The way I see it is the only practical difference is I'll be able to drive it. Not only that I'll be able to drive it with the stereo on. I won't be constantly listening intently for a change in engine sound or with my heart in my throat with every tap or knock thinking the motor is about to self destruct with no parts for 3 hours + in any direction.
I'm doing it for three reasons. Parts availability, relative cost, and engine longevity.
I can get a subie motor at the wrecker. It won't drop an intake valve seat. Its parts aren't forged from pure unobtainium, with only historical replicas available from China.
It won't be FI, and it won't be much more powerful than stock, but it will work. I'm staring down the barrel of a $650 to over $1000 hit to the wallet just to do a basic topend job on my type 4. Who knows how long that will last.

Would you say it is no longer a bay? By the whole brand argument you could almost say it isn't anyway. It has a mixture of miscellaneous Japanese and US parts already, and a few electrical bits from trucks. that comes from availability. The camper conversion wasn't done by VW or VW licensed. Does that make it not a VW? The roo bar wasn't made by VW, nor the fog lights, rear seat, fuel pump, most of the gauges, gear stick boot, exhaust, 240v wiring, some of the 12v wiring, carburettor, manifolds, spark plug leads etc. etc.
My point is it's still a bay in spite of the parts used. Most cars use parts from different manufacturers anyway, so the whole thing is silly.

Helbus..
You have PM..

Cheers Tony