Looking long term to upgrade my motor or replace with a new engine, here are the parameters i wish to achieve
1. Must blow away the following cars
Camo's 61
Mick's 56
Any local hoon in there modified commodore, etc
Seriously though I'm thinking about a 1916 with lots of low down grunt rather than a speed demon on the freeway.
so far the options i see are
1. New engine from CBB
2. A Stan Pobjoy build
3. Rebuilding my 1600TP
Am open to any other suggestions
barls ·
you left out one option.
2.4L t4 with dells. thats what im thinking of for my next one.
try having a chat to richard at vforce about the difference between t1 and t4 you would be surprised.
AUSSIE_MICK ·
Who's Stan pobje?
Paulc1964au ·
AUSSIE_MICK wrote:Who's Stan pobje?
i always do that lol thanks
SebastienPeek ·
How hard is it to fit a type 4 engine into a type 1?
Will a standard type 1 gearbox/suspension cope with something like a 2l type 4 engine? Do I have to chop away the engine bay or anything of the sort?
I've seen it happen all to often and am considering doing it myself when money permits.
Maybe my tax can go towards it! 😀
Sorry to hijack this thread, I'm curious as well :P
barls ·
bolts straight up to the stock late model box, no cutting required. ive been running the stock rear suspension for about 5 years now with no real problem, im about to upgrade to heavier torsion bars
does require the cooling system to be converted to upright though.
Ollie ·
48 IDA equipped 2276... 😎
SebastienPeek ·
Hmm, looks very doable.
Is there any threads on here that document the requirements/procedure of installing one or has no one actually documented it?
Ollie ·
I'm sure people have documented it, it's been done a few times!
They've got some good torquey grunt too!
SebastienPeek ·
It's been done plenty of times, I keep seeing them done and I might as well take the plunge too.
Gives me something to work towards anyway!
I'll have to do some searching around to see if I can find anything 🙂
Thanks Baris,
Will take a look at them all now and see what I'll need to save up for 🙂
cnfabo ·
i went for a spin in my mates 2.7 ltr t4.the other day..wow...wholy torque......it has 150 whp with low comp and only 44idfs .....very fun...third gear wheel spins....the heads are not welded.....
vvwbeetle ·
Hi guys
More than happy with the engine in my bug
2332 with 48's (150hp at wheels)
Great to drive at all speeds. Then has enough power to upset the w@nkers in their turbo or v8 powered cars. They get a shock when a 41 year old bug blows them away.
I can recommend you go and talk to the guys @ CCB. They were great with me and kept me informed all the time and sent pics and video's that I asked them to take for me.
More than happy to answer and questions you may have.
vassy66T1 ·
Stroker Type 1 definitely.
dubai ·
Who are CCB and do they have a web site and contacts?
Thanks
Paulc1964au ·
dubai wrote:Who are CCB and do they have a web site and contacts?
I guess the other option is getting a list of parts and i can purchase at my leisure then have my 1600 twin port built to a 1916?
hellbugged ·
Hardly worth using your existing engine parts with price and avIlavility of good quality new parts
Start from scratch
johny rotten ·
The fastest non turbo air cooled Beetle at Wakefield was a Type 1 Stroker of around 1995cc , Belongs to Troy Trager.
Troy beat all the type 4 engines including a 2.7 litre Aero guard equipped bug wih huge wheel , tyres and brakes.
A similar result was seen a Valla recently with the type 1 engines dominating all results.
Type 4 engines are too old, all the crankcases are stuffed, also the heads fall to pieces.
The 2litre cranks and porche rods are getting harder to re-use. 😎
matberry ·
hellbugged wrote:Hardly worth using your existing engine parts with price and avIlavility of good quality new parts
Start from scratch
x2
More often than not, very few major components will be useable from your current engine, so if your wanting a performance build, build from scratch, then you may as well use a stroker crank and build a 2.0+ .... and you get to keep driving your car while you plan, save, purchase and build the new engine.
Paulc1964au ·
matberry wrote:
hellbugged wrote:Hardly worth using your existing engine parts with price and avIlavility of good quality new parts
Start from scratch
x2
More often than not, very few major components will be useable from your current engine, so if your wanting a performance build, build from scratch, then you may as well use a stroker crank and build a 2.0+ .... and you get to keep driving your car while you plan, save, purchase and build the new engine.
Ok i'm not real bright can you explain what a stroker engine is please?
Paulc1964au ·
Keep in mind this is my weekend car and has a 1500 gearbox don't want a race car just something to surprise those at the lights lol
donn ·
Ok i'm not real bright can you explain what a stroker engine is please? [/quote]
Hmm, that means I'm not too bright also.
I asked the same question not too long ago, it is an engine with a different crank shaft giving the pistons a longer "stroke" (least I think that is what it is.)🤓
matberry ·
Your on to it Donn. 👍
Maybe I was thinking of another thread, thought a big engine was a possibility, no worries, even a stock stroke can give the locals a wake up.
barls ·
johny rotten wrote:The fastest non turbo air cooled Beetle at Wakefield was a Type 1 Stroker of around 1995cc , Belongs to Troy Trager.
Troy beat all the type 4 engines including a 2.7 litre Aero guard equipped bug wih huge wheel , tyres and brakes.
A similar result was seen a Valla recently with the type 1 engines dominating all results.
Type 4 engines are too old, all the crankcases are stuffed, also the heads fall to pieces.
The 2litre cranks and porche rods are getting harder to re-use. 😎
the same configuration in the yellow bug when it was in the previous car was a lot quicker. as they have only just put together the yellow one.
remember the green but that was 3 seconds slower than a gt3 around oran park? thats a t4 naturally aspirated
heres the link to it racing.
Paulc1964au ·
So I assume a stroker engine is really more for racing or drag racing rather than for a daily?
Craig Torrens ·
barls wrote:the same configuration in the yellow bug when it was in the previous car was a lot quicker. as they have only just put together the yellow one.
remember the green but that was 3 seconds slower than a gt3 around oran park? thats a t4 naturally aspirated
heres the link to it racing.
Dont get suckered into the "gt3" comparison crap......it was most likely driven by some old business man on a "porsche club day". 95% of the cars on those club days are being driven at about 60% of what they are capable of 😂.
vassy66T1 ·
Paulc1964au wrote:So I assume a stroker engine is really more for racing or drag racing rather than for a daily?
Absolutely not.
The longer stroke gives more torque (good for a daily driven car) and more cubic inches (engine capacity cc's) means 'easier' horsepower: i.e. you don't need to rev the engine as hard to produce the power as a smaller stroke.
Craig Torrens ·
Paulc1964au wrote:So I assume a stroker engine is really more for racing or drag racing rather than for a daily?
NO, truck loads are used as daily drivers.
SebastienPeek ·
Yes, but the major downfall of stroked engines are the fact that tinware and other bits have to be chopped away, right?
Paulc1964au ·
thanks guys i am learning a great deal so looks like a stroker is the way to go?
So are CBb, Pobjoy motors strokers?
Craig Torrens ·
Both can build longer stroke or "stroker" motors.👍
Paulc1964au ·
ok cool so what would be the spec of a typical stroker motor and can what size would i be able to run without heating issues etc
matberry ·
Any size can be built, just the bigger they get the more effort goes into building them. There are many different combinations that give improved performance, the final size can depend on many variables and there as many differing opinions out there as there are engine builders.
zayus ·
Hi Paul,
Here is a very simple description, that I can understand! 🙂
Pistons are attached to the crank.
The crank turns and the pistons move from side to side.
The stroke, is the distance the piston travels.
A stroker crank, increases the distance that the piston travels.
The increased stoke allows the engine to breathe in a greater amount of air and fuel.
More air & fuel means more power.
The advantage of the stroker crank, is that engine can consume a greater amount of air & fuel turn @ a slower RPM, EG: good for a daily driver.
A simple comparison is, an adult running alongside a child.
The adult is the stroker crank, the child is the standard crank.
Both run 50 metres.
The adult covers the distance in less steps, than the child, because their stride (stoke) is longer than the childs stride.
Paul, I can't build an engine, but I try to have a simple understanding of how hot-rodding an engine works 🙂
Oh yeah, simple diagrams help too... they will be in tomorrow's lesson!
donn ·
A simple comparison is, an adult running alongside a child.
The adult is the stroker crank, the child is the standard crank.
Both run 50 metres.
The adult covers the distance in less steps, than the child, because their stride (stoke) is longer than the childs stride.
Cool, but this adult runs outa puff quicker than the kid. 😂🙄
Paulc1964au ·
thanks guys this is a very helpful thread for all us novices
SebastienPeek ·
I'm with you Paul,
This thread is definitely full of information for everyone, not just novices 🙂
Paulc1964au ·
So would a 1916 stroker be the way to go? and then what cam, carbs , exhaust would you all recommend
Paulc1964au ·
oh with a budget of $6K without labour could I get a decent motor for that price?
Pumba ·
My new project will be running a stock 36hp,so who wants a race😂
vassy66T1 ·
Paulc1964au wrote:So would a 1916 stroker be the way to go? and then what cam, carbs , exhaust would you all recommend
A 1916cc is the standard 69mm stroke with 94mm pistons.
A stroker motor (longer stroke crank) is larger than 69mm, usually from 72mm upwards.
For everyday practicality the key is to get the performance without running the compression up high or using a bigger cam.
It is all in the combo. Find someone that has a good combo and find out what has gone into it. You can spend a lot of money in parts that don't really gel into a good package for an engine.
That would suck.
As I am sure I have said plenty of times the combo in my 2165cc is absolutely excellent. In a beetle you could go up in the cam to an engle 120 and still be happy I feel.
The 6K will be okay for parts but the assembly and machining would need to be an additional.
Paulc1964au ·
thanks Marcus that is great information. I want an engine that will idle fine and not too loud but when you put your foot down will have enough low down power to have some fun (within the speed limit of course) I will also be driving the wife around on weekends so cant have something too loud lol
Paulc1964au ·
What spec should i be building????
vvwbeetle ·
Hi Paul
More than happy to take you for a run in my car!
Now I have it. I need places to go and people to drive around with.
I am putting the car in storage for a few weeks while I get a new kitchen built.(I need the room in my garage to store items and I don't want dust getting on it or anything banging into it.)
So when I get it back more than happy to take you for a spin. Just let me know. Simon.
Paulc1964au ·
thanks for the offer and I can take some photos for you if you like
Smiley ·
I've just purchased a 2054 from Rod Penrose.
It's 94 bore and 74 stroke.
I was told that 74 is the largest stroke you can go to before the case starts to need clearancing.
Has a very mild Scat C20 cam (basically stock)
Will be going into my daily driver Baja, with a pair of Kadrons. I do at least 600km a week.
It's not going to be a super fast engine but it has around 108hp at the flywheel which is twice what I have at the moment. Will be very torquey and a nice daily driver engine.
With any luck I'll have it installed in a few weeks and I can let you know what it's like.
Smiley 🙂
Paulc1964au ·
Cool smiley am interested to see how you go i saw that engine down at Rods last week.
Oh rod is currently building me an engine check the thread to see updates 🙂
I wish Rod was just down the road from my place.
Let's just say that is definitely where all my money would be going!
beetleboyjeff ·
Hey Seb, you are closer to Rod than Smiley is - he is in Yeppoon in Queensland. Have a look on a map. :-)
Smiley ·
Paulc1964au wrote:Cool smiley am interested to see how you go i saw that engine down at Rods last week.
It looks real pretty. I can't wait to drive it 😍
beetleboyjeff wrote:Hey Seb, you are closer to Rod than Smiley is - he is in Yeppoon in Queensland. Have a look on a map. :-)
It's not that far! Barely 2 days drive!
Smiley 🙂
SebastienPeek ·
Ah, I am going to contact Stan about getting myself a mean 1916cc twin port, we'll see what happens!
I'd be up for a two day drive in Zelda any time though, something I would do in a heartbeat 🙂
🙂
beetleboyjeff ·
If you do, try and time it so you can go to the Sawtell winter break or Valla - they are both just down the road from Stan's.
Also, if you do, let us know - I would love to catch up with you - Stan is only about 2 hrs from my place.
SebastienPeek ·
Will do Jeff!
It's definitely a long drive, will put the current engine to her death bed I reckon.
But, it'll be worth it!
Paulc1964au ·
SebastienPeek wrote:Ah, I am going to contact Stan about getting myself a mean 1916cc twin port, we'll see what happens!
I'd be up for a two day drive in Zelda any time though, something I would do in a heartbeat 🙂
🙂
Let us know what he says and approx costs
SebastienPeek ·
Will do Paul,
I've got to figure out exactly what I want first though.
Seems the best way to achieve what I want is probably to have the same budget as yours.
It won't be a stroker, as there is no point. 69mm crank and that is the largest it'll go.
Basically, to make it a stable daily driver, but with enough up and go to scare the pants off of people at the lights.
Paulc1964au ·
SebastienPeek wrote:Will do Paul,
I've got to figure out exactly what I want first though.
Seems the best way to achieve what I want is probably to have the same budget as yours.
It won't be a stroker, as there is no point. 69mm crank and that is the largest it'll go.
Basically, to make it a stable daily driver, but with enough up and go to scare the pants off of people at the lights.
I think we are after the same specs be interesting what Stan suggests
SebastienPeek ·
Will definitely be interesting what Stan says,
would love to see the comparison between Stan and Rod.
Doubt it'll be very much, but even still...
I'm surprised I haven't seen any Gene Berg engines on here, anyone got one?
Paulc1964au ·
This
1956cc
76 CB crank
90.5 Mahle B pistons
CB 5.5" rods
DRD 40x35 heads 55cc, single heavy springs
CB 2241 cam (110 with less lift and more duration)
1.25 rockers on CB solid shafts
manton chromoly pushrods
1.5" CB merged header with single quiet pack
44 IDF webers, match ported manifolds, CSP linkage
Bosch 019 with points, German blue coil, German bosch wires, NGK plugs
German doghouse shroud and tin, full flowed, CB thin sump
Dynamic balance by CB
or this
The engine is a 1776cc with:
Completely balanced...
40mm IDF carbs
Comp. ratio of 8.3:1
Engle 110 cam
C/W crank 69mm
90.5 mahle pistons
New Doghouse shroud, tins and oil cooler Full flow/oil filter
Kennedy stage 1 p/p & Sach disc
Port & polished stock heads
Solid shaft rockers with 1.1:1 rockers, HD lifters & springs
BMD pulley system
1.5 Berg oil sump
26mm oil pump
AEM wideband sensor
1 1/2" ceramic coated header with s/s Phatboy muffler
009 dist.
LOWBUG ·
Paul, go with the 1776 you can build a really grunty engine this way that will last, also go to an engine builder/vw specialist mechanic that can instal and tune for you and warrant thier work, even I can throw an engine together
vassy66T1 ·
Either could be great little engines.
Whichever has been built by someone who knows what they're doing and cares about the result is the engine to buy.
Paulc1964au ·
LOWBUG wrote:Paul, go with the 1776 you can build a really grunty engine this way that will last, also go to an engine builder/vw specialist mechanic that can instal and tune for you and warrant thier work, even I can throw an engine together
Funny you should suggest the 1776 Adam from RAW said the same to me today. Adam and mick are probably who will build it for me when I eventually decide to replace mine.
So whats the difference between a 1776 and 1916? Does it mean the block is bored further therefore increasing the risk of cracking?
Will the 1776 be a more torque engine ?
LOWBUG ·
The only difference is piston size, case has to be bored regardless. 1776 for me is a personal choice, really reliable and hard to kill, the same could be said for the 1916. I would suggest spending money on heads, if they can' breath it dosn' matter how big the engine is, cam is important too.
Paulc1964au ·
So what is the difference between a 1776 and 1916 are there advantage and disadvantages?
scot70wagon ·
paul i have a 1916 in my squareback. i have been in strokers and really strong 1776. it will come down to personal choice. i,m always told the 1916 runs hotter although mine runs no hotter then my 1600 superbug. strokers versus big bore is an age old argument . out of 20 blokes standing around you will often have 20 different engine combos which are the BEST with 20 different reasons why. small cams or big cams? 36 idfs or 45 or 48 carbs? check who runs competitive engines at hill climbs, Two names come to mind, Ben durie with his 1904 strokers and stan with his 1916. Both behave differently and both are equally loved by their respective owners. Jump in some ones car with an engine done. If you need to see what a stan engine is like your more then welcome to take mine for a spin.
zayus ·
Hi Paul,
The difference between a 1776cc and a 1916cc, is the diameter of the piston.
A 1776 uses a piston with a diameter of 90.5 mm
The diameter of the piston in a 1916 is larger - 94 mm.
Both engines use the same size crank - 69mm.
If it is easier, a 1776 is 1.7 litre engine, and a 1916 is a 1.9 litre engine.
The difference and advantage - a 1916 is a bigger engine.
The 94 mm barrels (cylinder) are thicker and stronger than 90.5 mm barrels.
Stan's website, has a very easy to read tech article on building a hot 1916 VW engine.
The story is over 15 years old, but it contains plenty of images, and confirms the basics of a hot VW motor.
vassy66T1 ·
You might as well go the 1916cc as the cost difference will be nil or negligible.
I had a 1776 and it was a great motor too. So you won't be disappointed.
Spend money on heads is a good call. This is where the power/performance lies.
Paulc1964au ·
Thanks guys this has been such a good thread for myself in learning about engine selection. from what i can tell the difference between a 1776 and 1916 is piston size.
Will a 1776 run cooler? and what would be a good set of heads to get?
hellbugged ·
Yeah 1776's are great...really happy I went that way for what I do with the car
As far as heads and cam combos, it all has to relate to each other, no point having a big lift and duration cam if the porting and valve size won't flow the air to use it....vice verser etc etc....this is where the careful selection of matching parts gets tricky and somewhat more for experienced builders or WELL researched enthusiast
Then the spring selection, carb size, Venturi selection, jets, air correctors etc etc to optimize fuel delivery in the rpm range the cam and head performance combination "performs" in
Confused again lol ?
Paulc1964au ·
hellbugged wrote:Yeah 1776's are great...really happy I went that way for what I do with the car
As far as heads and cam combos, it all has to relate to each other, no point having a big lift and duration cam if the porting and valve size won't flow the air to use it....vice verser etc etc....this is where the careful selection of matching parts gets tricky and somewhat more for experienced builders or WELL researched enthusiast
Then the spring selection, carb size, Venturi selection, jets, air correctors etc etc to optimize fuel delivery in the rpm range the cam and head performance combination "performs" in
Confused again lol ?
Well it is starting to make sense I have spoken to two engine builders and both had recommended a 1776 but both said spend the money on a good set of heads.
What are a good set of heads?
Carb size i have secured some italian delortos ida 40
SebastienPeek ·
I'm still pretty keen on getting a 1776cc.
Think that'll be the maximum I'll go.
I don't want anything that can be used for dragging and so forth,
I am after an efficient engine but can still give people a fright at the lights.
That is what I see a 1776cc to be anyway.
Paulc1964au ·
SebastienPeek wrote:I'm still pretty keen on getting a 1776cc.
Think that'll be the maximum I'll go.
I don't want anything that can be used for dragging and so forth,
I am after an efficient engine but can still give people a fright at the lights.
That is what I see a 1776cc to be anyway.
looks like we are both after the same outcome I still have a lot of research to do but heading in the right direction
SebastienPeek ·
Me and you both Paul, lots of research to do before diving into it!
Going to talk to a couple of the VW mechanics around here and see what they recommend,
will post up here what they say some time next week.
Until then, I shall dream of my nice and new 1776cc when it comes 🙂
LOWBUG ·
Paulc1964au wrote:
hellbugged wrote:Yeah 1776's are great...really happy I went that way for what I do with the car
As far as heads and cam combos, it all has to relate to each other, no point having a big lift and duration cam if the porting and valve size won't flow the air to use it....vice verser etc etc....this is where the careful selection of matching parts gets tricky and somewhat more for experienced builders or WELL researched enthusiast
Then the spring selection, carb size, Venturi selection, jets, air correctors etc etc to optimize fuel delivery in the rpm range the cam and head performance combination "performs" in
Confused again lol ?
Well it is starting to make sense I have spoken to two engine builders and both had recommended a 1776 but both said spend the money on a good set of heads.
What are a good set of heads?
Carb size i have secured some italian delortos ida 40
Funny, I'm starting to hear things that have been said before
hellbugged ·
^^^
🙅.......oops
soooooo now i've read the thread i didn't open for a couple of days......can we agree to be in agreeance then? 😎
QuikBug ·
Good reading this post. After months of changing my mind many of times I have decided to go with a 1776 engine for my next project.
I have ordered a custom 1776 from CBB to be built for my 71 low light. I have decided to spend the extra and go efi rather than bigger capacity as the low light will eventually be my daily driver.
The main reason I choose CBB is I have had two motors from them for different projects in the past and never had a problem. Mike and Ryan have always had time for my sometimes stupid questions.
Only made the mistake once in trying to set on up myself, I will never go there again cost me twice as much as it should have.
Go the 1776 you will be happy !!
Paulc1964au ·
LOWBUG wrote:
Paulc1964au wrote:
hellbugged wrote:Yeah 1776's are great...really happy I went that way for what I do with the car
As far as heads and cam combos, it all has to relate to each other, no point having a big lift and duration cam if the porting and valve size won't flow the air to use it....vice verser etc etc....this is where the careful selection of matching parts gets tricky and somewhat more for experienced builders or WELL researched enthusiast
Then the spring selection, carb size, Venturi selection, jets, air correctors etc etc to optimize fuel delivery in the rpm range the cam and head performance combination "performs" in
Confused again lol ?
Well it is starting to make sense I have spoken to two engine builders and both had recommended a 1776 but both said spend the money on a good set of heads.
What are a good set of heads?
Carb size i have secured some italian delortos ida 40
Funny, I'm starting to hear things that have been said before
Chris,
you are so right you pointed me in that direction now i need to go into detail of what i should build based on a 1776
hellbugged ·
okay, i will have a go.....
budget build
lightened flywheel
1700pd kep plate, springless disc
counterweighted 69mm crank
new standard VW rods
90.5 pistons with ring gaps SET, berg circlip gudgeon retainers
helical cam gears
....all above balanced as set
new mag crankcase..8mm berg head studs....machined by Stan
26mm plugged/oringed pump, berg pressure relief cover, full flowed filter and cooler
engle 120 and matching lifter set
los panchito heads....... finished/cleaned chambers by hand and 3 angle valve job with at least one shimm under springs for chaffing.......dual springs and manifolds matched and doweled.....run in with only single spring
solid shaft vw rockers with swivel feet
berg push rods
7.5;1 compression with 1.5mm deck height
berg or pobjoy mini sump with welded pick up extension
009 dizzy 5800rpm limiter rotor with electronic ignition and bosch transformer electronic coil
magnacore plug wires from thundercords aus
1 1/2 berg heater box exhaust system (cause i'm cold right now)
34 or 35mm vents in those 40mm dells
berg linkage and breather box with vented rocker covers and air cleaner tops
mechanical fuel pump checked to 2.5psi
NOW...anyone can order the parts but a good builder will do/outsource/check all the extras i mentioned above to give it the 5HP here 3 hp there extra AND allow it to make RELIABLE power via proper tollerances and as such getting longevity
big budget?.....as per mine and make 100HP @ the wheels, proven!
you mentioned taking the missus for a spin....if you want to impress her and a friend in the car at the same time, step up to a 1916.....bigger capacity will carry the extra people better IMHO.
loads of great builders nearby you.....CBB for sure Mike is thorough, experienced and will go the extra mile to get YOUR engine to produce and live
Paulc1964au ·
QuikBug wrote:Good reading this post. After months of changing my mind many of times I have decided to go with a 1776 engine for my next project.
I have ordered a custom 1776 from CBB to be built for my 71 low light. I have decided to spend the extra and go efi rather than bigger capacity as the low light will eventually be my daily driver.
The main reason I choose CBB is I have had two motors from them for different projects in the past and never had a problem. Mike and Ryan have always had time for my sometimes stupid questions.
Only made the mistake once in trying to set on up myself, I will never go there again cost me twice as much as it should have.
Go the 1776 you will be happy !!
thanks for your input I'd be interested to see how you go, what budget do you have for this new engine? What are the specs of the CBB engine? New case? crank, pistons etc?
Paulc1964au ·
hellbugged wrote:okay, i will have a go.....
budget build
lightened flywheel
1700pd kep plate, springless disc
counterweighted 69mm crank
new standard VW rods
90.5 pistons with ring gaps SET, berg circlip gudgeon retainers
helical cam gears
....all above balanced as set
new mag crankcase..8mm berg head studs....machined by Stan
26mm plugged/oringed pump, berg pressure relief cover, full flowed filter and cooler
engle 120 and matching lifter set
los panchito heads....... finished/cleaned chambers by hand and 3 angle valve job with at least one shimm under springs for chaffing.......dual springs and manifolds matched and doweled.....run in with only single spring
solid shaft vw rockers with swivel feet
berg push rods
7.5;1 compression with 1.5mm deck height
berg or pobjoy mini sump with welded pick up extension
009 dizzy 5800rpm limiter rotor with electronic ignition and bosch transformer electronic coil
magnacore plug wires from thundercords aus
1 1/2 berg heater box exhaust system (cause i'm cold right now)
34 or 35mm vents in those 40mm dells
berg linkage and breather box with vented rocker covers and air cleaner tops
mechanical fuel pump checked to 2.5psi
NOW...anyone can order the parts but a good builder will do/outsource/check all the extras i mentioned above to give it the 5HP here 3 hp there extra AND allow it to make RELIABLE power via proper tollerances and as such getting longevity
big budget?.....as per mine and make 100HP @ the wheels, proven!
you mentioned taking the missus for a spin....if you want to impress her and a friend in the car at the same time, step up to a 1916.....bigger capacity will carry the extra people better IMHO.
loads of great builders nearby you.....CBB for sure Mike is thorough, experienced and will go the extra mile to get YOUR engine to produce and live
Thanks Damien thats a really good start I shudder about price though lol
LOWBUG ·
You have to work out what your boundries are ie: what do you want out of an engine and whats your budget. It can get out of hand really quick, this I know. We always want a little more. What ever you budget is, it will always cost more for what you want.
The big question is what you out of an engine, what type of driving your going to do, do you want economy or bastard like horse power, lots of torque, do you want smooth trouble free driving, have you thought about investing in EFI which much nicer that carbs and will find more available power and economy.
Alot of the combos seggested above may well suit the owners of them but not you, I can give you the specs on my engine and take you for a drive and impress you by scaring the shit out of you, but Ive gone to the extremes of turbo charging and EFI and a shit load on money over a period of time.
All the internal deatails aren't that important, what is, is finding and trusting your engine builder to build you an engine to do what you want it to do. You know who I use and would recomend, and I used to build my own engines.
Paulc1964au ·
thanks Chris really appreciate your advice i guess what i want is the following
1. Reliability is the main requirement therefore i will go for electronic ignition.
2. something that is nice but zippy
3. enough power just to raise the eyebrows of the guy sitting in his commodore or ford lol.
So to me a 1776 with delortos, electronic ignition, mild cam, good set of heads and a few finishing touches like powder coated tinware etc is what i'd like
SebastienPeek ·
What I find hilarious is that Paul and I both want the exact same thing, especially the ford and commodore remark 😉
We will find the power to destroy a V6.
EFI, 44IDAs, 110 Engle Cam (maybe even 120).
Should be very nice.
Paulc1964au ·
In terms of aesthetics here are a few examples.
Micks 56 is an absolute show piece but for me i'd never have the patience to keep it so shiny but it certainly is a benchmark
Camo's 61 has a 2300 engine but looks very clean and modern
I do like the looks of this engine from CBB
I would probably like a compromise between kev's and CBB
If you have a photo of your engine would love to see it posted here
LOWBUG ·
Important to get advice on a good head and cam combo, if don't breath it won't go. Ive had a couple of 1776's and one in particular use to go like a scolded cat, but that was over 20 years ago and there are better parts available now and cheaper, like CNC ported heads with matched manifolds an absolute must in my opinion.
vwkg ·
Can anyone outline rough costs for a turnkey 1916? (I know prices will vary hugely based on individual components)
Am looking for a reliable (and more powerful than my current) engine for a daily driven 56, just trying to do a bit of research. Planning to make some phone calls in the next few days as well.
Would like to know what to expect though.
Paulc1964au ·
From my research I think around $6K for a brand new engine
Joel ·
I was more than pleased with my 1776, it was just going to cost more than my entire subi conversion to fuel inject it which is only reason i'm not running it now.
Thing I dont like about 94s is the bore cuts into the case savers, not really an issue on a mild engine but most of mine seem to end up boosted and I can see that leading to problems.
zayus wrote:The 94 mm barrels (cylinder) are thicker and stronger than 90.5 mm barrels.
Who the hell told you that?
Paulc1964au ·
Yes i am leaning towards a 1776 based on that think i'll blow both Mick and Camos bugs away, for the first 200 metres anyway then i guess they will wave me goodbye lol
LOWBUG ·
Joel wrote:I was more than pleased with my 1776, it was just going to cost more than my entire subi conversion to fuel inject it which is only reason i'm not running it now.
Thing I dont like about 94s is the bore cuts into the case savers, not really an issue on a mild engine but most of mine seem to end up boosted and I can see that leading to problems.
zayus wrote:The 94 mm barrels (cylinder) are thicker and stronger than 90.5 mm barrels.
Who the hell told you that?
I've running 94's in a boosted engine for some years now and have really driven it hard on the drag strip, have seen no probs with head studs.
Joel ·
Let me rephrase....possible problems.
Theres alot of factors to consider like boost levels, head stud size etc.
I had problems with 8mm headstuds stretching when I boosted one of mine but i reckon they were cheap shit brazilian ones probably made of fencing wire, chromemoly studs fixed that, but if went 10mm with case savers in a 94mm bore half the case saver would dissapear.
Do many people here run motors imported from the US?
I've got one waiting to go in when the funds permit but I remember a while back all I herd were bad tales about importing them in just to see them sh*t themself.
Any good stories?
matberry ·
You get what you pay for, doesn't really matter what country it comes from.
Paulc1964au ·
Was down at Rod Penrose today and he let me take his 1916 for a spin WOW lots of grunt and great to drive
Ollie ·
Nice Paul, are you leaning to a similar combo now?
Paulc1964au ·
Ollie wrote:Nice Paul, are you leaning to a similar combo now?
No I think a 1916 maybe a little too much for
My needs aim leaning towards a 1776 it maybe a little more subtle in sound etc
Ollie ·
Yeah fair enough. Well you can still def build a strong 1776 for a decent budget that will certainly cater to your needs! Keep us informed!
scot70wagon ·
spend the extra and go 1916. once you have the extra you won,t go back.. it will only go as fast as you depress the accelerator anyway.as for noise simply run a dual inline muffler system. That way you have the power when you want to use it.
Paulc1964au ·
Have decided to be an informed buyer, just bought these two books from amazon
This way you get to see what goes into any engine. It doesn't matter what size you build (although the bigger it is the more it will cost is a pretty good rule of thumb 🙂) it's in the details that make an engine last. Countless checks and improvements is what it's all about, because the parts are not absolutly perfect out of the box, and they all have to work in conjunction with each other. Thats just the way it is.
The bigger the engine is, the more the compression ratio is increased, so as size increases, so do the tweaks required to get a performance package working properly.
A well built engine will not have head studs come loose or overheat or have valve train issues, or idle rough or be a pig to drive or get poor fuel economy........I could go on.
Paulc1964au ·
Thanks Matt I do value your opinion i think by reading up and gathering information i can make a well informed decision. In the end for me its about have a nice purring engine with good response, high end speed will never be a requirement, just enough grunt to raise a few eyebrows.
matberry ·
Even a 1600 can 'raise a few eyebrows' .... no problem.
Crazy Col had a 1600 running 14.8 (correct me if I'm wrong) in a stock beetle. And knowing him it would have mostly been secondhand parts.
IMO a new block, full flow oil system are highly recommended and new barrels, pistons and heads are generally required without looking too hard, then every engine needs carbs, exhaust, clutch, ignition, oils, filters, gaskets, and for me valve train is also a first requirement, so also throw in solid rocker shaft kit, swivel foot adjusters and the heads don't come with valve spring shims that also need to always be fitted. I get Crankshaft Engineering to balance and setup all bearing clearances on every engine too, also even new heads get a valve job. Then the cooling system is an area often overlooked that can make or break an engine, even the bodywork and engine vents need to come into it.
Once you have all the necessary stuff for a high mileage package, maybe a performance 1600 for starters, you can always upgrade later to a stroker for reasonable money.
hellbugged ·
Cool
Turbomania and the berg tech book are also great reading
Paulc1964au ·
matberry wrote:Even a 1600 can 'raise a few eyebrows' .... no problem.
Crazy Col had a 1600 running 14.8 (correct me if I'm wrong) in a stock beetle. And knowing him it would have mostly been secondhand parts.
IMO a new block, full flow oil system are highly recommended and new barrels, pistons and heads are generally required without looking too hard, then every engine needs carbs, exhaust, clutch, ignition, oils, filters, gaskets, and for me valve train is also a first requirement, so also throw in solid rocker shaft kit, swivel foot adjusters and the heads don't come with valve spring shims that also need to always be fitted. I get Crankshaft Engineering to balance and setup all bearing clearances on every engine too, also even new heads get a valve job. Then the cooling system is an area often overlooked that can make or break an engine, even the bodywork and engine vents need to come into it.
Once you have all the necessary stuff for a high mileage package, maybe a performance 1600 for starters, you can always upgrade later to a stroker for reasonable money.
Matt,
Why arent you in sydney lol, seriously though i will probably go for a new motor, received my first book yesterday so have a bit of reading to do
JonR356 ·
Just sent you a PM, I've got a fair few new, unused but good quality parts if you decide to go down the 1776 route - new VW case machined for 90.5 and full flow oil, Mahle 90.5 P&Cs, ported heads cut for 90/5, CB Performance Unitech rods , Engle 110 cam etc. Should help keep the cost down.
Paulc1964au ·
Jon,
Sent you a PM
Paulc1964au ·
For a good read Jeff Spencer has posted on my Streetwise Aircooled page on facebook it is definitely worth a read
Jeff sure did go out of his way to inform you Paul.
vassy66T1 ·
There is a whole bunch of stuff there that I flat out disagree with.
Twin carbs not practical for a daily?
Lag from dual carbs WOT????
Taking the dog house oil cooler out ????
Over 10,000rpm?? Now how many engines can take this for more than a minute? F1
Read widely and then ask someone who builds them in Oz today and has engines that have longevity.
JonR356 ·
Agreed, some absolutely nutty stuff on the info Jeff posted.
1835 is his favourite - unless he's on about the thick wall 92s with the same OD as 94s that's just crazy talk for a daily driver - the walls on 92s are way too thin, as per the following:
Engle cams are extremely inefficient - yep, that's why there are thousands of bugs running around with a 110 in there.
Apparently it's impossible to balance a stroker motor for more than 6,000 RPM too, whereas an 1835 is good for 10,000 RPM. Never heard that one before. He must be running some serious valve spring pressure, or maybe he's perfected a desmo valve train for air cooled VWs.
'Screw these guys with all their dual carbs' - rage much? You can include me in the group of people getting 'screwed'. I don't find mine too impractical. Or get too much 'throttle lag' last time I checked.
And he doesn't like using new cases. He'd rather use an old AS41 case than a new AS41 case.
I particularly like this:
"When I build these engines I watch the actual compression, and check it w/a tranny jig b4 we ever dress up the engine or put it into the car. What we’re shooting for here is compression in the 155-160 psi. range. I watch the actual compression rather than trying to calculate the CR of the engine, as I’ve not been very good or successful w/that. It’s the real world that really matters here. So I’m not sure what the actual CR is when I’m done"
Seems like a bit of a nutcase to me. But nice of him to take the time to post some info. At least he's modest:
"I do hope that U will regard the information that I have provided U with here in these discussions as some of the best that U will ever receive from anyone in the aircooled industry, as I have been most thorough in my description of things here to U, and it comes directly from my personal 30yrs. of experience at my Chicagoland high volume VW only shop".
Where's Chicagoland, I'm guessing it must be near Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch?
The real warning sign for me was that he reckons he builds over 350 engines a year, and a few years back he had his first ever engine failure, on an engine which had been built 20 years before? Doesn't stack up to me. If you build performance engines, you will have some failures. I call BS.
shokwave2 ·
I just replaced my single 34 pict carb with dual Kadrons (a big cheers to Rod Penrose) on my 1600 and IMO it's good enough as a daily driver. Along with a merged header and Phat Boy exhaust, this is so much fun to drive and gives me enough power get where i want, and to turn a few heads on the way.
Oh, and your new interior looks real sweet Paul 😉
Paulc1964au ·
thanks for your input guys yes I thought the same about some of his comments and thought it would invoke some discussion.
I am getting clarity on which way i will go more info soon 🙂
matberry ·
Thanks for posting that B/S JonR356, I don't do facebook so didn't get to see it. I don't think any sane person would take much notice.
polak ·
LOWBUG wrote:
Joel wrote:I was more than pleased with my 1776, it was just going to cost more than my entire subi conversion to fuel inject it which is only reason i'm not running it now.
Thing I dont like about 94s is the bore cuts into the case savers, not really an issue on a mild engine but most of mine seem to end up boosted and I can see that leading to problems.
zayus wrote:The 94 mm barrels (cylinder) are thicker and stronger than 90.5 mm barrels.
Who the hell told you that?
I've running 94's in a boosted engine for some years now and have really driven it hard on the drag strip, have seen no probs with head studs.
some of the comments are gold! great for a laugh ay chris
cnfabo ·
well i cant say i have purchased it but my next build which i have started getting parts to and have already is going to be a 1916cc for hillclimbs and supersprints etc.....
kroc ported street elims,44x37.5,getting done as we speak..
pobjoy crank
h beams
48 idfs
cb 2289
cb lightweight lifters
twin plugged
pobjoy sump
10.5-11.1comp
aircooled.net ali pushrods
1.4rockers....
hope that makes some people drool...😂
polak ·
it was 1015pm when i called paul after he told me to check out jeff's comments, no disrespect, but when paul answered his phone i was in hysterics and while writing this im still crying from laughing so hard, i only got to the 2nd paragraph as i couldnt take anymore, i will spread out the rest of the answer over the next few days, gotta give it to the bloke though, although its a bit out there, u gotta give him credit for the length of the reply, thats some solid effort!!! 😂
JonR356 wrote:Agreed, some absolutely nutty stuff on the info Jeff posted.
1835 is his favourite - unless he's on about the thick wall 92s with the same OD as 94s that's just crazy talk for a daily driver - the walls on 92s are way too thin, as per the following:
Engle cams are extremely inefficient - yep, that's why there are thousands of bugs running around with a 110 in there.
Apparently it's impossible to balance a stroker motor for more than 6,000 RPM too, whereas an 1835 is good for 10,000 RPM. Never heard that one before. He must be running some serious valve spring pressure, or maybe he's perfected a desmo valve train for air cooled VWs.
'Screw these guys with all their dual carbs' - rage much? You can include me in the group of people getting 'screwed'. I don't find mine too impractical. Or get too much 'throttle lag' last time I checked.
And he doesn't like using new cases. He'd rather use an old AS41 case than a new AS41 case.
I particularly like this:
"When I build these engines I watch the actual compression, and check it w/a tranny jig b4 we ever dress up the engine or put it into the car. What we’re shooting for here is compression in the 155-160 psi. range. I watch the actual compression rather than trying to calculate the CR of the engine, as I’ve not been very good or successful w/that. It’s the real world that really matters here. So I’m not sure what the actual CR is when I’m done"
Seems like a bit of a nutcase to me. But nice of him to take the time to post some info. At least he's modest:
"I do hope that U will regard the information that I have provided U with here in these discussions as some of the best that U will ever receive from anyone in the aircooled industry, as I have been most thorough in my description of things here to U, and it comes directly from my personal 30yrs. of experience at my Chicagoland high volume VW only shop".
Where's Chicagoland, I'm guessing it must be near Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch?
The real warning sign for me was that he reckons he builds over 350 engines a year, and a few years back he had his first ever engine failure, on an engine which had been built 20 years before? Doesn't stack up to me. If you build performance engines, you will have some failures. I call BS.
🤓🤪
JonR356 ·
I've just read it, and enjoyed it again. It gets better, like a good comedy film.
The style of it is quite interesting too, it reads a bit like one of those scam emails you get from Nigeria, saying someone's aunt has died and left 'em $50m and you can have 10% if you have them over for a cup of tea or something.
I reckon he's a nice bloke though, it's amazing he took the time to post all that stuff up.
Anyway, got to go. Off out to the garage to remove my dog house oil cooler.
Paulc1964au ·
JonR356 wrote:I've just read it, and enjoyed it again. It gets better, like a good comedy film.
The style of it is quite interesting too, it reads a bit like one of those scam emails you get from Nigeria, saying someone's aunt has died and left 'em $50m and you can have 10% if you have them over for a cup of tea or something.
I reckon he's a nice bloke though, it's amazing he took the time to post all that stuff up.
Anyway, got to go. Off out to the garage to remove my dog house oil cooler.
don't forget to remove the twin carbs as well, I will give you $50 since they dont work to well
vassy66T1 ·
There was so much that was nuts and off the wall that I couldn't even think about responding to any points.
t_tuffnut ·
I would double check some of the advice in that How to hot rod Vw engines book. I have the same one and read about the small increase in hp that blocking off the manifold preheat pipe at the exhaust affords - roughly 4hp according to the book.
I asked on here about it and people thought I was mad.
Turns out it was already blocked full of carbon and that the cause of my icing up problems.
So, take it all with a grain of salt.
By the way, does anyone want to buy a copy of How to hot rod a Vw engine? 😁
matberry ·
Colder air charge = more hp.
Manifold preheat is for a daily, purely for drivability and cold weather performance.
***There is nothing wrong with the book, just the interpretation.***
Brass Munky ·
I recently built a 1916 for my car... While we are still tinkering and waiting to put it on a dyno its more than fun enough for now... Theres a supercharger on the bench...
It was a build that got out of hand from a simple rebuild. Counter weighted crank, lightened flywheel, forged 94's, Los panchito Heads etc etc... But its a shi#load of fun...
Luckily All I had to pay for was parts... Machining cost me a Magnum of Coopers Sparkling, and assembly was food for me and the lads over the nights we did it.
LOWBUG ·
cnfabo wrote:well i cant say i have purchased it but my next build which i have started getting parts to and have already is going to be a 1916cc for hillclimbs and supersprints etc.....
kroc ported street elims,44x37.5,getting done as we speak..
pobjoy crank
h beams
48 idfs
cb 2289
cb lightweight lifters
twin plugged
pobjoy sump
10.5-11.1comp
aircooled.net ali pushrods
1.4rockers....
hope that makes some people drool...😂
Na not really
Super1302 ·
for me 😎 i have.
autolinea 2332cc
94 x 84
5.5 4340 I Beams
040 heads, (44 x 37)
fk 10 cam, advanced couple of degrees.
1.4 rockers
AA straight cuts.
48 ida's
Compufire DIS IX ignition
👍 and all i have done with it is run it in the driveway, no k's as yet. i am hanging out, once the weather pee's off and i get my ignition back in i will be right.
Paulc1964au ·
Paulc1964au wrote:Have decided to be an informed buyer, just bought these two books from amazon
Read both books back to back and I am convinced a 1776 is what suits me best the better of the books was the performance book.
Why a 1776 well from what i have read it will have the following features
1. higher torque lower in the power band so good at start
2. Engine will be reliable
3. less fuel consumption than a 1916
Other things I learnt were
good heads ported and polished, a engle 110 and delorto 40's make a good combination with a 11/2 inch exhaust.
I am sure there will be lots of arguments but for what i require this spec seems to suit my needs
Brass Munky ·
Why a 1776 well from what i have read it will have the following features
1. higher torque lower in the power band so good at start
2. Engine will be reliable
3. less fuel consumption than a 1916
Other things I learnt were
good heads ported and polished, a engle 110 and delorto 40's make a good combination with a 11/2 inch exhaust.
I am sure there will be lots of arguments but for what i require this spec seems to suit my needs
Having no experience with a 1776, I can't comment, what I can tell you is the 1916 in my car is an absolute torque monster. The other engine we built, a 2000cc odd, is slightly quicker in the top end, but I'll give it a helluva run all the way there!
At the end of the day, only you know what you want, and only you can decide the best way to get it from the engine. The only advice I can give you is... DO IT THE PROPERLY THE FIRST TIME.
Buy the best parts you can afford, If a new part is available for something you might reuse at very little cost, do it, you know the spiel... Don't do things on the cheap!
Paulc1964au ·
Brass Munky wrote:
Why a 1776 well from what i have read it will have the following features
1. higher torque lower in the power band so good at start
2. Engine will be reliable
3. less fuel consumption than a 1916
Other things I learnt were
good heads ported and polished, a engle 110 and delorto 40's make a good combination with a 11/2 inch exhaust.
I am sure there will be lots of arguments but for what i require this spec seems to suit my needs
Having no experience with a 1776, I can't comment, what I can tell you is the 1916 in my car is an absolute torque monster. The other engine we built, a 2000cc odd, is slightly quicker in the top end, but I'll give it a helluva run all the way there!
At the end of the day, only you know what you want, and only you can decide the best way to get it from the engine. The only advice I can give you is... DO IT THE PROPERLY THE FIRST TIME.
Buy the best parts you can afford, If a new part is available for something you might reuse at very little cost, do it, you know the spiel... Don't do things on the cheap!
I agree nothing off the current engine will be used, all new going into this build
Paulc1964au ·
bought this from amazon today
matberry ·
That's a great book, the blue section is really detailed and gives a pretty good description of the checks required for a good build.
Paulc1964au ·
thinking about one of these distributors
Comes with these standard features:
- 21 x 21 Fully programmable spark table
- Tune as you drive technology
- Built-in Data logging
- Built-in programmable Two-Step Rev Limiter
- Built in programmable High RPM Rev Limiter
- Built-in 2.5 Bar MAP Sensor
- Works on Normally Aspirated and Forced Induction Engines
- Fully adjustable RPM and load boundaries.
- Live Online Software Support (Internet Connection Needed)
- Precision CNC housing, Black Anodized Finish
- Roller Bearing shaft support for exact timing accuracy
- Each MS-Digital Distributor is shipped with software, installation instructions, communication cable, fittings and vacuum plates for easy installation.
cnfabo ·
spend the money on something else dude...just a basic one like cb's magnaspark kit will be suffice......yeah its cheaper then a full msd set up but you don't need it if you are not racing....
Paulc1964au ·
ok just an update hope to get the motor built in the new year. What exhaust should i get for my 1776?
A good friend recently had a 1916 installed with a python exhaust however the car is way to loud.
I want the car to be relatively quiet so what do you recommend for a good exhaust that is quiet yet still provides performance?
