Does anyone in Aust sell these?

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-7036

tried levers, tried rattle guns and that darn axle nut will not move.

These are the greatest invention since sliced bread. They actually multiply the torque you can put on a nut times 10! I dont know how many times I have borrowed Dave Becker's cause he is close and cause I can. Saved me many hours of swearing. It would be one of the most useful tools going for a VW idiiot.😎

Old Hutcho

CLUB VEE DUB in sydney don't have them?

although not a genuine vw tool..??

never ever seen them before look great...

any generic torque multipliers about?

LEE

So the trip to pick up your bar didn't bear fruit? Bummer. 😢 At least my garage is a bit cleaner now 😀

Mate just order it from CIP1

It'll be here in 3 days they're great to deal with 😉

andy down in tassie had them at one stage. cant remember his user name right at the moment.

just went back to have a look to see if i could jog the memory, its volksfolks, hasnt been here in a while though there is a mobile in his profile

I have one and I used it on my 58 axle nuts. One came off ok but the other would not budge even with the CIP1 tool.
I used a flogging spanner and an 8 lb sledge hammer to get it off. (This one: http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=82243 )

Hi

I've had very few that I couldn't move, is the wheel on the ground? Have you tried any heat? Failing that split the nut with a chisel through one of the split pin slots.

Steve

+1 1303steve...

Add oxy torch and a rattle gun!

+2 for 1303Steve's suggestion.

Also soaking in WD40 or similar... amazing how much torque a small amount of corrosion can take to shift.

Oxy could also help, but I wouldn't try a rattle gun... the threads on the axle strike me as a bit fine for that.

Good luck

😉

i've tried the rattle gun of death and no cigar. have wd40ed it last night. maybe I'll try the heat gun. I don't have oxy, but I do have a bosch electric one. seems like the last person who did it up didn't muck around.

Hi Take your self down to blackwoods and purchase a 36mm flogging spanner, with the wheel on the car you will have no problems loosening it.

http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/PartDetail.aspx?part_no=03865909

pete wood wrote:i've tried the rattle gun of death and no cigar. have wd40ed it last night. maybe I'll try the heat gun. I don't have oxy, but I do have a bosch electric one. seems like the last person who did it up didn't muck around.

Pete, put the socket on the nut and then place a piece of metal say 10mm thick on the top face of the socket. Give it a couple of good raps with a fair sized hammer. Then try the breaker bar again. The axial impacts will loosen most stubborn nuts.

Now for the "be careful" bit. Any axial impacts on a static ball bearing can "brinell" the bearing. For that matter, the flogging spanner can have the same disastrous effects on a bearing.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinelling

Still better to use a steady force from a long lever to undo the nut.

DH

1500S wrote:Any axial impacts on a static ball bearing can "brinell" the bearing. For that matter, the flogging spanner can have the same disastrous effects on a bearing.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinelling

Still better to use a steady force from a long lever to undo the nut.

DH

x2

when you say "top face", do you mean the back of the socket or the side?

pete wood wrote:when you say "top face", do you mean the back of the socket or the side?

Sideways, ie, towards the trans I'd expect, as he's explained to hit the socket. It can definately help at the risk of wheel bearing damage.

What size breaker bar and length of pipe did you try Pete ?

0.9m breaker bar with a 1 metre extension or there abouts. the pipe was 1 and 1/4 with a 3mm wall thickness. bent like liquorice. I'm not quite 100kg and I was standing on it.

most engineering supply companies (blackwoods) carry them they are call a torque multiplier. they dont look anything like the one from CIP1.
they are not cheap but if you are willing to spend the money you can get them to do up around 4000 ft/lb if that dosnt undo the axel nut then it was never going to come off

or you could try one of these

Hi

So is your breaker bar 3/4 inch?

If you want to borrow my 3/4 bar & pipe let me know.

Steve

the breaker bar is 1/2 inch. never been an issue in the past. I'm gonna try the hitting the socket thing first.

pete wood wrote:the breaker bar is 1/2 inch. never been an issue in the past. I'm gonna try the hitting the socket thing first.

You need a 3/4" drive one to make it easy and yes, give a hit on the end of the socket where the square drive fits. The bit of plate stops the hammer damaging the socket. The socket will sit on the flange (washer) of the axle nut. A 3/4 bar also prevents the dreaded bending of the bar under load. If you have no luck tonight you can have a loan of mine as well. Depends who is closer to you. I'm going Meadowbank way tomorrow evening (about 3 pm) so could drop it somewhere for you or you can come over for a drive and pick it up after 5.30pm

DH

Once u whacked the nut, when u apply the torque, try to 'break' the lock by a little impact by whackin the end of the 6ft breaker bar.

YOUR BEST BET, with safety for bearings in mind, is to jump on th end of the breaker bar with a good pair of shoes, and ur hands on the side of the body ready to take your weight when the nut 'cracks' free such as to not axe yourself.

If it wants to play rough, return the favour!

I assume u are using a HT 6 sided socket? axle nut not too burd up?

I had 2m of leverage on one of my axle nuts once, and was just lifting up the whole car... I ended up hiring an electric impact gun and socket (it was 3/4 or maybe even 1") from the hire shop, got it off in 2 seconds. Was the easiest $50 i spent in ages.

I Agree with Steve, if its really really really F'n tight just split it off

heres what happened to both sides of my bug when I got serious with the heat, WD40 and breaker bar extentions

stripped the thread clean off both axles

Woulda saved me alot of extra work if i had of just split the nuts

The angle grinder is my friend.

ratbug wrote:I had 2m of leverage on one of my axle nuts once, and was just lifting up the whole car... I ended up hiring an electric impact gun and socket (it was 3/4 or maybe even 1") from the hire shop, got it off in 2 seconds. Was the easiest $50 i spent in ages.

Pulling up on the lever is a big mistake! If you place it so you can stand on the bar it's safer and the wheel is being pushed to the ground rather than lifting it off the ground thus with a couple of chocks it's locked preventing rotation whilst undoing the nut.


In many cases, veedubbers are now suffering from previous owners as well as misinformation by believing you need a 2 metre bar to jump on or a FB hammer to tighten the nuts up. Over tightening is just as bad as not tight enough.

DH

PS. To save wading through old stuff, read this clip to remind us of all that maths we learned at school.

Quote:
Originally posted by Aussie Dubbin
Good info... but have you got a good example of correct/ close torque settings without a torque wrench?


Yes! Simply TORQUE = FORCE x DISTANCE. If you use imperial then the distance is feet, metric the distance is metres but if the mass is given in kg then you'll have to convert it to Newtons as the torque is generally given in Newton/Metres (Mass x 9.8 is near enough).

The example we may as well use here is a torque of 217 ft lbs. If we have a lever say 3 ft long then Torque/Distance = Force

217/3 = 72 lb. ie, measure along the bar 3 ft and apply this load on the bar and you have the correct torque.

To be a bit more metric ( but not totally as I haven't got a book in front of me with the Nm settings), if you weigh in at 100kg (220lb), Torque/Force = Distance then 217/220 = 11.8 inches or near enough to 300mm. Place your big hoof 300mm out from the centre of the axle and stand on the bar and you have the correct torque................ but all you mathematicians knew all that didn't you. 😂 Believe me, you can't argue with with physics and mechanics as long as you take into account the variables, as in the case of threaded fasteners, FRICTION.

Hope this helps!

1500S wrote:Pulling up on the lever is a big mistake! If you place it so you can stand on the bar it's safer and the wheel is being pushed to the ground rather than lifting it off the ground thus with a couple of chocks it's locked preventing rotation whilst undoing the nut.


In many cases, veedubbers are now suffering from previous owners as well as misinformation by believing you need a 2 metre bar to jump on or a FB hammer to tighten the nuts up. Over tightening is just as bad as not tight enough.

I was pushing down, pulling up is just asking for a hospital visit. it was lifting the front of the car off the groound. Also i didnt mention the car had no body, just the chassis.

ratbug wrote:

1500S wrote:Pulling up on the lever is a big mistake! If you place it so you can stand on the bar it's safer and the wheel is being pushed to the ground rather than lifting it off the ground thus with a couple of chocks it's locked preventing rotation whilst undoing the nut.


In many cases, veedubbers are now suffering from previous owners as well as misinformation by believing you need a 2 metre bar to jump on or a FB hammer to tighten the nuts up. Over tightening is just as bad as not tight enough.

I was pushing down, pulling up is just asking for a hospital visit. it was lifting the front of the car off the groound. Also i didnt mention the car had no body, just the chassis.

Always be clear on anything we say! 😂

Ratbug said:

"I had 2m of leverage on one of my axle nuts once, and was just lifting up the whole car..."

If you were undoing as I suggested it couldn't possibly lift the front of the car remembering it is the wheel being locked by the chocks with no mention of handbrake on or in gear to damage brakes or transmission.

In your case you should have had the wheel off and a piece of angle or flat about 1 metre long bolted to the drum with two wheel bolts to prevent rotation.

DH

Hi All, 35 years back I welded a 36mm X 3/4 drive socket to a 4 foot length of pipe. never had any issues with removing flywheel gland nuts & axle nuts. must admit, in the early days. before I got a feel for things, I did snap one or 3 gland nuts whilst installing them, but luckily, the gland nut thread never bottoms out in the crank, so you could remove the broken gland thread with your finger. I still have this bar today.

1500S wrote:

pete wood wrote:the breaker bar is 1/2 inch. never been an issue in the past. I'm gonna try the hitting the socket thing first.

You need a 3/4" drive one to make it easy and yes, give a hit on the end of the socket where the square drive fits. The bit of plate stops the hammer damaging the socket. The socket will sit on the flange (washer) of the axle nut. A 3/4 bar also prevents the dreaded bending of the bar under load. If you have no luck tonight you can have a loan of mine as well. Depends who is closer to you. I'm going Meadowbank way tomorrow evening (about 3 pm) so could drop it somewhere for you or you can come over for a drive and pick it up after 5.30pm

DH

just tried the hitting th socket trick and no cigar.

could i borrow that bar and socket pls? that would be great. I'll pm my address. if you could drop it in on the way to meadowbank that would be awesome. I'll bring it back later.

Pete

pete wood wrote:

1500S wrote:

pete wood wrote:the breaker bar is 1/2 inch. never been an issue in the past. I'm gonna try the hitting the socket thing first.

You need a 3/4" drive one to make it easy and yes, give a hit on the end of the socket where the square drive fits. The bit of plate stops the hammer damaging the socket. The socket will sit on the flange (washer) of the axle nut. A 3/4 bar also prevents the dreaded bending of the bar under load. If you have no luck tonight you can have a loan of mine as well. Depends who is closer to you. I'm going Meadowbank way tomorrow evening (about 3 pm) so could drop it somewhere for you or you can come over for a drive and pick it up after 5.30pm

DH

just tried the hitting th socket trick and no cigar.

could i borrow that bar and socket pls? that would be great. I'll pm my address. if you could drop it in on the way to meadowbank that would be awesome. I'll bring it back later.

Pete

Will do Pete. Got your address now and not out of the way too far. I'll pm my phone number.

DH

Hey Pete, how did you go? did you get the nut off? Is this on your buggy?
If you cant get it, come by the workshop and we will give it a shot for you.
Cheers, Brendon

Ebay item number 200487860683 buy it now $80 usd. not far from my shipper, can arrange shipping with my stuff to Geelong Victoria, might cost you $20 to ship here plus postage costs to my shipper ( maybe 8 bucks usd) if you or a member wants it, just let me know cheers Frank

blkovl wrote:Hey Pete, how did you go? did you get the nut off? Is this on your buggy?
If you cant get it, come by the workshop and we will give it a shot for you.
Cheers, Brendon

Hi Brendon, the back driver's side slave cyl is leaking and I can't drive it but thanx for the offer. Got something else to try on friday and I'll see how I go from there.

BTW, have to say a big thanx to 1500s. the man is GOLD. 👍

pete wood wrote:

blkovl wrote:Hey Pete, how did you go? did you get the nut off? Is this on your buggy?
If you cant get it, come by the workshop and we will give it a shot for you.
Cheers, Brendon

Hi Brendon, the back driver's side slave cyl is leaking and I can't drive it but thanx for the offer. Got something else to try on friday and I'll see how I go from there.

BTW, have to say a big thanx to 1500s. the man is GOLD. 👍

Just an update for Pete! Will be interesting to try this one to see if things move. The last try was with a commercial bar from a small mandrel press but of Chinese quality unknown. Obviously they used mild steel as the 20 mm dia bar bent. We now have a new one from 4140 high tensile steel at 25mm dia so we'll see if this one will shift things.

One does wonder what the difficulty is and if it's because of over tightening by the assembler (not Pete!!) or if in fact some chemical locker has been used.

Will drop it down sometime tomorrow Pete. The apprentices needed a real job for a change today!! 😂

DH

is that a challenge. see if I can bend it? 🤓

pete wood wrote:is that a challenge. see if I can bend it? 🤓

👍

DH

Is that still half inch drive? It wasnt until I went to a 3/4 inch drive that I stoped having problems.

Newt

Newt wrote:Is that still half inch drive? It wasnt until I went to a 3/4 inch drive that I stoped having problems.

Newt

3/4". Been using the original socket for 40 + years but loaned the original bar with another single hex socket with a good Type 3 manual in the early 80s and never got them back!

No doubt Pete will have a big 😊 on his face when he gets home from work rather than another 🙁 . Incidently, an estimated 350-400 ft lbs was needed to crack the nut! A little overkill when originally tightened! Remember VW thought that 217 ft lbs was enough when they designed that part!

DH

😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁

mate you are a legend. looking forward to having a proper chat.

BTW, people, what 1500s has done is what this forum should be about all the time. HELPING one another. Think about it. 😉

Thinker wrote:most engineering supply companies (blackwoods) carry them they are call a torque multiplier. they dont look anything like the one from CIP1.
they are not cheap but if you are willing to spend the money you can get them to do up around 4000 ft/lb if that dosnt undo the axel nut then it was never going to come off

Got it in one, screw having a four foot breaker bar, i always use a torque multiplier. makes life so much easier.

I think we've achieved a good outcome here by saving Pete quite a few dollars. By purchasing a torque multiplier, you have to weigh up the cost to the number of times you can use it. To hire one will get the job done but it's still cost $50 basically for someone else to supply the tool plus the time involved in picking up and returning. In the fitting trade we always teach/learn different ways to tackle a problem. In most cases we try to retain components without damage or in harsher words, butchery. In saying that, there is always that last resort of splitting the nut as all other methods have failed. With splitting the nut using a chisel there is always the danger of damaging a bearing with the high number of impacts required to do the job. You can also get a commercial nut splitter but then again cost outweighs usage. Then there's old friend angle grinder there as well. 🙁

It's ended up with no cost and no damaged components so the repair bill is now only for a slave cyl. The main reason here is that Pete has given the area he lives (now closer at Rope's Crossing!!) so it makes it easy for other Veedubbers who live nearby to lend a hand. Wouldn't it be great if everyone gave that information in their profile!!

DH

Hi

I hope there is good ending to this story!

The moral is don't try and undo an axle nut or flywheel unless your using a 3/4 socket & bar and big pipe, 1/2 inch might be fine in circumstances where everything is normal.

The 3/4 bar I use just has a right angle bend on it, as in non sliding T bar, I feel that these are stronger.

Steve

1500S wrote:To be a bit more metric ( but not totally as I haven't got a book in front of me with the Nm settings), if you weigh in at 100kg (220lb), Torque/Force = Distance then 217/220 = 11.8 inches or near enough to 300mm. Place your big hoof 300mm out from the centre of the axle and stand on the bar and you have the correct torque................ but all you mathematicians knew all that didn't you. 😂 Believe me, you can't argue with with physics and mechanics as long as you take into account the variables, as in the case of threaded fasteners, FRICTION.

Hope this helps!

well, I just undid the other side for good measure. I'd say it was 3 x as tight as it needed to be. The worry with this is that not only is it near impossible to undo, there is a real chance of tensile failure.



About 15 years ago, one of the then contributors to fast4s, a VW enthusiast posted a pic of his back axle nut complete with the thread still in it. His diagnosis was overtightening and you could see it from the grain failure patterns on the face of the shaft where it had broken away. With enough torque, the humungous castle nut on VW axles is literally strong enough to break the axle. 🤪 I've seen similar issues countless times on a US offroad forum I'm on.

SO take it easy with your 2m long levers. Levers are supposed to make it easier to do things up, not make it more expensive to fix down the track.

Again, huge thanx to 1500s.

Hi Peter

When you do it all up again, take the time to calculate the weight your putting into X amount of bar. I have 3/4 tension wrench and I can do my axle nuts to the correct torque with one hand, that would demonstrate the over tightening that usually occurs.

If you want to borrow my tension wrench let me know, I'm in Lugarno near Hurstville

Steve

thanx steve. My 2foot 1/2" long breaker bar and me (97kg) should do it with ease... and without overtightening. In fact, come to think of it, I've got a torque wrench that would probably do it too.

if you do the calcs 97kg x 2.205=213.885 lbs x 2.5 ft = 534.7125 ft/lbs
you can over tighten with out even trying.

if you use a 1 ft bar with you on it you will get it bang on.

yep, that's what I'm gonna do. 😉