Rudi runs it in his Beetle sports sedan to great effect, apart from jetting and retuning what would need to be done to air cooled motor to use this stuff, apparently its well over 100 octane.
Steve
Doctor ·
E85 runs cooler, and burns cleaner, I cant see a need for anything other than Jetting and Retuning for it to run nicely...
1303Steve ·
Hi
I wonder how it will affect steel fuel tanks and lines.
Rudi runs it in his Beetle sports sedan to great effect, apart from jetting and retuning what would need to be done to air cooled motor to use this stuff, apparently its well over 100 octane.
Steve
E10 unleaded with ethanol is Now called BIO-unleaded
and My beetles engine doesn't like it..
I've been told that E10 gives You approx 10% less fuel economy...
so, what happens when its E85... YIKES...
they are adding 15% of petrol to it otherwise it would be moonshine.. lol and people would drink it.... lol
especially at $1.00 a litre.. lol
LEE
PS: many modern cars cannot use E10 ...
so, really nothing yet can use E85 ?? Lee
68AutoBug ·
1303Steve wrote:Hi
I wonder how it will affect steel fuel tanks and lines.
Steve
Why would it affect steel fuel tanks etc Steve??
water in fuel tanks cause them to rust but E85 will absorb the water.... !!
Most people were concerned about ethanol with rubber seals
LEE
1500S ·
Even GMH stated that you would have to get used to filling up more regular as the engines will use more much more volume of the E85 stuff. Remember, as it stands with E10, the engine will use around 10% more so where's the actual savings????
DH
Phil74Camper ·
The Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries has a website list of which cars can run E10. Fuel injection systems can compensate for the different properties of E10 but carburettor engines cannot. Lee ethanol is hydroscopic - it absorbs water. The water in the fuel will corrode steel components - just because the ethanol absorbs water (up to a point) doesn't mean the water 'disappears'. It's still there, just mixed with the fuel. And yes, ethanol attacks rubber (and some plastic) seals.
The only Volkswagens than can use E10 are fuel-injected models made after 1986.
All other Volkswagens - which mean every one made prior to 1986 - must NOT use ethanol. Use normal 95-octane unleaded.
E85 is another kettle of fish entirely. Your car would have to be built especially to handle it - just as you would if you were running on methanol or another (almost) pure alcohol fuel. Plastic fuel tank (or plastic-coated steel tank); stainless lines; ethanol-compatible seals; fuel-injection or carb designed for ethanol and calibrated accordingly.
Brazilian VWs can run on it, but they are built that way from the factory with fuel system components designed for alcohol. Their modern engine control system is called 'Flex Fuel', which allows them to run on anything from E10 to E100 (pure ethanol) automatically. The computer detects the ethanol concentration and adjusts the fuel delivery accordingly. In fact, their current range of VWs develop slightly more power on E100 than on E10, becuase their engines are optimised for ethanol.
Alcohol is a good racing fuel because it has a good resistance to pre-ignition (that is, a high 'octane' rating), so the engine can be built with a higher compression ratio. However the energy content of the fuel (per volume) is not as great as petrol, so you need to burn a lot more of it. The trouble with alcohol and racing is that if there's an accident and it catches fire, it burns with an almost invisible flame.
ian.mezz ·
the v8 super-cars had to do a lot of tuning with their aftermarket computers,
and it took a lot of time because it dissolved some parts in the fuel system🙅🤪🤪
bajachris88 ·
hmm i already got stainless 6mm an 8mm ID fuel lines....
pity renault doesn't recommend ethanol based fuels... ( for the turbo carbs of mine )
Can u get plastic coating kits for the fuel tank? Or best bet is to retrofit? Are plastic tanks easy to 'plastic weld' back together if you need to shorten dimensions for a good fit? At least a fuel tank from a later car would be ready for fuel injection, and probably be able to score one with an internal fuel pump instead too! (like the korean model cars... etc. etc.)
vlad01 ·
Provided that you either have correctly mapped EFI or correctly jetted carbs and a CR minimum of about 15:1 upto about 18:1.
It will go like a shower of $hit. But energy content is less so it will drink about 30-40% more fuel.
Joel ·
I honestly can not understand what people are crying about with fuel prices.
Just run premium in them FFS
If your timing is set right it will run better and get better economy
The NRMA reckons the average motorist does 15,000kms a year and running on prem over unleaded will cost an extra $100 per year with todays prices
Big deal, thats under $2 a week and I'll bet half of those surveyed would drive thirsty falcodoores
It's not much in the scale of things when you look at the $$s put into a car in a year
It cost me $1600 this year to keep 2 cars registered and insured and I average 30,000kms a year so an extra $200 on top of $1600 really is FA your honour.
Noone said car ownership is cheap
A good percentage of the cars coming out of the showrooms now have to run on premium anyway, so it's gonna dissapear any time soon
68AutoBug ·
1500S wrote:Even GMH stated that you would have to get used to filling up more regular as the engines will use more much more volume of the E85 stuff. Remember, as it stands with E10, the engine will use around 10% more so where's the actual savings????
DH
THAT IS SOMETHING EVERYONE AGREES ON DALLAS...
Use Ethanol equals lower fuel economy...
but people get sucked in by the cheaper advertised price...
Coming back from Valla, I Paid $1-46 litre for 95 RON fuel
near Newcastle...
YIKES...
luckily My beetle liked that fuel...lol
cheers
LEE
1303Steve ·
Hi
I was not looking at this as a money saving exercise, more from a performance side of things.
Steve
Craig Torrens ·
Evo's are seeing around 10-15% power increase once the ECU is tuned for the E85...........but that is with a change of tune, increasing the injectors to suit the fuel and replacing the fuel pump. Its also a corrosive fuel so keep that in mind.👍
SuperOwen ·
For racing similar benefits to methanol but slightly different. Should be ideal for hot street beetles as the additional fuel volume and evaporative qualities should equal cooler running. One issue i have heard for racing engines is a lack of consistancy, seeing as it is a pump fuel, not an expensive race blend sold by the drum like VP methanol c16 etc etc.
Most aftermarket injection gear will state if its alcohol compatable. OE stuff might require a little research.
I believe red baron runs e85???
Ollie ·
Aparently E85 goes off in your tank too?
I've herd that it has a tank life of only 2 (ish) weeks?
Could be an old wives tale
1500S ·
68AutoBug wrote:
1500S wrote:Even GMH stated that you would have to get used to filling up more regular as the engines will use more much more volume of the E85 stuff. Remember, as it stands with E10, the engine will use around 10% more so where's the actual savings????
DH
THAT IS SOMETHING EVERYONE AGREES ON DALLAS...
Use Ethanol equals lower fuel economy...
but people get sucked in by the cheaper advertised price...
Coming back from Valla, I Paid $1-46 litre for 95 RON fuel
near Newcastle...
YIKES...
luckily My beetle liked that fuel...lol
cheers
LEE
Spare a few thoughts for those in Europe Lee. Had an email from a friend in Holland saying petrol is around 1.50 Euro/litre That's around A$2.14/litre at current conversion! Still better than in the UK in 2006! Near equivalent to A$2.50/litre back then!
DH
polak ·
i have done a bit of researching into this and its very similar to running basic methanol, you would need to increase your fuel supply as a start.... e85 based cars burn alot more fuel, but at the same time run alot more cleanly and reduce the risk of detonation.... your steel tank would be suitable but you would be required to upgrade to a higher flow electric fuel pump and regulator.... not to mention ethanol friendly fuel lines..... also for those of us running webers, its not exactly great on them either.... most of the boys running methanol on webers in drag racing usually run the car dry and run normal petrol back through them on shut off, so i would assume that E85 wouldnt be much different..... on the other hand if you are running fuel injection on your car its a great upgrade..... works in favour of the whole air-cooled thing as the motor runs much cooler due to the high content of the ethanol.
I was not looking at this as a money saving exercise, more from a performance side of things.
Steve
It wasn't directed at you Steve, just a generalisation
1303Steve ·
Hi Joel
I just thought the thread was heading that way.
Talking to Rudi tonight at a club meeting, he's had no issues with fuel lines or tanks breaking down and as its a sports sedan it sits between events with no ill effects.
Steve
chop-chop ·
there is alot of misconception on the net about E-85 fuel. yes slightly lower calorific content, and i do mean slightly. Yes the fuel was corrosive in its early incarnations, and Yes a carbied car will drink a little more of it. I believe the benifits out-weight the cons. Very clean burning fuel as the main byproducts are water/CO and oxygen, can tollerate comp ratio's up to 30:1( if your engine can make that?). the less we rely on fossil fuel the better.Also modern rubber hose and tube is mainly synthetic so its good for E-85; its only the NOS and older stock parts that will have any problem with it, and not for a couple of years anyway.
oldskl60 ·
I have read that (including ethanol based) pump fuels have to have corrosion inhibitors - does this sound right?
Steve - is Rudi running carbs or injection?
Does anyone know any QLD distributors other than the below? The Brookwater/Augustine Heights station is on the way to willowbank...
ALEXANDRA HILLS, Cnr Finucane Rd & Cambridge Dr
WORONGARY 1 Mudgeeraba Rd
BROOKWATER, 7001 Augusta Parkway
SOUTHPORT 152 Smith St, cnr Kumbari Ave
MACKENZIE 1015 Mt Gravatt-Capalaba Road
LUFTMEISTER ·
The problem with ethanol based fuel is the food bowls of the world are being converted to produce it. It is only being used as a small percentage of total energy at the moment, but to produce enough to replace the worlds dependence on fossel fuel ,there would be no food produced on this planet! We are along way off replacing fossil fuel. If we are to maintain our current lifestyle and transport freedoms. How far are YOU & YOUR FAMILY prepared to walk to stay green is the real question. My2c
vlad01 ·
haha its funny when VW people complaining about fuel prices.
Imagine people who have 6 or 8 cylinder cars that require from 95-98 ron.
My crumpledore takes only 95ron. its cheap! whats the problem?
1303Steve ·
oldskl60 wrote:Steve - is Rudi running carbs or injection?
Hi
Rudi is running a turbo with EFI, with an under 2 litre car he's making over 310 hp at the wheels.
Steve
mactaylor ·
does anyone know if e85 actually runs cooler than ULP?
bajachris88 ·
Very interesting video of an experiment running a non-ethanol fueled car on E85 for 100,000miles (not kms) then fully tearing down to see the effects. Its interesting
bajachris88 ·
mactaylor wrote:does anyone know if e85 actually runs cooler than ULP?
It should if it has a higher octane rating as long as the valve timing is right to not continue burning as it passes through into the exhaust manifold :P
hence the less chance of detonation.
amazeer ·
I dont think there would be any difference in water problems. Before the water accumulated in the bottom of the tank below the pick up and rusted it out. Now it mixes and goes through. Its still there sure, but doesnt accumulate and cause the car to stop. Did the brazillians have plastic fuel tanks? I know plenty of people using E85 in their (EFI) race cars. Some with alloy tanks some not. I'd only be worried about the fuel hose. Dont know how long it takes or whether you can see it breaking down before fuel sprays everywhere.
With the carby I'd guess you have the potential for gaskets and diaphragms to break down as well.
I pray to god every day that my falcon fuel hose breaks. So far no luck.
amazeer ·
dont compare octane with temperature. not the same thing.
And E85 has a lower octane rating than LPG ya know. So no big advances there in any case.
68AutoBug ·
LUFTMEISTER wrote:The problem with ethanol based fuel is the food bowls of the world are being converted to produce it. It is only being used as a small percentage of total energy at the moment, but to produce enough to replace the worlds dependence on fossel fuel ,there would be no food produced on this planet! We are along way off replacing fossil fuel. If we are to maintain our current lifestyle and transport freedoms. How far are YOU & YOUR FAMILY prepared to walk to stay green is the real question. My2c
I don't really believe that....
the US was making ethanol from sugar as it had excess of sugar..
ethanol can be made from many crops etc...
Holden is bringing out a Commodore that can officially use E85
First car in Australia...
You can get fuel/oil hose with teflon coating inside...
that should handle ethanol OK...
Drag cars etc use Methanol... must be similar problems with hoses..??
LEE
PS: I bought some good old BP unleaded without ethanol today it cost $1.30 a litre.. probably will be all gone by the end of the year...?? LEE
vlad01 ·
Thats a major misconception with the hoses. Ethanol wont do anything to most hoses, but regular fuel can.
Phil74Camper ·
For air-cooled VWs that you drive every day, forget about E10 and E85 or whatever. Also forget about driving around trying to find the last dregs of un-ethanol 91, it's a waste of time.
Just go to your local servo and buy 95 RON Premium. Just pay the few cents extra and be happy. Use a Woolies or Coles discount docket and you save a bit more. I got some Caltex 95 this morning for $1.25.
Lee the US makes ethanol from corn, not sugar. The US get their domestic sugar from beets, as they are not hot or wet enough to grow sugar cane (a tropical crop). You are thinking of Brazil. Methanol has similar issues to ethanol, with the additional problem that it is poisonous.
barls ·
ok on the food side of it, having just seen the flow through effects of the us govt offering a subsidy for those that grew corn for fuel.
we had grain and hop shortages in the last 3 years due to the fact that the farmers could grow corn and it did have to be of the same quality as the previous crops ie grain, hops or other food sources and get paid by both the govt and fuel companies.
it was estimated that we lost about 40% of the grain fields and at least 50% of the hop fields in the us to this stupid idea.
i dont believe that taking food off tables to produce fuel is a way ahead. if it was done with waste products like the left overs from sugar production and other industries fine.
volumex ·
We have plenty of sugar cane farmers walking off their farms in NQ, so anything to encourage them to stay has to be a good thing. (I'll not even touch the subject of farmer suicides, but that is another excellent reason to encourage ethanol.)
Australia's balance of payments is being buggered by the huge amount of oil we need to import, by encouraging the use of ethanol we keep more money and jobs in regional Australia.
Ethanol isn't the magic bullet, but it is a step in the right direction.
Although I won't run it in my Beetles, I plan to run E85 in my Pug 206GTI.
bajachris88 ·
Any developments of 100% ethanol compatible engines in development?
I mean... if they have 85% ethanol fuels (with only 15% petrol)... surely that would be the next step again.
It seems to be like a silent slow merge.... But as stated in the theory workings of TRIZ as a wise russian once said... there is a 'Tendency for human beings to resist change".. - Principle of Psychological Inertia.
It looks to me that its going to head that way, and why the heck not 🙂, we're powerless as individuals and can only accept it.
Phil74Camper ·
Of course there are! Cars made specifically for the Brazilian market that can run on up to E100 (actually 96% ethanol and 4% water) have been available since the late 1970s. However Brazil's fuel can vary anywhere from E15 to E100 and anything in between. So Volkswagen was the first maker to produce a car that can automatically run on ANY blend of petrol and ethanol - the 2003 Gol 1.6 Total Flex. Early versions needed a small auxiliary petrol tank for cold starts, but even that has been eliminated in the newer models.
Ethanol has a great potential as an Australian alternative in future, if we do it properly. VW already has the technology for new cars and it would be a simple matter to make E10-E100 Total Flex cars for any market as required, including here. You just have to remember that existing cars, especially old Volkswagens, can't use it.
Why the helll not! 😂 More RON, More boost, more power.
who cares about economy when we are talking about fuel that drag cars use 😁
Phil74Camper ·
I'm talking about unmodified stockers - they can't use ethanol.
If you want to especially modify your road or race car, then that's a different story.
bajachris88 ·
So.... all in all...
What does one need to do to convert their ol' dub to enthanol savvy superiority over all the other classics?
Just plastic lined tank (resin coatin on stock?), new ethanol friendly fuel lines and pump, corrosive resistant componentry in carbs and heads? + of course the 'tune up"? is that all thats really required?
You know... someone could start a business for these type of conversions, If thats all thats involved then schweet. Be nice to have some kind of dial/gauge or measurement of the tuning parameters of the carb such that if u wanted to 'revert' back to fuel you just get a ruler or follow a marking or recording of the amount of adustment to put on ur carb mixture screws. And a set of jets appropriate to each that u could just swap and go.
I spose ignition advance curves would be different, but then u might as well go efi if u wanna get that 'intrinsique'
Phil74Camper ·
To use E10 - don't bother. No advantage to converting and you'll never get back the expense of doing so.
E85 - E100 - as you say. You have to allow for both the corrosive effects of almost straight alcohol, and that of the 4% or more water that the mixture always contains. Plastic or stainless tank (plastic-coated steel perhaps); stainless fixed lines, alcohol-compatible flex lines; alcohol-compatible pump. Whether you use fuel injection or carbs, you'll need to burn around 50% more fuel per volume of air than petrol as ethanol has less energy per volume than petrol. But to get to most from E85-E100, you need to bump the compression ratio up, to perhaps 12 to 1 or more to regain the same thermal efficiency. You'll also need a fuel heater, or even a small auxiliary petrol tank and crossover, for cold weather starts as ethanol has a lower vapour pressure than petrol. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
It's no quick adjust and I would reckon a conversion would be similar in scope and price to an LPG conversion. For a normal street VW I can't see how you could justify the cost - yes ethanol is cheaper but you'll burn more of it, don't forget. But if you're going racing, it might be worth considering.
vlad01 ·
I ran my commy for 30,000k on e10. took the tank out as the pump needed replacing (was like that since i had the car so don't blame the e10) The tank was shiny inside with not a trace of anything? except the odd bit of small rocks.
Its a steel tank btw. And i all so removed the fuel lines while I was at it and they seemed ok. Did my fuel rail on the alternator terminal last year, so as I replaced it, I just reused the "O" rings as they were also spot on.
They use ethanol to preserve flesh and other various items for a reason 👍.
Phil74Camper ·
Yes the FCAI's website says that many modern fuel-injected cars can run fine on E10. I've tried in my Mk3 Golf but it runs better on normal 95 petrol. But I won't be using it in my Kombi.
They certainly use ethanol for cleaning and disinfecting - those cool wipes you get before a needle are ethanol. But for preserving flesh (embalming fluid) - are you thinking of formalin, a mixture of formaldehyde, methanol and water?
bajachris88 ·
mmmm corned beef....
with a scotch on the rocks...
Now thats preserving a darn good meal with a dash of ethanol 😂
bajachris88 ·
Update:
Today's practical at uni involved using simulation software called AVL BOOST, which is a combustion cycle piston engine simulation package used in industry and its pretty accurate depending on how well you inform the software about the detailed parameters of the engine.
We were simulating ethanol blended and ethanol fumigation methods in diesel engines so observe the general findings which simply backed up general industry knowledge.
- Ethanol runs hotter (I was wrong). Because it is a simpler molecule, it breaks down easier releasing energy quicker and hence hotter. e5 and e10 had hardly a difference between each other whilst E85 did. Ignition advance curves and cooling system changes can be adjusted to bring down this temperature.
- Ethanol doesn't necessary decrease fuel mileage! It depends what you require from the engine. IN ESSENCE, you need more litreage of ethanol blended fuel to match the same power output as 100% fuel, yes. But km/ltr depends on power demand from the vehicle.
- Ethanol's main benefits are definitely in the green/emissions field. It is definitely a cleaner fuel. During the experimentation we saw excellent decreases in toxic CO and HC emissions outputs. However, at the cost of more NOx emissions. The hotter running temperatures would be to blame for this, but it can be brought back down by making corrections to bring down the cylinder temperatures to bring the NOx values back down.
Alot of PHD research is going into it, particularly in diesel-ethanol blends. The yanks already have diesanol. We were working in the engine dynometer labs playing with a turboed 6cyl diesel Cummins engine connected to a 'water brake' type dynometer. couple more weeks we will be analysing some bomb old ford diesel from the 70's :P, fun fun!
annosL ·
Interesting discussion, I have a few oddball questions from Sandgroper point of view (has been known to have been parochial!) There doesn't seem to be much discussion in W.A. about Ethanol in fuel, in fact I don,t know anyone who mentions it, our fuel is as it has always has been and I just run my bug on Premium and it's fine.
One question is: does Queensland or N.S.W. for that matter look to benefit at all from production of Ethanol, say from Sugar Cane? I might be ignorant on this so please forgive.
If that is so what does anyone think about people like Bob Katter mentioning Ethanol as an election issue, especially when his decision may affect the election outcome? I am not keen on a National Government being decided on a local state issue. Mind you, just re-reading what I have just said I guess the mining tax could be a similar thing, something which has been a huge topic over here. If Ethanol being put in our fuel will be applied Nationwide is there a good, positive side to it to make it worthwhile?
Phil74Camper ·
Sugar cane is the best source of ethanol, as it has a higher sucrose content than corn (which the US uses). That's why it's been such a success in Brazil. Australia has the potential to use sugar crops for large-scale ethanol production, but sugar cane only grows in the tropical north. Hence Bob Katter's interest - he can see big $$ in it in his area in future. There is sugar cane grown in NSW, from around Coffs harbour up, but the vast majority is in Queensland - it's hotter and wetter, and more like Brazil.
At the moment Australia's largest producer of ethanol is the Manildra group. Their plant is located in Nowra. It uses industrial grade wheat flour to make ethanol. It musrt be ok on a cost and supply basis now, but if ethanol really ramps up and they need to increase production x20, I don't know how sustainable that would be - flour comes from wheat of course.
Thanks Phil, it's a bit clearer to me, the question remains whether putting Ethanol in is a huge gain or at least has an advantage over petrol or is it a prop for the sugar cane industry? Seems to be a lot of questions need to be addressed before this is used nationally, basically a good thing or not❓
annosL ·
Just checked out Manildra, very educational for me, thanks for the link, lot of information there
68AutoBug ·
annosL wrote:There doesn't seem to be much discussion in W.A. about Ethanol in fuel, in fact I don,t know anyone who mentions it, our fuel is as it has always has been and I just run my bug on Premium and it's fine.
If Ethanol being put in our fuel will be applied Nationwide is there a good, positive side to it to make it worthwhile?
Last time I looked.... a while back...
Ethanol was illegal to add to fuel.... in Western Australia...
whether this has changed....???
LEE
I won't use it in My beetle... loses too much power??
annosL ·
I don't know about the illegality of it here, haven't seen it at the pumps,only bio-diesel. If sugar can was grown in the Kimberley then it would soon become legal!
Phil74Camper ·
Lee, for the 100th time, E10 ethanol fuel is not compatible with air-cooled VWs.
You can only use E10 in fuel-injected VWs made after 1986. Just buy normal 95 petrol for your Beetle and be happy.
vlad01 ·
1500S wrote:Even GMH stated that you would have to get used to filling up more regular as the engines will use more much more volume of the E85 stuff. Remember, as it stands with E10, the engine will use around 10% more so where's the actual savings????
DH
Don't you guys know anything about thermodynamics??! its 3.4% more worst case consumption for E10 and up to 28.9% more for E85.