Brake upgrades

Hi Guys, I have completed a disk brake conversion with the spindles and standars kit on the front of my daughters 71 beetle. I'm still not overly impressed with the braking, and given this will be her 1st car, I would like it to be as safe as possible. Am I missing something, is there a master cylinder change or something to be done to match the disk brakes that would improve the overall performance?

Sorry. The disks are on the front only

adjusted the rears?
bleed them?
if its a 71 it should of had front discs already?
pics of what you have may help...

your stock set up "should" be ok

Mine is with a half warm motor

But I have new rotors and pads
Maybe your discs are glazed or something
Old hoses and fluid can be a problem as well

It wouldnt be THAT much to do a whole new set up
rotors, drums, pads, hoses, fluid and refurbished calipers

As mentioned by Bizarre & STIdub, other components may be the culprit. Old flexible hoses can be devils, they can stretch when pressure is applied and rob braking energy, or be internally swollen and restricting proper fluid flow. There is also a prescribed method of breaking-in new discs and pads, which not many people bother with. Search on the net for more details.

A properly working beetle disc brake system can be extremely good for a non-assisted braking system..........

So, are you comparing it against a modern vacuum boosted system? ..or do you just have to push harder?

Uber Kafer wrote:Old flexible hoses can be devils, they can stretch when pressure is applied and rob braking energy, or be internally swollen and restricting proper fluid flow.

That's exactly the problem I have on the Type 3 but the original drum front. Normally reasonable braking but 3 years of near zero use has gummed things up a bit. Both front flex lines have a bad case of cholesterol arteries!

DH

ive got a 72 sbug which has the disc front end as standard. the old man and i fitted a vh40 or 44 which ever was smaller and its reduced my stopping distance greatly.

I take it the VH 40 is a brake booster out of something or other??

yeah its one of the universal ones. its work really well in my car , that said the stock in good condition works well also.

hey barls any pic's of that mod?

ill see if i can find one. its fitted to the passenger side in the same spot as the master cylinder does on the drivers. ill start looking now and see if i can find the pic

Thanks for the responses again. I will clarify a few points.
The car is a 71 but was an import so standard with drums all round.
I fitted the new rotors and calipers on the front only. The lines were the original so will check them and re bleed the entire system. Yes I did adjust the rears after installing new pads. And yes I guess I am comparing to modern day assisted brakes. The reason for the question was to gauge what I should expect out of this standard set up, as the car is for my daughters first car, and I would like to make it as safe and reliable as possible. Has anyone fitted a booster etc. What are the racers using, surely not standard!.

EF-EL ish falcon rear discs are a relatively easy fit, pics & info on my thread, hellbugged's, vwcool, & alot of others..

for a stock bug the stock brakes, maintained properly should be more than adequate, myself & my sister learnt to drive in mine, then it was my daily for a year or so, i wasnt gentle on brakes & it worked fine, though i knew it was an old beetle, locked them coming down a hill in torrential rain with 3 girls in it once but nothing major, still stopped at the lights at the bottom, tyre choice may of had something to do with that too, keep that in mind once the brakes are sorted

perhaps compare it to another beetle near you with known good brakes if possible?
location should help, alot of people are willing if asked nicely on here 👍

rear disc kits for like $700-800.... you can get better quality pads... hellbugged has them on the noth i think... drilled or slotted rotors to cool them quicker...


should really need big brakes on a beetle with a stockish engine... I believe that Joel has standard fronts with disc rear kit, and he has an ej22 powering his beetle. stops amazingly.

just put new stock discs on the front

A lot of "mild" racers use stock disc up front and type 3 rear drums - whick were bigger

that is an easy upgrade but parts are becoming hard to get

Hi

David ran 3 sessions at the supersprint without any trouble, hes using 944 rears but these wont mask poor performing front brakes.

His front brakes are new German rotors and early Type 3 callipers (pre 1972), these have a slightly bigger front piston than Beetles, they can be recognised by having twin pins and only having one bleed valve.

Type 3 rear drums are cheap upgrade for the rear.

Steve

barls wrote:yeah its one of the universal ones. its work really well in my car , that said the stock in good condition works well also.

The VH44 is a universal brake booster that we in the trade have been using for over 40 years,they are compact & efficient,reducing pedal pressures and stopping distances by an incredible amount. I have fitted dozens over the years to all types of vehicles,the fitment to the bug is easy,compact and very efficient.
I cannot understand why anyone would fit disc brakes without the vacuum assistance. Cheers Les

STIDUB wrote:adjusted the rears?
bleed them?
if its a 71 it should of had front discs already?
pics of what you have may help...

only supers got discs in the 70s
but yeah like above check your rears, cos with setup right stock discs and rear drums pull up amazingly well but the rears have to be perfectly adjusted

and +1 for the swollen hoses
caught me out once
looked perfect on the outside, but wouldnt pass any fluid

^^ hence why, i have new hoses since i have new calipers and discs... no point finding out later that you needed it!

All great responses guys, and a few options in there for an upgrade if I still feel it necessary.
Still wouldn't mind more detail on the VH44 booster fitment. I think this would be a popular mod for many on this forum if we seen how it had been done.

Hi

A booster wont fix poor performing brakes, it will only make them easier to operate for Nancy boys. You would need to run two boosters, one for each circuit.

Steve

this is not my car but another one we fitted one to.

Thanks Barls, thats what I was after. What did you do for vacuum?

mines tapped into the manifold balance tube.

geez one step forward to two steps back

why would u want to have a dinosaur single circuit brake system for the sake of having a booster?

if an 88 year old grandmother can drive her 70 bug without one (and trust me she knows 2 speeds, stopped and 50mph) and not crash it once in 40 years then most average Joe Blows should manage fine as well

Joel wrote:geez one step forward to two steps back

why would u want to have a dinosaur single circuit brake system for the sake of having a booster?

if an 88 year old grandmother can drive her 70 bug without one (and trust me she knows 2 speeds, stopped and 50mph) and not crash it once in 40 years then most average Joe Blows should manage fine as well

That was just what i was thinking also this would no longer comply with the ADRS for the vehicle assuming it came out with dual circuit cylinder as standard. If it came out with single circuit the easiest upgrade would have been a dual circuit system

I'm with you on this one I have no dramas with the stock dual circuit system. Properly adjusted drums and bleed system you should pull up in no time at all. Why over complicate the situation adding booster extra pipes etc.

yeah twin pin type three calipers and type three drums bendex ultimate pads and good fluid in my old beetle had the front discs red hot and only a little fade after a hard run down granya gap road. not many "normal" cars can do that.

Whatever,downunderxx asked a question and we supplied an answer,for anyones info this is a 1962 bug. To change to a dual system would still use the same pedal pressure.end of story.

I fitted one of those style boosters way back to a costomer car upon request.....sorry. I hated it.

The brakes seemed to have a mind of their own, very vague when operating, and wouldn't release until you were well off the pedal....pretty crazy stuff.
Stock works fine untill about 140 rwhp and a mad nut behind the wheel 🙂 .

The question here should be "what brand" of front caliper did you use with the disc conversion.

I raced for well over a decade with standard OEM brake parts (Type 3 brakes on a beetle) with NO probs and great pedal feel and response.

Recently I replace the drum brake frontend with discs on my 74 beetle. I used a "no name" copy caliper and the pedal feel is crap and the brakes feel worse than the original drums.......so what caliper did you use ?

Dont get suckered into using boosters and discs all round, you dont need it 👍

grumble wrote:Whatever,downunderxx asked a question and we supplied an answer,for anyones info this is a 1962 bug. To change to a dual system would still use the same pedal pressure.end of story.

Don't see how it would use the same pedal pressure for a start a single master cylinder has a bore diameter or 0.68" which has to supply to 4wheel cylinders of diameter .87" and .75".
where as a dual master cylinder has a bore diameter of 0.75 "( which is larger) and 2 separate pistons in the bore one circuit supplys the front calipers of daiameter 1.5" the other supplies the rear wheel cylinders diameter 0.68"so a dual master cylinder is like 2 single cylinders in one.

So by putting a dual master on a single circuit system will supply more pressure to the wheels cylinders and calipers. Because the bore is larger and there is more fluid in the bore being supplied to the system.

Pressure = surface area x Force.

End of Story!

downunderxx wrote:Hi Guys, I have completed a disk brake conversion with the spindles and standars kit on the front of my daughters 71 beetle. I'm still not overly impressed with the braking, and given this will be her 1st car, I would like it to be as safe as possible. Am I missing something, is there a master cylinder change or something to be done to match the disk brakes that would improve the overall performance?

Make sure the rear drums are adjusted up correctly and evenly. check the front calipers aren't sticking . Bleed the system of any air and make sure the free travel of the brake paedal is set correctly. if all this is ok and you still have problems try clamping one brake line off at a time to isolate which wheel is causing a problem. As some one mentioned check the brake hoses as these can sometimes swell under pressure. If you have a single circuit master change it to dual circuit master. and if you already have one of these maybe one of the circuits in the master is leaking. Also make sure that the bleed nipples on the calipers are pointing up.