Subaru Gear box

Hi Guys

Any of you drag guys looking at trying one of these subaru box conversions??

As with most people here those who do the Suby conversion boxes are waiting for some actual evidence on how they work. Last I read they still in the developmental stages and only 1 or 2 had gone into a car but no reports?

Yeh i here what you saying, It looks really good on paper,but you have that small thing telling you your not sure! Where are the ring and pinions made? are they Aussie made, some one nice like Albins?

It may be a bit tricky to get the vw motor to sit in the right spot once to fit a Subaru box to it.

CW/P I believe to be made in India. The designer claims them to be a very high standard. Time will tell no doubt as to how well they will handle our application. Crazy Col asked whether changing engine rotation wouldn't have been a easier option than manufacturing these parts overseas. All required would be a new cam and starter mods.

Worked for Corvairs, although with a vw engine there is other considerations like cooling fan and generator direction

I'm thinking about the subi box as a possibility once my current Lbug box gives up the ghost, like the others have said I'm waiting on the end product to prove itself abit more first.

Wouldn't it be better to just build a Subaru drag car. So sick of suby this suby that

I dont want to put a subi engine in my bug, I just want a good trans that dosnt cost me an bodily organ. build a real nice t1 box for my last 2276 with all the gear(sorry about the pun)Albins gears,quaife diff, gusseted case about $5000.its great but not 5 speed and i want a nice box for my 57oval 2165 turbo motor that will take the power(aim about 350hp) on paper it looks like a good idea, and just want to see if any one else is toying with the idea, would be good to here your feed back.

I'd like to hear from the guy building them. I thought he had the first one on the road already. Maybe it broke?

Hey Guys, Todd here from www.subarugears.com I'll try and answer all your questions.

Well it's been an interesting year with getting Subaru boxes up and going. I basically got things going by showing off the first completed box at the Nationals this year.
We put that into an EJ25 powered buggy and drove it for a couple of weeks. Did a few videos of it which are up on youtube (linked from my site). This was a basic $3700 box which worked well with the VW cable clutch and had no probs with the 31" tyres and power of the EJ25.

This box then got sold to a customer on the central coast who is converting a beetle to EJ22 power. His car is still on the way to being finished and will be on display at my stand at the 2011 Nationals. My second test ring and pinion was sold to a guy in South Africa who is yet to do anything with it which is a real shame, I had hoped we would have had another example on the road to show potential customers.

I ended up having to change supplier after the factory in India frigged me around for 7 months. Shame as their product was perfect. Offset Hypoid gears are difficult to make and not many gear factories have them. Albins do not have the ability to make them hence I had to stay offshore. The only factory in Australia who can make them is Dana/Spicers and they only want to know about Commodore and Falcon diffs. My new factory is in China. I have specified the same materials and tolerances as the initial set, with independent QA reports to confirm the quality of the product. I actually spec a much higher grade of steel than necessary, just to be sure that this is a top notch product. First set from this factory will be here on Friday and will get tested in the same EJ25 buggy. I am also fitting a Torsen LSD to put maximum strain on the diff to ensure all is perfect.

Interestingly, last week 2 sets of gears showed up from the Indian factory (they sent them to germany) so I can get an independent comparison of the Indian Quality vs Chinese Quality. I have had the same reservations about Chinese quality as everyone else but they have come a long long way.

Hopefully this 6 month delay to getting the product out there is now solved and we can get a flood of these onto the market. I actually have a bunch of backorders to fill for various vehicles so am sure you will see more soon.

We have a bunch of interesting cars that are going to have these boxes : EJ20T Kombi with 5 speed, EZ30 Buggy with 6 speed, EZ30 Kombi with 5 speed cable shift, EJ22 beetle, EJ20T type 3, EJ20T buggy, EJ22 Vanagon, EJ25 Vanagon...that's what I can think of at the moment.

Of course there's my 4WD EJ20TT Manx but I doubt I'll ever get it done with all this gearbox work 🤪

Some other interesting things I started making as accessories. I now make the 2wd locking sleeve that locks the box into 2WD, I make the block off plate to stop the oil leaking out the back of the box when the 4wd yoke is removed, I make Subaflanges which fit onto the Subie box and allow 100mm or 108mm VW/Porsche CV's to fit onto the Subie box.

If you don't want to go Subie engine I am about to start testing the VW aircooled to Subie 5 speed adaptor plate/bellhousing and flywheel conversion kit. This should be a big hit in aircooled California.

Currently having the VW 857 block (diesel TDI motor, petrol VW motor, Audi motor) to Subie adaptor plate/bellhousing conversion kit designed. Again, big market in USA and Germany for these.

We will soon see if we can get the VW motor to sit in the right spot with the Subie 5 speed conversion kit. I think with my extended Subaflanges that put the inner CV to the outside of the frame horns we will be able to keep the motor nice and low where it belongs.

I looked at the whole reverse rotation engine thing before I started this project. Sat down with Brett Middleton at MRT who knows a thing or two about this. You need 2 or 4 cams, then look at the water pump and oil pump as well, starter motor too. Then get the ECU to do everything backwards. With the advent of adjustable camshafts this becomes even more difficult because you end up advancing or retarding the cams the other way too. That would be some serious and expensive dyno time. For my money, that was all too difficult.

Hopefully have answered all your questions and explained a bit why you haven't seen more on the road just yet. Hope this is not too much of a 'commercial' posting on the forums, I am just trying to get the info out there so you peeps can make your own informed choices. Have a surf over to www.subarugears.com and keep an eye on our build threads over the next few months.

66deluxe wrote:Wouldn't it be better to just build a Subaru drag car. So sick of suby this suby that

yeah i thought the same. If you want to use other than vw use porsche parts. ie. 930 box or even a 993.

you ca pick up a 933 3.6L engine for a few k and it produces 270hp na and like 420hp turbo.

Good work ttriebler, you've obviously been busy. Thanks for the update, sounds like there will be plenty on the road before too long.

vlad01 wrote:

66deluxe wrote:Wouldn't it be better to just build a Subaru drag car. So sick of suby this suby that

yeah i thought the same. If you want to use other than vw use porsche parts. ie. 930 box or even a 993.

you ca pick up a 933 3.6L engine for a few k and it produces 270hp na and like 420hp turbo.

But they are not cheap, not easy to come by and not easy to fit, particularly if you don't want to cut through the torsion bar and body.

Otherwise everyone would be doing them. Instead they are doing Subaru conversions because they ARE cheap, easy to come by and a compact fit.

p.s. Subaru do a 3.6L engine that makes 255hp n/a

vlad01 wrote:

66deluxe wrote:Wouldn't it be better to just build a Subaru drag car. So sick of suby this suby that

yeah i thought the same. If you want to use other than vw use porsche parts. ie. 930 box or even a 993.

you ca pick up a 933 3.6L engine for a few k and it produces 270hp na and like 420hp turbo.

Dude if i had that kind of money i would have just brought a G50.

what? 4-12 k for a gearbox to much? shite! seems reasonable to me, considering what you are getting.

Which one of these do you run in your beast?

fast68 wrote:Which one of these do you run in your beast?

Yeah, I'd be interested to know what trans you've got in your's. Is it modded up? How have to found it?

BTW, Vlad, be happy to take you for a spin anytime your in Sydney to show you how nice a subaru can be, although I like aircoolers too. 🙂

p.s. Todd, like Ive said before, this R/P set is a great thing. Thanx for all the hard work. Can't wait till I can change over!

Thanks for the kind words guys. As you've shown some interest, here's a sneek peek at our latest development, the Subadaptor. Bolt your aircooled vw or Porsche motor onto this shiney plate and flywheel and get 5 strong, slick shifting gears. Still got some work to do but I think progress is promising...

Transmission bolts onto this side




VW/Porsche aircooled bolts onto this side





Transmission bolted up



Subie starter bolts onto transmission

fast68 wrote:Hi Guys

Any of you drag guys looking at trying one of these subaru box conversions??

Subaru 5 speed Transmission into Vanagon

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=407222&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

pete wood wrote:

fast68 wrote:Which one of these do you run in your beast?

Yeah, I'd be interested to know what trans you've got in your's. Is it modded up? How have to found it?

BTW, Vlad, be happy to take you for a spin anytime your in Sydney to show you how nice a subaru can be, although I like aircoolers too. 🙂

p.s. Todd, like Ive said before, this R/P set is a great thing. Thanx for all the hard work. Can't wait till I can change over!

I would love to have a 930 box but that being said just be easier and better to just get a rhino cased albins gear set and quaife diff, diff ratio?? hmm don't know yet, guess that comes after the engine characteristics are know. I hear Dangerous is the man for boxes 😵‍💫

as for subys, they just don't have that something special that vw's do. Too many people people do suby conversions. I don't do mainstream 😂 well seams that way these days.

ttriebler wrote:Thanks for the kind words guys. As you've shown some interest, here's a sneek peek at our latest development, the Subadaptor. Bolt your aircooled vw or Porsche motor onto this shiney plate and flywheel and get 5 strong, slick shifting gears. Still got some work to do but I think progress is promising...

Transmission bolts onto this side




VW/Porsche aircooled bolts onto this side





Transmission bolted up



Subie starter bolts onto transmission

Cool whats the flywheel? Custom or T1 modified?

Looks like it is shaping up well.
You may want to make sure the cylinders and heads and tinwear on the VW engine don't interfere with the adapter.

Albins can make any crown wheel and pinion that you might want.
They make them for all VW, Porsche, Mendeola, and anything custom.
I know they make sube gear sets and dog rings, but not diff gear sets?

Problem is that for this project to be viable cost wise,(us VW people are real tight arses)
the gear set must be affordable,
and so china or India is a lot less $.
As long as you demand a certain quality standard,
they should be fine.

vw people tight arses ? no that is just australia 😁

I don't work that. Direct European descendant brought up in a European family. 😉

You think aussie vw owners are tight asses? we got nothing on the yanks

lol

Albins can make any crown wheel and pinion that you might want.
They make them for all VW, Porsche, Mendeola, and anything custom.
I know they make sube gear sets and dog rings, but not diff gear sets?


No they can't. They were the very first people I went to because I didn't want to go offshore. They don't have the ability to do offset hypoid which is what the Subie is. Vw, Porsche and Mendeola are just normal hypoid.

That is weird.
Unless my terminology is incorrect,
type 1, mendeola, and the Albins AGB is spiral bevel,(which means the pinion and crown wheel are on the same centre line),
but bus and some Porshe has an offset in the centre lines and IS a hypoid.

Perhaps there is a limit to the offset their machine does,
but when I did a shop tour last February they were machining the bus ones right then.
The now make a 4.125 for the 2 lt trans,(by the way).

They also had a Gleason machine going in to speed up the machining time over their Klingelnberg machine.
Both make offset gears,
but perhaps not as far offset as Subaru.

vlad01 wrote:I would love to have a 930 box but that being said just be easier and better to just get a rhino cased albins gear set and quaife diff, diff ratio?? hmm don't know yet, guess that comes after the engine characteristics are know. I hear Dangerous is the man for boxes 😵‍💫

as for subys, they just don't have that something special that vw's do. Too many people people do suby conversions. I don't do mainstream 😂 well seams that way these days.

Vlad, you are still yet to tell us what you are using.

BTW, until you are armed with the info and experience to make these sorts of judgments, I don't really think it's fair to bag Todd's setup out. The same goes for Subaru conversions, you might not like them, but that doesn't mean they are bad per se.

I have tested the only going box, and it works really well. I cant wait to get the next one in a day or 2 and put it in my buggy. I certainly hope it works as well as the original as the Chinese factory seems to be more customer friendly. Hopefully I will have an update in less than a week. Also, if I get it in in time I will be taking it to Stockton dunes the next weekend!!!

So have you tested it out ?? Or is it just normal street driving that has been done with the box so far??

I think most here are more interested in the Suby box's ability to withstand punishement whether it be off road or on the track. Are there any out there in the next little while that are going to be fitted into a Bus?? Be interested to see how the extra weight with a lil more power will have any effect on the box.....

So far I am liking what I am seeing. Good work keep it up!!

Good point. It has pretty much been normal street driving. I have launched it fairly hard, but I have not held it at 5 grand and side stepped the clutch. I plan to do this and video it for people to see what happens. Not sure that off road work will put all that much strain on the box....much easier to break traction. Certainly dont think sand driving will over stress it. But I really need to get the next one in and do some decent testing as well as running up lots more k's. My buggy is about 900kg so the extra weight of a bus would also test it.

a good set of slicks would help test it !!

Box is being built at the moment. I've put a Torsen LSD into it so Mark can launch it at 5,000 RPM on his big 31" tyres and see how everything holds up. Hopefully he can take it to Stockton and see how well that LSD performs in a sand environment. Then next teardown we will do a 4.4 gearset and a clutch type LSD to see how that type of LSD performs on road and in the sand. Also sourcing one of those OBX 'phantom grip' LSD's (approx $400) for a turbo build to see if the 'cheap' LSD option is viable.

LIFE IN THE LOW LANE to answer your question yes there will be two here in Australia going into a bus in the very near future (I'd say mid Jan). Kombi with EJ20T and a Kombi with a 6 cyl Subie. Also a Vanagon in USA as 2WD with EJ22 and a Vanagon in QLD as 4WD with complete 4WD conversion powered by EJ20T.

Will keep you updated as we progress.

ttriebler wrote:Box is being built at the moment. I've put a Torsen LSD into it so Mark can launch it at 5,000 RPM on his big 31" tyres and see how everything holds up. Hopefully he can take it to Stockton and see how well that LSD performs in a sand environment. Then next teardown we will do a 4.4 gearset and a clutch type LSD to see how that type of LSD performs on road and in the sand. Also sourcing one of those OBX 'phantom grip' LSD's (approx $400) for a turbo build to see if the 'cheap' LSD option is viable.

LIFE IN THE LOW LANE to answer your question yes there will be two here in Australia going into a bus in the very near future (I'd say mid Jan). Kombi with EJ20T and a Kombi with a 6 cyl Subie. Also a Vanagon in USA as 2WD with EJ22 and a Vanagon in QLD as 4WD with complete 4WD conversion powered by EJ20T.

Will keep you updated as we progress.

To follow on from Dangerous's question, how does the tin ware fit up with the adaptor on,this would be a pritty important consideration and i cant see every one wanting to fit 911 cooling fans

I dunno. How does tinware attach to the motor? From the pix of the adaptor on the block, could you give an educated guess if it would interfere?
Seems like the adaptor plate doesn't interfere with any other part of the motor (with heads on...!!) but until I put one on a fully built donk I won't know.
Happy to do that and take pix if someone around St George area wants to play.

It would probably be easyest if you see if you can borrow a complete 1500 or 1600 engine with all the tinware on it, failing that put some put some barrels on your case with heads and borrow some tinware to check the fit.

Well I've asked a couple of times for a lend of a donor engine. Nobody has ponied up yet. Surely someone on this forum is close by and we can bolt an adaptor plate on.

It's also very important to get the engine in the right spot relative to the bodywork, but I'm sure your aware of this.

Yeah well let's get a fricken engine!! Still nobody piped up.

That's cause your in Sydney 😵‍💫

Yeah and there's no VW's in Sydney huh....

.....just fewer nice vw owners.😂😂

I have a complete 1500 beetle engine sitting here if you want to send the empty case and adapter up?

I have many complete engines or cars complete to fully stripped........but all in Queensland. 😂

I will just send the adaptor and flywheel to California. Plenty of guys there keen to try it.

your golden offer is there from dangerous...take it!

dangerous wrote:I have a complete 1500 beetle engine sitting here if you want to send the empty case and adapter up?

Cheaper than buying a complete car and test fitting it yourself, which was going to be my second suggestion.

Send it my way Todd.... I'll bolt it in next week!

I was looking at it today, the adapter plate is not going to clear the firewall tin but nothing a BFH or angle grinder wont fix

Thanks for the offer Dave, you da man. I've got a bit more machining to do to clear the starter motor pinion and I'll probably even send it up.

ttriebler wrote:Thanks for the offer Dave, you da man. I've got a bit more machining to do to clear the starter motor pinion and I'll probably even send it up.

I think that is the smartest move you can make, Dave is not only a great guy but is a VERY skilled craftsman who can Fab or machine up most anything. His input could save you alot of R and D time and money. Mike

OK we're progressing a bit more here.
Adaptor will need to be relieved more in the starter motor area to clear the starter pinion.
In fact it will have to be milled right through and a tiny relief cut out of the engine case to clear the starter pinion.
I don't think that's going to kill anyone but it does mean that dirt can get in from the engine side. Might have to do a little cover plate.

I put some type 1 and type 4 tinware on the engine and adaptor plate and both will fit. The type 1 tinware will need some tinsnipping along the top to clear and the type 4 only a tiny corner snipped off to clear. So I'm pretty stoked about that. This way pple can shoose to run tinware or not.

Getting the custom flywheels (type 1 and type 4) drawn up and made this week. Sussed all the dimensions/bolt holes and the custom pilot bearing so should have something to show in a couple of weeks.

Thanks to the guys that PM'd me and helped out with engines and such.

OH yeah forgot to tell you. I got that new test box going and it's in Blue V2's EJ25 buggy.
Built it with an STi gearset which is a bit closer ratio and has a longer 5th gear.
Also added a Torsen LSD which I'm told works beautifully on the tarmac, yet to be tested in the sand.
Makes the tyres squeal a bit putting the foot into it on a tight corner etc and I'm told is pretty nice and predictable.
The box has survived a 5500 rpm launch with both tyres squealing a bit and off she goes.

Uploaded another vid to youtube so you can see what the gearing is like :

Subarugears STi Torsen LSD test

thanks for the update, any pictures of the tinware?

OK hang on I will pit the tinware on the type 1 engine block tonight and do before and after shots and post.
I just did the tinware that goes across the top of the motor.

pictures??

Yeah pix didn't happen as it was too dark to get good shots.
I've taken the adaptor plate back to the cnc for more work along with vw and subie flywheels to get an ally stunt flywheel machined up for test fit. I'll send pix when I have the whole shooting match fitted up.

thanks, will you be able to offer a flywheel for a T1 scat flanged crank?

Type 1 flywheels will be drilled for 8 dowels and centre bolt - does that suit the Scat crank? Can also do the flywheel with flat back to suit flanged crank. Can do any pattern needed inc offset dowell if needed. Type 4 are drilled for 5 bolt but can also be drilled for 10 bolt if needed.

scat flanged is different to standard T1 crank and more like a T4,heres a link to what they look like.

http://ultimateaircooled.com/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=9727.0

Yeah I had a look before answering the thread. T1 centre size and centre hole with 8 x bolts and 1 x dowel. Then the flange area is cut off the back but with a slight centering ring to sit on the scat crank flange. No problems. Will probably need to get your scat flywheel off you to get all measurements absolutely perfect. I love it.

p.s. they are some nice nice cranks.....

OK one of my customers waned this affordable obx lsd in his race car. He got it $450 delivered to his door in North QLD and sent it down to be fitted to is '99 reversed subie box with 3.9 ratio.

We are putting the box together this week so will soon know how it goes once the car is finished.

For the interests of aussieveedubbers out there I thought I would post up some pix of what the thing looks like inside.

Its basically a Chinese copy of a quaife (and I would have thought not a problem to make some to suit vw boxes either).

Anyway, all looked good inside, there was no big bits of dirt or metal filings in there and most of the edges were nicely finished. Overall I would say looks good for the money.

How do the output shafts on these compare to T1 and T2 outputs out of interest?

fast68 wrote:How do the output shafts on these compare to T1 and T2 outputs out of interest?

If memory serves... They are smaller on the Subi diff.... Have looked at fitting a Subi LSD into a bus transaxle before.... It's a very doable option.... New bearing carriers would need to be machined to position the diff, and you would also need to create an adapter spacer for the VW ring gear... The of course some form of output adaption would need to be created...

Yeh have had a friend do it in a T1 box, was a cheaper option to a Quaife, but a lot of work. was just looking at the pictures above and throught i'd ask the question.

Why not get in touch with OBX racing products in the USA and get them to do a VW one? I reckon there would be plenty of demand for it. And hey $450 landed with no more to do.

ttriebler wrote:OK one of my customers waned this affordable obx lsd in his race car. He got it $450 delivered to his door in North QLD and sent it down to be fitted to is '99 reversed subie box with 3.9 ratio.

We are putting the box together this week so will soon know how it goes once the car is finished.

For the interests of aussieveedubbers out there I thought I would post up some pix of what the thing looks like inside.

Its basically a Chinese copy of a quaife (and I would have thought not a problem to make some to suit vw boxes either).

Anyway, all looked good inside, there was no big bits of dirt or metal filings in there and most of the edges were nicely finished. Overall I would say looks good for the money.

Will be interesting to see how this goes, Seems to be a lot of mixed results on the Net.

[quote
Will be interesting to see how this goes, Seems to be a lot of mixed results on the Net. [/quote]

The diff or the whole subaru box conversion?

Birdman wrote:[quote
Will be interesting to see how this goes, Seems to be a lot of mixed results on the Net.

The diff or the whole subaru box conversion? [/quote]

The LSD sorry.

Right I mocked up a subie box, adaptor plate and type 1 engine block into my superbeetle chassis forks engine stand today to see how everything lines up.

With the box and cv joints in the right place this is what it looks like :



First question is if the andgle of the engine and sump are OK. This pic has the sump level and the last part of the forks level. Is that how it is in the pan or are the back part of the forks tilted upwards? They are tilted upwards a bit on my engine stand but that is just an example.

Secondly, this is the distance from the end of the pan forks to the back of the VW engine - 55mm. How does that compare to an aircooled engine bolted to a VW box? If it end up too far back or too high up in the air there will be problems packaging everything in.



Your feedback would be appreciated before I go any further down this track....

From memory, your mock-up engine looks to be sitting a lot higher.... Have a look at the crankshaft/input shaft centreline to axle distance comparison this illustration from a VW manual...



OEM cooling tin will not line up with a TI/II engine bay if that is the case.... Not a huge issue really.... With conventional trans lift set-ups that is the case also.... We have just made the tinware and engine bay fit the new engine location.... The distance from the firewall to the crank case flange is the next issue.... By the looks of that, the top of the adapter/crankcase flange will interfere with the lower part of the firewall/package tray.... Again, not an issue as that area can also be modified.... The next potential problem is the nose cone clearance under the seat/firewall area.... Same story..... Nothing about this installation into a Bug will be straight forward.... The entire rear of the car will need plenty of modification to make this trans conversion work....

Thanks for the feedback, that's not a bad start! The nose cone clearance is not an issue, we have already sussed that. Will take your other points under consideration and see what can be done tomake the conversion as easy as possible. Doesn't seem too bad!

any new updates, photos??

a aircooled bell housing is usually in line with the end of the tuning forks, you still might be ok with what you have there

fast68 wrote:any new updates, photos??

Sorry no updates. I decided the design needs a flat bottom on the adaptor plate to allow meat for studs to be fitted, thus allowing for decent mount to be fitted. This still needs to be mocked up perfectly and I have loaned out my mockup box to a customer developing the type 3 gearbox and engine mounts. I should have the mockup box back in a week.

In the meantime I've been working on the automatic box for all those American Vanagon owners that want them.

Right, after 2 long days of measuring and fabricating I think I have managed a pretty good set of gearbox mounts.

Used some 40 x 60 RHS as the basic tube to tie the forks together, welded on some triangle bases to it at the correct angle and we have a solid platform. Small relief cut out for the bolt at the bottom of the VW engine.

Add some Kelbpro engine mounts designed for a Ford 250 cu in 6 cyl engine that just happen to have the right measurements to attach to the bottom gearbox bolts. This means the mounts can be used on both 4 bolt and 8 bolt subie boxes (as well as autos should that ever happen).

These mounts also have limiters on them should there be massive twists from torque. Here's the basic mount bolted onto the forks :



From the front angle, bolted through the adaptor :



From the side - note the clearance of the subaflange just above the frame horns :



The height of the VW sump once all is bolted up. The bottom of the sump is at approximately the middle of the frame horn bolts :



The hybrid type 4/subie flywheel has been drawn up in CAD, just need to make a sample aluminium one to make sure everything fits up properly.

That last pic is the clincher. Normally the sump is level with the bottom of the cradle mount. Looks like subi box lifts engine by nearly 2" or so. I'd say it's a little rearward too, as Humpty has said, all that is doable with tinware mods. One other thing is that engine remove/refit will definately have issues without a removeable apron, some exhaust systems may also have clearance issues.

Gears made in china wouldn't bother me at all. People tend to focus only on the cheap crap that comes out of china but their industry runs the full scale from backyard rubbish to fabrication to support the nuclear industry... It's all about the engineering and the QAQC systems.

Brilliant idea by the way, watching with interest.

Looking good!
Are the diff gears available to the public soon?

dangerous wrote:Looking good!
Are the diff gears available to the public soon?

Thanks for the compliment!
??????? been selling them for quite a few months now.
Direct to public via my website www.subarugears.com

We managed to put around 3000 kms on a set of 3.9 diff gears out of China, with a torsen LSD fitted. Used on the street and up at Stockton for a day too. Didn't blow up! Even a couple of 5000rpm dumps in there on tarmac.

Just stripped that box for a look and to change to clutch type LSD and the ring and pinion look good. Not everything out of China is junk - I overspec the material and they have a good QA process.

ttriebler wrote:Right, after 2 long days of measuring and fabricating I think I have managed a pretty good set of gearbox mounts.

Used some 40 x 60 RHS as the basic tube to tie the forks together, welded on some triangle bases to it at the correct angle and we have a solid platform. Small relief cut out for the bolt at the bottom of the VW engine.

Add some Kelbpro engine mounts designed for a Ford 250 cu in 6 cyl engine that just happen to have the right measurements to attach to the bottom gearbox bolts. This means the mounts can be used on both 4 bolt and 8 bolt subie boxes (as well as autos should that ever happen).

These mounts also have limiters on them should there be massive twists from torque. Here's the basic mount bolted onto the forks :



From the front angle, bolted through the adaptor :



From the side - note the clearance of the subaflange just above the frame horns :



The height of the VW sump once all is bolted up. The bottom of the sump is at approximately the middle of the frame horn bolts :



The hybrid type 4/subie flywheel has been drawn up in CAD, just need to make a sample aluminium one to make sure everything fits up properly.

Will you be test fitting the engine and box in a to ensure the tinware and exhaust fit properly??

fan pulley clear the boot lid?

Fan housing clear boot lid hinges?

Air cleaners on twin carbs?

Long list if that engine is back and up as far as it appears

hellbugged wrote:fan pulley clear the boot lid?

Fan housing clear boot lid hinges?

Air cleaners on twin carbs?

Long list if that engine is back and up as far as it appears

this stock vw has about 3cm 🥲between fan and engine lid hinge.
the tappet covers may also hit

Yep looks like some challenges to get it into stock beetles. But no challenges for buggies and unlikely challenges for Vanagons/Type 3's etc.
Once I get the flywheel back I will put one together and take it to a VW shop for some test fits into cars.
I'm wondering if the engine pulleys will hit the back of the car as well.
Fans are overrated anyway. Maybe the Porsche style ones provide more clearance?

Does it look possible to drop the trans further in between the fram horns? this would help the situation.

actually all but one version of the porsche fan for the vw is taller than the stock cooler

fast68 wrote:Does it look possible to drop the trans further in between the fram horns? this would help the situation.

Possibly a touch lower but not any further forward. May have a shot at a trial fit on the weekend.

In a Bug I would suggest running hood props (top and possible bottom) is a must for this conversion.... The OEM fan shrouds will be fine, though the top pulley will be an issue.... And a custom/modified exhaust will be a must.... Nothing comes easy.... If this box proves to be stronger (they are not very strong in a Subi by the way, but a VW will be a different animal) and cheaper than other transaxle options on the market, it could well be a very sound and sensible option.

A TIII will present an entirely new range of issues.... As will a Bus.

Keep at it!

humpty wrote:... If this box proves to be stronger (they are not very strong in a Subi by the way

er ...yeah... I think you will find that 3 million units (or whatever the number is) working fine out there will prove you wrong. Maybe they don't hold up well to idiot p platers with 20psi boost dumping the clutch at 6000rpm and then grinding them into 2nd gear. Anyway....

Thought I'd share some pix for those that are interested. A customer here in Sydney is fitting up an EJ22 and 5 speed subie box into his type 3 resto. He sent me some pix tonight of the dummied up drivetrain with the output flanges lined up for straight axles.

This retains the stock torsion bar, has some clearance notched into the firewall under the rear seat to give a bit of clearance for the nose of the box (similar to beetle install). The shifter bolts onto the vw shifter rod like the beetles do.

There's plenty of room at the rear of the trunk, clearance for the pulleys and so on. (I think a flat 6 would fit there as well by the way).

Looks like the drivetrain may even be able to be lowered more, not sure if enough to fit a flat trunk...??


[/img]

the axles on the subi box look a lot lower from the crankshaft centre line compared to vw transaxle

55mm difference. So using a subie box your engine (VW or Subie) is 55mm higher or your box is 55mm lower than a VW/VW or Subie/VW. Not insurmountable in the world of custom stuff.

ttriebler wrote:

dangerous wrote:Looking good!
Are the diff gears available to the public soon?

Thanks for the compliment!
??????? been selling them for quite a few months now.
Direct to public via my website www.subarugears.com

We managed to put around 3000 kms on a set of 3.9 diff gears out of China, with a torsen LSD fitted. Used on the street and up at Stockton for a day too. Didn't blow up! Even a couple of 5000rpm dumps in there on tarmac.

Just stripped that box for a look and to change to clutch type LSD and the ring and pinion look good. Not everything out of China is junk - I overspec the material and they have a good QA process.

That is good to know.
I think these are a viable option for those that want a 5 speed and can do a little fab themselves to mount it.
If people are worried about breaking the sube trans there is always the option of better 1st thru 5th gears from Albins.

I think these are a viable option for those that want a 5 speed and can do a little fab themselves to mount it.
If people are worried about breaking the sube trans there is always the option of better 1st thru 5th gears from Albins. [/quote]

If that's the case, I can't see why you wouldn't just do a Kombi box.
Please don't misunderstand me, if I could just get a Subi 5sp, throw the reverse diff gears at it, then chuck it in the back I reckon fantastic! As long as......

The end result is AT LEAST as strong as a built "L" bug SSP, preferably a bit stronger, like up to Kombi strength.
The end RPM at 100kph in the Subi O/D isn't too far below 3000, otherwise in summer there MAY not be enough cooling (in MY summer anyway).
The weight is within 20kg or so of the "L" box (again, the Kombi box weight).
Custom driveshafts aren't a $500 necessity to drive anything with it.

If these conditions are met, I reckon great! Well done that man!

I do have to back up Humpty though on the strength in std form. I've lost count of the amount of times I've hammered 12sec WRX's off the line for the first 100m in my old hotrod baja, becasue they were sick of fixing their Subi boxes, and so took it easy out of the hole. It isn't a myth, they're not all pimply-faced teens with no mechanical sympathy, 12's seems to be the mark where they stress the std box.

Hopefully though, with 400kg less weight, a lot less rotational mass (not 4wd), and 100hp less for your average 12sec Beetle, they should survive fine, even with a few years of 1.7sec 60ft times under the box.
Will the Subi box last through this OK?

Again, not having a go at all, these are genuine questions?

In the meantime I've been working on the automatic box for all those American Vanagon owners that want them.

As said above, sounds excellent.

The 4sp O/D auto would be my first preference too please!

Yeah no dramas modnro. The subi boxes aren't unbreakable as all things arent't. But most of them are designed for 206kw or so (more than 99% of power that people really run) with 4wd at 1500kgs or so. Running at 900 or 1000kg in 2wd gives you heaps more room, then if you use late model stuff, even better.

Boxes are lighter than Kombi. Width with my subaflanges is same as Kombi or beetle (adjustable) so just bolt up your cv's and axles.

End RPM's are whatever you want....4th gear is around 1:1 and 5th gear 0.78:1 so depends on your tyre size.

anyway...things are progressing nicely. My initial customer has now done over 4,000kms on his 5 speed subie box in his ej22 daily driver beetle with no probs. And the list keeps on groing...

Thanks for the quick answers man. And yes, for what it's worth, I reckon a 12sec Beetle is way less stress than a 12sec WRX obviously. For maximum launch, with enough cooling revs, I reckon that .78 O/D with the 4.44 would be perfect.

When do you expect the kit for the 4sp O/D auto version to be available? Same deal, 4.44 gears. Are the auto's to be original 4WD boxes too, or are the 2WD auto's compatible?
This is for a 5-bolt crank (Type4, Type5).

I wish I could answer that question with a bit more clarity. Testing & R&D always take 100 times longer than you would like.

Firstly I am going to test a fwd 4 speed auto box that is reversed and bolted to an ej20. Probably in a vanagon. If that all works out OK the modification will work for any/all subie auto boxes : 4 speed, 5 speed 2wd or 4wd, also 4wd converted to 2wd. I may have to make up some parts to easily convert 4wd autos to 2wd autos so that the housings don't spew oil out the back etc. That process will still take a few months from now.

Then we will move onto looking at how that can mate up with vw powerplants as well. My billet vw/subie adaptor plate for manual engines will also work with the auto box, will just have to look at the drive plate and either redrill a subie one or make a custom one to suit the vw engine and all the correct offsets.

Target is to have all that completed, tested, priced and released within 2011

Thanks again.
Redrilling the Subi one for 5bolt might be the easiest, possibly with a spacer flange between crank and flexplate, but I spose it depends on bolt diameter/spacing/PCD.
End of 2011! Holy crap, I hope so, but that's a hard task, best of luck with it though. I'll be watching man!

I have a Subi powered Notchback in the works at the moment, that would make a good platform for an auto box.... Currently thinking along the lines of a Porsche Sportomatic with manual shift, but I'm open to options.... An auto instead would make for a very cool driver and rapid acceleration!

😵

Hey Humpty, the Subie auto is HUGE and I can't shorten it as much as the manuals. I doubt it would fit in a type 3 without cutting into the torsion bar and/or moving the engine right back to the rear of the car. Time will tell what it actually fits into but the main aim is to provide autos for Vanagons.

humpty wrote:I have a Subi powered Notchback in the works at the moment, that would make a good platform for an auto box.... Currently thinking along the lines of a Porsche Sportomatic with manual shift, but I'm open to options.... An auto instead would make for a very cool driver and rapid acceleration!

😵

Just remember Humpty, when you launch the thing with the 100hp NO2 kit all in, an idle launch with HQ 90/10's will look very cool with the instant weight transfer!

We obviously have the very same thing in mind for the future........
Make mine grey primer. 😎