For those who have a short memory;
Many months ago I kicked of a rather heated debate about nudity in the 'Pic of the week' section.
After many posts,IT WAS DECIDED BY THE MEMBERS what was acceptable.
So long as it wasn't porn or illegal, & it had a warning before you opened it, no problem.
Now it appears I need to do it again.
This morning I go to the pic section & find we have been given a set of rules, & one pic already has been deleted.
I am more than a little peeved about this .
Firstly, the person who has posted these rules is not listed as a moderator for the section.
Second, as a senior member of this forum(both in posts & length of membership) I do not recall being consulted, nor do I know of any open discussion about such rules.
I do, however, recall this matter being settled long ago.
Third, there is a punishment for breaching these rules that no one was asked about.
Most importantly, the pic that has been deleted (the 4 girls & the split kombi) was deemed acceptable months ago. But now because one guy thinks, if you stand on your left leg & squint you may see some flange, its gone.
I gave my word last time this sh!t was tried that I would not one or a handfull of people dictate this forum & I intend to keep my word.
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Spook]
Dasdubber 路
Well, as the author of the above mentioned post (split kombi with girls) originally, it was never intended to cause any problems.
I can see both sides of the coin though, hence in my message originally it had something to the effect "IF the moderators feel this is inappropriate, please delete" so I don't care it has been deleted. There were what I thought were sufficient warnings in my post but I understand that some underage kids may decide to ignore these warnings and sneak a peak anyway.
Since there were no rules listed anywhere I thought I'd test out to see what was accepted, now I know and for the good of the forum I am happy to comply, even though I don't necessarily always agree with rules dictated by so few people.
I agree with the above post that some consensus should be reached regarding rules/punishment, but I understand that it can be neverending trying to get consensus on an issue such as this (and since I didn't see the post on the old forum discussing this, I didn't know anything was resolved).
Anyway, after all this rambling, I would rather it was deleted than cause arguements (too late for that) and I am grateful that as per stated in the Pic of the Week section that no warnings have been issued to me since there were no rules listed prior to my "nudie" post. 馃檪
helterskelter400 路
difficult one eh????
at the end of the day & when the fat lady/man has sung, the splitty & bums is/was very weak.
any net nanny type or porn preview service would let through more.
is this an argument to let more in ??
i dunno
all i know is i have no probs with splits, splits and even tits.
if i want intake or exhaust flange, its not the vw site i go to. any kid after stuff knows this too.
when i was a kid it was the car mags ruminating about content.
now my sig other has a recent girls mag with Karen Pinelly as the now aged respectable mother of two/three explaining how she did it (i however have the late 70's car mag with her pre baby boobs a flashin & a pozin).
if its soft on, let it thu is my vote.
KruizinKombi 路
I agree with all three of you. 馃檪
Spook 路
Das, that you didn't see the discussion on this on the old forum is not a surprise. This was kicked off 6, maybe 8 months ago. Well back in the pages, if it's still there at all.
This same photo (& one other) was on the forum then.
The arguement is not to let more in.
It's about leaving these things to the discretion of the particular member.
Last time this came up, the compromise was - the tits & arse could stay, but a warning would be put on the post.
This was reached by open discussion on the forum & "signed off" by Jim.(remember Jim? He runs this show).
Now, for many months, this agreement has hummed along nicely.
The fact is, not many people post nude pics anyway. I think all up there's only been 5 or 6 pics.
My problem now is, some upstart has taken it on his own back to overide this arrangement.
There are rules that members were not consulted on.
There is mention of expulsion for repeat "offenders".
A pic, that has been on this forum for near 8 months, has been deleted, by this same upstart.
The reason...BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, when he ADJUSTED HIS COMPUTER, he thinks he can see some flange.
NOW WHAT CHANCE DOES THAT SORT OF MENTALITY GIVE THE REST OF US?
[Edited on 25-9-2002 by Spook]
Bugged Again 路
I missed the splitties with splitty again, bugger, bugger, bugger. Maybe third time lucky
HotRodMatt 路
I couldn't care less if it's there or not. I ran the pic through many many variations of colour contrast gamma etc and found nothing that would not pass the (some would say ludicrous) standards imposed by the wowser Harradine into the What Can and What Can't. Legally it was fine so that was a damn poor excuse.
Solution. See what the majority thinks.
If people are upset then they shouldn't look. If they are worried about their kids - exercise some f*cking parental control or guidance.
KOM123 路
Is there a way that offending pics can be put in a separate section that requires you to login again? Just a thought.
I'm all for the warnings making people aware about the content of the messages but as a Dad with two kids who like to view VW pics BUT whose kids are not old enough to read a warning (and yes I do "exercise some f*cking parental control or guidance" as it was commented) there are times when kids will click on the next link they see not knowing meaning of any warning.
If you want to see that type of things there's heaps of websites out there and alot have those sections separated off. All I'm saying is when me, the wife and kids go to look at the pics sections there's some things we just don't need to see and that's why the warnings are great because that allows us to control that to an extent, epsecially when the kids are around.
I'm all for comppromise this and also the role of 'each to their own', I just thought a separate section might be one way of controlling it and go someway to keeping most people happy but then again I don't even know if it's technically possible.
HotRodMatt 路
Simple solution. If it's legal allow it. There's nothing the Australian Content Regulations will allow that can't be seen on TV (without any warning) in the press (without a warning).
I don't care if it's posted or not, but I do care about censorship in all it's forms. If we were half as worried about violence or danger as we are pleasure we would be more concerned with "legal obscenity" - ie. posting pics of cars doing burnouts / featuring illegal modifications. All of which could quite easily be argued encourage others to break the law.
Spook 路
A wise old saying goes:
IF IT AINT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT.
The solution is, was & always will be, the status quo.
Kom, as a father of 5,(ranging from 3 to 15) I tell you, there was never a pic posted that was anything more than tit & bum & a VW.
I stated it last time, I've found more t&a in the wife's cosmo.
Nothing was posted that could be seen as needing parental guidance. Nothing you wont see down the beach this summer.
Matt, this has sweet FA to do with Harradine.
This is about a moderator on this forum who has overturned an arrangement hammered out by the members & administrater of the forum many months ago.
This WAS ALREADY decided by the masses.
Bugged, I got the pics put back last time, I'll do it again this time. Or I'll kick up a sh!tstorm trying :thumb
[Edited on 26-9-2002 by Spook]
BenettonVW 路
Ahhh crap.. What the hell is going on here? I thought this was fixed last time? Hmm... Have we had some sort of rule changes that people, such as myself, are unaware of?
I'm sure if it is the 14y.o. lads you think you are protecting, 90% of the downloaded material of the web in porn, so if it was porn they were after, they wouldn't be signed up here, let me tell ya..
So because the location has changed, the rules have too?
Spook 路
I was wondering when you were going to turn up boss.
I'll take it from your tone that you know nothing of these rules either.
Can I expect this subject to be sorted again. Or was it always sorted & this is just a hiccup?
KOM123 路
Heya spook, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers this morning. We've got the threat of redundancies hanging over our heads at work and when someone in management had the hide to make a dubious comment about people with families and parenting skills I was pretty fired up. Next time I think I will leave it a few hours before posting after something like that 馃檪 Anyway some of my points from this morning I still stand by i.e. we apprecaite the warnings on the posts in question and I thought the separated section might be an option to consider, certainly not to enforce or anything.
Cheers...KOM123
Spook 路
Your not the one that's ruffled my feathers brother, and what I said was not a shot at you.
Just an explanation that the pics that have been posted have not been over the top.
I also saw the guidance comment.
Bugged Again 路
I think you should use the foreign movies they show on SBS (especially the french & italian ones oh and maybe the spanish) as a guide to whats allowed and what isn't:o
Maybe we could only allow adult material to be posted after 9.30pm just like the telly!!
Spook 路
Please don't make light of this.
This is about one #$%@ dictating terms for the forum, and threatening punishment if we don't abide by those terms.
One point of this is that not one of the pictures posted to date have been, what I would call, adults only.
Racy; yes
funny; yes
Porn; no
Smut;no
The main point is that censorship & political correctness were tried on this forum once before. & both were shot down in flames.
However, an agreement was reached, that a bit of t&a was ok so long as a nudity warning was attached, so you knew BEFORE you opened it.
For the record, this arrangement has never been abused & therefore not an issue since.
I think I can safely say that more people have been offended by some of the "AIR vs WATER" discussions we have had (I miss them 馃榾 ) than have ever been offended by the pics section.
I'm back on my high horse now, because ONE moderator has decided we need censorship again.
I've been here since the begining & for mine, if you don't like the forum the way it is, then P!SS OFF. I won't miss you.
[Edited on 27-9-2002 by Spook]
kombi_kid 路
hey
i dont think we need to go as far as password protection! i dont see any offence to any of the pictures and my parents dont worry! so you have my approval spook the lad that said the rules is only fairly new to the forum but knows the stuff and dont think he new about the agreement previously made! so you gotta give him some leway!
cheers
rhys
KruizinKombi 路
What we need is some guidelines for moderators.......
jenz58 路
Must admit I've gone and looked at the pics because of the amusing/entertaining replies. (a spy! :eek)
Skimpily clad women seem to be part of the car culture, we still see them being paraded at the Grand Prix, car shows and in car mags. Even Vee Dubbers do it!
I guess you can be offended or you can have a laugh.
What I've seen isn't porn but I'm not sure if I saw the last post. After raising two healthy sons and trying to instill healthy values and respect toward females, their hormones still seem to need a dose of titalation. As 14yearold said, kids know where to go if they want porn and it not a VW forum.
I've seen Latin American music videos that are more pornographic. Must admit I find them very funny and usually go into fits of laughter because everyone seems to be taking themselves so seriously.
It seems to be a thing that men go after because I couldn't find any pics of spunky guys draped over VW's. I thought I'd post one for a joke. The only VW guys I could find had neck to knee overalls buttoned to the neck. How modest? Anyway I don't think there is a big female audience on the Forum, Jay, lil'dub and I, but it's hard to tell with handles.
Really the pics are OK just so long as it doesn't become too regular, then it may be lowering the standard of the forum and become very boring.
From the spy amongst you
Spook 路
No Collin, what we need is one less moderator, & that brother, is my next crusade.
Jen, there have been collectively 5 or 6 pics put on in the 14 months this forum has been running.
1 nude
1 topless
The rest were scantilly clad, but clad all the same.
I did volunteer to do a nude shot next to my kombi, but my wife wont take the pic.
57kombi 路
I Have to agree with spook, as i did 8 months ago.
The old saying goes,,, I might not agree with what you say ,,, but I will fight to allow you to say it...
The point spook is making is ,,,, who has the right to say what we can or cannot see or do!!!.
I think Jim should sort this out AGAIN!!
we have had no problems for 8 months then up it pops,
Let us stick to putting a warning on the post then if you dont want to see nudity YOU DONT LOOK, how easy is that
Cheers
Dave
Buggy Boyz 路
I hate to get involved cause it is so much fun kicking tyres and not passing a comment.
Weather you agree with what was done or not is not really an issue. There is certain rules that must be adheared too in order to allow the forum to run. It currently sits on my server and as such I am ultimately responsible for the content of all files on there. Without getting into to much legal crap and geek speak, nudity is not on. As I am a resident of Australia and my business is registered as such I am bound by the laws of the land and in particular the internet usage policy and service providers rules. As such I am prohibited from displaying any form of nudity. Regardless of the nature of it. Simple as that. Vanderaj is also well aware of the legislation and did what he did to save my ass at the end of the day. If anyone has a problem with this then I am more than happy to discuss it. If someone else want to take over the running of the XMB 1.6 on a server and webspace that they own then they are more welcome to it. I and several others do what we do out of the kindness of our hearts, no money changes hands and no personnel gains are gotten.
The bottom line :
If you want nudity it is time to move onto another site, if you wish to call the lack of nudity censorship, then so be it. If you wish to post them then put them on your own website and post a link only on here. Then your ass is on the line and not mine.
Bugged Again 路
Big Brother has spoken
vanderaj 路
Spook wrote:This is about one #$%@ dictating terms for the forum, and threatening punishment if we don't abide by those terms.
Spook,
Keep it civil. I am not a #$%@. I have a thick enough skin that you could call me a range of things and I wouldn't care overly much as I know (and all my friends know) that whatever derogatory term or slander you sling at me is not true. This thread is not about your opinion of me.
So don't insult or verbally abuse me or any other member, no matter how much you disagree with them.
Lastly, the only punishment that does stick is the one for RC content, and rightly so. It's in the law, and you'll spend 1-3 years in prison for posting it. All the other "punishments" as you call them are easily worked around.
Anyway, I'll talk to the powers that be now that we've had the final statement on what's going to be allowed (ie no nudity at all) and you'll find the guidelines adjusted shortly. If you'd like to be consulted, e-mail me on ajv@greebo.net and unlike this thread, be civil about it.
Andrew
Spook 路
So what your saying Brad, is because of the new server we have new rules, regardless of what the members agreed to on the old server.
Aussie veedubbers .com has become the politicaly correct, censored vw pages, where the members opinions on a given subject no longer matter.
Then this is not the forum Jim started & not the forum I joined.
Well, I'm a man of my word & I practice what I preach.
I don't like the way the forum has gone, & I resign my membership.
As for you Andrew, I like the way you didn't reply until you had back up. Shows commitment that.
Since I neither mentioned a name, or used a real word, you have decided I was talking about you. That's just paranoia.
If someone would be so kind as to email me when Jim Gow is back in charge & the situation becomes unf*cked, I'd be much obliged.
Cheers
Spook
[Edited on 28-9-2002 by Spook]
[Edited on 28-9-2002 by Spook]
vanderaj 路
Spook, I have a life. I've been out having fun since leaving work on Friday. I didn't post until 2.30 on Sunday morning for a reason - so I had simply missed all the action. It's got nothing to do with a spine or the lack of it.
Anyway, Spook, you're still missing the point! It's simply not legal to do what you ask with law as it is now. Doesn't matter if Jim or Santa Claus is running the show. The guidelines I posted would have allowed nudity to the levels you guys seem to be demanding, but if it got any more risque than that, we'd be up the crapper. But it's completely moot as the AUP for the server we're on doesn't allow nudity.
Andrew
KruizinKombi 路
You mean it can tell the difference between two pics, one with clothes and one without???? :o
BenettonVW 路
All I know is that Spook has been here for a hell of a lot longer than most, and was offered an admin job numerous times but liked the ability to have freedom of speech and no responsibilities.. Now, with the strong values and morales he believes in, he is leaving over this.
As I said, all I know is that Spook has been here for a hell of a lot longer than most, and now he is gone. Maybe we are doing something wrong here?
P.S. What the hell is wrong with my pic?
KOM123 路
Excuse the expression but can't bygones be bygones? The position on the pics is now clear and of all the many many posts that Spook has made previously surely nearly all of them have been positive or at least of positive contribution to the forum. Spook if you're still reading these posts reconsider your position as I'm sure you're input is valued by many, just let this issue die there's heaps more topics to chat about and that we could draw your knowledge from.
vanderaj 路
Jim, muchos.co.uk is currently not offering remote viewing of images - they've run out of money.
On the other matter, it's not what we're doing that's wrong. It is simply Australian law. From S.82 of the Act:
82 Compliance with online provider rules
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if:
(a) an online provider rule is applicable to the person; and
(b) the person engages in conduct; and
(c) the person's conduct contravenes the rule.
To give some context, 50 penalty units is $110 * 50 = $5,500 fine for the person posting the material or responsible for it (ie system administrators) and not doing anything about it, and the body corporate can have five times that fine if they also don't act. Per incident. (2000 penalty points is life imprisonment by reference).
Even if we did decide to have a section with an AVS, all it would take it is one (1) complaint to the ABA about material in there, they would classify the content, and aussieveedubbers would be on the censorware block lists regardless of any action we would take to remedy the situation. That *WOULD* be a tragedy - no access from most workplaces, libraries, Internet cafes, etc, etc.
Anyway, it's a moot point. The AUP doesn't allow us to host nudity.
Andrew
BenettonVW 路
(I'm off Brads server..)
vanderaj 路
Where did I say prison? Prison is for the RC stuff and realistically I've never seen anything approaching that on here. Penalty points are $110 per penalty point.
Anyway, yes it is the worst case scenario. The censorship regime is weak, and the complaints based system does not work. The chances of anything actually happening is extremely remote. But if you run something and it's your arse on the line, you have to look at it and make a call on it. I have not weakened my arguments at all - I have simply enumerated what could happen. Anyway, if we're instructed in a take down notice to delete content, and we did, we'd probably be saved from being placed in the notice that is sent to the censorware makers. You don't want to get on those lists - we'd never get off them.
Anyway, if push came to shove and we acted as Spook seems to want us to act (laissez faire, screw the consequences), and we don't act in accordance with a hypothetical take down notice, it's $5500 a day for the administrators, and $27,500 for Brad. A day.
Despite what Spook thought, if a complaint had been made to ezboard, we could have lost aussieveedubbers back then if we'd stuck to our guns there too. Although I'm fairly certain that the admins would have been given an opportunity to delete the "offending" post before being dumped or having the post deleted for them.
Also I can't find the results of the poll that was conducted at the last one. The posts only go to June. Apparently, there were three choices, and if you added up the delete or block choices together, it would have outweighed the "leave" choice. I want to check this for myself. If the result of the last poll was indeed the case, then Spook is being disingenuous claiming the majority wanted pr0n on the board.
Andrew
KOM123 路
Quote BenettonVW:
----------------------------
(I'm off Brads server..)
----------------------------
Have we lost the forum founder?
[Edited on 30-9-2002 by KOM123]
Bugged Again 路
I think this whole topic has been a crock of shit.
As if you are all going to be fined or sent to prison for showing a girl witha pair of breasts standing next to a car and or a girl in a g-string. No-one is putting or has ever put someone being 'nobbed on a bonnet or in the ankle straps' on the site you have to go to purextc.com for that.
Come on guys get real, sounds like the whole topic has been analysed by a bunch of law or accounting students.
And say someone did complain and you got the letter saying there is some offending material on the site, i'd say some of the cars should be in that category, the stuff gets taken off forethwith and we keep on with the forum.
there is something called the real world on the other side of this board and i think its time people started to chill out. Seems like we have some extremists hanging around.
Is the ezyboard forum going to be resurrected with half the people there and the other half here, thats how civil wars start, but then we'll all be in prison so no-one will be here to fight it.
just my 2 bobs worth.
mood is anoyed 馃槧
BenettonVW 路
Bugged, read between the lines mate.
Kom, no, that was my problem with my picture... It is on Brads FTP and it might be dead..
vanderaj 路
Jim,
do you have a copy of that image? I can upload it to the forum and change your avatar URL to match.
Andrew
toplessbug 路
well i rekon its time to say i agree with bugged. This has gone on far too long and has been analysed to death and beyond. We now have the resignation of one of our founding members because of the actions of a vocal minority who by their own admission played with every enhancement technique to try and imagine some BITS?馃槧
KruizinKombi 路
I think Andrew may be a bit over-cautious, but he is acting in the best-interests of the forum, and I don't see why we need to have tits and bits on a Volkswagen forum.
As Brad has already suggested elsewhere, can't we just get back to talking about Volkswagens? If that's not what you're here for, then fuck off. (Does this thing really automatically censor? I guess I'm about to find out)
I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, but I am getting sick of the pathetic nit-picking. Geez guys, CHILL OUT!!!
vanderaj 路
It does auto censor one word, and you've found it! :-) It used to do more, but realistically, you hear them and worse every day. You'd have to a trappist monk to not know the words in the original list, so I trimmed it.
Interesting in knowing from members if we should remove the last one, which is the f-word. I'm personally happy to see it removed. It's not as if it's overused here, and the filter is comically simple to work around.
Also, pending any new arguments, I am putting in my 2c to Brad-n-Jim that this thread be locked. I think everything has been said, and it'll get us back to our regular dose of VW quicker.
Bugged Again 路
check out the nudity in the pics of the week post "Why you shouldn't flirt in chatrooms or forums"
Where does one draw the line and what would happen if it was a woman? 馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾馃榾
vanderaj 路
Let me talk to Brad about deleting this post. It's in poor taste rather than anything else.
Trust me, I've been looking for pink, and can't find it. But if we're to have no nudity, we're to have no nudity, even if you can't see anything.
Andrew
Cam 路
Get over yourself!
There was a vote.... having it go won! (or maybe it was a dead tie, can't remember) and one of those who voted very strongly against it was and still is a moderator. Which I think out does a compulsive forum user!
People don't like it and they voted, the next lot of votes voted for it to be locked so it could sink to the mirky depths and then be viewed by the skanks who like this sort of stuff and don't have the nads to walk into a club X and/or buy a ralph mag'.
C
tit's have their place, so do tires.... this place is for the tires!
Bugged Again 路
Andrew i was only pulling your leg. i thought the picture was quite amusing, disturbing but not offensive.
keep up the good work protesting against the beuracrats, someone needs to keep them honest.
Back in the 80s it was Frank Zapper fighting the rest of america against censorship in music. Everyone else in the industry was too scared to support him but reaped the benefits he managed to win.
Prost
Kurt
KruizinKombi 路
A lot of the people who supported Frank Zappa then are probably parents of teenagers now. I wonder if they all feel as strongly against censorship is they did back then?
Whether you mind offensive language and themes about drugs, sex and violence (or not) is irrelevant. Take a look at any research on the subject and see what its doing to kids. when the media present this type of behaviour as 'acceptable'.
There is a place for censorship, and unfortunately, many parents are not providing (or unable to provide) the right guidance & supervision for their children with regard to morality, so the beaurocrats have to do it.
Regardless of what we feel, the decision has been made for us anyway. Nudity is out, at least on Aussieveedubbers.com
57kombi 路
Andrew
You are doing it again by saying that YOU think this thread should be locked as You think that everything that needs to be said has been said?
As I have said before that is why you will lose members that have been on this forum since it started I.E. spook,
It is a forum which allows people to express themselves,,,,or in your case until you decied when it should stop.
vanderaj 路
In other news, Brad has decided that the nude bloke is to stay. If you have a problem with this, speak to him.
It was me who closed the other threads. As the main action had moved to this thread, it was time to close the other ones to allow on-topic discussions continue.
As you have proven, you can easily start another thread, so closing a thread does exactly one thing - allows the thread to *eventually* sink to the bottom.
As Brad will attest I have been asking before doing since last Friday.
And as for talking with members before making a decision, I don't going to force moderators / administrators to run a poll every time we need to do something to the forum. It's completely impractical.
I did point out that I would be closing the threads a few days ago. No one said anything, so I did close all but one.
Please let this thread die and get on with the VW stuff.
Andrew
70AutoStik 路
Bugged Again: You need to learn a bit about Zappa! (Mind you, even us old farts haven't completely figured him out - people are still "discovering" what he knew about music; shame the drugs did him in.)
Bugged Again 路
from what i know about him he was very much anti drugs,but his music was definately not & a great believer in freedom of speech and expression.
In time he will also be seen as one of the centuries greatest composers.
Kurt
Green T4 路
Seems to me that if you want nudity, there are many better sites to look at.....this is supposed to be a VOLKSWAGEN Forum.....the most disturbing aspect is that it has caused so much trouble, definately not worth it.
With the new system comes new rules, so learn to play with them, and put your egos & self interests aside.
56astro 路
WHY DON'T WE HAVE A POLL on who we would like (or dis-like) as moderators!!
Surely this can't be too impractical?
vanderaj 路
Anyone can create a poll in the same way you can create a new topic. Click "New poll" rather than "New Topic".
Andrew
70AutoStik 路
Then you really don't know much about Zappa! He did stop using drugs for about the last 10-15 years of his life - but he never lost his wierd sense of humour. He pulled pranks like the "pro-porn protest" to send up all sides of some quite ridiculous arguments. When he pulled such stunts he was mostly mocking the side the idiot press thought he was supporting. Unfortunately, it seems, most people didn't get it - hence some of the bizarre "histories," such as you've been reading. I realise this is really getting off topic - but I think this one deserves it.