Hi All, I am still involved in the marine industry until my Vw & corvair venture gets fully underway, just an interesting observation, we service & repair many boats and lately, we have had a run of a few inboard motors with sticky valves and bordering on seizing in their guides. Turns out the fuel available from the marina is the cheap & nasty E10 that is also available from some service stations. Now I know you lot are all switched on, but for those that think they are getting cheap fuel by putting this crap into their pride & joys, THINK AGAIN!! infact even the crap that they call unleaded is below standard!! want to look after your motor, put premium in the tank. I know its expensive but at least your valve train is getting some form of lubrication. If you still want to use the basic unleaded, buy some two stroke oil and add 200mm for every forty litres of petrol. I rang a few automotive machine shops and they can NOT keep up with a major influx of cylinder head work!!🤪 cheers Frank
robb ·
hi volksvair if you use premium do you still have to use an additive such as nulon i have been useing it it with normal unleaded
VolksVair ·
Hi Rob, no need for any additives for premium fuels, nulon is good for normal unleaded. I used to run premium in my harley and allways threw in a small bottle of octane boost but that was just a psychological thing🤪 cheers Frank
1303Steve ·
Hi
The bad news is that all 91 ron unleaded is going to be E10, so it like 95 or 98 form then on, bloody greenies.
Steve
ian.mezz ·
yes they are already changing the green pumps back to yellow so everybody is tricked into buying it.
Its all about profit🥲🥲
amazeer ·
That might just be a NSW thing, not sure. The pamphlets and pumps say its a NSW government regulation.
68AutoBug ·
Yes, its a NSW Government thing...
as Ethanol in petrol is illegal in Westen Australia
[at least it was last time I looked]
ALL New service stations in NSW will have E10 instead of normal unleaded..
and then normal 91RON unleaded will be phased out totally by July next year.. Large Servos first...
We have a new BP servo in Scone...
NO normal unleaded... ONLY E10...
the Large Yellow ETHANOL stickers have now been reduced to a small size...
and where it wasn't suitable for many uses...
it seems now its OK to use it in everything....??
I filled My beetle up twice with BP E10...
put in My new SVDA dizzy and tried to tune the engine...
I was thinking of taking to someone else to tune..
went to the Nationals in Sydney...
Car went like a hairy goat [that means terrible..lol]
filled up with Unleaded in Sydney and drove home... 300 kms
beetle went great...
I have now tuned it...
and it does all the right things...
My Son tells Me that Normal unleaded is still available at many small service stations...
so, I will be looking now for 91RON without ethanol...
or going back to 95RON unleaded..
Sooner or later We will have to make the transition to PREMIUM unleaded fuel... 95 or 98RON..
LEE
VolksVair wrote:Hi All, I am still involved in the marine industry until my Vw & corvair venture gets fully underway, just an interesting observation, we service & repair many boats and lately, we have had a run of a few inboard motors with sticky valves and bordering on seizing in their guides. Turns out the fuel available from the marina is the cheap & nasty E10 that is also available from some service stations. Now I know you lot are all switched on, but for those that think they are getting cheap fuel by putting this crap into their pride & joys, THINK AGAIN!! infact even the crap that they call unleaded is below standard!! want to look after your motor, put premium in the tank. I know its expensive but at least your valve train is getting some form of lubrication. If you still want to use the basic unleaded, buy some two stroke oil and add 200mm for every forty litres of petrol. I rang a few automotive machine shops and they can NOT keep up with a major influx of cylinder head work!!🤪 cheers Frank
ian.mezz ·
yeah the smaller old petrol stations cant keep E10 because their in ground fuel tankS are to old,🤪🤪🤪🤪
68AutoBug ·
ian.mezz wrote:yeah the smaller old petrol stations cant keep E10 because their in ground fuel tankS are to old,🤪🤪🤪🤪
that may explain why I've seen many country service stations being dug up and closed for a while.. then reopen...??
I haven't checked the local Shell servo to see if they still have normal unleaded...??
it was dug up and closed a few weeks ago...
LEE
h ·
I use 98 with flashlube always n haven't struck any probs over the last 6 or 7 or so years now
works for me
vw54 ·
yes they are already changing the green pumps back to yellow so everybody is tricked into buying it.
that happened to me at a BP service station didnt have my glasses on
the bad thing about E10 is that it deteriorates the rubber in the fuel lines
I did a test on the high pressure line i have fitted in my car as it runs EFI and the hose stood up to the petrol so you can purchase the HP fuel line from Pirtek and use on cars running E10
vlad01 ·
I use E10 in my commodore. Runs great in that as appose to regular. the V6 doesn't like unleaded 🙁
things I noted: ran with more power, stable idle (no stalling unlike UL) runs cooler, economy was slightly better. My concussion was that it was exact performance in all ways to premium in my commy.
VW ? i can't say the same as I only run 95 RON prem in it.
ethanol advantage: high RON and AKI
Disadvantage: not suitable for old technologies. ie heads requiring leaded fuels.
Carby engines should NOT run E10 without rejetting and then using it always.....NOT FOR ME. 98 preferebly all the time, and BP is up to 10% better in economy and performance.
vlad01 ·
I am going to get my commy a new EEPROM (aka tune) to recalibrate all the changes I have made to it.
guess its like re jetting in the old school sense.
1500S ·
68AutoBug wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:yeah the smaller old petrol stations cant keep E10 because their in ground fuel tankS are to old,🤪🤪🤪🤪
that may explain why I've seen many country service stations being dug up and closed for a while.. then reopen...??
I haven't checked the local Shell servo to see if they still have normal unleaded...??
it was dug up and closed a few weeks ago...
LEE
Noticed another new servo going in on the Muswellbrook side of Scone Lee. What's that one? Another BP to get you going either way!
Not sure if a carbie engine is the same as injected but as I've posted here before, a Commodore uses around 10-15% more fuel if E10 is used on the 400km run to Tamworth. By using it, you are using the same amount of regular unleaded plus 100cc of ethanol. Maybe the Greenies and Politicians should do some engineering mathematics to see they are saving nothing, just costing everyone more.
Maybe if they started taxing bullshit, Canberra and the state governments would raise enough loot to give the rest of us a 50% tax cut!!
DH
matberry ·
1500S wrote:Not sure if a carbie engine is the same as injected but as I've posted here before, a Commodore uses around 10-15% more fuel if E10 is used on the 400km run to Tamworth. By using it, you are using the same amount of regular unleaded plus 100cc of ethanol. Maybe the Greenies and Politicians should do some engineering mathematics to see they are saving nothing, just costing everyone more.
Maybe if they started taxing bullshit, Canberra and the state governments would raise enough loot to give the rest of us a 50% tax cut!!
DH
👍👍😂😂
vlad01 ·
my commodore used to get around 330km per tank on E10 and only 250km on UL. I don't know but it hates unleaded, must be to low octane for it but it shouldn't as its on series 2 buick!?!?!
My new setup which is rebuild everything minus the shell, now it gets 550-600Km per tank with E10. holy molly! yes did a few mods 😀
I know a guy with a XR6 turbo and he only runs E85 as it wont run right on even supper prem. Highly modified though.
With ethanol the higher the compression the more power and efficacy engines tend to run. think about this > High RON is harder to ignite and burns slower, therefore takes more heat or pressure to unlock those BTU's.
Advantage of this is that its less likely to detonate by itself. So if you put high RON fuel into an engine that is designed to run a lower RON the engine will NOT release the full energy from the fuel resulting it worse
performance than lower RON fuel (also = bad economy). Doing the opposite by running low RON in high comp engine will detonate and cause, well damage.
So if you have a high compression engine, running ethanol will give you better economy simply because lower RON runs less efficient.
This is just based entirely on engine design and can be different depending on which design. I have experimented on my V6 for well over 50,000 and result speak for them selves.
this VW country here so most of this doesn't apply unless you motor is running high comp of course and modified heads to suit.
ian.mezz ·
race cars use that E85 and they use about 3 times more petrol to do the same amount of laps.🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪
vlad01 ·
yes high % ethanol is less mileage but not that much.
here is some info. lol 3% different in E10 from regular. lol I think the 4 extra RON out weighs that anyway.
Maybe the Commodores we have are old compared to yours! 🥲 One is a VY 2004 and the other is a 2007 VE and both vehicles return at best 10% more fuel useage on a number of trips up the New England to Tamworth using E 10, the VE being the worst on one trip at near 15% more fuel. What you lose on the way up onto the New England area, you gain coasting more down hill on the return. This gives a clear 800 km trip of average conditions to give a clear view of the economy with very little traffic, especially on the Putty Rd section.
After smelling a rat, we started filling with regular unleaded and both cars returned to their "normal" consumption, the VY always being just that bit better at around 8.5 litres/100km on each run EXCEPT yesterday when I gave the VY a bit of a hurry-up when a "white van man" gave me the $hits near Bulga. 😂 Didn't want him in front through the windy section!
Even at a mere at worst 2% more E10 fuel used costs more than the regular unleaded price generally so once again, it's not really saving us money OR saving the planet.
I will always dispute that these cars get better economy and power using E10 unless they have been specifically tuned to only use E10. Maybe that would make a difference. If we use methanol, ethanol etc the consumption is always more than petrol. Add some nitromethane and away goes more economy. Anyone tried to add 10% nitromethane to petrol to see what that does. 🙅
DH
vlad01 ·
mine newer !?! haha nice one. mine is an old VP commodore. My friend has a VY and his hates anything less that 98 RON and yes his economy get worse the lower the grade of fuel, naturally of course.
What happen to the good old leaded days. geez! everyone can agree that super was the shizzle.
haha red gold 😀
1500S ·
vlad01 wrote:mine newer !?! haha nice one. mine is an old VP commodore. My friend has a VY and his hates anything less that 98 RON and yes his economy get worse the lower the grade of fuel, naturally of course.
What happen to the good old leaded days. geez! everyone can agree that super was the shizzle.
haha red gold 😀
Thought something must be wrong your one if it was only getting that on a tank full. 300km! We had a VN back in '88 and that got at least to Coffs Harbour, maybe Grafton on a tank. An EF ford with a slightly bigger tank (68 litres??) made it to Grafton with some to spare. With the later models we get well into Victoria down the Hume from here at Richmond on a full tank, near 700 km from memory but not much left. The bloody Type 3 Notch gets better economy than that VP of yours!
Enough of the rubbish Falcadores!😂 The VW gets around 9 litres/100 on a run and I've been using regular unleaded since rebuild in 2001, however it's only done around 11,000 km!! Most likely use premium now if the E10 crapp takes over. Only United and Caltex here now as BP in the metro area only have E10.
DH
vlad01 ·
Yes there was a lot wrong with it. injectors, O2 sensor, auto shifting to low rpm. Now that all fixed with the following list
Also I beg to differ on the type 3 being better on economy. dam mine took 4 tanks to get from bondi to kyneton in victoria.
but then again the motor was totaled by the time I got back. so much for low k motors driven by old ladies 🙁
70,000km original engine wasted 😬😢
oh well plan to tos it anyways for EFI turbo.
68AutoBug ·
Found some "normal" unleaded in Belmont Caltex Woolies
today...
wasn't in My beetle so I'll still have to do the rounds to find some of the good stuff..
Fellow at the Woolies caltex says that they will have normal unleaded until next year....
but, maybe He only knows what He's heard..
that the government in NSW is phasing out Unleaded and phasing IN 91RON with ethanol by July 2011..
I won't be buying E10 again...
Maybe the ethanol is too dry for the valve guides??
so, I might add an additive in the fuel for a while..
and use NONE E10 fuels from now on...
including the lawn mower... lol..
whipper snipper.... ??
LEE
vlad01 ·
yeah I see your logic.
lawn mower is A.C.E
1500S ·
vlad01 wrote:Yes there was a lot wrong with it. injectors, O2 sensor, auto shifting to low rpm. Now that all fixed with the following list
Also I beg to differ on the type 3 being better on economy. dam mine took 4 tanks to get from bondi to kyneton in victoria.
but then again the motor was totaled by the time I got back. so much for low k motors driven by old ladies 🙁
70,000km original engine wasted 😬😢
oh well plan to tos it anyways for EFI turbo.
Never trust "a little old lady" as well as many engine re-conditioners!!! The good VW engine is the one you build yourself if you want reliability! That way you know what goes into it and the labour costs are really low! I trusted Repco in 1968 to grind the big end journals for me after I'd ground the mains to near max design limit on 0.010" first under only to find they had given me near 0.002" built in wear before I run it! They seemed a bit shocked at the sight of a micrometer being produced before paying. Got a good discount and they still had to grind to next size.
Hope the EFI goes well for you.
DH
Phil74Camper ·
How did petrol compare in the 'olden days'? Not quite as well as you might think.
Laws specifying the octane rating of petrols for sale did not come in in Australia until 1955. The octane ratings, and changes over the years, were as follows:
Jun 1955 - Standard 79 octane, Super 90 Octane
Aug 1959 - Standard 83, Super 93
Nov 1962 - Standard 85, Super 95
Apr 1964 - Standard 87, Super 97
Aug 1968 - Standard 89, Super 98
Aug 1979 - Standard 89 and 92, Super 97
July 1985 - Unleaded 91, Premium Unleaded 93
July 1987 - Premium Unleaded 95
As for Ethanol - it may or may not be good for cars, but should be avoided in boats - ethanol absorbs water.
From the Car Advice website: "Petrol contains more energy than ethanol. If you burn one litre of ethanol you get 23.5 million joules of energy. If you burn one litre of petrol you get 33.5 million joules. That means there’s about 30 per cent less energy in a tank full of ethanol, compared with the same volume of petrol. And that means there’s about three per cent less energy in E10 compared with regular petrol. And that means fuel consumption goes up by three percent if you use E10. So if it’s not at least three per cent cheaper than regular petrol, you’re ripping yourself off. It also means if you ran a car on 100 per cent ethanol, fuel consumption would increase by more than 40 per cent. (Although it’s not advisable to do that. Car engines don’t like to start in the cold on E100. Which is why E85 is pretty much the upper limit for ethanol/petrol blends.) You need to burn 1.4 litres of ethanol to get the same energy as one litre of petrol. (Cruising range drops on E10, too – something long-distance drivers need to consider.)
We have had several customers come in saying that with E10 fuel they are getting 100 - 200km less per tank!
As stated earlier, Ethanol absorbs moisture, its this mix that causes problems with rubber components, if you eliminate the moisture in your tank (we recommend interject fuel treatment) you eliminate the problems caused by the ethanol. But you still get poor economy.
We have seen soo many cars come in running rough and cutting out, all caused by E10, not to mention the fuel pumps (electric) that have died!
We recommend premium fuel for all cars.
I have been running a 1916cc in a beetle for 12 years on premium fuel with no addatives for well over 100,000km no problems!
Cheers, Brendon
vlad01 ·
1500S wrote:
vlad01 wrote:Yes there was a lot wrong with it. injectors, O2 sensor, auto shifting to low rpm. Now that all fixed with the following list
Also I beg to differ on the type 3 being better on economy. dam mine took 4 tanks to get from bondi to kyneton in victoria.
but then again the motor was totaled by the time I got back. so much for low k motors driven by old ladies 🙁
70,000km original engine wasted 😬😢
oh well plan to tos it anyways for EFI turbo.
Never trust "a little old lady" as well as many engine re-conditioners!!! The good VW engine is the one you build yourself if you want reliability! That way you know what goes into it and the labour costs are really low! I trusted Repco in 1968 to grind the big end journals for me after I'd ground the mains to near max design limit on 0.010" first under only to find they had given me near 0.002" built in wear before I run it! They seemed a bit shocked at the sight of a micrometer being produced before paying. Got a good discount and they still had to grind to next size.
Hope the EFI goes well for you.
DH
Yeah I got the log. It did 44k miles from 71 to 85 then another 2k miles since then. also i did the 900km trip from bondi that killed it. drank like 5L of oil on the trip alone. now it smokes like a chimney, knocks and now starting with pre ignition. plugs are drenched in oil 🙁
Phil74Camper ·
VWs that get laid up for long periods of time (ie not many km over many years), tend to suffer corrosion on the insides of the cylinder walls. The steel cylinders get a fine coating of rust on the insides from sitting; more on the top and sides than the bottom (from sitting flat of course). Then, after a few years, you start it and the rust gets scraped away by the rings. This ruins them, and you get oil passing them by and into the combustion chamber, where the oil clogs your plugs. The rust particles stay in the oil (unless you change it), and get circulated all through the whole engine since VWs don't have an oil filter. I bet if you do a compression check, it will be down on all cylinders.
For engines / cars in storage, the usual procedure is to turn the motor over every few weeks to put a thin film of oil on the cylinders. But you can't help it if a previous owner doesn't do that.
95-octane 'Premium' is what we should all be using in stock air-cooled VWs (although Shell doesn't seem to sell 95). Yes it's more expensive than 91 or E10, but that's the price of owning a VW and looking after it properly. 98-octane 'Ultra-premium' is fine (and sometimes necessary) for modified, high-compression VWs, but is not necessary on stock-spec engines.
matberry ·
Yes Phil, to add to that, I recently rebuilt a stock 2 liter that had sat for 10 years, it broke two valve springs they were so rusty, the first got replaced, the second was after a further 100 km and caused the piston to hit the valve which lunched the engine. The internal wear was unbelievable and the sludge was like grinding paste even after a recent service by a 'reputable' vw specialist....
Phil74Camper ·
Yes Matt, those are the sorts of things we don't normally think about. An engine that 'sits' for years will have some valve springs sitting under non-stop compression, some not. They won't have 'aged' equally. Some valves will be sitting open, letting air/moisture into the combustion chamber and corroding the seats, others will be closed or nearly so. Some of the pushrods will sit with compression strain on them, some won't. Most of the cam lobes will be out in the open, rusting, while one small section will be riding against the lifter. The oil sits in the bottom of the crankcase and slowly turns to sludge. The last oil drains out of the bearings and oil lines. On rainy days like last week the cold moist air in your garage will eventually find its way into a closed crankcase, given enough time, and settle into the oil.
Then, months or years later, we go and start it!
I sometimes wonder how they manage cars in auto museums to stop them from deteriorating. I guess many of them just never run again. But the ones that are 'active' would have to be started and run on a regular basis to minimise these problems. That's what they do at the Bowden collection, for example.
Back onto ethanol - another reason why you should avoid E10 in old VWs is because ethanol absorbs water (as we've said). Old VWs have steel fuel tanks - they will corrode because the fuel has water in it, which it absorbs out of the air. Modern cars have plastic fuel tanks, which eliminates that problem at least.
Modern Brazilian VWs are designed to run on Ethanol, up to E100, but are especially built for it with the correct fuel system components for that fuel. They even have engine computers that adjust for different E concentrations for E10-E100.
vlad01 ·
the corrosion happens mainly when you get phase separation in low % Ethanol fuels. ie E10. But once you get to 70% or more water will not effect parts, metal and phase separation wont occur.
one of the best advantages of ethanol is its cheap.
E85 for example costs 35 cents per L.
bajachris88 ·
That explains why ages ago when i went to the wreckers i saw hyundais with plastic fuel tanks. PLASTIC! GAH!
You can get paint/inside fuel tank coating kits from memory, can't ya?
How could u phase out unleaded. what retards.
They should have a pump that pumps out pure unleaded, and a tank under ground with pure ethanol. And if you want to save teh dosh by going ethanol, the pump sucks up a percentage from both and mixes it throguh the nozzle on the spot.
👍
But lets face it, beaurocrats aren't 'cool'.
vlad01 ·
Yes por15 make a fuel tank inner coating system.
Yes one day we will have to face changing to different fuel as one day oil will run out.
best match seems to be ethanol, plus you can run comp ratios upto 20:1 👍
after all its best suited for race/performance engines.
bajachris88 ·
So what prep work is required to run ethanol comfortably? Right rubber fuel lines, and simply jetting?
stock valve train all dandy to suit it?
Well... i spose it beats LPG...
Joel ·
Phil74Camper wrote:Yes Matt, those are the sorts of things we don't normally think about. An engine that 'sits' for years will have some valve springs sitting under non-stop compression, some not. They won't have 'aged' equally. Some valves will be sitting open, letting air/moisture into the combustion chamber and corroding the seats, others will be closed or nearly so. Some of the pushrods will sit with compression strain on them, some won't. Most of the cam lobes will be out in the open, rusting, while one small section will be riding against the lifter. The oil sits in the bottom of the crankcase and slowly turns to sludge. The last oil drains out of the bearings and oil lines. On rainy days like last week the cold moist air in your garage will eventually find its way into a closed crankcase, given enough time, and settle into the oil.
Then, months or years later, we go and start it!
Trick is to turn them over regularly
Ive still got a few good vw engines under the house that i turn by hand every few weeks
My 1776 hasnt run for over a year but i know i could bolt it in the bug tomoro and drive to cairns no worries.
That spare engine of mine thats in my hibernating bug vid on youtube that fired up after 3 years, same deal, its now a daily driver in a mates splitty. He's happy as a pig in shit with it
68AutoBug ·
bajachris88 wrote:So what prep work is required to run ethanol comfortably? Right rubber fuel lines, and simply jetting?
stock valve train all dandy to suit it?
Well... i spose it beats LPG...
You need to run two stroke oil in the ethanol fuel Chris. IMHO
to lubricate the valve guides..
and You can have diaphram problems in Your carburetor
when the ethanol attacks them...
also the fuel pump diaphrams..
it can also cause rust in fuel tanks...
ethanol is bad news...
Local Shell servo is telling people to use 95 or 98 premium petrol in 4 stroke lawn mowers...
so, I won't be using any ethanol in My cars.... again..
If its causing so much trouble...
Why must NSW people have to put up with it...????
Maybe We will have to move up to Queensland with Chris...lol
LEE
I WILL NEVER USE ETHANOL AGAIN..
DITTO 50 TIMES...
vlad01 ·
efi is the best way to go for E
and don't bronze silicate valve guides suit E very well?
bajachris88 ·
68AutoBug wrote:Maybe We will have to move up to Queensland with Chris...lol
😂 haha, ur welcome to 🙂. Be nice to have a neighbour or 2 with dub passions around the corner. bbq, beers and cars, be a good day out 🙂.
ian.mezz ·
68AutoBug wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:yeah the smaller old petrol stations cant keep E10 because their in ground fuel tankS are to old,🤪🤪🤪🤪
that may explain why I've seen many country service stations being dug up and closed for a while.. then reopen...??
I haven't checked the local Shell servo to see if they still have normal unleaded...??
it was dug up and closed a few weeks ago...
LEE
yeah its a great cleaner and the petrol station dont want to clean all the rust and stuff out of there big tanks as it stuff em🤪🤪🤪
But its ok for you car😂😂
Craig S ·
After all this talk about E10, coincidentally, there is an article about a Beetle running on E85 in the April edition of UltraVW which I got at the newsagent this week.
Owned by Tomi Seppala it's a 1952 model that was running a 2720cc engine.
I quote:
“To convert a conventional spark-ignition engine vehicle to run on Bioethanol requires the adjustment of the ignition timing, and possibly the fitting of a larger fuel tank due to the fuel's low energy density. Fuel lines should also be changed for correctly rated material as alcohol fuels degrade certain types of rubber (and accelerates the corrosion of some metals).”
The article also suggests that on E85 you use about 50% more fuel on a 'per mile' basis.
But.... apparently with bioethanol you can have a much higher compression ratio, so this particular gentleman was able to up his HP by somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20%. Although it doesn't offer much in the way of direct info, the article suggests that E85 is a 'cooler burning' fuel.
Apparently that wasn't enough for Tomi, because now he's moving to a new engine with 2724cc and a 11.9:1 compression ratio. And just in case you were wondering, he is running EFI.
Think I'll stick with my 98RON unleaded though.
Cheers
Craig
vlad01 ·
only 11.9:1?? hell he could of gone easily to 18:1 or there about.
lol no wonder he was getting such poor mileage 🙄
all that you mention was exactly what I was on about in the last E10 thread.
Craig Torrens ·
Trick is to turn them over regularly
Ive still got a few good vw engines under the house that i turn by hand every few weeks
That's one of the worse things to do..........it wipes the remaining oil off the bearings every time you turn it by hand.