wrx drive line

any one tried subarugears reverse diff set up yet, looks good no need for adaptor plates or porsche five speeds just use the whole subaru driveline..

http://www.subarugears.com/index.htm

Hi Paul

The guy making them is going to have a display at the Nationals, it will be good to see them in the flesh.

Steve

Something different and this bloke is thinkin outside the square....
The only question is how strong will they be....if it was a 6mt gearbox ur laughin all the way to the bank
👍

JVLRacing wrote:Something different and this bloke is thinkin outside the square....
The only question is how strong will they be....if it was a 6mt gearbox ur laughin all the way to the bank
👍

I can lift and walk with a 5 speed

My 6 speed I need two people to lift it, around 30ks more

killa for a Vw

seagull wrote:

JVLRacing wrote:Something different and this bloke is thinkin outside the square....
The only question is how strong will they be....if it was a 6mt gearbox ur laughin all the way to the bank
👍

I can lift and walk with a 5 speed

My 6 speed I need two people to lift it, around 30ks more

killa for a Vw

tRUE😎...but it is a better box,thats why u HAVE ONE😎.i would just take out 30kg in other places to compensate for strength of a 6mt!

seagull wrote:My 6 speed I need two people to lift it, around 30ks more

killa for a Vw

Have you picked up a G50?

all comes down to how much power you want to put through it........
Good on the bloke for expanding the options
Cheers
D

i've purchased this... just waiting for the parts to be made.. will let you know how it goes..

a standard 5 speedsubaru box will handle 180-200kw at all 4 wheels in a full wrx with no problem, i dont know why you guys are worried about wether it will last or not in a beetle which only 900kg and driving 2 wheels. if the reverse crown will is a quality unit it is a fantastic concept.

Hey guys, thanks for the kind words about the concept. Had TONS of interest in the product from all over the world. azrael kadeus, thanks for your order!

Not doing the 6 speed sti box at this time, it's a whole different setup. I've only had 3 or 4 enquiries about the 6 speed sti box vs 300 or so for the 5 speed box. So I reckon if you're running enough power to blow up a Subie 5 speed in a lightweight bug, you can probably afford to buy a G50 or UN1 and deal with all that.

Interestingly, the TY 5 speed that we all know is now available as a 6 speed TY box. It's the same external dimensions and my reversed gears still fit it. It has increased webbing and strength in the case and a redesigned gearset that's stronger yet again than the latest sti and RA boxes. It's also cable shifted. All very interesting and promising. They are in the latest USA liberty/legacy cars and also behind the turbo diesel motors which gives you some idea of their ability to handle torque.

I have built a 2000 5 speed box converted to 2wd as my demo box and this is being fitted to a buggy in Sydney as we speak. We aim to have it ready as part of my stand at the Nationals on Sunday 23rd May. EJ25 powered. I'll also have my demo stand there which has a Subie box and motor bolted into the back of a type 1 chassis so you can see how everything fits. I've been busy expanding the product range to also offer 2wd locking sleeves, blanking plates and output flanges to bolt on type 1,2,4 or 930 cv's. As of this weekend I will also be offering fully built reversed boxes that we ship out ready to go, in various models according to application.

All this will be on display at the nats so you can see it all in person. Please come down and see me and have a chat, I love hearing about everyone's projects and if I can help you with your gearbox decisions then all the better. Hopefully by next years Nats I will have had enough time to finish my 4WD Manx and can share that.

Gday again. Its all coming up roses when you have some time to spare can you give me a call about costing on box outright no exchange + CV set up need 2 sets front axles to subie diff for the synchro. Cheers good going
Ernie

Dropped you an email with lots of questions Ernie. Cheers Todd

Product update : We now produce the Subaflange, an output flange that converts the Subaru box splined output to VW CV's.

Subaflange type 124 allows VW type 1 (94mm), type 2 and type 4 (100mm) CV joints
Subaflange type 930 allows Porsche 930 (108mm) CV joints only

The width is adjustable to be the same as either 091 box with vw flanges or type 1 irs box with vw flanges. This way you can retain your current cv and drive shaft installation.

The Subaflanges are made from 709m billet and will withstand any punishment. Here's the computer simulated strength analysis, notice there are no red hotspots :



Here's a couple of pix of the final product :




We're now also offering fully built reversed transmissions.
These are fitted with our flipped ring and pinion,
Subasleeve 2wd locking sleeve,
Subaplate block off plate for 2wd (or shortened centre diff housing for those with torsion bars),
Subaflange output flanges.

All transmissions are fully refurbished by factory trained personnel with over 15 years of experience working on these transmissions.

There's a grid on the site http://www.subarugears.com where you select the box according to your application, vehicle weight and engine power. Prices start from $3400 with core or $3700 outright.

cant wait til i see this on sunday

Hi Todd,

I have emailed you before and complemented you on all the time and effort re your product.

Normally, people have been buying an adapter to bolt a Subaru motor to a VW gearbox. I was just thinking that these Subaru boxes would be another great way to get a 5 speed (over drive) in our VW powered cars.

Do you or anyone know if current engine adapters can be turned around to fit a suby box to a VW engine. I dont think it will be this simple, but just a thought as I like the idea of whipping other cars with the old air cooled engines.

Your Subaru boxes would be better than fitting a Berg 5 speed adapter to our VW boxes.

Just my thought and Cheers, Kev

I'm with you Kev, if an adaptor could be made to fit to an air-cooled engine I'd buy one as soon as I had decided what my specs and likely output was. Sadly that's still some time away 🙁

So I'm hoping the venture is a massive success so it's still going when I get around to it.

Craig

the adapter could be used in reverse to mount a subi tranny to a vw engine but my concern would be clutch fork and starter gear reach with the adapter acting as a spacer
but im sure todd will be able to answer that one

Actually guys I have just assumed you could use a Kennedy one and put it on backwards to make it all fit. Clearance around the starter motor for the flywheel. Or do you even need to put it on backwards? Just put the back bolts in the front and the front bolts in the back...???

If someone wants to bring an unused adaptor plate and an empty vw block, crank and flywheel to the nats on Sunday we can have a play with it and nut it out. Or I'll take it home, sort it out and publish the results so everyone has the info for free. If a starter motor adaptor thingy needs to be made then I'll make it or most likely a cranky kits one already fits.

As you can see I haven't really looked into it that deeply. The next job was going to be reversing the Subie 4 speed and 5 speed auto. I've already worked out how to do it. That will keep the yanks happy.

Or I could actually get around to finishing my 4WD Manx......

ttriebler wrote:Or I could actually get around to finishing my 4WD Manx......

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍


Smiley 😎

Gday todd keepon top of manx it is the money spinner when people see it finished the will all want awd beetles etc even down to awd splits the conversion applications are endless awd mazda bongo how good would that be awd reno 10 What about a dual rear axle awd strechted kombi fiat 600 out there is someone ready to try somehing differant thats why we do conversions to suit our own taste But get into the auto asap before someone beats you to HE WHO HESITATES LOSES IN THIS CASE BIG TIME
Ernie












00

OK guys had plenty of interest from the aircooled guys at the nats today keen to see how this trans can be hooked up to their motors. I was a bit surprised actually....pleasantly!

I can get my hands on an adapter plate next weekend but need someone to donate an unneeded type 1 case and crank plus some different flywheels and maybe a beetle starter.

I'm in St George area of Sydney and will happily pick up in the greater Sydney area after hours during this week. If anyone can help out with a piece or two of the puzzle just PM please.

ttriebler wrote:OK guys had plenty of interest from the aircooled guys at the nats today keen to see how this trans can be hooked up to their motors. I was a bit surprised actually....pleasantly!

I can get my hands on an adapter plate next weekend but need someone to donate an unneeded type 1 case and crank plus some different flywheels and maybe a beetle starter.

I'm in St George area of Sydney and will happily pick up in the greater Sydney area after hours during this week. If anyone can help out with a piece or two of the puzzle just PM please.

Hi

I have an EJ adaptor that I'm not using at the moment, I'm in Lugarno.

Steve

Thanks Steve, no dramas bon't need it. I've got an adaptor and a vw 1600 block and crank plus a vw banana mount. Hope to have a go at it tomorrow.

What I also need is a kombi crank and flywheel as I guess the big hp vw motors are mostly kombi motors...?? Oh and maybe a fan shroud??

Am hoping to head up to boof's on Monday and plonk my box with both a vw aircooled motor attached and an ej20t attached and see how well the fit into a superbeetle with body, valences, guards and decklid on. Let's see if everything clears.

Will report back.

very interested in all this, some pics of the progress so far? as the nats were a bit far away for us QLD side people. Subi box and 5 gears would be sweet.

Well, did some work on this today. It's going to need a cleverly designed adaptor plate to bolt the aircooled motor onto the Subie box. Working backwards and putting a clutch plate and flywheel onto the Subie input shaft and box reveals that the Subie flywheel actually protrudes 10mm out the front face of the bellhousing. So this is going to be a 25 to 30mm thick adaptor plate with a large diameter relief milled out of the gearbox side to clear the flywheel. The adaptor plate will have a hole cut in the centre that allows the vw engine to centre itself by its ridge and not 'walk'.





Here's a look at how well the transmission sits on the VW banana mounts. Should be fairly simple to make a good bracket to bolt onto the transmission.



And a little teaser......

Hi

That looks like every air cooled VW drivers dream, 5 speeds.

A few questions.

I've looked at your site and it says that the stock VW shifter works OK, so can you get all 5 gears plus reverse with no modifications to the VW shifter?

The 6 speed box from the Aus spec Impreza WRX STi MY02-04, is this one you can fit C&P to? It has the A.P. Suretrac.

Steve

geez this looks good..........although I would want a couple so there goes more $$$ !!!😵‍💫

1303Steve wrote:Hi

That looks like every air cooled VW drivers dream, 5 speeds.

A few questions.

I've looked at your site and it says that the stock VW shifter works OK, so can you get all 5 gears plus reverse with no modifications to the VW shifter?

The 6 speed box from the Aus spec Impreza WRX STi MY02-04, is this one you can fit C&P to? It has the A.P. Suretrac.

Steve

Hey Steve the stock type 1 shifter works perfectly. The Subie shift rod comes through just to the right of the vw shifter. You bolt them together with 2 tubes and some plate like this :



You remove the reverse lock out plate from your gear lever and bolt it back in. Select first just like you would expect, to the left and forward, reverse, to the right and backward.

My R & P doesn't fit the STi 6 speed you're referring to and that 6 speed doesn't fit into the type 1 pan. It's a massive box, much heavier than the TY 5 speed featured here. The STi 6 speed is overkill for 99.9% of applications.

The TY box is now also available as a TY 6 speed if it's more gears you're after, and my R & P fits it. It has been strengthened and revised even more and is standard issue on the 350nM turbo diesel boxer. The TY box has heaps of LSD options available for it, viscous, clutch plate 1.5 way, 2 way whatever you like from various manufacturers like KAAZ and others.

id love a six speed just to ay i got a six speed in my bug

Pity I'm not in Sydney, I could design up an adaptor and custom flywheel without too much trouble.

On my V6 I kept costs down but using as many standard parts as possible, just in weird combinations. I have the Mazda flywheel and pressure plate, but the VW ring gear, clutch plate and throw-out bearing.

Hey Wes, once you drew everything up in cad, what could you get one off adaptor plates and one off flywheels made for? p.s. I'm keen to retain the standard Subie flywheel and adapt it to the vw crank instead.

76bug wrote:a standard 5 speedsubaru box will handle 180-200kw at all 4 wheels in a full wrx with no problem, i dont know why you guys are worried about wether it will last or not in a beetle which only 900kg and driving 2 wheels. if the reverse crown will is a quality unit it is a fantastic concept.

its the ratio that is the braking point of the subaru box and Todd is on to this with a 4.44 crown wheel and pinon.

If you look at the subaru gear boxes over the years one can see what subaru did to beat the braking issue.

aussi boxes were 3.9 front & 3.54 rear there crap !
Jdm boxes 4.11 & 4.44
Now there is a 4.11 legacy box has a wave washer in 1st gear to stop the gear singing to you as you drive up to the window in macas , then there is a 4.11 wrx gear box & a 4.11 sti RA box close ratio.

The v3 sti was 4.44 ratio a good strong box , however I have three here broken 1st 2nd 3rd

Throw all the above out the window when your talking 6 speeds as the gears are massive & the box has a oil pump fitted. not like the 5 speed that is splash feed with oil.



Todd what steel is your cv flange made from ? it would be smart to have a flat rear face as the bolts come lose and I would want to fit a locking nut on the rear.


all looks good Todd

I know a good machine shop with all the CNC gear in Sydney if that helps ??

I bought a big chunk of 20mm aluminium plate for $50 from a scrap metal merchant. We made 3 adapters from it, abrasive water jet cutting cost $66 per adaptor.


The flywheel cost $264 dollars. That was machining the ring gear off an old 2nd hand VW flywheel, machining up the Mazda flywheel, then pressing and welding the ring gear on.


I was happy with the adaptor plate, but I think the flywheel could have been done better. Having said that 2 of them exist, and neither have had a problem.

Thanks Seagull, we're slowly getting there, still a few bugs to iron out but I'll keep working on things and keep developing kits. The flanges are made from 709M billet, this is a pre-hardened steel used for gear making that still lets the machine tool cut it without too much wear.

The first batch I had hand-made as I couldn't get a cnc shop to do them at a reasonable price. But I think the guy making them for me will tire of it real quick, there's a lot of steps involved and material to remove. Going to visit another cnc shop this week to see if I can get a more reasonable price. Would like to keep the manufacture in Australia if possible. Barring this I may go to a forging and just have them done at the gear factory that does my gears.

I'm a bit surprised you want a flat face to put a nut on the back - millions of flanges around the world and I've not seen any with nuts on the back. But I guess it's easy enough to incorporate and then we've got an additional feature. Thanks for the suggestion 👍

Did a bit of work in fitting the subie box into a super today. Holesaw a hole a couple of cm to the right of the current shifter hole and then trim the access hole in the pan a bit to let the shift rod come through as per the pic of the shift rods above.....total work 5 min.

Now you find that the back of the box hits up against the lower lip of the body in 2 spots - where the reverse lockout is on the back of the box, and the finned ridge on top of the box. Grind off the ridge on the box, grind off the lip on the bottom of the body. Undo the body bolts and insert some washers to space it up a tad in the gearbox area. Box fits.



You can see here the lip that needs to be ground off the body.



If you really wanted it to fit nicely and have a bit of clearance for driveline movement you would need to do a little cut n shut or some persuasion with a hammer.

Didn't get to fitting the motor/box combo as some of the back of the body needs to be cut away to fit those big heads in. More to follow in a few weeks time.

Pity ben the guy who owns the car at the shed still doesnt know we were drilling holes in his car!!!

All looks good!!! Especially the CV flanges that I was hoping Todd would forget he showed me and leave them there...

Single side plate with albins gears will be for sale shortly if anyone interested...

Matt

Todd, i have a mate with a 5 axis cnc if you want to get another cost perspective.


Stephen

Would you guys mind getting in on my thread here ??❓
http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=2754#fp

OK guys, I think we've pretty much found Nirvana for the beetle guys. We managed to get the Subie Quad Cam EJ20T and 5 speed transmission to fit under the rear decklid and guards.

Thanks to the incredibly friendly, helpful and skillful assistance of Boof and his mates at the shed, we got to work on solving all this. Before I launch into it, a round of applause for Boof (Matt) for being a true champion, there was already a cut up pan and back half body waiting for me tonight. Thanks again.

They key to making this setup fit in a beetle body is to lower the engine and transmission down as close to the frame horns as possible. We actually end up with the motor in the same spot as if you used an IRS beetle box with the banana mount reversed to move the beetle box forward.

In order to get the Subaru output shaft as low as possible, I have to produce some Subaflange output flanges that are 50mm longer and move the large part of the flange and cv outboard of the frame horns. Thus the skinny part of the output flange can sit just above the horns. This will necessitate finding or making shorter drive shafts but that was already part of this conversion anyway.

This mock-up was done with a swingaxle pan which still has round frame horns. An IRS pan already has these flatter so expect a decent amount more clearance for the cam covers on an IRS pan to what you see in these pics.

This is what we cut out of the body to get it to fit. There is a bit of cutting on the edge of the seatbelt mount reinforced plate so you would/should box this and make everything strong again. We really didn't need to cut into that firewall/parcel shelf. One bolt of the transmission just hits it. This could be 'adjusted' with a hammer or the bolt left out and the boss ground off the gearbox.



We needed to cut off some of the back of the body, just after the last body/guard bolt. Also cut some of the metal off the inside of the guard to clear the cam covers. Maybe a little much was cut away here but you get the picture.



Left hand guard j.u.s.t. touching the top of the cam cover.



Without cam cover







Right hand side cam cover







Without cam cover





Output shaft to frame horn clearance





Throttle body to firewall clearance....you could get a pod filter on that for n/a and get nice cool air, or for turbo apps you could get a silicone elbow in there and route to wherever your intercooler is. No cutting of firewall for throttle (maybe around the turbo depending on location and up-pipe.)





And the finale......



Aircooled guys you KNOW your motors are gonna fit in here with this box easy AS. I am working on the adaptor plate and flywheel adaptor for type 1 and type 4 motors to bolt right up.

boys looks ok....i would turn the throttle body,manifold around....thats wat i did!
U will get more room around the cam pulleys

Good stuff to matt😎

nice!!!!

We know that most turbo guys will cut more of the firewall to account for intercooler and turbo, we also wanted to show the minimum amount needed to run a high powered vw engine with a subaru box.

I am really impressed with the fit of the whole unit, a few weeks back we were very concerned about length and height. This will nearly be easier than reversing a stock box mount and moving forward 50mm, as the front intermediate mount will be similar, you do not shorten shift rod and the rear engine mount and gearbox mount is one unit. I have a seperate engine mount that attatches after the box and engine are fitted.

Looks like the superbug will be expecting an engine sooner than I expected.....with my bug getting a gearbox swap shortly after.

Matt

lol i see some more panels were fitted after i made my exit, missed the photo shoot 🙂

Wanna get rid of those cam covers? Let me know if you do.
Thats a great fit. Glad I haven't cut the firewall and floor of mine yet.

Made a video of the test buggy going down the freeway today. EJ25, entry level 5 speed box with VW cable clutch and bowden tube, 3.9 final drive ratio, 31" tall tyres

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvcGwHuaCdY

I am trying to make a better video than Todd 😂

Here is my effort from my drive to work this morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKu0ZtXXGCk

Now its time to show how tough they are 👍

crimson ghost wrote:Now its time to show how tough they are 👍

True. Other than doing burn outs have you got any other ideas to show how strong it it ?

Not sure I can spin the 31 inch tyres much anyway - maybe I am not trying hard enough 😊

I've just gone through this thread and it's been a great read, with pics to boot.
Am curious about the 6 speed though 😉
cheers
D

BlueV2 wrote:

crimson ghost wrote:Now its time to show how tough they are 👍

True. Other than doing burn outs have you got any other ideas to show how strong it it ?

Not sure I can spin the 31 inch tyres much anyway - maybe I am not trying hard enough 😊

A higher RPM launch would be nice.
Thanks

I tried this morning, but had trouble holding the camera steady and launching at the same time 🙂. ttriebler is bringing over some spy dvd sun glasses as we speak, so I will see what I can get done on the weekend.

OK here's the definitive answer on the 6 speed gearboxes. There are two types. Firstly there is the 6 speed STi box. This thing is 40kg heavier than our beloved 5 speed, built like a truck gearbox and doesn't fit into any VW based pan. The thing is huge. I am not and will not be doing reversed gears for it and they are completely different to the 5 speed gears.

Now, there's a second type of 6 speed out and it's in the 2010 Outback and some Forester/Liberty cars around the world. It is also behind the turbo diesel with 350nM torque from the factory. This 6 speed is a revised version of the beloved 5 speed. They changed reverse gear from a dog gear that moves on a shaft to a constant mesh gear. This made room inside the housing for an extra forward gear. So the 5 speed is now a 6 speed and incorporates all of Subaru's latest design updates and double cone carbon synchros, plus a revised case casting that has extra stiffening ribs. Interestingly it is cable operated instead of shift rod and this mechanism is interchangeable with 5 speeds.

My reversed ring and pinion bolt straight into this 6 speed. So for whoever wants to have a 6 speed just for the sake of it, you can now have your cake and eat it.

So when am I getting a 6 speed to test !!! LOL !!!

As soon as you find one!!!

The only thing I am pissed off about with this conversion is, that I have a swing axle floor pan :-(

Great work guys.

Kev

Can you get me a 5 speed thanks Toddy, also do you have paint options... i would like it Blue.

When are you coming out to the shed for another sleepless night?


Matt

Kev buy a pair of weld in IRS boxes and get with the program. You know your bug will handle heaps better as an IRS to boot.
Matt I picked up those widened flanges today, the blue paint on them is almost dry. Going up the shed tomorrow (Sunday?) we can give them a quick trial fit on the rig if you have time. And I can take your 180rwkw beastie out for a thrash.

you get out there today and play with the flanges ?

know what im sayin

Love a bit of flange play but no, alas, didn't get out there. Full week this week then NZ for a week so it will be a few weekends till we get back out there.

I'm in the same boat as Camo, mine is swing axle. I seem to remember seeing a car in a magazine a few years ago that had an IRS transmission with u-bolt joints instead of CV joints. The axles were custom made and the car was still swing axle because there were no outward joints on the axles. It was no doubt an expensive thing to make. I think that I'll probably go with the IRS Conversion when it comes time for a new transmission.

That would be a Folts axle conversion.