Oil temperature

Just installed a oil temp guage(vdo) and dipstick sender(vdo) into a 71 superbug 1600 motor. In Qld what should the normal temp range be in C. Curently running 100 to 115 C. Outside air temp arond 20 C.

this is not an exact science, when your guage reads 100-15 pull over go and examine and smell the engine. if it's all good back there then all you have to worry about is when the guage reads higher like if it goes to 120 plus

115 is a good temperature, warm enough to boil off any water in the oil, but not hot enough to burn the oil itself. :thumb

This topic has been covered quite comprehensively, try doing a search through the tech section. 🙂

not bad for winter but whatch out in the summer months.

why does my engine run hot?
thers are many reasons the list is long

My engine builder told me that 125 deg C is the critical max temp. But he doesn't have his temp sender where the dip stick goes either.

100 - 115 deg C seems fine to me.

I have a VDO dip stick sender. On a warm winters day 23degC engine runs at 100 degC even under hard driving. Summer in Qld it's been up to 120degC. Opened the deck lid and temp went back down to 100degC.
Im actually toying with the idea of putting a set of slides on the hinges that can push the the top of the deck lid open electrically via a small actuator where the spring goes, similar to the porche oil cooler. Already have some of the components but not enough time .

i dont wanna start an argument but use a simple rule that,
try and keep your oil temp around 100 c.
115c on a day of 20deg c is running far too hot, as the summer months you can imagine what it will be.
i guess your using all the correct tinware and have the late engine lid with the 4 sets of vents?
also depending on whether you use a diptick sender or the sump plug type will also give you different readings. i have found that the dipstick sender is far more accurate.
even for me here in summer in central QLD, my 1600 never gets above 105deg c.
hope this helps
cheers
Andrew

I might just be unlearned or have an overcooling engine, but that seems a little warm, because I have almost the same engine and mine never gets over 95 degrees C when its like 25 degrees ambient/atmo temp (what the hell is ambient). In adelaide lately its been like 12, so it takes about ten minutes to get to like 75 if im lucky and never goes over even when i give it some stick (quite often). Anyways we are talkin about you so I'll shut up now.
Have u got enough oil in it?
Is is running lean?
My two cents worth.

Cheers.

PS. haha, awesome idea Kafer69

BTW- whats a bad smelling engine? (in regards to overheating).

Cheers again.

you can smell its hot, it's just a smell you'll know when it's in your nostrils.

GUYS, we all have guages and senders, I wager not 2 of them would read the same if put in the same position.

if your guage always reads the same temp when it's warmed up eg 110 go and have a look at the back if it don't smell, sound , look or feel hot then you have a reference point, some time in the future if it goes higher do the same check you will posibly find the point on your guage where the engine is too hot, then you know when to stop and check for probs or give the car a chance to cool down

Its gotta go over 100 to burn off all the condensation thats in your motor,OR SO IVE HEARD 😀

The bug has a whale tail with no vents in it. This might be keeping the temp up so i'm going to cut a vent in the top (looks like there is a space for it) and see if the temp comes down a bit. I'm a bit worried about summer temps.

good idea

the tails are ment to have a grill i reckon - to catch the air.
Just cover it with mesh. Any auto stor will have some. The ricers love it.
Should drop the temperature a bit

i've heard that whaletails work REALLY well, to the point that they actually over- cool. just have to play with the vents size and stuff to reach the happy medium. at the end of the day however, it's possible that you're just playing with symptoms of an engine that needs some help. as has been prementioned, check the tinware. i had a few warm readings before i realised the muffler guy had screwed up replacing the tinware above the extractors. ten degrees right there. on really hot days when i'm going a long way i use hoodjacks. lowers temp ten degrees too 😀
mines usually below 100, unless i'm having a good blatt, then up to 110 or so.

"critical max temp"
*loads spitball gun*

Here is a picture of the tail

I cut out the center and put in some grill as suggested. Lets hope this fixes the problem. If not I'll try something else. Doing a run up to toowoomba this weekend and will track temperature.

Very well done!
Looks like its always been there!
:thumb:thumb:thumb:thumb
Might see you in toowoomba!

VERY WELL DONE!!!


Exactly why that indent was there!

Another thought - where the louvres are above engine lid - the verticle ones. Behind them are horizontal ones.
You could cut bigger holes there.

I dont think it will be necessary. I will be amazed if you are not amazed at the difference.

:bounce:thumb:bounce:thumb:bounce:thumb

Will take her for a nice long spin today and let you all know how she goes 😉

(any excuse :thumb )

i bet it drops by 14 degrees...:thumb
*waits for result*

*picks nose*
...

any other guesses have until shani runs out of excuses for driving around beaming at everyone 😀

nah - i will be a bit more conservative. My hood jax dropped me 10 degrees

I will say 10 degrees :thumb

Hey that is still fine

You do 1/2 hour of free way driving at lunchtime at 65mph (105 km/hr) at 105 and your ok

I went to Newcastle on Monday at 7.30.
All the way at the speed limit 😀 well may be more and sat on 90. 1 1/2 hrs solid. 140kms.

Came home at lunch time ( i had fun on the way home again) and i was just under 105.

Im happy :thumb

Ok fellas here's your results....
Drove 30 - 45 mins, most of that sitting on 60-65mph along the motorway. Oil temp never got to 110. Sat around 105 maybe 108 at the most.
Not too bad, a big improvement.

Now I just gotta get a wheel alignment done I think, cause she starts to shudder a little bit between 60 and 70 mph depending on her mood and the road I'm on.....
It's never ending! 😀

Well done - If you can cruise at 100 - 105 km/hr for 45 mins and sit at 105 degrees that is not bad. :thumb:thumb:thumb

Also whach a steering damper in while you are at it.
About $35 from Micks
Simple to do and well worth it. Supers need a little bit of car for a great handling car

Go to www.superbeetlesonly.com and have a read in the Tech Section :bounce

put more holes in it 😀
my estimate was based on .. stuff.. and .. things...
looks like ten degrees drop. not bad:thumb
my hoodjacks do about the same. but i never really use them in the winter.loose tinware puts it up by about 5-10 degrees over the muffler. really nice job on the whaletail btw. very pro. 😀

kafer69 wrote:I have a VDO dip stick sender. On a warm winters day 23degC engine runs at 100 degC even under hard driving. Summer in Qld it's been up to 120degC. Opened the deck lid and temp went back down to 100degC.
Im actually toying with the idea of putting a set of slides on the hinges that can push the the top of the deck lid open electrically via a small actuator where the spring goes, similar to the porche oil cooler. Already have some of the components but not enough time .

I know someone who can sell you a set of Hoodjacks, that prop the engine lid open when it's hot or you can close it when it rains:bounce

Ben Durie wrote:Hi,
We advise you slow down if it gets to 110deg C , this is maximum oil temp even on a 30deg day , you have serious cooling problems if its at 115 on a cool day.
Most of our engines run around 90 deg.
regards
Ben

Engine builders who say run it to 125 ?? may be don't care about durability.
(my opinion , commence shooting )

Bang! And where did you pluck those figures from?

Hi Shani,
U could get even more serious & cut more louvres in your wing similar to mine, it should give u even more air than u need. I can run on the expressway at 4000rpm from the coast to sydney & I couldn't get the oil temp over 90d & that was in summer. I can get it up to 120+d on the track, & just putting around on the street I can't get it over 60d.
Being a convertible isn't helping u either since the air flow doesn't have a roof line to follow.
I suggest u don't cut out the horizontal louvres under the vertical ones unless u don't drive in the rain or your car isn't kept in the garage. water will just pour into your engine bay.
regards
Jak

Thanks Jak, I won't be cutting anything out for those very reasons. The car IS garaged but since she is about to become my only mode of transport I imagine I will be going out in the rain at some point...
:thumb

My EH, although watercooled and running a temp sender in the head to the water, would probably be similar oil temp as oil flows full on through head rocker gear.

It was running at a constant 105-110C after being built and the engine builder was freaking right out. He demanded I get it down to at least 90, and preferably closer to 80 as possible. I am going from 2 core heavy duty radiator to 4 core.

For power and reliability he wants to see it down to 80. If economy was my thing he said 90-95 would be what I am after.

The Dyno guy also said similar. He won't do the final tune up/ dyno run until I get it to sit on no more than 90 max on the road. The reason is he is planning on going sik and loading the car to the maximum pump, and it will get freaking hot. He dyno's a lot of cars, and he said the tough survive. It's not a case of wrecking it on the dyno, but showing it's weak points. If it is all strong, you will get a top reading of max power.

Then it is off to the track to record 1/4 mile times.

Nice Collection Jakriz!

Hi Shani

Does your top interfere with the stock cooling vents at all?

Hellbus, My motor is watercooled and runs about 80 - 90 all the time in this weather, it uses a thermostatically controlled oil cooler. In summer on a freeway it will see 120-130, this is as far as I can see a normal oil temp for a water cooled car, Im not sure what your your guys a saying, the oil needs to get over 100 to burn off moisture etc.

1302Steve

Steve I don't think the top is a problem. It clips on just above the standard vents, covering at most half a centremeter of the grill. I'm pretty happy to have brought the temp down by 10 deg at this point.
Next thing to try would be to change the Oil we are using to I think a thinner one.
She goes in for a wheel alignment and stuff on friday to see if we can't do something about the shudder at 60mph :thumb

:thumb

Hi Shani

Is your car a Superbug? I used to have bad shudders until I went to uruthane bushes in the sway bar and lower control arms, also tyry getting your wheels balanced on the car. When I ran 14 wheels my shudders were much worse, since going to 15s, 16s & now 17s I have no hint of a shudder. If you car is lowered you may need to give it more caster, the best way to do this by fitting and adjustable caster sway bar.

1302Steve

Thats one nice looking and I presume Expensive Whale tail.... Beautiful..... is the word.... I believe that having No SMOOTH Roofline for the air to flow over would be a major problem.. from what I have read , I thought up to 120 C was OK - over it too Hot... and talking about a Hot Engine... When an engine is Really HOT... like cooking hot.. it has a horrible smell about it... anyway You will have to wait until Summer to test it out... Do You have a thermostat fitted??? Anyone know the temp a type 3 1600 engine runs at??
:o:thumb:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:thumb

Does Your superbug have a thermostat fitted and working, it may be keeping the engine at that temperature due to the ambient temperature outside... and will adjust accordingly in the Summer..... I believe that is how a thermostat works.... although it probably needs adjusting.. ..
My name is Lee & I'm a Dubbaholic....

Rustbucket68 wrote:Just installed a oil temp guage(vdo) and dipstick sender(vdo) into a 71 superbug 1600 motor. In Qld what should the normal temp range be in C. Curently running 100 to 115 C. Outside air temp arond 20 C.

:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce

a thermostat shouldn't be affected by 'ambient' temperature, it should not work relatively. as far as i know most thermostats operate on a bi-metallic strip or coil method; the hotter they get, the more they change in size/ orientation. should have nothing to do with summer and winter... although if the thermostat was coupled to one outside the engine working in reverse with a homeostatic function of minus three point five degrees divided by the ambient temperature in calcutta over the barometric pressure stabiliser unit it would make much more sense 😀:alien

Ben Durie wrote:

VWCOOL wrote:

Ben Durie wrote:Hi,
We advise you slow down if it gets to 110deg C , this is maximum oil temp even on a 30deg day , you have serious cooling problems if its at 115 on a cool day.
Most of our engines run around 90 deg.
regards
Ben

Engine builders who say run it to 125 ?? may be don't care about durability.
(my opinion , commence shooting )

Bang! And where did you pluck those figures from?

We have done years of testing vw engines , if you run to 125deg oil temp and remove the pistons you will see the
burnt oil under the crowns and if you look further you will find much heat related damage.
If you keep the oil temp to 110 or below you won't get that result.
I don't use the hoodjax on my car, they are ugly in my opinion but I have 1 set in stock
if you want them $35

critical mass OK, but critical max ???
regards
Ben

Yeah, I reckon whale tails are ugly - and you can't take them off like hoodjacks. But I'm more interested in keeping my engien cool than worrying about the looks of my car. Where is the best place to measure oil temp? With a sender in the? How accurate are the dipstick senders?

Type 1 and type 4 thermostats work the same. Flaps stop the fan blowing air over the heads/barrels (and oil cooler in a Type 4) and a spring holds them open (maximum cooling) The thermostat is a copper bellows and pulls the flaps shut. As the bellows heats up from spent cooling air they heat up and expand allowing the flaps to open.
From memory the T1 thermo opens at ~70C and T4 ~80C (don’t quote me on these!!). Just remember this is the temperature of air off the heads/barrels and they almost open like a switch, fully open or fully closed.
Their purpose is ONLY to allow the motor to heat up quickly or stop over cooling in REALLY cold temps (I’d guess in sub zero temps).
Here in Oz they will always be fully open after the first 5-10 min. driving unless you live on a ski slope.
They always fail open, so unless the something jams them shut there’s no need to worry.

I believe the best place for the temp sender is to tap into the base of the engine to the side of the sump plate. This gets the sender into mixed oil and away from any metal lumps that cant retain and/or effect readings.
The dip stick place is to close to metal for my liking
That said i have mine in the rear pressure relief plug. (why - cause thats how it came 10 years and 3 motors ago) If anything this will give a higher reading cause it is near metal and it is in a hot passage out to the cooler. Plumbug Racer on SBO did several tests and this was hotter my 10F - so it gives me safety.

Yeah, I reckon whale tails are ugly - and you can't take them off like hoodjacks.

I didn't like my wing (whale tail is so 80's) at first so I'll agree with u there, but I can change my wing for my normal decklid in 23 seconds.
regards
Jak

Porsche designed them for a reason - besides resting you beer on when you are washing the car 😀

When set up properly they would really catch the air

All the porsche guys reckon that their oil temp doesn't go over 85d on the track!! i think that it has a lot to do with that big cool looking fan as well.
Jak

1302Steve

My temp sender is in the head so reads water temp not oil temp. I am not sure if or how much hotter oil is than water temp?

I remember having this conversation with all of you 8-10 months ago...
I dont think that there is a definitive answer.
There does seem to be a huge variation in the readings of different temp gauges and where they are placed in the engine.
Ideally it would be nice to all have external oil coolers in our vw's but even they come with complications.
I have a kombi (2 ltr) and I have a vdo temp guage fitted into my sump. At the moment it is running between 100-105 and in summer it gets up to 125. I know too high so I slow down or pull over for a while....simple

O.K. so we've managed to drop the temp of shani's bug by 10d . It does have a thermostat but I dont know if its working or not. Is there any real reason why we would need a thermostat in Qld. Should I look at removing it all togerther or fixing it if it is not working?

Is there any real reason why we would need a thermostat in Qld.

Mine is removed and my mechanic says I dont need night.

I was of the understanding that it was originally used because in european coutries its colder so it aided in warm up, Iv'e had big and small engines over the years and have never used them, never had a prob.

Oil temp dip sticks I believe are not accurate I believe the best way to get accurate oil temp is to tap into the sump and put a sender directly in where the oil gathers.

my 2ltr runs too cold

one advantage i could think of would be that if ur only doing 5 or 10min trips it would help the engine warm up, even up in qld and therefore reduce wear etc on the engine? my car (without thermostat) doesn't go over 80 in summer and mite reach 60 in winter on a long high speed run, it runs really cool😎

Well I have had a temp sender on a factory 1500 in a 1969 bug, 120 deg on the freeway easy !!

100-120 deg would be acceptable, less 10 deg with Hoodjaxs or a tale

I will always run 125deg on the track, Castrol have confirmed GP50 is good for 150deg all day long !
Sounds like all the people racing get similiar figures😀

Hey Shani. I have a 74 L Bug, and my wheel used to shudder from 60 kph onwards. I got a wheel alignment and replaced broken left lower ball joint, and the shuddering stopped. Would be a good idea to get ur suspension checked too 🙂

Cheers

Peter Leonard, if the Ambient Temperature has nothing to do with a thermostat, how come the engines get hotter in the Summer??? (Maybe because of the Hotter Ambient temperatures).....
The temperature here most mornings in the winter months is around 0C-2C , I Don't believe the thermostat would be open ALL of the time in those ambient temperatures.....

68AutoBug...Do you need glasses?

azz wrote:68AutoBug...Do you need glasses?

Ditto.........

Read my post further up the list on the operation of the thermostat.

To answer a few question:
The thermotat performs a specific function, to heat the motor up quickly. I doesn't matter if it's a 0deg day or a 40deg day, the motor still needs to warm up to prevent damage, excessive wear and poor fuel economy. If you remove the thermostat, just allow the motor to warm up before driving off.

68autobug, I think what Peter is trying to say is the thermostat switches at a fixed temperature regardless of the outside temp. So on a cold day it will take longer to get there.
I also think you will find the thermostat will fully open on a 0deg day also. Set it up correctly and let us know??

And finally PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE what ever you do, whether you have the thermostat of not NEVER remove the flaps!!! And that goes for type 1 and type 4

:vader :vader :vader :vader

jimmy1812 wrote:Hey Shani. I have a 74 L Bug, and my wheel used to shudder from 60 kph onwards. I got a wheel alignment and replaced broken left lower ball joint, and the shuddering stopped. Would be a good idea to get ur suspension checked too 🙂
Cheers

Do check indeed!
I found out that my lower left balljoint was broken:jesus
while I was driving. The front left guard just dropped on to the tyres. Looked cool that low, not much use on the road howerr. And this happened as I was turnin a slow corner after doing 110!

Cheers.

jakriz wrote:Yeah, I reckon whale tails are ugly - and you can't take them off like hoodjacks.

I didn't like my wing (whale tail is so 80's) at first so I'll agree with u there, but I can change my wing for my normal decklid in 23 seconds.
regards
Jak

You carry a spare decklid in your car??

[/quote]
You carry a spare decklid in your car?? [/quote]


Doesn't everyone?

I always think that if someone has their engine lid open at the top, they are indeed a VW Enthusiast.... and they are looking after their Air Cooled Engine.:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce:bounce

Shudder is gone and all is well. Paul redid the timing and now it's running at around 90deg at 70mph up the highway.
Looks like we've licked this one. Roll on Valla 😀

thass right, andy 😀

I'm going to bring this topic back again after reading the latest VW trends. It has an interesting article on mineral oil vs synthetic oil. Get a hold of it and have a read. I'm not about to change over but it is food for thought.
For those interested heat was measured in all areas between an engine running both oils under controlled conditions. The temp difference was quite significant HOWEVER with synthetic oil the engine tended to leak more than normal. Anyway a good read on a good topic.:thumb

Nononono,
not anothe oil thread :o:o:o

Hey Kafer69, Which oil ran cooler, the synthetic or mineral oil? (I've got synthetic in my car). It does seem to leak more than usual.

Synthetic noticeably.

hey my oil temp guage says the temp is only 60 - 80 degrees. is it just that my cooler is working really well or my guage is buggered?? confused fish.