Has anyone had experience with the rear brake set-up as sold by Classic? It's all fitted and they've been bled at least 4 times but I can't get any pressure at the pedal and no movement at the brakes. There's no leakes and fluid is coming from the calipers but it's like the pistons are seized but they can't be as the handbrakes work. They are brand new but came with no information at all but someone must have a clue. Please help as I have a distraught son who thinks the world is at an end!! Also I may add the master cylinder is new and worked fine when there were drums at the back.
vwo60 ·
You can try a vacuum bleeder, i bought one and it works great, you can bleed the brakes with one person.
ancientbugger ·
But how would a vacuum bleeder affect the rear brakes any different when normal bleeding still has fluid coming from the rear calipers? Again the master cylinder, how would that make any difference? It's like I need more pressure (?) to the rear.
matberry ·
I believe the disc's need a residual pressure valve fitted, but it sounds like a bleeding problem too.
make sure your bleeder screws are at the highest point.
If not, swap the calipers to the other side, so they are.
dangerous ·
Also, some times once the master cylinder pistons travel in the area where they have not been in years,(like when bleeding),
they can damage the seals and not work like they were before.
vwo60 ·
Vacuum bleeder will remove all the air from the system were normal bleeding with the pedal might not, good point about the nipple position, residual valves came on some brum brake master cylinder.
matberry ·
Yeah, even with a vacuum bleeder, some trikes I work on, I have to remove the caliper and hold it high with a gradual gradient upwards towards the bleeder so all the air will be evacuated.
OZ Towdster ·
Also how much fluid are you getting comming out of the bleeders , ie is it a good squirt or a dribble as if it's just a dribble or not at least a decent squirt then chances are your flexible brake lines are stuffed and are blocking the fluid getting to the calipers at full pressure and hence giving you a soft peddle
ancientbugger ·
Thanks guys that gives me something to work with, Andrew all the flexible pipes are new as are the hard pipes plus all the calipers are new and the master cylinder. The fluid is squirting but the pedal is as soft as anything, the front brakes work, just the rears are not so the residual pressure valve may be my next port of call. I'm going to shoot out this morning and get some more fluid and I guess when my son gets home from whichever party he went to last night I'll be bleeding brakes !
Brian ·
forget the residual valves , thats not your problem.
maybe the new master is bypassing on 1 circit
more than likely needs bleeding, you may have to take the caliper off and hold the nipple up as high as possible the bleed.
1303Steve ·
Hi
I put a new m/c in L bug a few months ago, front circuit bled straight away, the rear circuit refused pass any fluid at all. I used my vacuum bleeder and it got a pedal straight away then.
I reckon the seals had lost tension against the bore.
Do you have the correct free play?
Steve
vwo60 ·
I have a vacuum bleeder if you get stuck.
ancientbugger ·
Thanks for the offer Shane but I've put something together pretty much the same as an Eezibleed where it's pressurised (surefire way to find any leaks!) but that didn't work, plenty of fluid from the back brakes so now I'm thinking along the lines of the master cylinder needs looking at even though it worked fine before the brake change my son may have got too eager and maybe pressed too hard when there was no fluid in the system and the pistons are stuck or at least the one that controls the rear, does that make sense to anyone other than me?
ancientbugger ·
Well we removed the m/c and there's hardly any pressure from the rear pipe outlet so I thought I'd sussed it BUT I had another dual circuit m/c and first thought about swapping the seals over but before I did I checked and found that that m/c did the same thing. It was all highly technical - holding my mouth to an outlet whilst pushing in the plunger! Are they supposed to put less pressure to the rear? I wouldn't think so but this is a bit of a coincidence, I do have an old single circuit m/c that I'm seriously thinking of digging out, cleaning up and using as this has started to drag on too long!
ancientbugger ·
Well I've been playing with these bloody brakes for so long now that all moisture has been sucked from my body! I can't get any pressure other than a slight bit at the end of the pedal travel. Fluid is squirting from all calipers - probably more from the front than at the back, I was going to put the old m/c back in as when I checked it was all in decent condition but when I was putting it in I discovered the inlets from the reservoir were a different size and I didn't have the old ones. So new m/c back in, pressurised the system, bled it all twice this morning and still nothing except that slight pressure at the end of the pedal travel. To me it still feels like it's a m/c problem where the piston for the rear is not sealing but on checking the seals all look good and it's a new cylinder, the other piston appears to work 'cos the pressure at the end of travel and if I get the front wheels off the ground and get my son to press the brake I can't spin them. I'm all prepared to set the bloody thing alight as I've spent my entire holiday so far sodding about with my sons car and done nothing to my own!😬
11CAB ·
Have you tried bleeding the master cylinder? Pressurize the system then crack the metal pipes at the master cylinder and see if you get any air out from there.
ancientbugger ·
I'm willing to give anything a try Graham although I can't seem to understand why that would give any different result as I'm getting fluid through the whole system. I'm pretty much convinced I must have a duff m/c either that or I've left the pads off the rear brakes (joking but that's what it feels like!)
vwo60 ·
I made the mistake in my younger days of purchasing a sherman rear disc brake kit, i had the same issues as the displacement of the rear caliper was greater that the wheek cylinder that it replaced, same syptoms as yours, would not bleed and give a good peddle, when i got it sort of happening i noticed it was blueing the front rotors and the rears were not working as the rotors still had the machine marks on them, i put it down to the master cylinder disign, when it works as the maker intended the piston for the rear brakes pushes the piston for the front brakes using the brake fluid under pressure and not any mechanical means inside the master cylinder, when you change the balance by introducing more displacement at the rear for what ever reason this no longer happens and the rear piston bottoms out on the front piston giving you a low peddle and poor braking and no ammount of bleeding will fix this, has anybody else have these brakes and what experence have you had with them , I notice that there has been no responses from people that have these fitted to there cars already, are they an approved conversion and have they been engineered to be legal when fitted to a vehicle, when i disigned and fabricated my four wheel disc brakes carefull calculations were made to determine what calipers could be used back and front to work with the standard master cylinder with any proporting valve fitted and still have a good peddle and the correct brake bias. In the end i took them of and replaced them with a set of type three drums.
beetleboyjeff ·
I have Sherman rear disc brake kits on both my bug and my trailer (it is built on a type 3 rear end), and both work very well. I have had the ones on the car for 7 years (130,000km) now, and no problems at all.
ancientbugger ·
Shane what you said is pretty much what I've just been told by a mate who popped 'round and I'm sure other people who have bought these brake kits must have had the same problem which makes me wonder why no one else has responded (surely we can't be the only ones who've bought them?).Is there a way to fix the situation other than junking the $600 rear brakes? i.e. another m/c .
Paulc1964au ·
try asking over at thesamba.com
Bizarre ·
Can I ask are these EMPI kits??
ancientbugger ·
Well I've just emailed George at Classic as he is earning money from these brake kits see what he has to say and eagerly await a response. I know he's not back till Tuesday but it feels like we only bought 'part' of a kit.
vwo60 ·
The rear brakes that i had used fiat calipers and had all of the same issues the you are having with yours, as far as i can see if this is the case you would need a different size bore on the rear to circuit to bring the displacement into line, just a thought, have you checked that the calipers are adjusted up, have you tried bleeding them with the hand brake on and how are the calipers adjusted, is it by the hand brake or reversing the car, maybe it does need a residual valves in the rear circuit. PS, a single circuit master cylinder would work and give you a hard peddle but what brake bias you got would be anybodies guess, also the legallty issues raises its head because you are required to have a dual circuit master cylinder with disc brakes.
Aussie Dubbin ·
Is it Camo70 or just Camo with the bright orange beetle unfinished fat chrome wheels? Show quality.
He has these brakes and remember him having an issue with his. I think the pad was not square with the disc. Give him a pm at least he has these brakes and he might have a bit of help...
I have mine all wrapped p ready to put on soon so i am watching with interest.
Cheers
vwo60 ·
Have these brake's been approved to use on the street.
Aussie Dubbin wrote:Is it Camo70 or just Camo with the bright orange beetle unfinished fat chrome wheels? Show quality.
He has these brakes and remember him having an issue with his. I think the pad was not square with the disc. Give him a pm at least he has these brakes and he might have a bit of help...
I have mine all wrapped p ready to put on soon so i am watching with interest.
Cheers
Haha it must be camo. Mines still factory martini olive with drums on the rear.
Aussie Dubbin ·
ThanksPaul thats the one... send him a PM
ancientbugger ·
Well, so my son can actually use his car we've now put the drums back on and the system pressured up perfectly so you were right Shane the capacity of the disc calipers is too much for the standard dual circuit m/c. BTW we had changed the rear from swing axle to double jointed and the disc conversion was an additional change at the same time. Still we want to put the discs on so I'll have to continue sorting out an answer to this problem.
cnfabo ·
what about if you try a late kombie m/c . i know glen torrens uses them for his big brake upgrade..this is also what i have installed with the big front brakes but still retaining T3 rear drums....bled straight away......
you have to cut the snout down on the m/c....
ancientbugger ·
That'll give me somethimg to look at cheers.Would that be for the non servo type?
Craig Torrens ·
vwo60 wrote:Have these brake's been approved to use on the street.
Haha........yeah I asked that some years ago re all the kits the VW shops sell from OS.......are they ADR approved, NUP !!
vwo60 ·
I thought this video might be educational,
it clearly shows why my engineer will not certify them, this shows the end resault of there poor quality http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=459443&highlight=empi+rear+disc+brakes
ask the seller if he has gone to the trouble of having them approved before you buy them, even the bracket is flimsy, i had to have a 12mm plate bracket to fit the front calipers to my car, i enquired with a famous vw parts and repair specialist on the north side of Brisbane, when questioned about these brakes he told me that in his opinion they did not need aproval as they were a direct replacement for the drum brakes, all disc brake conversion's need to approved.
ancientbugger ·
Interesting videos, it's funny how these things always come up AFTER the purchase🙁 Even so I have noticed that Classic have put in a warning on their website with one of their exhausts that there could problems fitting twin carbs with it so I'm wondering why there's no warning about the brakes not working when you fit one of their kits! Anyway at least my son can use his car now but I don't want to see him waste almost $600 so I'm still looking for a solution as to what master cylinder to possibly use.
vwo60 ·
Ask the person you bought the brakes of to give you the engineers report on the brakes that you purchased from him, no master cylnder change will fix the flex in the caliprers, you can see by the wear pattern that they are a problem, it will just resault in a spongy pedal.
ancientbugger ·
Cheers Shane, I have already emailed George at Classic but as yet I haven't heard a whisper from him.
Brian ·
vwo60 wrote:Ask the person you bought the brakes of to give you the engineers report on the brakes that you purchased from him, no master cylnder change will fix the flex in the caliprers, you can see by the wear pattern that they are a problem, it will just resault in a spongy pedal.
Its not up to the supplier to provide an engineers report !
Its buyer beware 😂
Remember how every one said how great all these cheap parts are🤪 even know those who sell no nothing about making them work or fit.
The engineers report is for the whole car not just the add on bits , so it has to be addressed by the owner of the vehicle owner. 🤪
vwo60 ·
In Queensland the engineer certifies individual modifications, IE, disc brake conversions, i have purchased a set of brakes the had been engineered and all i had to do is get it checked out by a engineer and attach the blue plate
Aussie Dubbin ·
Are we talking about the same problem here???
I thought the calipers fitter correctly and better than that pic...
Have you seen similar flex in your caliper?
WHat about a simple bore of the master cylinder for a larger ID diamater sleeve?
I remember speaking to a clutch and brake specialist and he had a lot of help. Have you got anyone close by that is a specialist?
I am thinking in will get my pads reset with a better brake pad compound, i might invest in getting the diamater enlarged if i need more response and then adjust to suit with in-line restricters...
Better yet why don't you put up some pics of what you are working with.
Cheers
airhead ·
if brake calipers are not meant to flex on operation for the intended use then they are faulty as they are incorrectly operating.
would that mean a refund. to me thats a refund as................... (they are faulty).😁
i dont think it should be buyer aware. if they fail out of the box, entitled to the above.
pull them off and return.
i am sure you would have a case.
i had a win against someone for an item failing, tell them to visit fair trading.
some good reading there❗
Bizarre ·
Most VW part I see have "for off road use only" on them
matberry ·
Even the poor quality $herman brake kits mentioned above are 'engineer approved'
Brian ·
my beetle was engineered with Sherman Fiat type rear brakes , no problem 😀
vwo60 ·
Totally depends on who engineered them, the guy i use will not pass them at all.
Aussie Dubbin ·
Any news or progress here?
ancientbugger ·
No, nothing. Classic haven't replied and still I'm wondering about what m/c would give us something at the pedal😵💫 As I mentioned earlier in the thread we've re-installed the original drums so at least my son can drive his car but there must be a solution that someone else has made as surely we can't be the only buyers of these brakes in Australia.
cnfabo ·
my big commy brakes and t3 drums with the late bus m/c are working great.....firm pedal....................
matberry ·
Barry, I have some 4psi residual pressure valves in stock if you want to try. I believe it's the 10psi that are recommended for disc's, but you could try one as an experiment. They are metric so a screw in fitment.
ancientbugger ·
Thanks very much for the offer Matt but Michael doesn't want to touch his brakes for a little while I think he's over it🙁
Menangler ·
I have a set of disc brakes on my '64 Ghia in wide 5, rears from Classic, and a set from Vintage on the front, I have a dual circuit Beetle master cylinder fitted, they bleed up fine with good pedal but not quiet as good as stock. Stopping is a lot better with the discs.
On my '69 beetle I have a full set of CB performance alloy hub wide 5 disc brakes, front and rears, the calipers are crap quality and flex especially the rears, these were a pain to bleed, couldn't get a good pedal, master was new, took off the calipers and pointed the bleader to the top, still no good, in frustration I fitted a used Bay Kombi master cylinder, they blead up fine with a nice high firm pedal, but now you need to apply a lot more pressure to the brake pedal when braking, not nice for a daily driver, it needs a booster to be perfect.
I know this is not much help for your problem, only thing I can think of that hasn't been suggested is bleed the rear brakes 1st.
Good luck
Dave
cnfabo ·
antientbugger, if you are going to the nationals take the brakes with u and slap them in georges face.he cant ignore u then.......
ancientbugger ·
Cheers Dave, I think the kombi m/c is the way I'm heading and cnfabo so far he's totally ignored my first email so I may just have to be a bloody nuisance and keep sending them until I get a reply!
vwsteve ·
i was seriously thinking about buying a set of these off george, thanks for the info, i wont be buying them now🥲
hellbugged ·
maybe get a deal on the bigger master from george, and if fixes the issue he can make it part of the package in the future?
Win win
Although hard to get contact with i think he is more than fair when dealing with these types of dramas with his customers
ancientbugger ·
Hey Hellbugged he answers quick enough when we order parts so I think it's only good customer relations to answer queries with the same speed. What is the sales spin- One happy customer tells four people whereas one unhappy customer tells nine! So going by that it is in his own interest to sort out the bad as well as the good.
hellbugged ·
yeah fair call, as long as your'e sure he got the email and is choosing not to respond. i seriously doubt he would go that way and from my dealings with him both in person and via phone, email etc, i would find it out of character for him to simply not give a s%$t
PM me your name or that of which the order was placed under and when and i will call him and make sure he is aware of your issues........i have to order a couple of things anyhow so it's no prob
if he is non responsive, ok, but if i can help to getting you and his reputation sorted that would also make me happy
ancientbugger ·
Well still no reply even to my 2nd email so I'm not happy at all as my son has so far wasted all that money so the best thing I can do is no longer use Classic Veedub and tell friends to do the same thing😠
Menangler ·
Don't give up on them yet, try bleeding them again, bleeder pointing up, even take the calipers off, you must still have air in them.
The ones I have in my Ghia are great, pedal is getting better and better the more I drive it.
cnfabo ·
did u try another m/c..i remember i bought a dual t1 m/c once and i could not at all bleed the rear brakes.changed back to the single m/c and it was fine....then bought another dual and all was good......
surely of all the years of vw mechanics has been going on someone would of had this problem before....hhhmmmm...im feeling u dude.....frustrating....
matberry ·
Well I had a stock system come this week with similar issues. Came to me after another shop could not get the brakes right, a stock type 3 disc/drum combo. The workshop before me had sleeved and rekitted the m/c and overhauled both front calipers. The car had only rear brakes operating with a dangerously low pedal. I thought ...easy, bleed, sus out, replace with a new Ate m/c and bleed, bleed, bleed.....we pressure bled, vacuum bled, manual bled, manual bled under vacuum, nothing we did could get the air out !!! The master seemed low in output fluid but the issue ended up being air trapped in a caliper, as the caliper o/haul was sus, I threw on a new pair of calipers and the pedal was awesome in about 4 pumps !!!! The caliper that had the trapped air was inspected and nothing unusual was found!!! No blockages or dirt of any kind!! Go figure !!!!
In 25 years of Volkswagen repairs I've not had this happen before?%*#???🤓
ancientbugger ·
We will have another attempt down the line when we have a bit more patience as Mick is now happy that at least he can use his car. My gripe now is with Classic not bothering with customer relations I suppose. Anyway the m/c Mick has on his car is a new one so he'll not be in too much of a rush to buy another BTW when we were bleeding them there was no issues with low output from the calipers it was, I think as you said, the caliper capacity was more than the m/c could handle but if that is the case then the kit is only 'part' of a kit. Again as you stated Matt and I've been playing with VWs for nearly 40 years (groan!) and not had this before.
matberry ·
I don't believe the problem is a mismatch of components, there are plenty of these kits worldwide without issues, I believe it has to be an air lock, most likely in a caliper.
Menangler ·
matberry wrote:I don't believe the problem is a mismatch of components, there are plenty of these kits worldwide without issues, I believe it has to be an air lock, most likely in a caliper.
Yep I agree Matt, my kit is fine and there are 100's of these kits out there.