As you know I've been modifying vw auto's 1600 1800(003) and 2L kombi (010) for a while, and now in to modifying torque converters.
Bec's type3 13b turbo 010 auto
This is the latest one I've made to try and leave the start line with more rpm to alow the turbo to spool and take off quicker helping the 60ft times.
Left stock vw, Right custom made
Standard vw converter diameter 9 3/4"
this one 8.5"
Stall speed (when stationary apply foot brake and hand brake, or on trans brake, then accelerate till the car wants to move or turn the tyres, at this RPM)
This one is around 4000rpm, and lights the tyres at 4300.
bajachris88 路
Whens 1/4 mile testing time? 馃憤
nbturbo 路
Good stuff Aaron-what address do I need to put on my convertor to get it underway for the mods.????I ordered a Haynes Vanagon workshop manual from the States 3 weeks ago-it was supposed to have a full break down of the 003 and 010 autos - arrived yesterday, it's only got how to remove and replace the trans.I will try again to see if I can find something.Where are you getting all your repair stuff-clutches,O rings etc? I am keen to get stuck into mine.Keep up the great work you are doing pioneering the autos.
20bkombi 路
1/4 testing will be after i put some raybestos clutches in, insted of 2nd handy's, a kevlar brake band, pump drive and trans brake.
Alsow now i'm happy with the converter i'll take it apart and nitrite the center of the stator (sprag) and balance the turbine and the hole case.
[Good stuff Aaron-what address do I need to put on my convertor to get it underway for the mods.????]
Hi Greg, no worries mate!!!
Would be good to see when your engines torque curve starts, to know what o/a size and fin angle to use.
I have one for you to try, but would be best to tune it with a stock converter to achive power down low so when a modified conv is used it comes on stall and boost quicker.
20bkombi 路
Converter shops sharge around $1500-$2500 if you want a high stall converter. This is because down sizing to a different converter takes a lot of time to change the input spigot, all the splines x3, make it the right height, make the end float right, add needle rollers x3, mount the ring gear (vw only) furnace braze the fins and then balance every thing.
I chose the pump section which was already brazed (i think mazda 323)
on the right, also shallower
Brazed
cut the vw center out
Weld it in to the new smaller pump
machine it down and add a thrust shim for the bearing and to get the right height for the stator fins to pump fins.
20bkombi 路
The stator is in the centre of the converter and redirects the fluid into to the centre of the pump, the pump is the top or gearbox side of the converter and moves at engine speed ( attached to the flex plate). It sucks in the fluid and forces it out the outer fins of the pump. The fluid is then pushed in to the outer fins of the turbine ( conected to the g/box via the input/turbine shaft).
The turbine catches the fluid from the pump when you excelerate, and when theres enough pressure against the turbine fins the turbine will start to move (moving the car).
From the turbine, fluid is directed in to the back of the stator which has fins too. The stator is mounted to the g/box on a spline with a sprag (one way clutch). The stator stays stationary with fluid pushing from behind but on the front angle of the fins, as the turbine increases speed the fluid starts to hit on the back side of the fins which starts moving the stator the same directionas the turbine and pump. (conv's are never totaly locked up, unless a chutch is added.
While the stator is stationary and pump and the turbine are turning (car slowly moving), this is when torque is multiplied by up to 2.5times.
20bkombi 路
The stator and turbine are out of another converter again, make,???? The turbine was built stronger and held mor fluid. The sprag was a closer to the thickness to the vw one (26mm) then i machined it down further to make room for the needle rollers.
Bushes are used in vw conv's untill about 1985 where they used only one bearing between the stator and pump.
I put one under the turbine and also turb to stator, 3 in total. With pressure pushing down on the turbine from the pump ,the bearing under it helps with stall as well.
Changing the centre in the sprag to vw
stock vw below on left, modified on right
Machining for the bearings
20bkombi 路
I should have mentioned that YOU ARE ALWAYS CHECKING TOTAL HIGHT, END FLOAT AND FIN CLEARANCE!!!!!!!
The turbine, putting the vw spline in the smaller tubine
vw left
had to pack the spline up with a shim i made. The welds looks messy with add-ons, but i needed the height.
Turbine to stator clearance
20bkombi 路
The base which has to be able to bolt to the flex plate, also have to put the spline for the automatic trans pump (not to be sistaken for the conv pump)
vw right
cut the centre out of the small conv and make a step for the new centre to sit in
same for the vw base but step the centre, (CHECKING O/A HEIGHT)
make room for another bearing
20bkombi 路
And weld using a big bearing underneath to turn it slowly.
Weld some feet on it using the flex plate by locating it on the spigot (Check HEIGHT)
And machine
turn a step in the pump to set up end float with stator, bearings and turbine inside.
And weld using a big bearing
20bkombi 路
Last thing is to mount the ring gear. I used the leftover vw base, works a treat.
step the outer edge for the gear
Tight fit, tap it on
not much left of the orignal base馃お
Set at right height and weld
After all that its time to test.
From here you can change the stall speed by about 600-800 rpm either way depending on engine caricteristics, some people find it easer to change the cam.
Mabe an auto write up should follow??
happy days!!!!!!!
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE 路
Awesome stuff mate!! Work of art and I'm guessing many hours of mathmatical sums LOL.
BTW that lathe looks somewhat familiar!! Good to see it getting a good work out!!
20bkombi 路
Yep lots of sums, and its great to have a lend of a late, thanks Troy.
Bought some good cutters which make the late work way less and speeds up the process.
Should put an auto in your bus Brendon.馃槀
nbturbo 路
"Turbo Dude" Thats an awesome story and good pics.Just bought a repair manual from the States-for the 003 and 010 auto transmissions only.7 to 14 days to arrive.
dangerous 路
Nice lathe work dude.
Not bad for a wood guy!
mactaylor 路
timber blokes make the best machinist's as you cant weld wood!!!!! goes back to tho old adage "measure fifty times cut once"
VolksVair 路
Fantastic post!!! I never really understood the workings of a convertor, I just bought convertors from Dominator with various stall speeds and whacked them in, thanks for the insight cheers Frank
20bkombi 路
mactaylor wrote:timber blokes make the best machinist's as you cant weld wood!!!!! goes back to tho old adage "measure fifty times cut once"
Thanks guys, I'm learning to be patient with metal work, you can't just whip something up in 10mins and its finished. But most timber products just sit there and look good, and you can't drive a timber car!!!!. So metal stuff is much more rewarding and its all new to me.
I'll post some pic's on how to modify a stock converter, much easer. I have pulled one out of the car opened it up changed the internals welded it up put it back in still warm and tested it, in under 1 hour. so i did it 6 times in one week馃槀馃槀馃槀
Its all fun!!!!
Camo 路
Wow, you really know your stuff 馃憤馃憤馃憤馃憤馃憤馃憤
And I was going to ask if this was your business or just the home garage, great work either way. Makes me realise even though I am an old mechanic, I know nothing 馃槀
Kev
nbturbo 路
Makes me realise even though I am an old mechanic, I know nothing 馃槀
Kev [/quote] Not true Camo-you know enough to know what he is doing is good shit.
matberry 路
nbturbo wrote:Makes me realise even though I am an old mechanic, I know nothing 馃槀
Kev
Not true Camo-you know enough to know what he is doing is good shit. [/quote] 馃槀馃槀
Good stuff Aaron.
whathaveidone 路
Keep it up and we will all be using autos soon.
20bkombi 路
Funny thing is that I was never a fan of lazy autos, but since i've been playing with them i'm a changed man.
I'm getting back into dak-dak's after a long lay-off, and I thought an auto would be the go for a street-strip (a mild one) ride. After spending weeks frowning and getting headaches, your write-ups here are the best by a long shot. Thanks very much man.
One more thing you might not have considered for launch boost (it's a bike thing really, although a few Super Sedans and Modifieds are starting to use it over here at the Motorplex now too), is a 2-step. If you set the launch revs a bit below your stall speed, then (if you have EFI) program in extra fuel by using an extra input to the ECU when the 2-step is on, you get steady launch revs, a mild stutter through the exhaust because the 2-step is ignition controlled, which with the extra fuel will give an anti-lag effect for full boost on the launch limiter at the line.
That should shoot the thing out of the hole OK........
You wouldn't happen to have a spare Type 3 auto lying around would you? 馃槀
flattop 路
20bkombi..
Have you done any testing on the new convertor yet?? L
Wayne
dangerous 路
I think he has Wayne, but cooked some clutches again.
Untill then, it was working very well from the video that I saw!
When iot comes out again i think Aaron was planning to get the unit balanced.
Welcome to the forum by the way!
flattop 路
dangerous.
Does his car have a trans brake?? From the videos it does not look like he has one. The car does not move well of the line. Do you no any of his 60' times??
Wayne
20bkombi 路
You wouldn't happen to have a spare Type 3 auto lying around would you? 馃槀 [/quote]
I do but, it needs a full rebuild!! (003)
I havn't tried the 2 step yet, but was planing to when its all back together with a t/brake, chromoly pump drive, 300m turbine shaft and kevlar band and rabestos clutches.
I'm in the middle of making a full manual valve body too.馃
The square and the 20b bus are sitting for a while, as house reno's and new shed building (6mx9m) is on the go.
Hi wayne no t/brake as yet, so the best timed 60' was a 2.33sec. The boost didn't come on till after 60',
Now,,,,, 3800-4000 stall with 8psi then let it go and it lights the tyres all through 1st, some times 2nd!!! (if the clutches hold)馃槀
flattop 路
What trans do you use?? I have a reverce pattern manual value body for a bus trans. If you are interested let me know..
Wayne
20bkombi 路
flattop wrote:What trans do you use?? I have a reverce pattern manual value body for a bus trans. If you are interested let me know..
Wayne
In my wife's 71 type 3, I'm running a 76 bus differential housing (4.09r/p), and auto case which is tapped out for a trans brake and cooler. It has Audi 5000 4 geard planetrys and valve body, Audi 100 D/R drum modified with an extra release ball, drilled out oil entry gaeries, removed some return springs and clearanced to fit 5x clutches, I have 5 in the forward pack aswell. Useing old style thrust bearings (brass) and sone neadle rollers where posible.
There's more mods too.
I have the line pressure set at 175psi with a leaver to the throttle valve for street/race use.
I'm very interested in your man v/b, sending you a pm.
Aaron.
nbturbo 路
Me too.
modnrod 路
Me 3!!!
Although not just yet, I haven't even got the project yet, let alone anything else, just bits!馃槀
I did find out though, for future reference, the Cali Proformance Motoring automatic drag bug got a full manual reverse VB from TCS, http://www.tcsperformance.com/
His beetle has run a low10 with the auto. http://www.proformancemotoring.com/fireball.htm
Way faster than I'm aiming for. I think 12.91, 12.92, 12.91, 12.915, etc, ought to irritate a few people in ANDRA-land. It would bloody annoy me!
dangerous 路
modnrod wrote:Me 3!!!
Although not just yet, I haven't even got the project yet, let alone anything else, just bits!馃槀
I did find out though, for future reference, the Cali Proformance Motoring automatic drag bug got a full manual reverse VB from TCS, http://www.tcsperformance.com/
His beetle has run a low10 with the auto. http://www.proformancemotoring.com/fireball.htm
Way faster than I'm aiming for. I think 12.91, 12.92, 12.91, 12.915, etc, ought to irritate a few people in ANDRA-land. It would bloody annoy me!
That car is now owned by Mick Motors and has raced the last 3 VW Warwick events.
flattop 路
Is there a big difference between the type 2 and the type 3 auto. Which is better or is that a apples and orange question.. I have been using a type 2 auto for ten years with little problems. I do not know of any one here using a type 3 auto for racing...
Wayne
modnrod 路
The other guys know more about them than me, but from what I can gather the actual transmission section is the same basically, as in they have the same bolt pattern as each other and the Audi5000, etc. The bus auto is cast iron with the bigger R&P, same for your Vanagon, the Type III is alloy, 2 spider gear, smaller R&P, but quite a bit lighter.
I know there are other differences (eg. 003, 010, etc), but basically thats it I think.
While I'm here, does 20BKombi/NBTurbo/Seagull or Dave know if you can fit a Quaife or 4 spiders into the TypeIII auto housing?
mackaymanx 路
The Kombi's used two different autos, the 1700 and 1800 used the 003/2 while the 2L had the 010. The type 3 and type 4 uses the 003 with the mag alloy bellhousing/diffhousing and cast steel diff carrier.The valve bodies for the 003s were basically the same(five different governor/valve body combinations) with the type 2 and 4 having a valve assembly with a 3-2 accumulator. The 003/2 in the type 2 has the heavy cast steel bellhousing/diff.
Auto/diff sections are not interchangable between the 003 and 010.
The Bentley for the type 3 and Vanagon T3 have a good sections on the autos. I have a scanned copy of genuine VW service manual for the 003 auto section and the 003/2 diff section.
nbturbo 路
The 2 types of heavy cast iron diff sections for the Kombi's are also way different internally.I tried to fit my spool into a 003 equipped diff,and there is no way it would fit in,the carrier bearings and adjuster cones are different.
nbturbo 路
""I do not know of any one here using a type 3 auto for racing...""
I have a Type 3 auto in my Oval with a Type 4 engine and I have drag raced it a fair bit with no issues.I had a lot of work done to it to take the big increase in torque that was heading it's way.
flattop 路
Thanks.
Is there many different R & P for the type 2 and 3 ?? Will the type 3 R & P fit a type 2????
Wayne
20bkombi 路
flattop wrote:Thanks.
Is there many different R & P for the type 2 and 3 ?? Will the type 3 R & P fit a type 2????
Wayne
Hi Wayne 4.36 (1800 bus) or 4.09 (2L bus) would fit yours. Do you know which one you have?
20bkombi 路
This is a race converter I made for Wayne Goddard, unfortunately his engine failed when testing but still got some half track and 60ft times.
The old converter stalled to 3500rpm on the trans brake with 1.68 to 1.70 60ft's.
This one I made stalls to 4200rpm using the trans brake with 1.56 60ft
That's awesome for a NA vw engine.
.
20bkombi 路
The next converter I make for my new type3 notch will be billet aluminum and be able to unbolt to change turbines, stators and for servicing.
Being billet I can make it with some total lockup clutches using a 12v solenoid so the ecu can control it.
lou0060 路
and all this with one eye....
Aaron, you're a freak!
20bkombi 路
lou0060 wrote:and all this with one eye....
Aaron, you're a freak!
No this was quite a few months back when I had good sight.
I hope that Wayne and his wife Angela (crew chief) from Canada, get the bug back together for some more runs soon.
nbturbo 路
Guess I had better get an early order in for one of the billet ally units. Like how your always doing stand out research into the auto trans path-you are a credit to the VW Drag Community.