Hi All,
Time has come to face fact and go the cage for my car.
Due to a 54 never having belt and me not wanting to drill holes in the pillars, this meaning I will have to run harnesses. Running harnesses eliminates a back seat so if this is the way I might as well go cage. I am trying to get a full cage minus side bars road registered but finding it hard. Mainly because of the under dash bar that is above your knees.
I am looking for opinions of 1 - going for a half cage.
2 - pictures of full cages, especially if anyone have run the above knee bar up higher so it has no influence on your knees.
Thanks
Heath
hellbugged ·
try the VWMA drag rat thread
Governor ·
How about doing internal spreader plates inside the B pillar, that way you dont see then from the outside.
All you have is a threaded hole to screw the seatbelt into?
You keep it stock looking inside and have a back seat?
Turbo54 ·
I think with around the 300hp the car will twist and the cage is to stop this, as well as safety and to mount seat belts.
yes I could do that and yes, it is not hard, but with the tyre combo i am running I doubt I would have anyone in the back seat anyway.
Thanks
Heath
Sides ·
Hmmm... well opinion on the half cage can give you straight away... DON'T DO IT !!!
🙅
If you have a half cage, no matter how good/strong/neat/whatever it is you will not meet CAMS regs. This is because CAMS has this little catch-all that if you run a cage, it has to meet specs EVEN IF NOT REQUIRED FOR THAT EVENT. So basically you'd not even be able to do the odd sprint at somewhere like Wakefield, hillclimbs, motorkhana's or basically anything run under CAMS. You might be able to talk your way through, but do you want to rely on that ???
Getting a full cage including dash bar registered is do-able no matter what anyone tells you... after all rally cars have to be registered by definition.
Mine for example is both log-booked with CAMS and blue-plated with Queensland Transport.
The dash bar sits quite high, and is actually in front of the dash rather than under it... so much that it stops the ash tray from being opened when the crash-padding is on. Will try and remember to get some pics tonite... run 'em by your engineer and see if he'd sign off.
Turbo54 ·
Thanks Sides, would love to see some pics. A full cage is what I wanted to do but told no. Thanks for the advice.
Heath
too cranky ·
Turbo 54 If your planning on Drag racing i wouldnt be worried about CAMS. Check out the regs from ANDRA.
nbturbo ·
Talk to Leon Walker at Walker Chassis at Inglewood in the hills.He has the templates to bend for early Beetles.He was really helpful to me.
Governor ·
Do you mean Lance Walker?
He is very good one of the best around.
Governor ·
I just remembered I am sure Lance is on holiday up North at the moment but he will be able to assist you or let you know what you can and can't get away with when he gets back.
He does most of the decent race and drag cars in Adelaide, from roll bars to full chassis.
nbturbo ·
Yeah brain fade-meant Lance.He did all my stuff and was really good for info.
Aussie Dubbin ·
Thats good advice cheers Sides, pics would be great, how much do you think it would cost for a whole cage and engineering? Is $1200 a reasonable place to assume?
Cheers
Good topic Turbo54
JVLRacing ·
cage design....i would be lookin at every avenue for saftey ,strength etc....
$1200 cage sounds cheap to me, 🙅
Do it thru Andra regs mate
Sides ·
Sorry, haven't forgotten - just not had a chance to grab pics as yet - hopefully tonight.
CAMS v Andra... I don't know how comparable their specs are, but I know CAMS will exclude you from events if your cage doesn't meet specs. No half cages being the most obvious.
Do Andra have their specs/requirements published anywhere ???
I wouldn't have thought $1200 would get you a cage, but hey - I could be wrong.
Custom built and welded in will be a lot more exxy than a bolt in kit from Bond or someone like that.
JVLRacing ·
Sides wrote:Sorry, haven't forgotten - just not had a chance to grab pics as yet - hopefully tonight.
CAMS v Andra... I don't know how comparable their specs are, but I know CAMS will exclude you from events if your cage doesn't meet specs. No half cages being the most obvious.
Do Andra have their specs/requirements published anywhere ???
I wouldn't have thought $1200 would get you a cage, but hey - I could be wrong.
Custom built and welded in will be a lot more exxy than a bolt in kit from Bond or someone like that.
with cams cages must also have the registered cage engineer builder code on too.....
too cranky ·
The ANDRA regs on cage design and specs in there rule book. If you are Drag racing this vehicle (since the post is in the Drag Racing section) then ANDRA regs are what you will need to follow. If you are planning on circuit racing the you will need to look at CAMS and ANDRA and work to the higher specs.
Saying that your cage meets CAMS specs wont be acceptable by ANDRA if it doesnt meet there standards and vice versa.
westi ·
hey boy's./
cam's cage will be fine for drag racing as the spec's for andra are lower than cam's.
but it depend's on who builds it in the first place,they may f--k up if they don't know there shit.
1200 for a cage is cheap.and proberly not going to be done properly.
our starting price is 2000.
it depend's on how many bars are to be used and what the car will be used for.
as for street rego.get it in writtng that the engineer will pass it before you go ahead,and even then if it isn't tucked up in to the body to there liking they can still tell you to go f--k yourself.
i deal with these questions every day.
as for rally cars having redgo,it is a special redgo.not the same as full street redgo.targa cars are the same depending on the classes that they race.
iall i can say is do your homework before you start.
westi ·
i am andra and cam's approved.
JVLRacing ·
westi wrote:i am andra and cam's approved.
Just a question for u westi, as a approved cams andra cage builder do u tag ur cages?
westi ·
nah just fill in a form
Sides ·
Okie dokie - cage pics as requested.
Meets Queensland Transport requirements, log booked with CAMS and also been OKd by Andra scruits (tho admittedly not log booked with them)
You can go a lot more hardcore than this of course, and could get away with less also... I didn't see the point in scrimping on safety.
Anyways...
Dash bar clearance, with me in normal sitting position and feet on the pedals. It's actually impossible for my knee or shin to touch the dash bar... I'd have to come about 8 inches forward in my seat, or put my foot up through the firewall into the luggage compartment
Padding means can't open ashtray.
Padding removed, can see how close to the dash the bar is.
Another knee clearance pic (padding removed obviously)
Junction of front hoop and door bar.
Diagonal roof brace (padding not strictly necessary)
Two cross braces in main hoop. The netting is for carrying helmets etc. when doing transit stages on a tarmac rally.
Rear bracing of main hoop and harness bar (bottom rear edge of the netting, with the passenger side harness attached)
Manufacturer/installer tag on the main hoop by the driver's side B pillar. Pretty sure a permanently attached plate like this is a CAMS requirement now.
JVLRacing ·
yep....installer tags,....cams reccommodations 😎
too cranky ·
Just watch the kind of padding used on your cage for Drag racing as the new standard is for the SFI Approved padding which doesn't come cheap
westi ·
cam will accept a stat deck saying what materials are used.it's a paper work thing.not a biggy.it's more to stop your do -it yourself junkies doing cages with no idea.
yeh tags are great,it look's alittle nicer to alittle more official.
i don't like the hand ingraved ones laser look's much nicer.
westi ·
cam's are alway's changing there rules and vw are abit of a grey area due to mount tags.with some of the mount's in sides's car they wouldn't make the andra boy's to happy,but there is nothing wrong with the way it has been done it's just a chassis thing.there are no real chassis rails or main support's.
but when getting a cage done wether do it your self or through a pro.you should always get an scruteneer to have a look to see what there happy with.before finall weld has been done.
LIFE IN THE LOW LANE ·
Troy took Dangerous' old blown car to a Andra tech inspector to find out what he deemed necessary when rebuilding the front of the car and also to check the rest of the car out as the rules change all the time. Not a big pain to do but well worth the time and effort now cause later on once you have built the car it's a lot harder to change. He had to change a few bars nothing major and the design for the front he was more than happy with.
T-34 ·
Heath, feel free to pop round and have a look at mine, I did things a little differently from the norm - the cage is mounted to the floor and not the body so no body mods. This does narrow the cage a little but allows body to be completely lifted off.
I did have to add some additional bracing along the floor as this was recommended at a pre-event scrutineering check. My cage is built to DLRA / SCTA specs (land speed racing) but should also meet CAMS and ANDRA specs for tube size / wall thickness / bend radius / deformation allowances / single piece main hoop / fully welded etc.
$1200 is less than half what I paid for mine, but I think I paid a little over the top, that said, I would still expect to pay $2k+
Some pics...
The cross bar is not particularly low, and I don't think is anywhere near my legs - it also has a lot to do with what seat you are running and how low you mount it. I'm running a low back cookey seat which you can just about see in next pic. Might change this out to a highback, but undecided until I mount it in properly and get the body back on.
AFAIK for road registration with a cage fitted, body parts have to be a minimum distance from the cage structure, I think this is 150mm. This is easily the case with the cross bar, but I guess this also depends on how tall you are - Biggest issue with respect to the minimum clearance rule is usually the main hoop, this is the issue my mate has been having (not a VW but Valiant S type).
Give me a shout if you want to pop down, I'll be out in the garage at least one day over the weekend cranking on getting the Type 34 finished.
Mick.
0428428864.
Turbo54 ·
Thanks Mick, long time no hear. Still have your old business card in my wallet I got at the VW show.
I have talked to engineer and deceided not to go down this route. Going to leave it clean and not run into 10's.
I still would love to come and check it out. I will call. What year beetle are you doing and how the turbo KG going.
Thanks
heath
nbturbo ·
2 questions Mick-who's Porsche fan shroud is that and what is the rail frame in the background going to have in it?
venFun10 ·
is the roll cage the only reason you have not run tens?
Turbo54 ·
VenFun, my car has potential to run into the 10's. My goal is low 11's.
As I said in my first post "Due to a 54 never having belt and me not wanting to drill holes in the pillars, this meaning I will have to run harnesses. Running harnesses eliminates a back seat so if this is the way I might as well go cage. I am trying to get a full cage minus side bars road registered but finding it hard. Mainly because of the under dash bar that is above your knees."
T54
venFun10 ·
hey mate
dont limit your car because a cage
tens in the quarter is fast for a street car and not many do it
even when i lived in the states my mates had very fast street cars but not many do the tens
even with similar setups the times were different
you need to run it first before assuming
or have you? im not sure of your car so i apologize if you have
T-34 ·
Heath, the Type 4 turbo is now going into the '56 I bought. I decided to put something less wild in the Type 34 and use the engine for a race car instead. The original plan was to build a drag car, but the lack of anywhere in SA to run it spurned me to build a salt flat racer instead. An engine like that deserves to be used properly. 😀
The '56 is also fitted with the 915 box from the Ghia, so should be good for 150 ish. Well at any rate, that's my goal - to break 150, but I'm guessing it will take a few attempts to get there.
As far as the Type 34 goes, I'm currently building a normally aspirated 2110 for it. I've converted it to IRS and retained the Porsche brakes, but junked my custom rear 944 set up in favor of VW arms with 944 backing plates. The 915 has been replaced with a stock box which will hopefully make way for a berg 5 when I've saved up some more pennies. Eventually I intend to megasquirt it, but the main focus at the moment is simply getting it finished and on the road. It's actually not too far off being done. I've got a few weeks off coming up so I'm aiming at getting it polished off. The worst thing is that after starting the build nearly 20 years ago, a lot of the stuff that's already been done now needs redoing 🙁 Once the Type 34 is out of the way the focus will switch to getting the oval finished for speedweek next March.
nbturbo wrote:2 questions Mick-who's Porsche fan shroud is that and what is the rail frame in the background going to have in it?
The shroud was supplied by Stateside Tuning in the UK. It requires the top of the case to be machined to fit - The breather tower is machined with a 560mm radius to allow the fan to sit directly on the case. The benefit is that the fan sits a lot lower than the bolt on style setups.
The 'rail' in the background is just the pan for the '56 oval
Mick.
T-34 ·
You might want to rethink your decision about the cage.
