A few months ago I decided the only way to learn was to buy an old engine, pull it apart and put it back together and get it working.
I bought a 1600tp from 1303Steve and having finished an exam last week I finally found an hour or two to start over the weekend and this evening.
Before attempting to put it on a borrowed engine stand, I decided it would be good to get manifold and tinware off. Manifold was easy, heads look nice and gunky on the inside, photo below.
However the screw in bolts holding the tinware on are a pain in the buttocks 😠 I've been applying lots of WD40 but still have four left. Is it just a matter of patience, or does anyone have suggestions??
However my main concern at the moment is the engine stand. I have two questions:
- What size (diameter) bolts will I need to go through the case at the top?
- The bolts that are at the bottom obviously stick out from the case by roughly 56-57mm, but the engine stand receivers are longer than the bolt at about 60mm (photo below), meaning that I can't screw a nut on the end. My guess is that means this engine stand is no use to me. Your thoughts?
Thanks for your help guys (and girls), the dumb questions haven't even begun yet. 🤓
Craig
matberry ·
Give the screws a good crack with a hammer on a strong large screwdriver, then try to undo. If that doesn't work, vice grips or even side cutters grip around the screw head and undo. As for the engine stand, a pic from further back would help us advise but appears to be not appropriate.
Vanders ·
I know it's for a type 4 motor, but I found it easier mounting the bell housing to the engine stand.
Sides ·
With the engine stand question, mostly what I've seen done is bolt a nice big heavy flat plate to the plate of the stand, and then bolt the engine (flywheel removed) directly up to that.
Ive also seen people bolt the flywheel directly to the plate using 4 clutch mounting bolts, but I personally wouldn't try that one - those M8 bolts are pretty teensie really.
$2.63 homebrand baja ·
I just finished mucking about with engine stands and rebuilding, had the same issue with my engine stand. On my engine I found taking the clutch plate off first then getting some bolts similar to the engine mounting bolts, packed with washers did the trick. I put a wad of rags over the bottom so the flywheel didnt rub, then carefully lowered it into place with an engine crane. The flywheel could spin freely once I removed the rags and the top two bolts with the washers held it in place even when I carefully tilted it to the side. Hope that helps.
Camo ·
Craig,
Where about's in Sydney are you, I have an impact screwdriver.
I'm in the Liverpool area, if that helps.
Send me a PM if you want to borrow it etc.
Kev
HappyDaze ·
A 'make do' engine stand could be trouble. I have one that is made for VW engines. Using a top bolt and a bottom stud, one case half is secured to the stand, allowing all the bits to be removed and replaced (including the flywheel) without hassles. You can borrow this is you like - I'm in Bowral though, is that too far away?
Cheers, Greg
Craig S ·
Hi Guys,
Thanks for the replies, I'll keep being patient and applying WD40 and give them some love taps with the hammer, but if that fails I'll take up your very kind offer Kev. BTW I'm in Blacktown aka God's own country.
Greg thanks for your offer as well, but I think they're reasonably cheap and my guess is that all the local dub shops (Volksbahn, Classic etc) will have VW specific stands, and if in doubt, there's always Vintage. TrickySimon, where did you get yours?? The cost has already been approved by the minister of finance, but I was trying to curry favour with her by borrowing instead of buying.
Will post more dumb questions at a later date.
Cheers
Craig
jsheppard64 ·
my last resource for removing stuck in bolt is to weld an easy to find bigger sized rooted hex bolt on top and screw it out
trickysimon ·
Craig, I got mine off ebay. I think the seller makes them.
I'll try and find his username for you.
trickysimon ·
Here you go, his username is yasdnil01 on ebay.
Looks like he sells alot of engine stands. Send him a message if you're interested 👍
Matt Ryan ·
yasdnil01 is a member here too, he doesn't post much though.
Regards,
Matt.
Craig S ·
Thanks Simon, I'll try that, I've had no joy with two Sydney shops so far, and trying to get through to a third.
colonel mustard ·
Try Rod penrose..... I believe he donated the engine stands for Warwick.
Craig S ·
Still to get to the guy on ebay (I have to register first before I can contact him), but I've already discovered a conspiracy, no VW shops sell engine stands because they fear people won't use their workshops. At least that's what I've decided after ringing around several this morning.
One thing suggested to me is that if I get the bench mounted one (which I have tracked down), then the shaft is likely to be the same size as the engine stand I've borrowed, so in theory it could slip straight in. Thoughts anyone?? Obviously I'd measure the one at home, go to the shop and check the measurement before buying.
Second question: how necessary is a stand. Apart from getting the oil out (which I could do by sitting the engine on two saw horses), I can't think of anything else it is completely necessary for, apart from ease of access??
Thanks for your help and ideas.
Craig
trickysimon ·
If your splitting the case its gunna be alot harder without a stand to take it apart and put it back together.
You can tilt the engine on its side and sit the crank, cam, rods etc in the half of the case connected to the stand.
1500S ·
Gwendolyns Master wrote:Still to get to the guy on ebay (I have to register first before I can contact him), but I've already discovered a conspiracy, no VW shops sell engine stands because they fear people won't use their workshops. At least that's what I've decided after ringing around several this morning.
One thing suggested to me is that if I get the bench mounted one (which I have tracked down), then the shaft is likely to be the same size as the engine stand I've borrowed, so in theory it could slip straight in. Thoughts anyone?? Obviously I'd measure the one at home, go to the shop and check the measurement before buying.
Second question: how necessary is a stand. Apart from getting the oil out (which I could do by sitting the engine on two saw horses), I can't think of anything else it is completely necessary for, apart from ease of access??
Thanks for your help and ideas.
Craig
The one shown in the pic below is a good strong one. You're a year too late with this one as I gave it to someone at Lalor Park (near you!!) back then to clean out the shed a bit.
In the new year you may convince me to make another one! Fits the Hafco etc stand.
DH
Craig S ·
Thanks DH,
I'm hopefull that I'll get it sorted tomorrow, but I still need to come and visit you to get some other stuff.
Craig
Camo ·
You have to be joking. Look here and go get one in the morning. I saw the bench type ones when I was there the other day.
CLICK HERE then type in engine stand and click search.
Kev
Craig S ·
Thanks Kev,
Yes Classic have the bench mount ones, but he told me this morning that he didn't have any of the floor mount ones. So I'm heading over there tomorrow morning to measure the shaft, and if it is 60mm then it will slip straight in to the stand that I have, and my problem will be solved. Fingers crossed it is a fairly standard measurement. I'd use it on a bench, save for the fact that none of my benches could take the weight.
Craig
pete wood ·
that stand should be fine mate. do you want me to come round and show you how? give me a call.
alternatively, I have a couple of spare belhousings we could use too.
Craig S ·
Hi All,
Good news and bad news. Went and bought myself a vice grip and some big mother screwdrivers today (I told you I was a novice at these things), and therefore manged to get the remaining bolts out today, but one of the bolt heads came clean off with the vice grips. 😬 I sat there and contemplated this for a moment whilst staring at the bolt head resting comfortably in the vice grips, but given that I plan to replace the heads, this is just an annoyance rather than a catastrophe.
So anyway I took the spark plugs out and the rocker covers off as well, and they seemed cleanish. My daughter kept herself entertained by taking photos of the progress, the edited highlights of which are below.
More on the engine stand to follow.
Craig S ·
The trials of the engine stand continue. 🤪
Prgoress report: Classic does indeed have bench mounted engine stands, but the diameter of the shaft on them is 40mm, and I need a 60mm shaft to fit the stand I have. So I gave that idea up for today, because I didn't have time to check out your generic motoring shop to see what size the shaft was on their stands.
I have now sent an email to the guy on ebay and hope to hear back soon.
In the meantime I bought some bolts (M10 - 100mm) and did a trial fit with the gear I already have. I will be removing the flywheel before attaching, but have to wait until Pete can come around with his 36mm socket and breaker bar, so it's there for the moment.
It bolts up easily through the two holes at the top, and then the bottom bolts can sit comfortably in the lower thingies (technical I know 🤓 ) although the bottom bolts aren't long enough to peek out the other side and have a nut attached.
Only problem is that it fouls on the rim of the case (as can be seen in one of the photos below), and when bolted in tightly is likely to damage the rim. Is this a critical problem? Will I stuff the case if I do this??
Your forbearance of my ignorance is appreciated.
Craig
1303Steve ·
Hi
Just find some tube with a 10 mm ID to make spacers for the engine stand out of. Give those top head studs a good soaking in WD40 etc
Steve
colonel mustard ·
Craig, I suggest using an upload site for your photos. Something like photo bucket is great, then you can have many more images in one post 🙂
Craig S ·
Hi Colonel,
I have resisted long enough, now a member of photobucket, future posts should look much more snazzy.
Your brother in 1303
Craig
matberry ·
The engine stand will stuff the case if left like it is. Some flat shim/steel or ally to pack up the gap could work, but I prefer to have a larger syrface to bear against and spread the load.
71-BEETLE-SEDAN ·
I dunno bout the stand but ive just started to pull apart a 1200 or 1300 engine to 'give it a clean' and check it out see ow it all works etc, youll have lots of fun
yasdnil01 ·
Howdy yasdnil01 here, I don't post much because I'm the strong silent type ......lol
Yeah I make engine stands, in fact I make several different versions for vw and porsche engines as well as other vw air cooled tools mostly for type 1 - 3 engines 1100cc - 1600cc
Anyhow if anyone needs a engine stand like a bench mounted one or a free standing floor roll around one contact me and I'll
send some pics and prices.
My engine stands are not cheapo Chinese ones like the other guys sell
Australian made !
By an Australian manufacture
good to see 8mm head studs and it even still has the hoover bit, awesome 👍
Craig S ·
Yes, yasdnil01 does indeed sell engine stands because I've just bought one which will hopefully arrive in the next few days. Then I can actually make some progress on the engine.
Dumb question Joel, but what is the 'hoover bit'?
Craig
trickysimon ·
Its that little bit of metal bolted to the back of the oil-cooler.
It just gets rid of the gap between the oilcooler and the dog house.
Getting pretty rare these days.
Joel ·
yup,
there on the newby compulsory throw out list along with breast plate tins, lower cylinder tins and thermostat flaps
Craig S ·
Don't worry Joel, if you saw my garage and shed you'd know I never throw anything out. 🤪
Anyway, the engine stand arrived today and I've put it together this evening, should hold everything very nicely. Now I just need to attach it to the engine and put it on the stand, and then work can start..... in fits and starts 😂
Joel ·
sadly me being the same over the last 15+ years is why i ended up with too much vw crap that im now having to send to the dump cos its just got way out of hand
matberry ·
Joel wrote:now having to send to the dump
What!!!
chippy ·
NEVER send VW stuff to the dump! there are plenty of people who can use it on here! 🤪
Joel ·
people always say that but its never the case
i gave plenty of warning and as usual it just gets the eyes picked out with a few common parts
noone wants boxes of german tinware when u give it away, but the second it goes to the dump theres an outcry
exactly like when brad had his clean up
hulbyw ·
Just had my stand delivered from almetal. It was custom made to suit my Repco engine stand that used a 60mm shaft. Top job with reasonable price and very quick delivery. Highly recommend!
Craig S ·
OK, so this afternoon had Pete Wood around here with the flywheel lock and a 1300mm bar attached to the socket.
We tried every way, me standing on one side (80kg), Pete standing on the bar (90kg) and vice versa, and that sucker wasn't going anywhere.
Soooooooo, what next?
Suggestions, ideas, helpful hints, high explosives etc welcomed.
Cheers
Craig
trickysimon ·
Rattle Gun?
FROSTY ·
get a longer bar and another mate on the other end. It has to let go at some point
Well the good news is that a rattle gun sorted out the problem of the annoying flywheel in double quick time. So now the engine is finally on the engine stand, it's just a shame that I'll have no time for the next fortnight to do anything else. 😢
Just as well it's not a race 🤪
hulbyw ·
Hey, no wish to hijack this thread however does anyone have a "hoover bit" for sale?
jjwebb123 ·
great work man.Keep it up.
Joel ·
hulbyw wrote:Hey, no wish to hijack this thread however does anyone have a "hoover bit" for sale?
if your handy enough or know someone who is theyre not overly hard to bend up
hulbyw ·
Thanks Joel! Looks straight forward enough. Doesn't look like any Hoover I have seen though
Cheers
Joel ·
its just cos its all flat sheetmetal
and doesnt have pressed strengthening ribs like a stock one
Craig S ·
Well did a lot of pulling the engine apart yesterday, photos will follow a little later.
First problem was I discoverd the old metal dish I emptied the oil into had a little rust hole at the bottom, which resulted in quite a bit of oil on the floor, but once that was sorted we were away.
So, I've got the heads and cylinders off, even though 3 of the cylinders decided they wanted to stay on the heads, and I've discovered how difficult it is to remove the crankshaft pulley, even after the bolt has been removed. So now I'll probably buy myself a puller for the pulley!! The heads and cylinders and such like are now sitting in a tub part way through cleaning.
So today's dumb question: How do you remove the piston pins? I've tried arguing with them, but that isn't working. Any suggestions???
Cheers
Craig
hellbugged ·
with a pin driver and hammer.......take the wire circlips off first, don't hit the rings against the head studs
Craig S ·
Thanks for that. Are pin drivers a standard size (and therefore available at any auto store), or will I need one sized for this engine particularly?
Either way, here are some photos of some sad looking 36 year old pistons and heads. Just as well I'm planning on replacing all this with new (and larger) stuff.
Judging by the amount of goo around the outside of the cylinders, the cooling system wouldn't have had much impact on the temperature of the engine. I don't think any air could have made it through, and it certainly wasn't running over the metal taking heat away.
Cheers
Craig
Note the cylinders still attached to the head, will hopefully unstick them soon.
Craig S ·
OK, at the risk of sounding like the apprentice searching for left handed screwdrivers, where I am going to find something to get the piston pins out? Nothing available at Supercheap was going to do the business. I know Muir suggests using a socket of the correct size to hammer it with, and perhaps I'm just being a bit namby pamby with my whacking and I just need to hit it harder???
As always, any advice greatfully received.
Craig
stute ·
Hey Craig,
Id remove the whole piston head mate, your going to domit anyway so there isnt much pijnt in fart arseing around getting the rings off.
The rings should flex enough to be about to pull them over the top of the piston head itself, clean them up and pout them back of I supose.
While your at it, put the pistions in some cleanser and gove them a clean aswell.
Can you do a massive favour thoigh, can you put some rags in the block opening, there is alsorts of rad crap going in there.,LOL.
Alos, if your going to spit the block, it would be easier to take your conrods off the shafts and clean them that way, watch the bearings though.
Hope it helps.
Stuart
stute ·
sorry about my spelling aswel, I broke half my nail off at work and have a bandaid on, so im hitting all sorts of keys
Joel ·
Silly question Craig but you have got both circlips out right?
those wrist pins can be tight little buggers
but i only ever use a deep socket to knock them out as well
Stute, that engine is so gunked up inside it needs a full tear down and clean out anywayz
Craig S ·
Thanks guys, not a silly question Joel, because my knowledge is next to nil, but yes both circlips are out, I think I'll just have to whack harder, and yes, it'll be a long socket otherwise I'll just replace one pin with another!!!
I think everything is hard to move because I don't think it's been apart in its 36 years of life, and yep, it's pretty gunked up. Makes me wonder about the state of the one sitting in my car at the moment of identical vintage which has likewise probably never been pulled apart.
Fortuantely, I'll be replacing the pistons etc, because the plan is to increase capacity. I suspect there may not be much left of the original engine by the time I finish 🤓
Craig S ·
Well I have discovered the joys of having the right tools for the job. 🤓 I got myself a crankshaft pulley puller and a wrist pin pusher, and got the pulley off and all the pistons off, so tonight I've moved on to the oil pump, and having learned my lesson, also got myself an oil pump puller.
Despite having the correct tool, and following the instructions in the Bentley Manual, the oil pump does not want to come out. 😬 It's stuck. So I've liberally applied WD40 and given it a gentle love tap with the rubber mallet and given up hit and hurt for the night. All it looked like it was doing was bending (albeit not by much) the forks on the puller.
So I'll try again tomorrow. Once that's out I might almost be able to get the case apart!!!
In the meantime and hints for dealing with recalcitrant oil pumps would be appreciated.
Cheers
Craig
1303Steve ·
Hi Craig
Leave the oil pump in until you start to split the case, once the case starts to split whip it out then.
I cant believe how cruddy the motor was inside, it had many oil changes when we had it, I guess that's why the oil got black so quickly.
Steve
matberry ·
Ok, a bit late now, but a wrist pin puller is east to make from about 8" of threaded rod and a piece of 25mm conduit. With the oil pump, if you loosen the nearest case studs it'll be easier, but with an engine that old and crappy looking, I just pull the oil pump studs and while splitting the case it'll probably fall on the floor. A well placed rubbish bin may save your back 🙂.
Craig S ·
Thanks Steve,
I've already loosened all the bolts on the case so I might try that. I was just afraid that the case may be stubborn as well, so had also bought a case splitter which fits in the oil pump hole (obviously once the pump has been removed).
All part of the adventure 😁
Craig S ·
Thanks Matt,
Sounds like splitting the case is the go. I'm a bit paranoid that I'm having so much trouble with it because I'm clueless (and undoubtedly that's part of the problem), and I look at people who bring back early engines from the brink and think I've got it relatively easy, but I guess the engine is a bit on the worn side, and most of the parts have been together forever.
Hopefully I've have some time tomorrow, but suspect it will be family day, as my wife is working the rest of the long weekend, so spending time on the engine tomorrow when she is home will probably land me in the dog house. 😏
Cheers
Craig
matberry ·
Yep, know how you feel.....I'm usually very friendly with my dogs too.
Craig S ·
Our greyhound is getting grumpy and old and doesn't want to share any more. We occassionally foster other greyhounds as they transition from track life to home life, and she won't put up with other girl dogs any more, so we foster the boys these days because they do what she wants 🤪. She didn't even bother coming in to the garage tonight when I was down there, so I'm best keeping my place in the house so I can sleep on my own bed, rather than share with her.
Craig S ·
Well it's been a good day. 🙂
Church this morning, then a walk around Sydney Harbour National Park with the family, then managed to get started on the engine about 5pm. After loosening the bolts last night the oil pump came out with the oil pump puller as intended, and then I removed all the bolts (I thought), and started using the case splitter.
The case started splitting, but it would only go so far, and the whole thing didn't want to play like I hoped, so I stopped splitting afraid that I would do some damage to something.
After some stuffing around I turned the engine on the stand, and finally noticed under a pile of gunk was another bolt. I probably should have counted against the number specified in the manual, but being a boy I didn't bother.
So, surprise surprise, it actually came apart pretty easily once all the bolts were out, and now I have two engine halves. So now I have a lot of cleaning to do. I think given my current schedule that will start next weekend.
Once that's done, all I have to do is figure out what I want to do with it as I put it back together.
Cheers
Craig
ryana89 ·
Any updates?
Been waiting/watching this read eagerly.
This thread is definantly gonna help me when I get a chance to pull apart an engine too🤪
Please feed us some more updates!
Cheers👍
Craig S ·
Sorry very little to update at the moment, apart from the fact that I've spent some considerable time with my hands in a bucket cleaning parts. I'm only at stage one of cleaning at the moment, which is to get the worst of the grime off. Stage two is a good proper degrease. Stage three will be a large tub and lots of hot soapy water.
I also now have the heads completely disassembled. After using gallons of WD40 and rubber mallet action I finally got two more barrels off the heads, but one didn't want to budge at all, so in the end (given I was planning on replacing them anyway) the metallic motivator came out and a few sure swift hits later the cylinder came loose. It only lost one fin, but it will now exist as decoration (and a warning to any other recalcitrant parts).
Next step will be to figure out how to remove a woodruff key.
That probably won't happen for another week or two though 🙁
Craig
Craig S ·
Hmmm, obviously been a while since I last wrote here. I knew it had been a while, but didn't realise how long!! Sometimes life gets busy and you forget how much time passes.
I had been doing some cleaning, and after a few more delays along the way, I'm almost at the point of having completely dissasembled the engine (except I don't have a hydraulic press to remove the gears off the crankshaft).
Once my car returns from it's present brake and suspension upgrade the money will start being saved towards the rebuild of the engine, but in the meantime I have a question for today.
Any suggestions on how to move stuck cylinder head studs? ❓
I have about 6 stuck in each side of the case. I've applied WD40 a thousand times and applied as much force as is practical, but with no joy.
I was thinking that I would have to weld a nut to one end and then try and use a socket and bar to get it moving, but am afraid I'll crack the case.
Other option is to grind the rod off and then drill it out.
Is that something better left to whomever I get to machine the case?