My name is Mike McCarthy, I run a turbo car and have been breaking trans parts in the past. I was talking to one of the fastest guys on the East Coast here in the US about a clutch management system , thought I would pass on what I learned. If you are running a hydraulic clutch setup you can build it for around 120.00 . The purpose of the system to to contol how fast your clutch engages only in first gear. Berg had a system way back in the 80's called the " Antishocker", it was a great idea but caused slippage in every gear. There really are only four components to the system, a line lock, an adjustable spool valve, a switch, and a lever to engage the switch. I am going to lay this out in the order it happens to show what goes where and what it does. I will post some pics this weekend of my setup if anyone is interested. You sever the line between the master cylinder and the slave cylinder and install two of the components the line lock and spool valve there. On the line into and out of the line lock you install a tee. from both tees you connect a line to the spool valve. What you are creating is a bypass system. When you engage the trans in first gear you engage a switch which activates the system. When it activates it stops fluid flow through the line lock and forces it to bypass through the adjustable spool valve instead. The tighter you turn the knob clockwise the slower the engagement, c clockwise the faster. I have mounted my switch on my nose cone with a lever( paddle) mounted on a shift coupler I made for this setup. I know this sounds rather confusing but is so simple I am amazed no one came up with it years ago. At any rate, When I move my shift rod to first gear a lever on my shift coupler engages a switch. This switch has power going to it on one side and the other side goes to the line lock. The line lock has two wires, one to the switch and the other to ground. I will be going to the track and setting the valve next Thursday at a test and tune , again if anyone is interested I will keep track of my settings for use as a base for your car. The weakest link in a VW race car or really hot street car has been the transmission especially with drag race starts. I hope someone over there can benifit from this, it works pretty good on the Red Baron car. Mike
dangerous ·
Sounds great Mike,
look forward to seing your pics and hearing of your progress.
Streeter this week end?
dragvw2180 ·
Hey Dave,
I have the engine and trans done for the unlimited street car, thats what I am running in the race car for the time being. It ran 6.46 last time out but took the R/P out in the PRO MOD finals , my second one, thats why the C/management system. I am still collecting all my parts for the new project but we are finishing up John Toomeys USE car. Hopefully we will have both cars done for the first race in spring . I am going to download some pics, if anyone wants anything with a better shot let me know and I will take some hopefully better ones. I have to build a ful roll cage for a friend tomorrow and back on the USE car Sunday so no playing this weekend.
I just tried the pics myself and I am sorry they didn't download correctly, also I will take better pics of the engaement system for the switch, I was trying to get them on and did not realise how dark they were. Mike
dangerous ·
dragvw2180 ·
Thanks Dave, I will take some better pics of the switch setup tomorrow, Mike
stoker ·
mike, the setup you are trying on your clutch is identical to the one mike kristen & myself have been using for 2 yrs ,and it works a treat.On a turbo car seeing you launch around around 6000 r.p.m the car doesnt leave so voilently and you save r&p`s which is a big plus on the budget side. On the down side you go through a lot more black magic clutches but thats drag racing and keep the maintenance up on breakaway torque ( mine was 230lbs on a 1600lbs car) with a dual plate setup,also put the valve in the right way???(dont laugh it has been done). That spool valve in the photo is identical to mine ($40.00 from pirtek hyd) just make sure the seals are dot3 or4 compatible if not just run atf in the clutch,itdoesnt matter a shit good luck
vlad01 ·
thats a dam good idea. Especially for people who just side step the clutch 😂
I personally would never side step. I preload the drivetrain and sit a tinny fraction on friction point(keeps everything preloaded) while keeping the revs up,
then let go of the clutch in a fastish but controlled manner.
Guess this setup would make that procedure an autopilot function 🙂
dragvw2180 ·
Thanks for the input STOKER, I am using Tilton discs right now but may try the double BM 's later. How did you do your first gear switch, on the shifter or nose cone?
I was not able to work on my car yesterday , I bent and installed a full roll cage yesterday for a friend. By the time we got done it was late and I just wanted a shower and my recliner. I questioned the man whom I purchased this from about the seal and was told no problem , I bought two ( one spare) and if I have to replace it every year it will be cheap( $30.00 us) as compared to one R/P or axle. The thing about this setup is that it has been around but no one has passed the info around to everyone else . Think about how much money has been spent in the last year by VW owners who have had to replace driveline componants because of breakage. Anything that can move our sport to a new and better level and also save every enthusiast money is a positive with me.
Vlad I have all the electronics on my race car. My clutch is released when I release a button on my steering wheel . To be consistant on the tree I have a stop I push the clutch pedal down to everytime so that my reaction time can be controlled or adjusted by timer effectively. This setup will not make a bad driver great, but make a driver more consistant so he can improve. I drag my car into the lights with the clutch to light my prestage and staged lights on , so all the slop in the trans has been preloaded but my clutch cannot be dragging at all . Using the Delay box I try to keep my reaction times around .03 or less, a .00 anything is an accident. Mike
stoker ·
mike, my switch is on the nose cone so its out of the way of everything and cant be stuffed with?? We had a look at frank the banks car at the classic in 08 ,too bloody complicated for me so came up with this idea on the way home (you do a lot of thinking on a 15hour flight)
dragvw2180 ·
First gear
second gear
third gear
fourth
reverse
The electronics I use to control everything else
dragvw2180 ·
I showed the pics of each gear so the clearance of the paddle could be seen. This is a first prototype so its not pretty but I think it will work. If you don't mind Stoker I would like to see how you mounted yours and what it looks like, matter of fact anyone who has one on their cars please post them so we all can learn. This is the stuff thats keeps me coming back to racing, I just like to tinker around making stuff. I hope this helps someone come up with something better, Mike
reub ·
First gear
second gear
third gear
fourth gear
reverse gear
The electronics I use to control everything else
dragvw2180 ·
Thanks man, I went back and corrected it before I saw you fix it for me, thanks Reub
reub ·
No prob dude... Thanks for sharing the info too
stoker ·
no point in a photo off my g/box switch as i use a kombi box with a vertigate shifter setup but it looks as if your setup will do it fine, plus who cares what it looks like , if it does the job its perfect and the only guy to see it will be YOU
dragvw2180 ·
Hey Stoker,
If you don't mind telling me I would appreciate a base setting to start with for the valve. Mine has 4 turns total travel. Right now I have it 1 turn out from shut position. I plan on running it Thursday night for a t&tune at the local track, just have to bleed brakes and clutch. I will let everyone know how it does, thanks guys, Mike
stoker ·
mike
that is a bit of suck and see,check it on 1 turn and see how it feels and then go 1/4 turn at a time either way. We are running our supercharged car this w/end ,will let you know what we ended up with. Keep us posted on how you go good luck
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE ·
Post some pics up Dave of the set up on the Kombi box as I know I will be running a Kombi box as will my brother so some pics will certainly help!!
Or is that damm Secret Squirrel lurking around again hahahahahaha
stoker ·
get over it
dragvw2180 ·
Well we had to cancel out the test and tune for Thurday because it was too cold ( 36 F ) and today it is really windy out so we will try again Thurday . This is our winter but in the south we have alot of nice weather and we will have some 70 plus weekends soon. My first VW race will be in March, but I want to hit the v8 car races locally and keep some seat time. They run races as long as its not raining or snowing , which does not happen all that much down here, all winter long. Mike
dcuplover ·
the one problem someone posted on the ulitmate aircooled site is the adjusting valve is not meant to be used with brake fluid and will not last. You will need to keep a close eye on it. If it blows all the oil is puked out!
vlad01 ·
why don't you use DOT 5 or 5.1? its silicone oil based. But make sure if you ever use DOT 5 fluid to completely flush and dry out the system of DOT 4 and lower fluids as the 5 with not go well
with glycol based DOT 3 and 4. It will cause corrosion problem if not a dry fill with 5 or mixed/traces of lower grade fluids.
dragvw2180 ·
I am using a synthetic based fluid so I think I am ok, but I bought a spare just in case.
Since we couldn't go to the track we decided to tackle the rearwindow on the USE car, this isn't a very good pic but you can get an idea of what we are doing.
20bkombi ·
This is my set up, cost $0. just parts lying around.
P valve works a treat and the one way ball valve is cable operated from the shifter (1st gear).
It is a hill holder for from the clutch which is out of a subaru.
Just need track time to set rpm limiter/boost control and clutch.
20bkombi ·
With this setup you can lift the lever any time even before you depress the clutch.
It could be electricly opreated using a boot poper solenoid or by conecting the cable to the gear lever , in 1st only.
At the moment it is a fully manual lever mounted under the gear knob.This will do for now.
Looks ordenary, but better then ordenary looking gears (cw/pinion).
dragvw2180 ·
Thats a perfect example of why I love what we do, there are so many really talented people out there who are not afraid of thinking outside the box and coming up with new ideas for old problems. Thats a cool idea, please let us know how it works. Mike
humpty ·
Thank you so much Mike for starting this thread.... Exactly what I've been looking at for my POS turbo car.... And your solution Aaron is golden.... Awesome stuff!
ian.mezz ·
Nice car
dragvw2180 wrote:I am using a synthetic based fluid so I think I am ok, but I bought a spare just in case.
Since we couldn't go to the track we decided to tackle the rearwindow on the USE car, this isn't a very good pic but you can get an idea of what we are doing.
dragvw2180 ·
Thanks Humpty and Ian,
Humpty I would like to see the vw people come together and help each other bring our hobby to a new and higher level, If we can make ALL our cars be more competative and less costly to operate then now, then maybe we will have more money to get even better.
Ian thanks for the comment about the car, when we finish the last of the fabrication I will start a new post on what we have done. This is actually the second chassis we built for this car. It is a pan front, ladder back half that we fabbed up in my garage . The engine will have over 500 hp and will be driven on the street. Chassis has been certified for 8.50 by IHRA already . Mike
matberry ·
dragvw2180 wrote:Humpty I would like to see the vw people come together and help each other bring our hobby to a new and higher level, If we can make ALL our cars be more competative and less costly to operate then now, then maybe we will have more money to get even better.
Absolutely couldn't agree more......share the joy, Thanks Mike
dragvw2180 wrote:It is a pan front, ladder back half that we fabbed up in my garage . The engine will have over 500 hp and will be driven on the street. Chassis has been certified for 8.50 by IHRA already . Mike
OMG Mike, sounds awsome, I have been into VW's since the 70's and with the wonderfull resources available these days both in parts and information, it seems our sport/hobby/interest/community/business (substitute which ever combination suits your present situation) can't help but grow.
Thanks for your interest downunder.
I ran a Berg Washington anti shocker for a few years in my old drag bug. I found it could have been very effective, but had issues with the unit's consistancy in operation and adjustment, and as you said, it's there for every shift......
This set up is perfect and I love the electric control giving automatic operation. Well done.
dragvw2180 ·
Thanks for the replys, I have been having a hard time getting to the track to try the car out, it is winter here and it snowed out yesterday. As soon as I get to the track I will give some feedback and where the settings worked best for me. Mike
dragvw2180 ·
An update;
Well the weather has not cooperated at all and it is supposed to snow this weekend again. It is winter here and has been an exceptionally cold winter so far. I have decided to change my double Tilton discs to the Kennedy setup. The tilton discs are coated metal with no fiber material, I am worried that when I start to slip the discs that my wedgemated flywheel will take too much of a beating. I feel pretty sure Santa is going to send me some parts very soon. I hope everone has a MERRY CHRISTMAS, Mike
humpty ·
dragvw2180 wrote:I hope everone has a MERRY CHRISTMAS, Mike
Back at ya Mike.....
dragvw2180 ·
Another update, well we finally got some weather that allowed us to run the car. The first pass the clutch slipped too much, second pass we adjusted and added more clutch but still slipped really bad . The third pass we added more clutch, ripped the r/pinion out again. I am disgusted but know that I will find the combo of parts. I am going to change the pressure of my p/plate lower and change the material of the discs, I believe I will be running the Kennedy double disc system rather than my Tilton setup. I also want to find a better valve that is more responsive to adjustment. I have three weeks before our first race in Ga to get this all sorted and I hope the weather will co operate with me . Mike
humpty ·
Man that sucks.... I feel your pain though.... I know a guy who's into pumps and pneumatics... I wonder if he'd have a line on valve options?..... Might lay this problem on him....
Here's to a more successful outing next time
20bkombi ·
Hi Mike, looks like i went down the same road, I burnt my clutch on the first pass. The clutch was 3 1/2 years old though.
Im looking at a Tilton triple plate 7 1/4'' at the moment with sintered metallic frictions and pressure plate to help change from 1st to 2nd quicker (smaller diameter less work for the sincro)
The old one was 8'' twin with 4 pucks on each but riveted to the plate not bonded (3060lb pplate)
The valve worked fine so will keep it at the same setting with a new clutch.
What was the material on your old tilton Mike and how many runs did you get out of it, please.
This is my old clutch http://aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=78992&page=5
Aaron
dragvw2180 ·
Hey Aaron,
The discs I have now are metalic, they are very thin and the friction material appears to be just a coating. They do NOT like to slip. I am not sure these are the best choice for my application, in fact I am ordering a Kennedy double disc setup this afternoon. If you would like I will send pics of what I have been using.I will glass bead the discs and they will still look like new after 60 passes. Mike
20bkombi ·
dragvw2180 wrote:Hey Aaron,
The discs I have now are metalic, they are very thin and the friction material appears to be just a coating. They do NOT like to slip. I am not sure these are the best choice for my application, in fact I am ordering a Kennedy double disc setup this afternoon. If you would like I will send pics of what I have been using.I will glass bead the discs and they will still look like new after 60 passes. Mike
That would be grate if you have a picture for us to learn from. Sounds like the frictions are a very hard compound and grab hard.
Is the Kennedy your ordering like my set up with riveted puttons?
Thanks for the info as this could be a $1200 clutch that could be worse than what I already have.
dragvw2180 ·
The setup I have uses a cloverleaf floater plate and no dowel pins. The discs you were using are very simular to what I will be running from Kennedy. I spent some time today on the phone and gathered a little more information than I had before. Basically I am changing everything clutch wise and control wise also. I will be using a prototype clutch management system from " MEGA MACHINE",
as a replacement for what I had. It will be something that is designed for brake fluid rather than hydralic fluid. The control system is something that is soooo sweet and simple that I feel like kicking myself in the butt for not thinking of it. As soon as they have it available to the public I will post pics and prices on here.
On the transmission I have the parts coming for the repairs and Sam Shackleford from RANCHO advised me on my clutch setup along with the info I gathered from Kennedy and Dave Kawell. I have decided to drop my pressure plate down to 1700 with the double discs, like running a 3400 lb pressure plate instead of what I had before. I will be usiing two 4 puck discs instead of the 360 degree discs I have now, the combination of the two will reduce my griping power alot but should be plenty. I took some pictures of the clutch setup I have now and will post them tomorrow . The only thing I hope is that the new system works and I can pass on the combination to everyone else so that this will be a thing of the past for all of us. Mike
Pics of my present clutch setup, I have the new setup on the way.
G]
and damage
OUCH !!!!!!!!!
dragvw2180 ·
Hey guys,
Well I have been very busy getting ready for the race this Sunday in GA . Since I last posted I have replaced the clutch system to Kennedy double disc system using two sintered discs and a modified pressure plate. The whole package fit into my flywheel with no modifications to my flywheel. I have dropped from a 2300 plate to a 1700 with the double discs. I rebuilt the trans and replaced everything that even looked slightly damaged, so she is fresh. I removed the Clutch Management system I had and replaced it with a prototype setup . If this works out you will be the first to see it. It does away with the switches I had and is VERY simple and VERY adjustable. I am entering three races this weekend if nothing gets torn up. There is an import race on Saturday, a Pro Mod and a bracket race Sunday. I am also putting the car on the dyno at the Dyno day Saturday morning. Whew what a busy weekend we are going to have,hahhahahah Mike
matberry ·
Awesome Mike, on the setup and the weekend. What better way to test the new clutch......a weekend FULL of racing.
Good luck.......kick but. 🙂
humpty ·
Really looking forward to hearing about the outcome Mike...
dragvw2180 ·
Well we made the trip to Georgia on Friday afternoon, got near Atlanta and had to pull over and get some sleep, my long days had taken a toll on me , had been awake 21 hours. We got up the next morning , ate some grits and headed over to the dyno session. The ficility was really nice and the owners were very cool. They took the time to show us their antique cars. I warmed up the engine and drove down the street from where we parked to the speed shop to warm it up then let it cool back down a bit, damn thing sounded good. When it came to my turn we put it on the dyno, I rolled on the throttle in each of the gears, increasing the rpms with each gear. I shifted into forth at about 4k and rolled onto the throttle and put it to the floor. It sounded like a freight train and the engine was on kill. At 6000 rpms I felt something , then heard an unusual noise and I immediately shut it down. I walked to the back of the car and looked everything over but could not see anything wrong so I started it up. I had an exhaust leak on number one cylinder so I shut it down and pulled the J pipe off and changed the gaskets, fired it back up and the exhaust leak was still there. I had my friend John fire it up again while I laid under the engine and felt a leak below the head near the exhasut port. My weekend was done at that point because I didn't have a spare set with us. We decided we wanted to know what was wrong with the engine so we loaded up the car and drove home to North Carolina . We pulled the rig into my yard and hooked up power, tore the engine down. We found that I had broken a head down the center lengthwise. Evidently it was a bad casting and it is being replaced. On a brighter note I produced 350 rwhp @6000 rpm's. Next race is in a month and I have my backup heads ( Super Flow 48x40 valves) I will be putting back on the engine. I will be doing testing next weekend, am taking this week off with the wife and getting away from cars,hahahah Mike
humpty ·
Man what a saga!..... Sad, but awesome at the same time!.... You really live the life Mike!
dragvw2180 ·
Humpty, hahahahhaha Our SEVWA preacher came by my trailer as I loaded up the car and I asked him if he does EXORCISMS, hahahahahaah I will NOT give up on this car because I have invested so much work on it and it has the potenetial to become the best car I have ever had. It may be just a string of bad luck , but I am getting an education on what works and doesn't . Mike
dragvw2180 ·
I want to say I am sorry for not following up on this post for awhile but family health issues took me away from my race car . I went to the track last night with the new valve and my new control setup, worked flawlessly. I had a 60 ft of 1.42 and did not tear out the ring and pinion, boy what a good feeling. I made 7 passes and worked out some problems with the car, most caused by sitting for months . If anyone is interested I will take pictures of the new setup. The guys at MEGA Machine gave me a prototype valve which is larger and more adjustable than the other valve and I removed the paddle system and replaced it with an electronic timer control instead. I believe this will be far superior to my previous setup. Right now I have my timer set for 1/2 a second of slippage. This does not mean it slips for 1/2 sec but that the valve is turned on for that time. I am taking my wife to the coast today after she gets out of Heart rehab and spend some time at the ocean, plan to spoil her. Mike McCarthy
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE ·
Thanks for info Mike and hope the wife is on the way to a full recovery from her illness/bad health.
Post some pics of the valve etc you now have!!
humpty ·
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE wrote:Thanks for info Mike and hope the wife is on the way to a full recovery from her illness/bad health.
Post some pics of the valve etc you now have!!
What Brendon said..... Get to the pics when you can Mike.... Family first.
dragvw2180 ·
I was very lucky to meet David from MEGA machine at a charity event last fall that we both were part of. We talked and checked out each others cars and got into a discussion about the problems I was having and my CM system. David told me about their prototype and asked if I wanted to try it , so here we are. The setup is very close to what I had but the quality of the parts are better and alot more adjustable than before.
The hydralic part comes as a complete unit ready to use, all you have to do is plumb it between your master cylinder and the slave ,
I installed mine into the same location as the old one . Now comes the cool part, I no longer am using the paddle system I had before, it's all electronically controlled. I had a hard time trying to stage the car with the previous setup, car wanted to jump into the lights and slipping the clutch was impossible to stage it. I tried installing a cutoff switch but it was still rushed inside the car when I ran a PRO TREE ( .400)instead of a full one( .500 with all the bulbs ). David and I talked about it and I ended up buying another delay box and wiring it into my other delay box. Now when I stage the car I simply push a single button on my steering wheel, this locks my clutch, locks brakes, engages my 2 step and my clutch management system. Basically I have two separate timers that I start by releasing a button on my steering wheel. After the first timer relay disengages everything else the timer on the CM stays engaged for as long as I have set it for. This proably sounds very complicated but it is so stupidly simple that I want everyone to have it on their cars. If you do not want as complicated a system as I have it can be as simple as an adjustable timer relay tied into just your CM valve. A switch, timer relay and the valve. Right now I have mine set for .5 second and it worked flawlessly. I was so happy you couldn't slap the grin off my face after the first hard pass. If anyone is interested or has any questions I will answer as best I can on all of this. I will draw up a schematic or take pics of anything anyone would like to see, Mike McCarthy
matberry ·
Fantastic post Mike, thanks heaps for taking the time to share. Hope your health crisis is over.
Cheers
dragvw2180 ·
Thanks Matt,
My wife of 35 years had a heart attack a few months ago but is doing well. We have been back twice for pain but now we are going to heart rehab together, she's a tough old bird. I have been very blessed to have her.
My biggest wish would be that this new CM might save everyone some money by not tearing up their gearboxes so easilly. Here is the post on THE SAMBA for their ad for the valve,