G'day everyone, I am new to this site I recently joined after getting a renewed interest in vw's mainly Bajas. I have been looking to by one but I have a few questions before I do.
I am curious as to what a Baja is like to drive at highway speed with say 31" tyres and a 1600 twin port engine is there enough power to maintain 100 kph on most hills or is it advisable to look for a car with a larger engine ? Sorry if this sounds like a rediculous question but I have had very little to do with these cars.
I have seen some cars advertised with 1770 cc engines which I assume is a 1600 with a big bore kit fitted ,is the difference between the 1600 and the 1770 engine dramatic, do they have different charastics to drive or does the 1770 simply have more power ? Are they reliable , I'm not looking for a rocket just something with strong power and reliable if thats possible.
I'd appreciate any advice, thanks.
baghall ·
Gidday and welcome.
My baja currently has a 1600tp and 31" rear. Really doesn't like hills, but when I had the 1776 in it performed much better. However, I have lost 4th gear due I think, to the forces involved in driving the 31s. Currently looking for a kombi box to fix this problem, lower ratios and stronger box.
As far as I know big bore kits won't affect reliability too much but strocking can.
Smiley ·
I also have a Baja with 31's and currently a 1600tp.
I drive it every single day, it does slow down a bit on hills but isn't too bad.
There are three things you can do to remedy this. More power, different gearbox, or smaller tyres.
I used to have 30"s on it and I noticed the small drop in performance when I went to the 31's.
Smiley 😎
bajachris88 ·
will the kombi 3 rib shudder at the sight of hills still?
Smiley ·
bajachris88 wrote:will the kombi 3 rib shudder at the sight of hills still?
I doubt that.
Because the 3-rib is the lowest ratio gearbox when you're doing 100km/h it'll be reving quite a bit more. So it's more likely to want to pull itself up at speed. When an engine is labouring hard to push a car through the air at 100 plus then you throw gravity on top of that when you hit a hill. When your revs are lower you lug more and slow down.
Plus the blower you are putting on will help anyway with bulk torque 😀
Smiley 😎
Fueldup ·
Thanks for the welcome and the replies, Baghall is there any reason you have gone back to the 1600 ?
So all I need now is a Baja with a 1770cc plus engine with a combie gearbox and 30' tyres and that should make for a decent highway runner ?
I have seen a Baja advertised in SA with a 2 ltr combie motor fitted is there any problems with such a setup ?
I have seen some crazy setups on here with Subaru power amongst other things but I can imagine that sort of thing would present a whole heap of problems especially with so much hp on tap, I kind of like the simplicity of the old air cooled vw so if I can find something clean and straight with a slightly larger engine I think I would be happy.
Thanks again guys.
DubCrazy ·
bajachris88 wrote:will the kombi 3 rib shudder at the sight of hills still?
NO!! i had the 3 rib kombi in mine and its low ratios mean its fine on road and awesome offroad
steff.........
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Thanks for the welcome and the replies, Baghall is there any reason you have gone back to the 1600 ?
So all I need now is a Baja with a 1770cc plus engine with a combie gearbox and 30' tyres and that should make for a decent highway runner ?
I have seen a Baja advertised in SA with a 2 ltr combie motor fitted is there any problems with such a setup ?
I have seen some crazy setups on here with Subaru power amongst other things but I can imagine that sort of thing would present a whole heap of problems especially with so much hp on tap, I kind of like the simplicity of the old air cooled vw so if I can find something clean and straight with a slightly larger engine I think I would be happy.
Thanks again guys.
You're starting to get the idea of it now.
You won't have to go as big as that. a 1600 will suit your purpose for a daily driver. I did 80000km in mine in two years with a 1300 in it. Have only just put the 1600TP in.
There are 3 different Kombi boxes that are usually used.
3-rib - Lowest ratios, great for offroad and low down crawling.
5-rib - Midrange ratios, best all rounder and good for a daily that does a fair bit of driving on the road. But stills sees a lot of offroad action.
6-rib - Highest ratios, good for a car that does a lot of highway work and rarely goes offroad. That being said the ratios are too high for a stock 1600, but if you have a bit more power to turn big wheels this gearbox will sit your revs a lot lower at highway speeds, quieter and better on fuel if you're doing bulk highway miles. Also the strongest box and many people put Subarus behind these. But when you have that much power compared to stock the higher ratios don't bother you as much.
You should ideally be looking for a 3-rib, but if you do a lot of highway driving I'd recommend a 5-rib so it's not screaming it's tits off.
With tyres I would personally go with 31"s.
When my pair of 30"s got wrecked by a tyre shop I was going to get 30 inch ones again. But they were $100 more per tyre than the 31's from the same manufacturer!! 31"s are just a far more common size and more readily available.
Happy hunting!!!
Smiley 😎
Fueldup ·
Thanks Smiley, so 3-rib will be good offroad and still allow you to maintain highway speeds or will it be really screaming at 100 where as a 5-rib may be a good comprimise. Where does a standard beetle box fit in with it's gearing I imagine they are geared pretty tall. Anyway what does the rib stand for on the end of these gearbox models.... it's not half obvious that I know very little, so thanks for the helping hand.
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Thanks Smiley, so 3-rib will be good offroad and still allow you to maintain highway speeds or will it be really screaming at 100 where as a 5-rib may be a good comprimise. Where does a standard beetle box fit in with it's gearing I imagine they are geared pretty tall. Anyway what does the rib stand for on the end of these gearbox models.... it's not half obvious that I know very little, so thanks for the helping hand.
With regards to the Beetle box that depends on what year model you have and whether it's swing axle or CV rear end.
Here's a rough breakdown from the information I have.
The rib number is the ribs across the top of the Kombi transaxle.
3-Rib Kombi
1st - 3.88
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.82
R&P - 5.375
Final - 4.4075
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2970
5-Rib Kombi
1st - 3.8
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.88
R&P - 4.857
Final - 4.27
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2880
6-Rib Kombi
1st - 3.8
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.88
R&P - 4.57
Final - 4.02
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2710
Late Beetle IRS - The ratios on these are really way too high to use them with any larger tyre. I personally would never consider this box as an option if you plan to go offroad at all.
1st - 3.78
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.26
4th - 0.93
R&P - 3.875
Final - 3.6
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2428
Beetle Swingaxle 1965
This is what I have in my Baja at the moment, scoots along quite well, could be lower ratio for the offroad work and holding speed on the highway. There are other ratios from different year swingaxle boxes too. I'm looking to convert mine to IRS and do a gearbox swap. But I'll be using something else that I haven't mentioned here.
1st - 3.8
2nd - 2.06
3rd - 1.32
4th - 0.89
R&P - 4.375
Final - 3.89
Revs at 100km/h with 31"s - 2623
If you need anything else let me know.
Smiley 😎
Fueldup ·
Geez Smiley your a wealth of imformation, I never expected quite so much detail but it is a big help. I am starting to think that getting a baja with all I am looking for may be near impossible so a gearbox change may be in order after I find something but there is no great rush. I am making out a list of all the important things to make a baja that I think I will be happy with, I had'nt really considered the gearbox to be quite as important as some other things but it seems more critical than engine size.
What about brakes do you find the standard drums up to the job or are discs something I should put on the list ?
matberry ·
Smiley and others have got you definately on the right track, All good advice above.
Fueldup wrote:I had'nt really considered the gearbox to be quite as important as some other things but it seems more critical than engine size.
This is sooo true, most people don't get it until thier car is on the road and they wonder why it's overheating and doesn't go up hills !!!
That's the other part to the equation, fan speed is directly related to engine rpm, so as the gearing is changed with the big dia. rubber, the engine generates more heat by getting out or it's rpm band where it's making good power and torque, but the fan speed is reduced too so the cooling air is also reduced. A bad combination as you could imagine.
Fueldup wrote:What about brakes do you find the standard drums up to the job or are discs something I should put on the list ?
Factroy brakes are ok for a stock or near stock powerplant. The first upgrade that really goes hand in hand with the big tyres is to step up to type 3 rear brakes. They have a wider lining and larger diameter wheel cylinder for more braking force which offsets the extra leverage the big tyres get over the brakes.
Fueldup ·
Thanks matberry, so type 3 brakes on the rear and disc on the front ,or are drums ok up front ? So with a 1600 engine and a rib-3 gearbox with type 3 rear brakes this should make for a fun reliable baja that stops and goes and does everything right ? It's sounding good and now I have a bit of direction to follow, I had never really considered the fan speed to be so critical but I guess it's not unlike a water coolled engine with the water pump running to slow. Does the combie gearbox suffer from camber problems like the Beetles ?
What exactly are type 3 brakes anyway ?
Good stuff guys thanks heaps.
Fueldup ·
I think I got that last bit wrong about combie gearbox , it would be the suspension that causes the issues with the camber so a comie box will fit with beetle suspension I guess.
matberry ·
The kombi gearbox is assuming the rear suspension is IRS or CV 'double joint'. The earlier type of rear suspension, swing axle has the radical camber change and limited travel available.
The front end types have pro's and con's depending on what year car you get.
And yes to the disc brakes being a good start, type 3's are the beetle big brother in a wagon, fastback and nothback form, bigger, heavier, roomier VW.
Fueldup ·
OK thanks everyone for your input, is there anything else that you would consider to be vital information for someone just getting started ? How bigger budget does someone need to get into a Baja with a few mods..... and where are the best places to pick up parts to do some of the mentioned modifications ?
Just one other thing, what is the reliability of these 1600 engines like ?
matberry ·
One important thing for off road for me, is I prefer later bodies (68 and on) for the far safer burst proof door catch. If you prefer an early car, modify the doors and pillars to the later catch.
Baja Wes ·
Fueldup wrote:I have seen some crazy setups on here with Subaru power amongst other things but I can imagine that sort of thing would present a whole heap of problems especially with so much hp on tap, I kind of like the simplicity of the old air cooled vw so if I can find something clean and straight with a slightly larger engine I think I would be happy.
My V6 Baja has been running fine for the last 8 years, no issues with the gearbox other than a bit of gear whine at highway speeds (you probably wouldn't hear it if you had a noisy VW motor)
Fueldup ·
Baja Wes , I really like the look of your Baja and I can only imagine how well it goes you must have put a hell of alot of hours into it to get it to that standard. Great to hear all that power hasn't caused any dramas I had no idea they could handle that much horsepower.
I think i will be starting out with something pretty mild, but I guess there is no reason I couldn't have a crack at something a little different further down the track.
baghall ·
As far as budget is concernd. I spent $2500 on purchasing my baja, and am still spending money repairing and setting it up the way I want. It's one of those things where you keep "making improvements" so the budget you had planned on keeps changing. Though I should have been as smart as you in getting the advice first. It might have made it easier in the long run.
Fueldup ·
I know where you are coming from, I have been looking at VWs from $1500-7500 and trying to work out wether to buy something completely done and registered or to start of cheap and build it up, I know paying for a car already done will work out cheaper in the long run and easier too. I have been here before with other vehicles, problem is after reading all of the great advice from you guys I sorta want to build my own, which leads me to my next question.
What is the difference between a 61 model beetle and a 69, 1500 ? Does the later model have a better setup for a Baja eg suspension and brakes ? The 61 has a 1600 engine which I assume they didn't come out with.
Smiley ·
matberry wrote:modify the doors and pillars to the later catch.
I must do this 🤓
I spent $300 purchasing my Baja, but then did a full rebuild. And I did nothing that I have suggested above 😂 She's pretty well stock standard still. Lots of mods, not enough time or money. The other problem I have is the car is my daily so it can't be off the road for more than a weekend.
Smiley that is one hell of a build you sure did start from scratch and it looks like you had some challenging moments, great end result, you must love driving it knowing that all of your hard work has given the old girl a second wind.
Can you tell me if the 69 model will make a good Baja, good points and bad. ? How does it differ from the 61 model ? These are just a couple of models I have been eyeing off.
I have been looking through the forums but I still have not found much that answers that question but I will keep looking. I have worked out that the 69 has disc brakes on the front but I am unsure about the suspension front and rear.
Thanks.
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Smiley that is one hell of a build you sure did start from scratch and it looks like you had some challenging moments, great end result, you must love driving it knowing that all of your hard work has given the old girl a second wind.
Aww shucks man 😊 It really is along way from being anywhere near what I want it to be. Still very standard. Lots of work to be done.
Fueldup wrote:Can you tell me if the 69 model will make a good Baja, good points and bad. ? How does it differ from the 61 model ? These are just a couple of models I have been eyeing off.
I have been looking through the forums but I still have not found much that answers that question but I will keep looking. I have worked out that the 69 has disc brakes on the front but I am unsure about the suspension front and rear.
Thanks.
'61 Beetle, standard will have a 1200 single port engine, king and link pin front and swing axle rear suspension.
6V electrics. Single speed wipers. Drum brakes all round. Wide five stud pattern.
Whereas the '69 will have a 1500 or 1600 engine by now. Ball joint front end and swingaxle rear.
12V electrics. Disc brakes front, drums on rear. 4 stud pattern. The windows on the '69 are all larger, external fuel filler door. It also has additional safety features like the door latches and disc brakes mentioned above. As well as a collapsible steering column.
Ball joints will handle better on road, require less adjustment and less maintenance.
The "69 is essentially going to be a better car. It'll have 8 years of improvements and development up on the '61.
The only real difference from an offroaders standpoint is that the engine will be bigger, which is always better 😀
And the front suspension is a different type. Other than that they are the same type.
Now, as for front suspension from an offroaders view.
King and Link Point is a little bit stronger and more rugged. They were around for a lot more years than balljoint so they are more available. You can get more travel out of K+L than a balljoint, because the balljoints bind up and stop the arms moving.
Aftermarkets parts are far more available out of the likes of America for the King and Link pin, that's what most of the offroad race cars use and most sandrails.
BUT, Thing Spindles are available for balljoint front ends, they give you around 3" of lift with a bolt on mod. Things are a Balljoint based offroad car that was made for the American market, we didn't get them over here. Best to PM Mattberry for more info, he has a set on his beast.
You can also get a 3" lift spindle for the K+L, off a car called the Country Buggy. Was Australian designed and built in the 60s. But they are an incredibly rare car and the spindles are like chook's teeth.
It really depends what you're planning on using the car for. But I would probably recommend the later car as your better bet. You just have so much less work to do from your start point (converting to 12V disc brake conversions etc)
It'll be better to drive on the road and go just as far as 99% of Link Pin Baja's offroad, until one like this comes along and ruins your picnic http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=126314
Whoops, just gave you a thread you have to read 😂😂
Any more questions just throw them up, that's why the forum's here.
Smiley 😎
matberry ·
The other negative for ball joint is the lack of positive stops, stock this is built into the shock (well meant to, but not all shocks are created equal) but for off road it's best to build in better stops.
Fueldup ·
Thanks Smiley, that is exactly the info I was looking for now I am sorta starting to get a handle on things. Thanks for the other thread there is alot of reading in there I have only just scratched the surface I must go back later and go through the whole story.
I am really enjoying learning all of the ins and outs of the VWs and everyones help on here is making it a whole lot easier.
Mattberry, are the stops in the picture something that you have added ? Does this then protect the shocks from damage ?
When looking at beetles where is the most important place to check for rust and I suspect most of them will have some ? Is there a point when you should walk away if a vehicle is rusted in a particular area. Smiley that probably doesn't apply to you after seeing what you had to repair !
matberry ·
Yeap, those stops are added. Pic is from the net, not mine.
Rust....yep, walk away if there's any in the roof gutters, sills and heater channels is where you start looking. Any thing can be repaired...but it all takes time, so the cleaner car closest to what you want is by far the best/cheapest/easiest choice. Get a good body to work with and mod the mechanicals to what you want is often the best....for me anyway, as there aren't many cars set up the way I want ......
Fueldup ·
Yes matt it makes alot of sense to find a good straight relatively rust free car, most of the beetles I have been looking at have had 1500 engines, I was hoping for a 1600 but really upgrading this at a later date is far easier than having to do heaps of body work.
What can you tell me about the 1500 engine, how does it compare to the 1600 ?
Some beetles have been advertised as having lowered suspension, now obviously this is heading in the wrong direction for what I want so does it make it difficult to raise it up for offroad work and will it be exspensive to raise it again or is it no big deal ?
Thanks.
matberry ·
My car went from this
to this
Just swapped the front end from a narrowed lowered beam to a stock beam with 181 (Thing) fron stubs, cranked up the rear and away you go. I actually swapped pans to one I was preparing for the offroader as the car was swing axle and I wanted IRS, for me a must for any serious offroader, and so the pan swap was the easiest route. The basic swap was on the road again in one week (admitedly a big week).
Fueldup ·
Hey Matt, you know everytime you guys tell me something new about your cars I suddenly get a whole heap of new questions pop into my head, for you its common knowledge but for me I end up with the ''What The'' feeling and then I want to know.
This time its the IRS suspension which I thought would stand for independent rear suspension but I am probably wrong, is this the system that eliminates wheel camber ?
IRS comes from which VW ?
So you are saying that buying a car with lowered suspension isn't a problem judging by what you did to yours in one week and yer that must of been a hell of a week.
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Yes matt it makes alot of sense to find a good straight relatively rust free car, most of the beetles I have been looking at have had 1500 engines, I was hoping for a 1600 but really upgrading this at a later date is far easier than having to do heaps of body work.
What can you tell me about the 1500 engine, how does it compare to the 1600 ?
Some beetles have been advertised as having lowered suspension, now obviously this is heading in the wrong direction for what I want so does it make it difficult to raise it up for offroad work and will it be exspensive to raise it again or is it no big deal ?
Thanks.
1500s won't be too much different to a 1600. The heads will be singleport whereas the 1600 is twinport heads.
if the engine has ever been rebuilt in it's life there's a 995 percent chance that it's already a 1600. You can't buy new pistons and barrels for the 1500s they they are always rebuilt as a 1600 because it's a slip in mod.
Smiley 😎
matberry ·
Fueldup wrote:Hey Matt, you know everytime you guys tell me something new about your cars I suddenly get a whole heap of new questions pop into my head, for you its common knowledge but for me I end up with the ''What The'' feeling and then I want to know.
This time its the IRS suspension which I thought would stand for independent rear suspension but I am probably wrong, is this the system that eliminates wheel camber ?
IRS comes from which VW ?
So you are saying that buying a car with lowered suspension isn't a problem judging by what you did to yours in one week and yer that must of been a hell of a week.
Yes mate, you got it. IRS is prefered for offroad as more travel can be gained with less camber change than with swing axle. It's a bit of a running joke around here that both suspension types are in fact independant rear suspension or IRS. So to be correct, or to please Gerg Mackie, we have to call them swingaxle and double joint or cv/open drive shaft rear suspension....😂😂😂
So, our mate and fountain of baja information Smileybajaman has covered the different types in the first page pics. The last pic is the swingaxle. The joint at the transmission is one major limit as is unsafe wheel/camber issues if more suspension travel is desired.
Stock swingaxle will squeeze maybe 6" or travel, where as stock IRS...oops 'double joint' 6-7" is easy and 10 isn't too difficult and if there is no budget, 20+ is possible. All this using the old VW design suspension 🙂. 6" of suspension travel doesn't sound like much, but compare that to a 4wd, most would be lucky to have 4-5" stock, ok, similar to a VW, but they weigh twice as much as a Volksie... 🙂
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:This time its the IRS suspension which I thought would stand for independent rear suspension but I am probably wrong, is this the system that eliminates wheel camber ?
IRS comes from which VW ?
Ok. Lesson time once again.
There are two different types of rear suspension offered on the Beetles. Swing axle and Semi trailing rear arm suspension. And while these are both fully independent styles of suspension they are most commonly referred to as swingaxle and IRS respectively.
Here's some info on both types.
SWING AXLE
The most common type of suspension. It is used on all models of Beetle up until 1967. Then it was used on all the standard Beetles until 1975. A standard beetle is a non superbug (strut front end).
With a swingaxle you have less moving parts, less to go wrong and lower unsprung weight, BUT throughout the travel of the suspension you get a lot of camber change in the wheel. This can make handling........interesting......at times. Especially when the suspension is raised. They get incredibly twitchy and unpredictable to drive. But they are predictably unpredictable, "If I hit that bump going quickly in the dirt things will get hectic"
Here is a picture of the swing axle in my car. You will notice that the axles are a part of the suspension with this setup. They are what hold the wheels at the distance from the transaxle and absorb any side loads put onto the wheels.
Then you have the spring plate which runs from the axles forwards to the torsion bars in the rear of the car. The springplate holds the wheel in the fore/aft position.
And here's a diagram showing the camber change etc
IRS
Now onto the good stuff.
The later model suspension first come to Australia in the 1968 semi automatic Beetles, which were fully imported. Then it was on all of the superbugs. And lastly on the 1976 standrad Beetles. It offers very little camber change over the course of it's travel. With the potential to get some wild travel with mods.
Here's some pictures.
You will notice it has a secondary control arm, it's the diagonal one that goes from the wheel back toward the front of the transaxle. Because this suspension used CV joints no side loads can be transmitted through them. So the diagonal arm takes the side loads. The spring plates does it's job in exactly the same way.
IRS is better, plain and simple. Handling is better both on and off the road, you open yourself up to a wider range of gearboxes (like all the Kombi ones mentioned earlier), and it's a lot safer and more predictable to drive. Swingaxle is fine for a play car, or something you don't really want to spend any money on. Mine is a swinger but will be IRS as soon as I get around to it.
I've found that because the axles transmit side loads into the box I'm forever ripping rear gearbox mounts to pieces, something you don't have as much trouble with in IRS.
Any questions about anything I've said above don't hesitate to ask, I'm sure Matt will jump on soon and correct all my mistakes 😂😂
Smiley 😎
Smiley ·
matberry wrote:Yes mate, you got it. IRS is prefered for offroad as more travel can be gained with less camber change than with swing axle. It's a bit of a running joke around here that both suspension types are in fact independant rear suspension or IRS. So to be correct, or to please Gerg Mackie, we have to call them swingaxle and double joint or cv/open drive shaft rear suspension....😂😂😂
So, our mate and fountain of baja information Smileybajaman has covered the different types in the first page pics. The last pic is the swingaxle. The joint at the transmission is one major limit as is unsafe wheel/camber issues if more suspension travel is desired.
Stock swingaxle will squeeze maybe 6" or travel, where as stock IRS...oops 'double joint' 6-7" is easy and 10 isn't too difficult and if there is no budget, 20+ is possible. All this using the old VW design suspension 🙂. 6" of suspension travel doesn't sound like much, but compare that to a 4wd, most would be lucky to have 4-5" stock, ok, similar to a VW, but they weigh twice as much as a Volksie... 🙂
You were typing while I was!!
matberry wrote:All this using the old VW design suspension 🙂. 6" of suspension travel doesn't sound like much, but compare that to a 4wd, most would be lucky to have 4-5" stock, ok, similar to a VW, but they weigh twice as much as a Volksie... 🙂
Plus compared to a 4WD (shudder) a Beetle has less track and less wheelbase. So 6" of travel on it is far more in relation to 6" of travel on a 4WD.
Smiley 😎
matberry ·
Ahhh but I was quicker !!!!
Keep up Smileybajaman !!!😀😀😀
EDIT...but you got pics 🙁
Oh and no mistakes 🙂
Fueldup ·
Here I go again after I just typed a heap of stuff only to have it diappear.
Smiley the pics help alot and thanks to you and matberry I now have a good understanding of how the suspension works. Would the IRS bolt straight in where the swingaxle comes out of or is it a heap of work to make it fit ?
Now I also realise that I will need an IRS to be able to run the Kombi gearbox, and what a bugger that the superbugs had a great rear suspension and a not so great front, well thats what I think I have worked out please correct me if I am wrong.
Yes the list continues to grow and grow. One thing I have learnt from speaking to you guys is that the setup on these beetles is more advanced than many modern cars and probably nearly all 4wds, do you find they can really cover rough ground quick compared to a 4wd ? With so much suspension travel I would have thought so.
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Would the IRS bolt straight in where the swingaxle comes out of or is it a heap of work to make it fit ?
It's not a heap of work to make it fit if the body is off the pan and you are handy with a welder. Everything will bolt straight in except for the front diagonal arm pivots. If you compare the last picture of a swingaxle on the previous page to the pictures of the IRS on this page you will see the little pivot boxes that are missing. And if you look closely at the picture of my floorpan above you can see them in the corners, that's because the back half of my floorpan is Superbug.
Here's a quick thread on how to do the pivot boxes
You will have to make or borrow a jig the same as the one in this thread to hold the pivot boxes in the correct place in order to weld them. You can make a jig using the superbug floorpan you pull your IRS bits off.
Nils also does this in his build thread that I posted on the first page for you to read.
Fueldup wrote:Now I also realise that I will need an IRS to be able to run the Kombi gearbox, and what a bugger that the superbugs had a great rear suspension and a not so great front, well thats what I think I have worked out please correct me if I am wrong.
Yeah, the superbug's front suspension is not rugged or strong enough to be used offroad. The struts mount on to the body, and this can crack or flex. There's no way to raised the suspension easily. And the travel is limited. It is a fantastic for onroad use, and you'd probably get away with it in a stock height Baja that you only used on fire trails or the beach.
People commonly buy a wrecked one for the rear suspension pieces to convert to IRS. You need the diagonal arms, spring plates, torsion bars and brakes etc.
I have wrecked a superbug for this reason.
The other thing you can do is buy a non-super Semi auto and convert it to manual, cause they are all IRS. Or get a 1976 Beetle, this is the last year they were built in Australia and they and balljoint front end and IRS rear.
Fueldup wrote:One thing I have learnt from speaking to you guys is that the setup on these beetles is more advanced than many modern cars and probably nearly all 4wds, do you find they can really cover rough ground quick compared to a 4wd ? With so much suspension travel I would have thought so.
I wouldn't say that the suspension is more advanced. You're talking about 1930's technology here. It's very agricultural and not really much advanced from a tractor. Modern suspension is far far far better........onroad. The VW suspension is great offroad because it's very rugged, overengineered and can take a beating. Also, when the wheels hit a bump or hole the wheel moves back, up and away from the obstacle. This takes a lot of energy out of the blow. Whereas in a 4WD the suspension basically goes up and down with only a very small amount of rearward deflection given by the rubber bushes.
As far as driving fast, that depends a lot on your suspension set up, shocks, travel, etc. I wouldn't recommend driving super fast in a swingaxle. I've had the rear end of the car in mine overtake me on a dirt road a few months back. But generally they can go quite fast.
This has just reminded me of something else. If you haven't bought a copy of Baja Bugs and Buggies by Jeff Hibbard, do so immediately. While some of the information is quite dated, there's a lot of good tips and tricks in there all about offroad VWs.
OK Smiley now my head is starting to hurt, 66 beetle has an IRS rear and let me guess it has drum brake front....I have been hunting down 69s and thinking great it will have disc brakes up front but now the IRS is very appealing and I think a brake upgrade may be an easier option. I don't really want to have to wreck another car for parts if I can help it. Thanks heaps to you guys for advice or I would have gone off half cocked and bought the first thing I fell over thinking that all beetles were created equal.
Yer I may have gotten carried away with the suspension being better than many modern cars statement ,although it probably was better than many of its time but hey I still find it very interesting.
I will get myself a copy of Baja Bugs and Buggies.
Its perfectly normal to wake up in the middle of the night thinking about VWs isn't it .......I hope. All good fun.
DubCrazy ·
Fueldup wrote:Yes the list continues to grow and grow. One thing I have learnt from speaking to you guys is that the setup on these beetles is more advanced than many modern cars and probably nearly all 4wds, do you find they can really cover rough ground quick compared to a 4wd ? With so much suspension travel I would have thought so.
no worries at all, i had a 1600 kombi irs box in mine and it handled everything the local 4wd's could. i quite offen got up hill they couldnt cuz of the weight they carryed and on the mud flats i could scim across the top at speed while they sunk like stones..
Sure a serious 4wd will be better but ur everyday lifted patrols/hilux's etc etc are not going to show u a clean set of heels 🤪
on the topic of how good each suspension set up is the swinger can hold its own, myself and smily went out for a day of playing in vastly different Bajas, his a swinger with little lift and pretty much standard everything, mine nothing standard, body lifted,irs,subaru turbo, etc etc etc and he managed to do everything mine did apart from getting beached hey smiley 😂😂😂😂.. yes mine mite have done it easier but his was there the whole time ...
steff....................
beetleboyjeff ·
Its perfectly normal to wake up in the middle of the night thinking about VWs isn't it .......I hope. All good fun.
🙂 Welcome to our world.
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:OK Smiley now my head is starting to hurt, 66 beetle has an IRS rear and let me guess it has drum brake front....I have been hunting down 69s and thinking great it will have disc brakes up front but now the IRS is very appealing and I think a brake upgrade may be an easier option. I don't really want to have to wreck another car for parts if I can help it.
66 Beetle will not be IRS, unless someone has converted it. It'll be swinger standard with drums all round. IRS is Semi-autos, superbugs and 1976 model only.
The IRS is very appealing. There are also a number of shops that can do the conversion for you. You don't necessarily have to wreck a whole car for the IRS. If one is being parted out, or the body is completely rusted you can pick up the bits pretty easily.
I'm currently searching for another super pan to start doing my buggy on.
You should update your profile information to show your location. That way we car recommend VW shops and people nearby.
Fueldup wrote:Its perfectly normal to wake up in the middle of the night thinking about VWs isn't it .......I hope. All good fun.
I normally can't even get to sleep in the first place because of it..... 😀
Smiley 😎
Smiley ·
DubCrazy wrote:on the topic of how good each suspension set up is the swinger can hold its own, myself and smiley went out for a day of playing in vastly different Bajas, his a swinger with little lift and pretty much standard everything, mine nothing standard, body lifted,irs,subaru turbo, etc etc etc and he managed to do everything mine did apart from getting beached hey smiley 😂😂😂😂.. yes mine mite have done it easier but his was there the whole time ...
That's cause poor little Alyce is stock and has no ramp over!!!
And what she lacks in ability I make up for in determination and revs!!!
Smiley 😎
PS - Don't make me put this card on the table!
Redbackemu ·
Smiley how did you raise your rear swinger ? Do you have camber probs?
Fueldup ·
Great pics Smiley, looks like Alyce wanted a rest from your heavy right boot.
Steff I get what you are saying, looks like you can spend as much or as little as you like and still have a capable Baja.
I don't really have any more questions right now but give me a moment, what I do have is alot more knowledge and I am very thankful for that, just gotta sit back and keep my eyes peeled for something that grabs me and something I can improve on without spending a fortune, I have spent way to much on projects over the years and I hope I can streamline this one a bit.
Smiley ·
Redbackemu wrote:Smiley how did you raise your rear swinger ? Do you have camber probs?
Completely by accident. When I built the car I set the rear torsions to, what I thought, was stock. Turned out an inch or two above stock. I don't have any problems with camber or tyre wear. The camber is noticeable with the naked eye, but not excessive. It looks a little excessive in that last picture because I reversed in behind Steff's car to pull him out, reversing causes the rear of the car to raise slightly, much like reduction boxes cause it to raise while going forward.
And in the other two pictures the RHS is at droop because I'm hung up.
Smiley 😎
matberry ·
Smiley wrote:. It looks a little excessive in that last picture because I reversed in behind Steff's car to pull him out, reversing causes the rear of the car to raise slightly, much like reduction boxes cause it to raise while going forward.
Smiley 😎
Sorry Smiley, but if your rear ride height changes as you move the car (forward or back) you'll find it's the rear alignment way off. In your case, I'll put money on it, check your alignment after the car coming to a natural stop. You will find it is toe out excessively. You may find after resetting it, you car will handle heaps better and might have some of that awesome power back.
The toe out when going backwards is toe in towards the rear which when excessive drives the wheels towards the middle of the car which lifts the ride height. It works opposite too, excessive toe in will lift the car going forward and squat when going rearwards. Set it to zero or 1-2mm toe in AT RIDE HEIGHT.
Joel ·
Smiley wrote:People commonly buy a wrecked one for the rear suspension pieces to convert to IRS. You need the diagonal arms, spring plates, torsion bars and brakes etc.
I have wrecked a superbug for this reason.
Another slightly easier option is just get the IRS subframe from a late type3.
Unlike bugs they don't use chassis forks so the whole IRS subframe just unbolts out of the car.
As an added bonus is the bigger brakes and the wagons have bigger torsion bars than bugs which would be an advantage offroad.
I've got a set for mine they're noticeably bigger than stock bug 28mm thick over 24mm stock ones.
matberry ·
Joel wrote:I've got a set for mine they're noticeably bigger than stock bug 28mm thick over 24mm stock ones.
Mmmm 24mm type 3, 22mm stock type 1
but they are definately an upgrade well worth doing for most cars other than stock.
Joel ·
Knew it was something around that 😂
matberry ·
🙂👍
Smiley ·
matberry wrote:
Smiley wrote:. It looks a little excessive in that last picture because I reversed in behind Steff's car to pull him out, reversing causes the rear of the car to raise slightly, much like reduction boxes cause it to raise while going forward.
Smiley 😎
Sorry Smiley, but if your rear ride height changes as you move the car (forward or back) you'll find it's the rear alignment way off. In your case, I'll put money on it, check your alignment after the car coming to a natural stop. You will find it is toe out excessively. You may find after resetting it, you car will handle heaps better and might have some of that awesome power back.
The toe out when going backwards is toe in towards the rear which when excessive drives the wheels towards the middle of the car which lifts the ride height. It works opposite too, excessive toe in will lift the car going forward and squat when going rearwards. Set it to zero or 1-2mm toe in AT RIDE HEIGHT.
My rear wheels are set slightly toed in actually. Unless they've moved in the couple of months since I last checked.
Will check them again in the next few day's to make sure.
Smiley 😎
matberry ·
Smiley wrote:
matberry wrote:
Smiley wrote:. It looks a little excessive in that last picture because I reversed in behind Steff's car to pull him out, reversing causes the rear of the car to raise slightly, much like reduction boxes cause it to raise while going forward.
Smiley 😎
Sorry Smiley, but if your rear ride height changes as you move the car (forward or back) you'll find it's the rear alignment way off. In your case, I'll put money on it, check your alignment after the car coming to a natural stop. You will find it is toe out excessively. You may find after resetting it, you car will handle heaps better and might have some of that awesome power back.
The toe out when going backwards is toe in towards the rear which when excessive drives the wheels towards the middle of the car which lifts the ride height. It works opposite too, excessive toe in will lift the car going forward and squat when going rearwards. Set it to zero or 1-2mm toe in AT RIDE HEIGHT.
My rear wheels are set slightly toed in actually. Unless they've moved in the couple of months since I last checked.
Will check them again in the next few day's to make sure.
Smiley 😎
Mmmm
No front trans mount issues?
That is where any change forward and back will effect the alignment.
Smiley ·
matberry wrote:Mmmm
No front trans mount issues?
That is where any change forward and back will effect the alignment.
Doubt it. The standard front mount is in good nick and I have a swinger gearbox center strap kit from CVD.
I'll check it again next chance I get. Those pictures are from a trip we did 6 months ago in early November. I think I have replaced the rear mounts since then, but notice on the weekend that I've ripped one in half.....again. And I can feel the gearbox moving around a little.
The sooner I go IRS the better!!! 😂😂😂
Smiley 😎
baghall ·
OK, how do you set the toe in/out of the rear wheels as I will need to do this once the new gearbox is installed.
Sorry for the highjack Fueldup.
Smiley ·
baghall wrote:OK, how do you set the toe in/out of the rear wheels as I will need to do this once the new gearbox is installed.
Sorry for the highjack Fueldup.
On a swinger, with the car at ride height on it's wheels, with the suspension fully settled. measure the distance between the rims at the front of the wheel and at the back of the wheel. Front should be 1-2mm less than at the back. Make sure you measure on the rim and not the tyre, also make sure that where you measure isn't dented or it can throw out your measurements. I find it best to measure on the outside face of the rim where the bead seals on other side of this face.
If it's out undo the 3 bolts at your spring plate and knock the axle tube backwards or forwards to correct your measurement.
Smiley 😎
Fueldup ·
Hey Baghall, no worries mate I'm happy to read what you guys are posting simply because I am learning so much.
Any chance of getting a rough guide as to the cost of parts which have been mentioned to help me work out my cost for a baja plus 50%, always seem to have to add 50% to most things I do.
Parts such as IRS, Kombi gearbox, Disc brake conversion, and what a reco 1600 would be worth,I couldn't even try to guess because I have less than no idea, I probably don't need all of these things but every beetle is different they all need different things , oh and Smiley I know I may be a bad student or maybe just slow but are all auto bugs IRS even pre 70 models ?
This all will help because some cars seem cheap until you start piecing together everything you wish to add.
Thanks.
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Hey Baghall, no worries mate I'm happy to read what you guys are posting simply because I am learning so much.
Any chance of getting a rough guide as to the cost of parts which have been mentioned to help me work out my cost for a baja plus 50%, always seem to have to add 50% to most things I do.
Parts such as IRS, Kombi gearbox, Disc brake conversion, and what a reco 1600 would be worth,I couldn't even try to guess because I have less than no idea, I probably don't need all of these things but every beetle is different they all need different things , oh and Smiley I know I may be a bad student or maybe just slow but are all auto bugs IRS even pre 70 models ?
This all will help because some cars seem cheap until you start piecing together everything you wish to add.
Thanks.
All semi-autos were IRS from 1968 (this was the first year it was offered) onwards.
As for parts, I don't know.
IRS bits - Maybe a few hundred, plus you're want to replace all bushings and bearings. Pivot boxes are $135 from CVD. Plus you have to weld them on.
Kombi Box - Anywhere from $100 to $500. Plus you'll need a mounting kit.
Discs for a 4 stud and a 5 stud vary in prices, I think the last kit I priced for a wide 5 for mine was around $1300 from Vintage.
Engine can be anywhere from $300 up. Keep an eye on eBay.
Smiley 😎
Fueldup ·
Thanks Smiley, I know thats a rough guide and prices will vary I thought prices may have been higher. I will slap on my 50% just to be on the safe side.
I am looking on ebay, I spotted a fibreglass baja kit the other day for around $500.
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Thanks Smiley, I know thats a rough guide and prices will vary I thought prices may have been higher. I will slap on my 50% just to be on the safe side.
I am looking on ebay, I spotted a fibreglass baja kit the other day for around $500.
That's a good price for a kit that's new or in very good nick.
Smiley 😎
gizzo ·
great info smily on gearbox ratios
ive got a ea 81 suby powerd baja with a 71 type 3 irs and running 28 inch rears. rpm is 2800 at 100 kmh its not to bad on the road, but at 3000 rpm it seems to be the sweet spot for it . the five rib kombi sounds like the box i need ,can they be fitted in the beetle arse end or can i modify the box ive got. im a bit in the dark when it comes to vw gearbox combinations
baghall ·
baghall wrote:OK, how do you set the toe in/out of the rear wheels as I will need to do this once the new gearbox is installed.
Sorry for the highjack Fueldup.
Thanks Smiley, too easy.
Back to you fueldup!😂
Smiley ·
gizzo wrote:ive got a ea 81 suby powerd baja with a 71 type 3 irs and running 28 inch rears. rpm is 2800 at 100 kmh its not to bad on the road, but at 3000 rpm it seems to be the sweet spot for it . the five rib kombi sounds like the box i need ,can they be fitted in the beetle arse end or can i modify the box ive got. im a bit in the dark when it comes to vw gearbox combinations
If 3000RPM is the sweet spot and that where you want it to sit on the highway then that's cool. Are you going to stick with the 28" tyres?
I just punched your combination into my gear calculator and got -
3188 RPM at 100km/h with a 5-rib and 28" tyres.
3078 RPM at 100km/h with a 5-rib and 29" tyres.
2976 RPM at 100km/h with a 5-rib and 30" tyres.
And same as the previous post
2880 RPM at 100km/h with a 5-rib and 31" tyres.
If you want you car up at those REVs I would recommend running a 3-rib Kombi with 31" tyres, This gets your Revs at 2970 at 100km/h. BUT, compared to the 5-rib 1st, 2nd and 3rd are lower ratios in the 3-rib. This is better for offroading.
The Kombi Box can be fitted to the rear or a Beetle. A number of places offer kits, or you could build your own. Some require a bodylift, others don't. With the EA81 you'll also have to make sure that your adapter plate/flywheel and starter all fit and work properly. The 3-rib is the smallest IRS Kombi box so you're going to have less trouble with it.
You will also have to modify your rear stub axles or buy some that accept the Kombi CV joint.
And yes, you can modify your Type 3 transaxle. But this will require a full rebuild, this isn't cheap. But the plus side is you can have it rebuilt stronger and with whatever ratios you want.
Smiley 😎
Bone ·
Hi Smiley, the gear calculator would be correct if a 31'x10;5'x15' tyre was actually 31' high! Have just finished installing the 1600 3 rib bus box in my baja and the the revs at 100km is 3300rpm. I also have the ea81 subi which seems to love the 3000rpm, so 100kms is no problem at all.
matberry ·
Bone wrote:Hi Smiley, the gear calculator would be correct if a 31'x10;5'x15' tyre was actually 31' high! Have just finished installing the 1600 3 rib bus box in my baja and the the revs at 100km is 3300rpm. I also have the ea81 subi which seems to love the 3000rpm, so 100kms is no problem at all.
Yeah, to true Bone, I measured my 31's the other day....they were only 29". What gives !!!
Bone ·
Mine too Matt. Please tell me your a little closer to a baja beach run !
Smiley ·
Bone wrote:Hi Smiley, the gear calculator would be correct if a 31'x10;5'x15' tyre was actually 31' high! Have just finished installing the 1600 3 rib bus box in my baja and the the revs at 100km is 3300rpm. I also have the ea81 subi which seems to love the 3000rpm, so 100kms is no problem at all.
That means your tyre is closer to 28" diameter!
Maybe you'll have to buy some 33"s from the same company to get a 31".
It's a little bit annoying that a manufacturer can't build a tyre to the size they say it is, can't be that hard really? I haven't really gone to the trouble of measuring mine accurately yet. I suppose how much air you have in them will change your diameter too.
Smiley 😎
Fueldup ·
Hey guys, I have been looking around at beetle bits and pieces and everything else that starts with vw and I was wondering about Baja fibreglass kits, does one size fit all or do you need different kits for different models ? I just can't imagine that the bodys didn't change a bit over all of those years.
matberry ·
Believe it or not, the model of car doesn't matter for the baja kit (as long as it's not a super bug with strut front end, remember thier the ones not to build a baja from 😂) There are different style kits though.
baghall ·
Remember though that a bug eye kit may be hard to get registered due to head lights being too close together, unless they are not mounted in the nose. Wide eye kits generally have the head lights mounted in the guards.
Fueldup ·
Thanks Mat, yer I did find it a bit hard to believe and I am now well aware of the supers being a no go for a baja thanks to you guys, boy thats a long time in production for the same body with very little change.... Now I can keep shopping with confidence.
Fueldup ·
Is it OK to still use the bug eye kits if you mount the lights wider eg under the guards or on a bar and whats the big deal with the lights being close together anyway ?
Smiley ·
Fueldup wrote:Is it OK to still use the bug eye kits if you mount the lights wider eg under the guards or on a bar and whats the big deal with the lights being close together anyway ?
It's to do with the law about the distance between your front headlights. There is a measurement, but I have no idea how much it is. Most Bugeye fail, but there are some that are legal. It also depends what state you're in as different ones have different rules.
You could get away with having your headlights mount further apart on the front bar. Not sure if that would look very good though. I've also seen people running buyeye nose cone and bonnet with wide eye guards for 4 lights across the front, just put your spotlights in the middle with that setup.
Bugeye kits have a few advantages over the wide eye kits. They offer a better approach angle at the front of the car. They get the weight of the headlight off the guard which helps prevent cracking of the guard due to vibration. Also if the fibreglass is thin enough you can get headlight flicker as the flex back and forward. That being said If I had guards that thin I wouldn't put them on the car. Personally I prefer the look of the wide eye kit, and I have not had a single problem with cracking or headlight flicker. As long as you have nice thick guards and not some cheap shitty Baja kit you should have problems.
The Wide eye kits give you more room under the bonnet because the nose cone is bigger and you don't have headlight buckets poking in taking up room.
So at the end of the day all it really comes down your personal preference. What do you like best? Bugeye, wideeye or a hybrid of both?
Smiley 😎
Fueldup ·
Thanks again Smiley, I have got to give you ten points for detail. I really like the look of that red Baja I thought the bug eyes would look a bit weird but that one looks really tough, nice. Well I guess it really doesn't matter which one I get because I could make either one work depending on where the lights are put .
Baja Dan ·
Fueldup wrote:Thanks Smiley, I know thats a rough guide and prices will vary I thought prices may have been higher. I will slap on my 50% just to be on the safe side.
I am looking on ebay, I spotted a fibreglass baja kit the other day for around $500.
Hi, If it is the yellow kit on ebay that is always on there I would not buy it. I have one of those kits and would recommend you look around for something else. I does not come with a engine cover and the bonnet does not have hinge plates on it. The only thing I am going to use off the kit will most likely be the nose cone. If you are down the Sunshine coast way you can come and have a look at the kit to see what it is like.
Fueldup ·
Hi Baja Dan, I have seen that one on ebay but I have also seen some others which are second hand for around that money, thanks for the warning I will steer clear of it.
OberonViking ·
Awesome thread. It is a true wealth of baja info.
Someone should make it a sticky.
grinderman ·
Love the bajas. I've found with tyre diameter it is related to the size of rim its mounted on. A 31inch tyre will be 31inches in diameter if it is mounted on a 7inch wide rim but if you mount it on a 10inch rim it will be more like 29-30inches.
baghall ·
grinderman wrote:Love the bajas. I've found with tyre diameter it is related to the size of rim its mounted on. A 31inch tyre will be 31inches in diameter if it is mounted on a 7inch wide rim but if you mount it on a 10inch rim it will be more like 29-30inches.
How does this work if the correct tyre width is used on the rim?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can see it working in small amounts if say a narrow tyre is used on a ide rim and a wide tyre is used on a narrow rim, however, changes in inches seems a tad excessive.
grinderman ·
When you mount the tyre on a narrower rim it is being 'tucked' in more and this raises the sidewall in my experience.
baghall ·
I understand that grinderman but I find it hard to believe it would be in the vicinity of inches and there are restrictions as to the sizes of tyres allowed on rim sizes.