valve bounce, new springs needed,but which ones...

after racing in a 2 day event on the weekend which consisted of about 25 stages my valves started floating frequently at 6000rpm, usualy itll rev to 7000 no worries. so im assuming its new spring time. the springs are PEP duals which came on my heads, all i know about them from a article of steve timms is that they have a seat pressure of 140 ft-ibs, 320 ft-ibs on the nose and installed height of 1.550"...

so would anyone have any suggestions on what to purchase...

Ring Rod Penrose.......didnt he sell you the motor ?

you sure its valve bounce ?

Craig Torrens wrote:Ring Rod Penrose.......didnt he sell you the motor ?

you sure its valve bounce ?

x2, and the only way to be sure is remove them and test them. Can be done in car.

Before removal, I'd check all valves are getting full lift, after all the engine isn't that old.

i have rang him and he is checking out some springs for me, but just wanted to see if anyone has had some good results with a spring similar to mine in spec...thats all.

and yep there floating....

IF it IS loss of valve control,
there are quite a few springs available.
Probably the best current option for VW diameter dual springs
is the CB performance 650 spring.

http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1586

Three important things!!:

1.You must check that the spring can not get into a bound condition.
1.5mm from bind at full MEASURED lift is a good start point.

2. Correct the CAUSE of valve spring pressure loss!!

This can be a range of causes,
some of which relate to correct selection of
cam, rockers and initial valve train set up,
like spring pressure at installed settings and even geometry.

3. Get a rev limiting device an set it to prevent valve float.

I found out the hard way many years ago,
that the tacho and my ear, were not a good enough way to control the revs.
An actual rev limiter is a MUST.

I over reved my engine once and a search of the resultant 3 cylinder running
had a valve spring fall into the dirt,😂
when the rocker cover was removed.

Once I fitted a rev control,
I found i was hitting it all the time,
and it was set 1000 rpm more that where i thought I was reving the engine.

Spectators said I reved it so high, that only dogs could hear it.

Being the Co-Driver for Chris at this event, I would have to say it was vavle bounce. The motor does not have a rev limiter installed, so this is a problem that im sure Chris will be looking at...

The thing I find interesting is at the start of the WE the motor was revving to 7000rpm no worries, with the vavle bouce happen later, it progressivly got worse to when happening at 6000.

Anyway was a awesome WE and the car other then the above performed flawlessy! Gotta love knocking the socks off all the modern cars 🤓

I'm sure Rod will sort it out for you.

dave, we had at least 2mm before coil bind at full lift when we fit the 1.4 rockers about 4 months ago.. we did have to adjust all the valves at the end of the first day as they were all loose,only adjusted them weeks prior...

i did have a 6800 limiter a few weeks ago when i had a 009, but now i have just installed a cb magnaspark diizzy.what do i use as a limiter with this??

how do i find why they would loose pressure...

matt, what has a valve not getting full lift got to do with the floating? sorry for the amuture questions guys, still learning the game..

derro, after checking the in car vid cam, i quite frequently was shifting earlier then i normaly would..

cnfabo wrote:we did have to adjust all the valves at the end of the first day as they were all loose,only adjusted them weeks prior...

did you not stop and think.. "why is the gap increasing ???" !

nope, tell us why the gap increased craig.....

Have you checked the valves again, since experiencing the problems? If so had the clearances increased again?

What's your thinking Matt & Craig... that the increasing gap is from the springs not pulling the valves fully closed or something ???

dunno but it almost sounds like lifter probs and a flat cam to me.

thats what i initualy thought, but whats the chances of every lobe going flat..... ill check tappets again today..

Think about it........when you set your tappets , where is the lifter in relation to the cam lobe ?.........well its at the base of the circle, so even if you were losing the top off the lobe ("flat cam") it wont affect the clearance at the tappets will it ! 🙅

Cams aren't the only things that go flat, lifters going flat is just as common.

good luck with your problem then.😁

I was helping, I was steering you in the right direction !

First ring the person who sold you the motor and they can ask the person who built it what to do....

Personally, new springs may help the valve floating but its certainly not going to answer why your tappets gaps are increasing.

You said you have put the 1.4's on recently, maybe you should start looking there.

Chris , I have done some research and have found a suitable spring for you to use . I am glad you took the time to call me rather than take some peoples advice that dont build engines . There are a few options I have for you from a few different companies and I will call you , ROD , 02-42729920 .

Craig , Upholsterer yes , Engine builder yes , Owner and builder of Australias fastest vw yes . I have been building performance vw engines for almost 20 years and have been racing them for even longer . I am not a mechanic and have never claimed to be a mechanic , I have learnt to build engines by myself . I think that I am a little bit qualified to give advice and help out my customers . You seem to think that you are a good vw engine builder by some of the bad advice that you give , but I suppose you are only a chemist and need to sell thrush cream to give correct advice , and need other people to build your engines . Let me know if I am wrong , I am always interested in different engine combinations and would like to know all about your engine builds , ROD.

Don't hold back Rod, say what you think! No, wait, perhaps you shouldn't.

Cheers, Greg

RodPenrose wrote:Chris , I have done some research and have found a suitable spring for you to use . I am glad you took the time to call me rather than take some peoples advice that dont build engines . There are a few options I have for you from a few different companies and I will call you , ROD , 02-42729920 .

Rod, how is my advice wrong ?

If you think I'm giving wrong advice, It would be great to hear how YOU think the replacement springs will help fix the increased tappet clearances that Chris is experiencing.........oh and then maybe I can show you how to use that cream you ordered 😂

Let's all back a step here. This thread is >< this close to disintegrating.

@Rod and Chris - I suggest you folks work out what went wrong. I think many would be interested in the results. Constructive & positive wins every time.

@All - please keep it civil, or the thread is toast.

thanks,
Andrew

no worries andrew....🙂

Andrew , Nothing went wrong with this engine of chris' . I have advised him on what to do and not what to do with the maintanance of his engine . I dont need people like Torrens butting in with stupid remarks that other peple may take as good advice . Chris asked in another post about valve float , and Torrens replied that valve float will not hurt his engine . This is in fact not true and to the other people on this site that read this info may beleive this and this may cause some damage to other engies . I had assembled Chris' engine with a FK 8 camshaft and a set of 1.25 rockers . This was to be a good reliable combination . Chris after a few races wanted more from his combination and wanted to up-grade to a set of 1.4 rockers . I had advised against this as the maintanance of the valve train and especially the valve springs would receive a lot more abuse from the faster opening and closing of the valves . Now that chris has changed to the larger rockers the springs have lost their tension . I have found a good solution to the valve springs and will recomend the Bugpac race springs . The CB 650 springs that are available are good but are only suitable for exrteme lifts . The Scat springs are quite good but do not have the tension required at full lift . So Andrew , I have come to the conclusion that giving bad advise on this site will cause someone to either have a faliure of some kind or cost them a lot of money . I have a lot of respect for Chris as he askes the questions before he does something , and to get an answer from someone that does not have a clue is wrong . I have seen the past posts of Torrens on this site and cant seem to find anything real constructive , ROD.


edited by barls for language.

some good info there Rod. just to clarify do you believe the valve springs losing thier tension will cause the increasing tappet clearance that chris was experiencing or would that be some other issue(perhaps with the adjuster)? this will be helpful info when i come to choose what valve springs to run, thanks in advance.

RodPenrose wrote:Andrew , Nothing went wrong with this engine of chris' . I have advised him on what to do and not what to do with the maintanance of his engine . I dont need people like Torrens butting in with stupid remarks that other peple may take as good advice . Chris asked in another post about valve float , and Torrens replied that valve float will not hurt his engine . This is in fact not true and to the other people on this site that read this info may beleive this and this may cause some damage to other engies . I had assembled Chris' engine with a FK 8 camshaft and a set of 1.25 rockers . This was to be a good reliable combination . Chris after a few races wanted more from his combination and wanted to up-grade to a set of 1.4 rockers . I had advised against this as the maintanance of the valve train and especially the valve springs would receive a lot more abuse from the faster opening and closing of the valves . Now that chris has changed to the larger rockers the springs have lost their tension . I have found a good solution to the valve springs and will recomend the Bugpac race springs . The CB 650 springs that are available are good but are only suitable for exrteme lifts . The Scat springs are quite good but do not have the tension required at full lift . So Andrew , I have come to the conclusion that giving bad advise on this site will cause someone to either have a faliure of some kind or cost them a lot of money . I have a lot of respect for Chris as he askes the questions before he does something , and to get an answer from someone that does not have a clue is wrong . I have seen the past posts of Torrens on this site and cant seem to find anything real constructive , ROD.

Hi Rod,

at the end of the day not all people will get on with each other,so the fact that you think I'm a d#$%^& is fine by me.

With regards to giving advice, this is an open forum for ALL to give their views/advice/suggestions, and whether you think I'm right or wrong is only your opinion.........I'm sure the reader/viewer is educated enough to make up their own mind who to believe/trust.

You are obviously passionate about giving what you believe is the 'right' advice, so here is an opportunity for you to share why you think Chris's tappet clearances are increasing......so whats your thought on that?

I really fail to see what it is that Craig wrote that got you riled up Rod. All that Craig was doing was offering his opinion along with some others as well, yet you chose only to jump down his throat inappropriately. Uncalled for I think.

squizy wrote:I really fail to see what it is that Craig wrote that got you riled up Rod. All that Craig was doing was offering his opinion along with some others as well, yet you chose only to jump down his throat inappropriately. Uncalled for I think.

The reason that you can't see the offending post, is because it has been removed! I wonder who did that, Craig?

HappyDaze wrote:

squizy wrote:I really fail to see what it is that Craig wrote that got you riled up Rod. All that Craig was doing was offering his opinion along with some others as well, yet you chose only to jump down his throat inappropriately. Uncalled for I think.

The reason that you can't see the offending post, is because it has been removed! I wonder who did that, Craig?

Hi Greg, no I didn't remove any post.......nor have I said anything offending.

I thought the "Upholsterer" reference was a bit snide - how did it disappear then?

I think you will find my comment was a response to others, not an initiating one...and I stand by it.

I suggest you let it rest Greg..........lets just try and find an answer to Chris's problem.

HappyDaze wrote:I thought the "Upholsterer" reference was a bit snide - how did it disappear then?

It's called MODERATING......🤖 NO posts were removed by Craig. As Andrew has already asked,keep it civil and also on topic. Thanx.

That's fine Mick H, I think that removing that post was the right thing to do - just a shame it wasn't done before Rod Penrose saw it.

Cheers, Greg

whos using what springs in there circuit/sprint bugs with what lifts,revs etc... and how often are you changing them..

titanium retainers?? or am i thinking poop here...

Bloody hell Chris, haven't you stirred up enough trouble already?

Cheers, Greg

hey im back to asking something serious now greg..what are you using..your 1835 goes hard,spill the beans, help a young fella out.....you have 120years experience 🙂

Honestly, I have no idea what the springs are. Steve Muller built the motor, so you will have to ask him.

What did you finally do with the suspension, and how is it working?

Cheers, Greg

Gregs car ISNT a 1835

AND its completely DIFFERENT to a daily driven car

oh greg told me a while back it was, oh well doesnt matter, it goes well...

greg, the suspension goes great, feels really nuetral on the faster tracks. i can drive it fast with almost 100% confidence. still should limit the rear from going into possitive camber.but im am changing to IRS in 2 weeks time... i got alot of positive feedback in the 2 day tarmack rally.we also received a trophy for directors choice...got 4th in class out of 11, which we where racing aginst 3ltr-5.7ltr cars under 1985..also 14th outright... STOKED...got asked too join the porsche club to come racing with them aswell, more stoked...

http://www.classicrally.com.au/classic_challenge.htm

i can ramble...

IRS!!!! Oh well, I tried. Sounds like your having a ball Chris, and that's what it's all about, aint it?

Cheers, Greg

yep its ALL FUN. so thanks heaps for the suspension help greg, muchly appreciated....

Well done Chris - your car looks great too! Those black rims with the red look the goods.

so here is an opportunity for you to share why you think Chris's tappet clearances are increasing......so whats your thought on that?

Ok CT so wots your opionion on the increased clearances

Hi Chris,

Had a look at the "Classic" results. Well done, car looks good, but your navigator seems to be hanging on a bit tight - is he OK?

Cheers, Greg

thanks guys...

yeah hes holding on, think he was a bit sick,lol....

nice

sliding

Guys, the car looks absolutely stunning! Well done.
With regards to the valve bounce, it's been some years now since I had a vw engine but my last engine was a 2275cc, I started with a K-8 with Berg single springs & 1.25 rockers, I then went to berg duals & Berg 1.45 rockers for alittle more oomph. I have never ever had valve bounce. I always used Berg chromoly pushrods as well.
My mate CT has a K-8 with dual springs & 1.25 rockers, can't quite remember if he has put the 1.4's on yet, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't get valve bounce either, & loves to rev his engines much higher than me.
Hope this helps.
regards
Jak

Woohoo! Now we are getting somewhere 🙄

Yep thats me hangin on as for sick, more sick of you driving like a granny 😂

So suggestions for springs, CB 650 and Berg Duels.

Hey Chris just how old are the current set of springs?

1 1/2 years old, one circuit day,3 drag days,6 autokhana sprint days and the classic challenge... doesnt matter, engines coming out for irs change in 2 weeks, so ill take the heads to hi flow heads and get them to suss them out and check the spring pressures and ill go from there.. could only rev it to 5800 yesty before they started bouncing....

I am probbaly wrong here. But if you where getting valve bounce/float, could you have clipped a piston and bent the valves slightly? this would mean they would not fully close and open up the clearances. Plus you would loose performance?

bix, lets not go there...lol...




ill check my clearences over the weekend and double check , cause i might have adjusted my tappets when they where warm on the saterday arvo, then the floating accured the next day...???

so maybe its just one of those silly stuff ups....

Hi Chris, did you get this sorted ?

craig, nope i havent, i have been driving it everyday to work, but its coming off now for ten weeks while i do the irs swap. so during this time il lsuss it out....

any chance i could have week springs in my dizzy, and thats what the cause is? its a cb performance magnaspark....prolly not, just wish full thinking...

cnfabo wrote:1 1/2 years old, one circuit day,3 drag days,6 autokhana sprint days and the classic challenge... doesnt matter, engines coming out for irs change in 2 weeks, so ill take the heads to hi flow heads and get them to suss them out and check the spring pressures and ill go from there.. could only rev it to 5800 yesty before they started bouncing....

any "sussing" out yet ?

not even close. to busy doing the rear swap so far...

pm sent craig...

so whats the cause of increased clearance. is it bent pushrods?
over heating?

n00b here I want to know. 🙄

will let u know when i pull them out.. but i did check them a couple of weeks ago and they where all sweet... no adjustment needed....

so you changed to 1.4 rockers? do you have lash caps on those valves?

hhmmm, i think so....i hope so..never took notice to tell u the truth...oh shit i think i might not actualy..last time we took the valves out i remember having to wet sand the ends so we could slide them through the valve guides ..so i , i cant remeber them..

is that bad....

cnfabo wrote:is that bad....

Yep

1.4's need lash caps.

With the wiping action of the rocker, it needs the large flat surface of a lash cap, otherwise it'll wear the valve and the rocker prematurely. Also the geometery would be up the creek as they're designed for the extra thickness of the cap.

You would have seen them when doing the valves, the cheaper ones are usually loose on the valves, but it's preferable to be firm or somewhat tight on the valve.
All stainless valves need either a lash cap or a swivel foot adjuster, otherwise they wear very quickly, a stock adjuster screw damages the softer stainless easily.

cnfabo wrote:hhmmm, i think so....i hope so..never took notice to tell u the truth...oh shit i think i might not actualy..last time we took the valves out i remember having to wet sand the ends so we could slide them through the valve guides ..so i , i cant remeber them..

is that bad....

why did you have to take the valves out ?

matt, shish, ill check on the weekend..if i dont have any, which bran/type should i buy??

craig, the valves came out because the heads needed to be cleaned up before ceramic coating, "expensive grey paint"...

With the miles it's done the valves may be damaged by now without them, so to fit them they will at least need to be cleaned up around the tip where the cap sits.

I use Berg or Scat, but the Scat tend to be looser.

cnfabo wrote:cleaned up before ceramic coating, "expensive grey paint"...

😂....oh ok.

should of got the heads unshrouded before painting them...oh well...

Pics don't work for me !!!

So? did I win? was it the valve stem top made love to?

Well?

Did you pop a cover and have a look???

yep,they are not there... from what we could see the valve tips didnt look mushroomed..soo far....we'll see...

Oh dear !!

The rockers get grooves too, pull them off and have a look at the face that wipes the valve tip.

ok heres the verdict, the head guy took to springs off and they had 130ft ibs on the seat and 285 ft ibs at full lift ".534"..then he found 3 springs that have lost 10 ft ibs....and i did mushroom the valves and also wore out the keepers grooves a bit....oh well...u learn dont you...

so new springs for me,i was thinking bugpack 4046's...any suggestions.....

I thought Rod was sorting out the springs for you ?

Craig Torrens wrote:I thought Rod was sorting out the springs for you ?

just would like to hear what others have to say,its educational as well....

Given the choice I would go Berg GB273A.

Get a rev limiter
and throw away that K8.
That is my opinion, you asked!!

130lbs on the seat is a little low, but not horrendous.(?)
If you are keeping the revs limited to no more than 10% over the peak power,
150/320lbs should be enough pressure if the cam profile is harmonic free.

I would shout it some fresh springs.
Keep your revs lower with a limiter,
and set tappets with zero lash if you have chromoly pushrods.

cheers mat ...

dave, if only throwing out the cam was that easy........i have been thinking about a bigger set of heads and cam though..but its no easy decision..............

Maybe the valve float was due to geometry issues without the lash caps causing harmonics??

engines back in and running great...new valves, cb's lashcaps and bugpack 4046 springs...revs to 7000 but you can feel the power drop at 6500 6700 there abouts.....

thanks everybody for the help....