Poor old Alyce's engine is starting to get a little tired. So I'm starting to throw ideas around for a rebuild.
I drive the car daily so I need a reliable engine, that's halfway reasonable on fuel.
The car is also regularly taken offroad. What mods/parts should I use to maximise the low down torque for offroading?
Does more stoke = more torque? Like in a diesel? Or is it a different set of rules for petrol flat fours?
Can you buy a cam that is ground for more torque? I don't really mind about sacrificing a few revs either. It's not a race car, I use it offroad and as long as she pulls 120km/h on the highway for overtaking I'm not too phased.
Any thoughts/suggestions/ideas/combinations will be appreciated. What combo would you recommend?
Thanks in advance.
Smiley 馃槑
baghall 路
Sorry smiley can't help you with tech info but would encourage people to give generously with info cause I am interested in this topic as well.
What engine are you currently running smiley?
Smiley 路
baghall wrote:Sorry smiley can't help you with tech info but would encourage people to give generously with info cause I am interested in this topic as well.
What engine are you currently running smiley?
As far as I know it's a 1300 singleport. It's running a 1500 single port manifold, with a 31PICT carb, and 009 dissy. Oil is currently leaking from everywhere, and judging by the noises and rattles it's making and the slowly declining power I might have maybe 6 months tops left in her.
Smiley 馃槑
matberry 路
I'd recommend a 1915 as a first upgrade. Heads and carbs depends on what you can afford, but definately displacement is the easiest first step in the search for more torque and bottom end grunt.
Smiley 路
matberry wrote:I'd recommend a 1915 as a first upgrade. Heads and carbs depends on what you can afford, but definately displacement is the easiest first step in the search for more torque and bottom end grunt.
Are 1915 reliable? That's what I'm chasing more than anything else. I do around 30000km a year minimum in the vehicle so I want it to last as long as possible.
Smiley 馃槑
matberry 路
You can make any engine reliable. It's the parts you use and the assembly details that make an engine provide the best power and most reliability. Also careful attention to the complete build.....cooling system and lubrication improvements are the most obvious yet regularly overlooked upgrades. I expect after the basic rebuilding costs, some people can't afford to do all the required improvements or just are in the dark as to what is required when you increase the power output sometimes twofold and beyond.
fish26 路
good type 4 with upright conversion, torque + longevity.
Smiley 路
matberry wrote:You can make any engine reliable. It's the parts you use and the assembly details that make an engine provide the best power and most reliability. Also careful attention to the complete build.....cooling system and lubrication improvements are the most obvious yet regularly overlooked upgrades. I expect after the basic rebuilding costs, some people can't afford to do all the required improvements or just are in the dark as to what is required when you increase the power output sometimes twofold and beyond.
Ok. I understand what you're saying. So lets build me an engine, on this thread, what would be required?
1600 twin relief case as a starting point? Bored out to 94mm.
What's next?
Smiley 馃槑
Smiley 路
fish26 wrote:good type 4 with upright conversion, torque + longevity.
I've heard that they are a lot heavier than a type 1 and that the cost to rebuild them is heaps too. Is there any truth to these rumours?
Smiley 馃槑
matberry 路
Type 4 is good too, I have one in my baja. They have great torque, but I also believe more $$ to build. As a starter you could buy a running Type 4 and spend the bucks to do the conversion, and later hot it up when you feel the need.
barls 路
i think from memory when i got my car blue slipped a few years ago. its about 40kg difference between that and stock if that but that was also including the dyno mat i installed while rebuilding.
stock t4 with cam and carbs is enough trust me. mines stock with a mild cam and 40mm dels, it cruises 110kmh all day up and down the freeway without slowing on hills.
Smiley 路
barls wrote:i think from memory when i got my car blue slipped a few years ago. its about 40kg difference between that and stock if that but that was also including the dyno mat i installed while rebuilding.
stock t4 with cam and carbs is enough trust me. mines stock with a mild cam and 40mm dels, it cruises 110kmh all day up and down the freeway without slowing on hills.
40kg is a fair difference when it's hanging out the back. My car already understeers quite badly in the wet.
Smiley 馃槑
fish26 路
They are not much heavier and marginally more expensive if you are building a stock type 4, see if you can find a low km rebuilt longblock and work from there.
If you want a type 1, I would build a 1776 with mild cam , stock valve slight port heads, stock flywheel, full flow, etc.
matberry 路
Smiley wrote:So lets build me an engine, on this thread, what would be required?
1600 twin relief case as a starting point? Bored out to 94mm.
What's next?
Smiley 馃槑
Minimum and off the cuff
Reground/balanced stock crank
Reconditioned rods
94mm bore kit
Cam and lifters (new IMO)
Bearings
Seals
Heads.....this is where variations start come into it. Carbs and heads and custom chambers/ports etc etc. Once some improvements are made here you then need to upgrade valve train components.
Full flow mods
Head mods for effecient chambers and cool running
Oil pump
Then extras that are normally going to be required
Clutch upgrade
Exhaust
balancing
oils and filters and ignition components
Sounds cheap........ 馃檪
fish26 路
I like the wavelength you're on Matt.
barls 路
Smiley wrote:
barls wrote:i think from memory when i got my car blue slipped a few years ago. its about 40kg difference between that and stock if that but that was also including the dyno mat i installed while rebuilding.
stock t4 with cam and carbs is enough trust me. mines stock with a mild cam and 40mm dels, it cruises 110kmh all day up and down the freeway without slowing on hills.
40kg is a fair difference when it's hanging out the back. My car already understeers quite badly in the wet.
Smiley 馃槑
not really when you consider some of that is the dyno mat i installed as i said, back parcel shelf and other areas. is say no more than 25kg in the engine once its stripped back to long block.
fish26 路
I worked mine out between 20-22kg depending on configuration. F#%$k all really, and also narrower so easy to tune the carbs.
vlad01 路
type 4 FTW!
nuf said.
Carter 路
type 4 engine. last longer cases better suited to more power / torque. get rid of stock type 4 cam, replace with something slightly lumpier, dual carbs (dellorto's imo), go.
Smiley 路
I don't really think I can afford to go to a type 4 engine.
It's not going to be a cheap exercise.
Smiley 馃槑
Joel 路
Type 4 fits the bill but definately not very budget effective.
I started a type 4 conversion on my bug back in 2002 and stopped cos of costs back then, can only imagine what its like now.
Finding a good core to rebuild can be tricky, most have been raped in overloaded and under maintained kombis for the last 30+ years by careless owners.
Carbs, cam and exhaust can make or break a torquester engine.
If it was me I'd be building a 1776 or 1916 with with stock carb, mild cam like a w100 and a decent exhaust, and abit of head work if budget allows.
That should give you a good balance of power, torque, fuel mileage and lifespan but be good offroad too.
Again thats just me though.
Smiley 路
Joel wrote:Type 4 fits the bill but definately not very budget effective.
I started a type 4 conversion on my bug back in 2002 and stopped cos of costs back then, can only imagine what its like now.
Finding a good core to rebuild can be tricky, most have been raped in overloaded and under maintained kombis for the last 30+ years by careless owners.
Carbs, cam and exhaust can make or break a torquester engine.
If it was me I'd be building a 1776 or 1916 with with stock carb, mild cam like a w100 and a decent exhaust, and abit of head work if budget allows.
That should give you a good balance of power, torque, fuel mileage and lifespan but be good offroad too.
Again thats just me though.
That's for your advice. What is a w100? I don't speak cam.
I was thinking about a 1916 but was talking to one of my friends up here today and he said that the walls are thinner than a 1776. And I have to watch how hot it's going to be given the heat up here.
Smiley 馃槑
Joel 路
If you get good quality P&C kit the difference between 90.5 and 94 is minimal.
It's the same work to bore for both and kits generally cost the same anyway.
They actually make a thick walled 92mm kit now thats thicker than both of them. uses 94mm bore size.
You don't wanna go too aggressive with the cam when making an engine for off road seeing as 1 minute it will be low revving along then next flat stick up a hill.
W100 is pretty well the baby of engle cams, going bigger is geared more toward twin carb street engines
Craig Torrens 路
Smiley wrote:I was thinking about a 1916 but was talking to one of my friends up here today and he said that the walls are thinner than a 1776. And I have to watch how hot it's going to be given the heat up here.
Smiley 馃槑
Dont listen to that proganda bullsh*t, 94's are fine
vlad01 路
94's are one of the thicker jugs but have the least surface area because there fins are smaller due to the size of the jug eating away from that area.
So yes watch for heat, No. 1 enemy of the air cooled engine or any engine for the mater of fact.
matberry 路
The biggest trap is that as engine displacement increases, all things staying equal, your compression ratio also increases. This is because CR is the ratio of the engine capacity divided into the combustion chamber volume. So for every engine combo, the CR needs to be adjusted and it's how you do this that can make the engine efficient (read cooler running and more power) or inefficient (read hot and sluggish). That IMO is why so many bigger engines end up with the bad rap of being unreliable. Set the CR correctly and have an effective cooling system and any engine size available to you.......I'm presently planning a 2550 for a client and I'm sure he doesn't want it unreliable 馃檪.
BiX 路
My Old motor was a great little torque motor.
1776,
Balanced std crank and rods
W100 cam
Stock heads with a 3 angle valve job and mild port and polish
009
full flow, with filter and extra cooler (though it ran cool most of the time, unless you drove for about 20 mins or in the peak of summer)
CR was about 8:1, I think a little step up from the std, but not buy much
Twin 40mm Dells
semi merged extraactors
hellbugged 路
some well written/explained advice there matt!
Smiley 路
So what's a good CR to aim for with a 1776/1916 engine?
And where do people buy there parts from? I might price up a few different engine combinations and see what suits me best. I'm not looking from a slagging of businesses, I just want to know where you buy your high quality engine parts from? And what brand are they?
Have been looking at the CB Performance website, but $186 for a stroker crank seems a little cheap? Prove me wrong?
So no one on here has ever bought quality engine parts before?
If you not comfortable posting up on the thread with where you get stuff from PM me. But I really need to know ASAP because the engine in my vehicle is going downhill fast!
I've decided to go with a 1915, stock bottom end, stock heads with a polish out, stock cam ( or should I use the W100?) twin Kadrons/webbers/somethings. Running full flow oiling with an external spin on filter and maybe an external cooler.
Can anyone see any problems with this setup? What is wrong? What should I change? Any advice appreciated.
Smiley 馃槑
Craig Torrens 路
DO NOT USE A STOCK CAM...........if you do, the engine will be a dog and run HOT. A stock cam is not designed to fuel a 1916cc motor.
Smiley wrote:So no one on here has ever bought quality engine parts before?
Yes Smiley, I've bought parts, I sell some too. Hard to recommend any particular one place as I shop around and get different parts from different suppliers. Give me a call for some more details.
Smiley wrote:I've decided to go with a 1916, stock bottom end, stock heads with a polish out, stock cam ( or should I use the W100?) twin Kadrons/webbers/somethings. Running full flow oiling with an external spin on filter and maybe an external cooler.
Smiley 馃槑
Stock bottom end is fine, but for dual carbs, I'd go with some better than stock heads with a cam to suit. The biggest hassle is the dual carbs need some careful attention regarding air filtration, with a baja, dual carb air cleaners are right in the firing line of large volumes of dirt and dust, so the std setup that's meant for a streeter wont cut it. Thats why many offroaders end up with a center mount single carb, more torque too, but with mild heads on a 1915, a single 44 IDF goes nicely, all beit, you will want more once you get used to a setup like that.
Definately go fullflow oil filter, a cooler can be added if needed.
It all comes down to budget.....and time.
Gracey 路
I'd contact Stan Pobjoy for one of his 22/62 cams, he uses and recommends these for engines built with torque in mind.
Carter 路
do a bit of research into dellorto's before you choose webers. There are many people who suggest that they are superior for what ever reasons.
fish26 路
Dells have a better progression circuit, smoother transition. As for cam the 22/62 is a nice one for torque it has the same specs as Resolit AP 3 only with more lift, can be used with twin carbs and better than stock heads and either stock or ratio lifters.
Or you can convert a stock Type 4 for less than 3K 馃槈
Smiley 路
fish26 wrote:Or you can convert a stock Type 4 for less than 3K 馃槈
I don't want an old engine though. So it would probably be considerably more then 3k after I rebuild the engine.
Smiley 馃槑
fish26 路
Plenty of good information given in this thread, go out and get it built whether T1 or T4, also please upgrade your brakes, tyres and suspension if you haven't already done so.
I have seen stock rebuilt T4 longblock on this site for 2K, but I am assuming you can do some of the work yourself hence the 3K conversion I had in mind.
I am also wondering how much an engine rebuild by a professional you think is worth or what your realistic budget is?