Narrowed/lowered NSW legality

Hi Guys,

These narrowed Bugs - how do you stand with legality, in my case in NSW. I'm guessing it's obvious that you would require (strictly speaking) an Engineer's Certificate? Or does the age of the car nullify this (wishful deluded thinking?)?

Could it even be certified?

Thanks in advance.

Mines narrow and low .. Passed blue slip no worries. But I have an adjustable beam, so is put it down another notch after it passed. I figure if I get a defect warning, I will pop it back up .... and then back down when it clears 😀 Think I am only narrowed 2 inches too.

My thinking is, if its not horribly obvious, you will probably get away with it.

Hi

Speak to an engineer 1st.

I'm pretty sure that NSW still has a law that if you get defected three times for the same thing they will cancel the rego and make the car with that VIN illegal to register.

Passing a blue slip is not a way of saying that all mods on a car are legal, far from it, most blue slip examiners wouldn't bother too much, they get paid peanuts.

Steve

I do not see how decreasing the track of a vehicle would be legal, fitment of wheels with incorrect offset by narrowing the track is exactly the same as being over the legal track, its the relationship to the suspension geomrtry that is the issue, i called my engineer and he would not approve any reducion in track in queensland, bearing in mind that the rule's will be Australia wide eventually, all the other issues that go with a reducion in track and the wrong offset wheels, increased spring rate, increased wheel bearing wear, increased wear on the trailing arm bushes, increased bump steer, decrease in stability.

I've always wondered why you would want to, maybe someone here can clue me as to why. ❓

donn wrote:I've always wondered why you would want to, maybe someone here can clue me as to why. ❓

narrowed beam allows for driveable 'on its guts' lowering by allowing more room for the wheels to steer without rubbing against the inside of the wheel guards. It gives it greater space.

.... and it looks ACE!!! Kinda like the old Porsche 356 Outlaw with the wheels tucked under.

http://coldtrackdays.blogspot.com/2009/07/build-thread-porsche-356-outlaw.html

😀

It definitely looks ace. To be honest though, whilst I've not been defected before, I have experienced the anxiety of driving around in an unengineered modified car, knowing big bills could be awaiting in the next plod car I encounter. Not something I really want to set myself up for again.

Good old Australian nanny state legislation.

it's great until you kill some one and you have no insurance and i don't know how it would be drivable when you have reduced the stability of the vehicle

vwo60 wrote:it's great until you kill some one and you have no insurance and i don't know how it would be drivable when you have reduced the stability of the vehicle

Really man ? You make it sound like a bug with a narrowed track is a death trap waiting to slaughter people.

I dont disagree that narrowing the track may change the handling (slightly) ... but I think for a driver to notice the difference he would have to be driving like a bat out of hell in order to test the limits ... So then whats to blame really ? The 2" off the front axle or the person driving it ??

I drive really slowly all the time.. partly cause I have an old 1200 in mine and partly cause I dont want to get caught speeding.. the handling has NEVER caused me any problems.

A standard early beetle has a stability issue when it is standard, Ralph Nadder tried to have them banned in the US and succeded with the corvair. When you narrow the front end and reduce the track it will realy affect the stability, no matter how slow you drive you will eventually get into a situation were it could make a difference, when you lower the car to that extent it also contributes to the instability, driving around in a modified vehicle that has not been engineered is as i stated, kill some one or be involved in a bad enough accident and you can be charged with culpable driving, so what's really to blame, it's the person who drove the car with the unapproved modification's.

Cool man.

If you narrow the beam and increase wheel / tyre size have you actually narrowed the wheel track if the outer diameter of the wheel is at the same point of the original wheel?

Having said that i put wider tyres and wheels but didnt narrow the beam.

Hey Hey,

So, can a narrowed beam be engineered to be legal in NSW?

There is more than a few Beetles and Kombis running around with their bellies on the ground.

How did you guys do it?
Or do you just rely on the select-a-drop front end, and raise the front for rego?

They look great in photos and and shows, what are they like to drive, and stop in?

Nanny state strikes again. 🥷 more people die talking on their mobile phones than from modified track accidents. And thats the truth. Drive within your limits and you can still get taken out by a drugged up or drunk safety sam driver in his Pillow Car. Towies still pull dead people out of NEW CARS. Live and Let die. My2c

Paulc1964au wrote:If you narrow the beam and increase wheel / tyre size have you actually narrowed the wheel track if the outer diameter of the wheel is at the same point of the original wheel?

Having said that i put wider tyres and wheels but didnt narrow the beam.

track is measured from the center to center of the tyres so...
narrow beam + wide wheels,same offset = narrowed track
narrowed beam + wide wheels, LOWER offset = stock track
in theory provided all the numbers add up, say for a 2" narrowed beam it would need to go from stock is roughly et36? wheels down to et11 (center of the wheels gets pushed out 25mm each side)
that said going +25mm total /12mm each side means engineering cert, in qld at least 🙂
hope that helps & not confuses

It does not work that way, the wheel position relates to the suspension geometry, narrowing the beam then moving the wheels towards the outside of the car just loads up the suspension and changes all the important things like scrub radius, when track is mentioned it is asummed that no one is going to narrow the suspension, it is effectivly the same as being 50mm over track when you are allowed only 25mm.

Sensible narrowing of beams has its place, for instance when I was rebuilding my 1500 BJ/IRS bug to get my 17x7 rims to fit nicely with the stock gaurds and also still maintain a decent turning circle I was going to narrow the beam 2" which does not have a major effect on vehicle stability, even being a germanlooker that I was setting up for trackwork.

However taking 3 feet out of the beam, losing the shock towers and belting the shit out of the fuel tank for clearance, thats just stupid, and sad thing is I've seen it done.

As for looking ace, thats subjective, some do look good, others that you need a flashlight to see the front rims, no comment

On the whole nanny state thing:
* Yes, we live with an imperfect system, but in terms of the available systems around the world, we don't have too much to complain about. Isn't it Italy that won't allow you to modify a car at all?
* Yes, a lot of the time rules seem to be made just so that someone can look like they're doing something, but that's all part of the system.
* Yes you can be killed in any one of 10,000 different ways, and just because they try to reduce the number killed by any one particular method doesn't mean it can't still happen, but that is why it is risk reduction, not risk elimination. The argument that you can still get killed in a new car is not valid. No one suggests you can't, but it does make it much safer than travelling in an old car.

The government that we as a society has elected to make certain decisions for us has decided that the right of an individual to excessively narrow the beam on their beetle doesn't outweigh the rights of others to remain safe. Regardless of whether you agree with that or not, that's the way it is. This is one of the hallmarks of a civilized society, that the ability of people to do anything they like is curtailed for the greater good of society. Otherwise the strong (monetary or physical) would run roughshod over all others.

Modifying a car to get it past inspection and then taking it outside the parameters of that inspection is not only illegal, but highly risky.

For my own part, I have a 74 L Bug that is about to be lowered (obviously there isn't a beam), and so I do get concerned that shortly a public servant will decide that my car is a public menace and that I shouldn't be allowed to drive it, but with everything I'm trying to do I'm aiming to improve on what was produced by the factory, which is different from doing something which is known to increase risk.

As an aside, how would some of the engineering from red9 design go?

http://www.red9design.co.uk/index.htm

I saw a barndoor in the last issue of VolksWorld with one of their wishbone systems in. That obviously removes the beam and should improve handling, but if you really want to lower a car on it's guts you'd still have to try and narrow it to be able to have any sort of turning circle which would still be illegal. So the only solution is to be happier with the car not at snake height.

vwo60 wrote:It does not work that way, the wheel position relates to the suspension geometry, narrowing the beam then moving the wheels towards the outside of the car just loads up the suspension and changes all the important things like scrub radius, when track is mentioned it is asummed that no one is going to narrow the suspension, it is effectivly the same as being 50mm over track when you are allowed only 25mm.

if i tried to explain all that without knowing much about beam front ends it would get confusing for both me and whoever was reading it, -strut front ends on the other hand i CAN explain all that, though i have wider guards too...

oh - we spoke in wally's drag car trailer about that ej20 bug in brissy i believe, beams just arent my thing remember -though that red9 kinda thing that craig linked has tickled me for awhile...


and wheres the build thread of the L bug with aeros???

If you want to be able to go low with a good turning circle, what about putting widened guards over stock-width wheels? It would provide the extra clearance required for lowering without compromising safety and legality, and it would look awesome as well. Plus, wide guards are fairly cheap, so it might even be cheaper than a narrowed beam! It's win-win all round.

vwo60 wrote:A standard early beetle has a stability issue when it is standard, Ralph Nadder tried to have them banned in the US and succeded with the corvair.

Wha? Now that is funny 😂

Read this page

http://squid1351.tripod.com/squidsvair/id1.html

Never let the facts get in the way of a good witch hunt! 👍

helbus wrote:

vwo60 wrote:A standard early beetle has a stability issue when it is standard, Ralph Nadder tried to have them banned in the US and succeded with the corvair.

Wha? Now that is funny 😂

Read this page

http://squid1351.tripod.com/squidsvair/id1.html

LOL... Yeah I read that and a heap of other stuff leaving me with the same conclusion about Nadder ... twat.

The current regs are only in place as a response to people performing back yard mods that have been responsable for loose of life and injury over the years, i have no problems working with those regs and to make my car legal, this way i can insure my car and have no issues with the law and if i have a accident i know that i am covered

vwo60 wrote:and if i have a accident i know that i am covered

Well there's another can of worms in that statement

I DONT CARE!!!! (yes im yelling)
my bug is lowered and i like it and no it wont kill anybody else because i did it and i did it right and all those who dont like it can .....................!
ok i feel better now 🤪

if your wiper blades are cracked and you have an accident in the rain then your insurer can decline your claim. Loopholes are named that way for a reason. 😵‍💫

LUFTMEISTER wrote:if your wiper blades are cracked and you have an accident in the rain then your insurer can decline your claim. Loopholes are named that way for a reason. 😵‍💫

Awe come on man!
That's a bit of a stretch. Yes i should know as i have worked for AAMI, AMP, NRMA, GIO etc etc

Think about it this way people,
It's difficult to do all the mods you want and stay legal.
Flout the law and do you think they are gonna make it easier for us in the future?

Its good to see that gringo 54 oval's car is lowered correctly and so the modification must be approved

benjicon wrote:

helbus wrote:

vwo60 wrote:A standard early beetle has a stability issue when it is standard, Ralph Nadder tried to have them banned in the US and succeded with the corvair.

Wha? Now that is funny 😂

Read this page

http://squid1351.tripod.com/squidsvair/id1.html

LOL... Yeah I read that and a heap of other stuff leaving me with the same conclusion about Nadder ... twat.

I love my Vair...and no it's not unsafe and yes....Nader is a tool on a self importance trip. How someone with so little actual knowledge was able to scaremonger so many people is beyond me.
Oh...and my narrowed Beetle was awesome too!😂

Nader was correct about the early swing axle corvair, it's a shame they were put out of productiont and the later cars had fixed that problem with a different rear end, as for our beetles being unstable it the same, most cars have built in understeer but our cars have built in oversteer which most people cannot handle,i seen a lot of beetles that have roled over the years and lowering and narrowing just makes it worse

Let it go dude.

vwo60 wrote:lowering and narrowing just makes it worse

I agree with lots that you have to say vwo6o, but I have to say lowering does not make your beetle handle worse. IMO, unless your racing, I think the improved ride/turning circle with the narrowed front end is woth it, with compliant suspension, they certainly handle and brake better than a slamed ride with no travel, regardless of being less track in the front. With the light weight of a beetle, they are so quick in the front that the reduced track is barely noticed, that is untill you get silly narrow.....yeah yeah, I here you say....where do you draw the line and fair point. I beleive it's not legal in Qld and so therefore it's certainly at the risk of the owner to go with a narrowed beam.

wheres the fun in stability 😂

The lotus Elan was flamed massively by heaps of reviewers because it 'handled too well' and it 'drove like it was on rails', there was no fun factor or edge to worry about.

Everythings dangerous to some extent, depending on the user. One could use a fluffy bear as an innocent toy for a kid, or a weapon by shoving it down some dudes throat and chockin them to death. Just like a car.

each to their own 👍

my super has lowered struts and handles a dream, no wavering all over the road at highway speeds, better stability by far. an IMPROVEMENT over stock, any way who would build a car that would be out right dangerous to drive on the road, i would say that most beetles have to be physically driven, where as new cars are at times too simple to drive and have that false sense of safety. i dont see many beetles in accidents these days, come to think of it none lately for some time, they have been late model cars.
happy driving 🙂

I don't want to get bogged down in this is it/isn't it safe thing, but suffice to say Australia is the laughing stock of the international car community - nowhere is nannied like Australia when it comes to these rules, and of course the answer is it is subjective. Many Aussies will have grown up with the 'speed kills' and 'modified cars are dangerous' mantras. Meh.

By way of perspective I have a car that the tyres are a little old and hard on. It gives me a lot less grip than new tyres. Does that mean my car should be defected and off the road? Maybe. So where do we draw the line? Replace tyres at least every 2 years? Every 2 weeks?

A 10 year old car is a death-trap compared to a brand new car. Should cars be taken off the road at 5 years? 5 weeks?

Australia just choses to legislate it's way to satisfying the hysterical, the media, and does very nicely thank you very much $$$ off it. Of course there needs to be rules and regulations. Australia is just out of all perspective. Is that because they're more advanced and have safer roads and does it lead to better safety statistics? No.

Hi

I have no problem with any mods as long as they signed off by an engineer.

What I can't understand is wanting to make a car do things worse just to look "cool", every modification has an up and a down side. eg lower your car you reduce ground clearance but improve handing etc

Steve

Yawn ...... is this topic still going on ...... 😢

The "look" is what all car manufacturers are after. Without it we would all be driving Govt designed pillow cars. I do not understand why an engineer needs to sign off on a modification on each and every car. Once a modification has been approved it should be logged and then everyone who wants to do the same mod pays a small fee to follow the recomended modification. OR........... maybe its a scam designed to line the pockets of a small elite academic group over the common users. No wouldn't happen, would it?🥷

iv just been reading this thread and came to a conclusion that there are many ppl out there with no idea, yes its illegal, yes there are idiots out there that take things too far, but when modifications are carried out properly they are not dangerous and alot of the time make the vehicle more stable and safer.... i know all the cars coming out of my shop are.... sensible narrowed beams are not dangerous and dont get me started about the comment posted that cars which are lowered handle worse... seriously, ok so all the race teams in the world are lowering their cars to make them unstable.... give me a break. im not going to get not this and argue, as everyone has the right to their own opinion, but i plead with you, if you have no clue about something do not try and confuse other ppl.... there is a right way and a wrong way of doing something.... if its done the right and safe way, the chances of finding an engineer to pass it is quite high.... cheers adam

hi Adam,
As you stated it's illeagle, are the cars coming out of your shop engineered and do they have the appriate plate for the modification approval attached, the engineer that i use refuses point blank to approve a narrowed beam.

vwo60 wrote:hi Adam,
As you stated it's illeagle, are the cars coming out of your shop engineered and do they have the appriate plate for the modification approval attached, the engineer that i use refuses point blank to approve a narrowed beam.

I dont get it man, whats your agenda ? Are you trying to piss everyone off ? Or does your dad work for the RTA??

BULLSHIIIT!!!!!!!!!
How does a narrowed beam make a bug handle worse
My bug when it sat like a bus it handled like shit
Narrowed that bitch and now it out handles any habib in their lexus😀
Now quit being a ball breaker

The original post was about the legality of narrowing a beam, to date we have not really established that, i know that i cannot get it legally approved, we need to let people know if it is or not, Polac, benjicon and gringo 54 oval apear to be most offended by my posts, are your cars engineered and approved, then you can answer the original question, it seams to me that the question of legal/illeagle modification are best no spoken about on most forums, we all have our opinions and there are new people taking up our interest and i would like them to receive the correct advice about the legallity of any mods. that's my agenda. my 60 beetle has eight mods all legal and plated

vwo60 wrote:hi Adam,
As you stated it's illeagle, are the cars coming out of your shop engineered and do they have the appriate plate for the modification approval attached, the engineer that i use refuses point blank to approve a narrowed beam.

NSW doesnt do mod tags, its all on paper and computer so the car doesnt need all these extra tags fitted

someone must be approving atleast a few of them though cos theres lots of bugs passing pink slips each year with narrowed beams

Googlebot wrote:Hi Guys,

These narrowed Bugs - how do you stand with legality, in my case in NSW. I'm guessing it's obvious that you would require (strictly speaking) an Engineer's Certificate? Or does the age of the car nullify this (wishful deluded thinking?)?

Could it even be certified?

Thanks in advance.

No it should not be certified IMO
but some shops don't care
Some shops use unskilled workers who wouldn't know any better
😂

ok, FOR THE RECORD. Un-engineered beams are illegal, both lowered or narrowed, in saying that, if they are done properly by someone who knows what they are doing they WILL make the car more stable and better handling. and YES they can be engineered, as i stated before, any beams that are narrowed sensibly, this time to be specific, under 80mm narrowed from stock, can be engineered legally in NSW. I leave the engineering up to the customer, alot of which choose not to, which is their choice, i never had mine engineered and never had a problem, as most inspectors would not have a clue what they are looking at, especially if its done properly and doesnt look like a hacked up home job, but YES anything narrowed under 80mm can be legally certified to be used on the road. cheers adam

"Caveat emptor"

"for off road use only"

Gringo_54_oval wrote:Narrowed that bitch and now it out handles any habib in their lexus😀

what you are describing is increased spring rate by shortening the torsion bars... which is fine. As for out-handling habibs, 20" wheels and cut springs generally don't help handling, but then again neither does narrowing the front track, which is the other thing that you did when you narrowed the beam. However, if you fitted stiffer shocks (pls tell me you have shocks) and stickier tyres, that would mask some of negative things you've done to the geometry of the front end... coz narrowing screws with that too. Using adjuster to get the lower height also mucks with all sort of things and if you have gone real low, you will be rest on the bumpstops which will add to the go-cart feel of the ride, but actually doesn't make the car faster.

I think narrowing is a complete furfee and a gimic, but like others have said, if it's engineered and regoed properly, that's ok. Hubcaps are just aesthetic and they are legal also.

Lowering is another issue altogether, it actually helps handling immensely, but again it needs to be done safely and legally. And... even if how low you want to go isn't legal on the road, there are endless ways to have it easily adjustable to floor scraping while having legal ride height on the street.

But yes, please get it engineered. it's not that hard and it means that we will have a modified car scene in years to come. if not, the local govt will clamp down on it all and mods will be a thing of the past... 🙁

Googlebot wrote:Hi Guys,

These narrowed Bugs - how do you stand with legality, in my case in NSW. I'm guessing it's obvious that you would require (strictly speaking) an Engineer's Certificate? Or does the age of the car nullify this (wishful deluded thinking?)?

Could it even be certified?

Thanks in advance.

Google....your answer....yes it can be done & it needs to be certified to be legal....
as with a lot of mods, there are process' & procedures to comply with, check with the RTA or go see adam (polak)
that is the simple answer to your question
Nath