I understand that in a standard system you have a coil and the distributor. In a MSD system you still have the coil and distributor, but you also have the additional box (i.e. the 6AL seems to be popular). What exactly is the function of the box?? Based on what I can read on the MSD site it is a capacitor:
"It draws its energy directly from the battery where a custom wound transformer steps it up to over 460 volts. This voltage is then stored in a capacitor until the ignition is triggered. At this point, all of the voltage is dumped into the coil where it is transformed into even more voltage, anywhere from 30,000 - 45,000 volts depending on the coil, which is sent to the distributor and finally to the plugs."
Secondly, is there really sufficient improvement in spark/idle/performance/startup to justify the cost of an MSD system for street applications?
According to the blurb on their site:
"The payoff is complete combustion of the fuel mixture which results in more power, increased throttle response, a smooth idle, quick starts, improved economy and reduced plug fouling."
I'm surprised they don't claim that it makes you a hot breakfast when it's not busy healing the sick!!
At this point it's just idle curiosity more than anything else. I know that asking ignition related questions will result in a thousand opinions and occassionally bloodshed, but I look forward to hearing the opinions.
Cheers
Craig
whathaveidone ·
And they give you the option of multiple rev limiters for compertition use.
Imac ·
I don't understand why anyone would use anything but megajolt computer and an Ford EDIS (electronic distributorless ignition system) from a mondeo or similar,
Complete for less that $300. For EFI go megasquirt. No dizzy to stuff up, all components are cheap, reliable and available and it's fully programmable. I'm running a turbo 1776, tried several dizzy set-ups, all failed because they couldn't eliminate detonation while maintaining any sort of bottom end power. I had to run a programmable computer to tailor my ignition curve to exactly were I wanted it I've been running this for 18 month and bless it every time I start the engine it's just so smooth, absolutely no dizzy scatter. The mega jolt system is the best value for money ever.
When I built my 550 Spyder replica, the engine that I fitted was a 911 T, with Weber carbs. The engine ran really rough, and was down on power, even after a lot of tuning.
Mark Poole gave me a lot of help with the engine re-build, so I called him for some advice on the problem. Mark did not hesitate in suggesting that I fit an MSD........That fixed the problem immediately. Evidently those early engines don't like modern fuels.
bajachris88 ·
I saw a brilliant MSD tutorial on a TV show on Bris 31 called Gasoline.
It was the best dam car show i had seen, so technical and went into the nitty gritty compared to yea this a is a ferrari, yea this is the catalogue specs, lets pull some skids (TOP gear etc). No, it had actual bulk raw up front substance.
The MSD ignition compared to the normal coil/spark discharge was excellent, with the demonstator showing that usually after about 4000rpm, poor spark and the occasional misfire was to be expected in the stock system, while MSD maintained a constant bright bang throughout, till 10,000 rpm i think it was?? or maybe 12,000 rpm.
They had another MSD style ignition system they demonstated for alcohol filled drag cars, good for 20,000rpm or sumfin rediculous, and the dam crazy spark extended and looped out the side light bloody lightning! lol.
Dam i wish i had a copy of that segment though. Was straight no frills facts of 'here it is' and let me flick the switch and just watch and see for yourselves. No garbo
Heres an american demo, not as good as what i saw but gives basic idea:
1303Steve ·
Hi
I fitted a 6AL digital to my sons bug, it runs so much nicer. MSDs do have a reputation for being unreliable, keep the car wiring so that it can be returned to stock easily
Imac wrote:I don't understand why anyone would use anything but megajolt computer and an Ford EDIS (electronic distributorless ignition system) from a mondeo or similar,
Complete for less that $300. For EFI go megasquirt. No dizzy to stuff up, all components are cheap, reliable and available and it's fully programmable. I'm running a turbo 1776, tried several dizzy set-ups, all failed because they couldn't eliminate detonation while maintaining any sort of bottom end power. I had to run a programmable computer to tailor my ignition curve to exactly were I wanted it I've been running this for 18 month and bless it every time I start the engine it's just so smooth, absolutely no dizzy scatter. The mega jolt system is the best value for money ever.
I agree with you that in this day and age distributors are really only for the die hard original stock purists.
THe reason most don't go the megajolt though is most people want a simple plug and play solution.
A box they can open up, a few bits to bolt onto the engine, time it and forget all about it.
For nearly the same money you can get Compufire Dis-X coil pack kits which is all that.
All the mainstream car manufacturers dumped distributors for coil packs a good 2 decades ago, the aftermarket vw world is only just playing catch up now in an easy and affordable manner.
sander288 ·
I know MSD's are good but I have heard mixed reports on them working, I think the gringos boys might of had a few issues with 2 out of 3 being no good.
that fella from South Australia with the white hillclimb bug has a 009 hooked up to a CDI box I forget the brand but at the supersprint he said he had good results. I think he called his motor "china-black" becasue he used all the chinese VW parts and heat treated them all before use.
Cheers
Shaun
ian.mezz ·
we just run good old points in our drag car stan motor
good for 20000miles. 😂
no tacho
No rev limiter
just rev it until it wont rev any more 🤪
The CDI box the hillclimb bug used was a Crane Hi-6, about $300 or so.
vassy66T1 ·
I would highly recommend MSD set up.
I have one in my 2165cc Single Cab. (Distributor, 6AL, Blaster coil)
The improvement on idle is significant. The timing light is so steady at revs compared to a 009. (i.e. a single reading/line not a blurr like I have seen on a few 009's I have used)
The advance curve is easily adjustable via a combination of springs and toal advance limit bushing.
Changing the advance curve with the MSD distributior is a 5 minute job including resetting the total advance with timing light.
They are really very simple and very effective.
dangerous ·
I loved my 6AL, and if you get an MSD, it is well worth it just for the rev limiter.
It was 20 years old when i purchased it second hand...never a problem.
I recently upgraded to a Power Grid 7 and now a crank trigger.
It is fully programable and has twice the spark energy of the 6AL.
Like most ignition upgrades, the start and idle quality is usually improved.
If you like to run your engine rich or lean from ideal, they can usually improve the burn quality.
I think if I was to suggest an MSD unit for others,
the 6Al2 would be my choice.
All the nice features, easily adaptable to any dizzy trigger system and quite affordable.
dangerous ·
This is out of control:
😂
matberry ·
Yep, worth it if you can afford it. Best system available IMO. Fitted a 7 series digital recently and with the built in dial adjustable rev limit and two step limit, they are fantastic. The driveability below 3000rpm is definately improved, generally rejetting also required with carbs.
Craig Torrens ·
what ^ said !
Craig S ·
Thanks everyone.
I'm actually surprised by the overwhelming positive response. I need to do some more reading and learning before I take the leap.
Whilst putting in an engine I figure I might as well kill as many birds at once that I can afford.
Cheers
Craig
Craig S ·
Well did a teeny bit more looking about the Compu-fire and found these:
I think on that basis I'd be better sticking with the MSD for now, and then rethinking later if I go EFI, whereupon I can reuse the MSD on whatever I buy for my second toy.
vlad01 ·
if you go for EFi, get some GM coil packs. those things are 60Kv ! its cheap as chips and can be ripped of any VN and up V6 engine.
ian.mezz ·
Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
Craig S ·
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
So would a voltage regulator help, regardless of the system used?
matberry ·
If it's spikes your worried about, it's a filter you'd need. All electronics are subject to reliability issues. I've had more drama's with Compufire than MSD's.
In my ride I have an old Jaycar HEI KC5247 with dwell control + compufire points replacement module for triggering + Second hand Omex Clubman soft rev limiter.
vassy66T1 ·
BiX wrote:Any comments on the MSD vs Mallory debate?
No personal experience but haven't heard anyone give a good wrap on Mallory gear.
But some of this feedback is getting on in years now.
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
beetleboyjeff ·
I have had Compufires on the 009 in my 1916 for at least 200,000km - the only problem I had was when the first one stopped working when some stupid bald bastard (me) re-connected it up the wrong way around. :-(
ian.mezz ·
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
about 5 years , drag racing and all
matberry ·
Yeah, I've had many many miles out of a compufire. Also sell them still today. But occasionally they do fail. Sometimes it's not the electronics fault, we had a bad connection at the fuse box cause a unit to fail, the car still ran, but would stop too !!!! Not always at an appropriate time! That's the biggest issue with any electronics, they don't always let you know when they are about to cark it, and it can take literally hours, days or weeks to correctly diagnose some ignition issues.
Imac ·
OK comparing a drag cars ignition requirements to a street car is irrelevant. The drag car only needs accurate ignition at full revs and full load a magneto does the job.
A 009 (the most evil thing out there) being centrifical only has no way of adjusting for load. Put your foot down or climb a hill the dizzy has to catch up as revs increase. I have a stock 67 that will stay original I mean points and original dizzy and a pict30-1 and it will stay that way, if you change to an electronic module it's not original hence go the whole hog. Anything performance oriented ie high compression high revving you need to compensate for lack of lead and low fuel octane. If you want the best get your head out of the last century and get rid that dizzy. Also if I can fit EDIS so can any trained monkey, yes it's that simple and I can return back to stock quicker than it would take to remove your compufire and refit and set your points. Yes I have used compufire, yes, cleaner spark but no real benefit when it comes flexibility there is none. As far as changing weights and springs to change the characteristics of the dizzy how do you adjust +or- over a narrow rev or load range without affecting everywhere else?
PS EDIS has a 10 degree fail safe if there is a total computer failure so you will get home.👍
PSS I set my plug gap on the EDIS at 40thou/1mm and there's plenty of juice to jump at lest 60thou
matberry ·
Imac wrote:OK comparing a drag cars ignition requirements to a street car is irrelevant. The drag car only needs accurate ignition at full revs and full load a magneto does the job.
A 009 (the most evil thing out there) being centrifical only has no way of adjusting for load. Put your foot down or climb a hill the dizzy has to catch up as revs increase. I have a stock 67 that will stay original I mean points and original dizzy and a pict30-1 and it will stay that way, if you change to an electronic module it's not original hence go the whole hog. Anything performance oriented ie high compression high revving you need to compensate for lack of lead and low fuel octane. If you want the best get your head out of the last century and get rid that dizzy. Also if I can fit EDIS so can any trained monkey, yes it's that simple and I can return back to stock quicker than it would take to remove your compufire and refit and set your points. Yes I have used compufire, yes, cleaner spark but no real benefit when it comes flexibility there is none. As far as changing weights and springs to change the characteristics of the dizzy how do you adjust +or- over a narrow rev or load range without affecting everywhere else?
PS EDIS has a 10 degree fail safe if there is a total computer failure so you will get home.👍
PSS I set my plug gap on the EDIS at 40thou/1mm and there's plenty of juice to jump at lest 60thou
MSD is a multiple Spark Discharge system. That is so different than any module OR EDIS.
vlad01 ·
ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
about 5 years , drag racing and all
wow you don't drive much.
Imac ·
http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html
EDIS is multi spark discharge see paragraph 7 of technical section
As far as value for money, which is the threads topic, $300 complete, make two brackets, mount trigger wheel on pulley and about a meter of shielded wire, job done and you get all the features of many much dearer units. I don't now what it doesn't have that you may need. It can have hard or soft rev limiter. Can be configured for gear change light etc. Admittedly it only has a 10*10 table where as others have 16*16 or more but it is interpolated or smoothed buy the software so there is no appreciable difference. As far as mapping the stock map is as good as any dizzy curve and a good base to play from.
ian.mezz ·
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
about 5 years , drag racing and all
wow you don't drive much.
how much do you drive your VW ????
matberry ·
I stand corrected, didn't realise EDIS was multiple spark. Still when you see the actual output comparisons they are two different beasts. I'll admit that MSD isn't cheap.
1303Steve ·
Imac wrote:http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html
EDIS is multi spark discharge see paragraph 7 of technical section
As far as value for money, which is the threads topic, $300 complete, make two brackets, mount trigger wheel on pulley and about a meter of shielded wire, job done and you get all the features of many much dearer units. I don't now what it doesn't have that you may need. It can have hard or soft rev limiter. Can be configured for gear change light etc. Admittedly it only has a 10*10 table where as others have 16*16 or more but it is interpolated or smoothed buy the software so there is no appreciable difference. As far as mapping the stock map is as good as any dizzy curve and a good base to play from.
Hi
I'm interested, where can you buy these systems from?
read the forums on the samba and autosportlabs for more info
vlad01 ·
ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:
vlad01 wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:Like any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,
just make sure that your vw electrics or all good.
Rod penrose sells compufire.
we have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
so thats 6 months and still good?
about 5 years , drag racing and all
wow you don't drive much.
how much do you drive your VW ????
I reserve my VW for restoration, but I drive my daily a modest average 1000ks a week. Often 1500ks a week some months. I have serviced my car like 9 or 10 times this year alone.
76bug ·
ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rnLike any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,rnjust make sure that your vw electrics or all good.rnRod penrose sells compufire.rnwe have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
rnrnso thats 6 months and still good?
rnabout 5 years , drag racing and all
rnrnwow you don't drive much.
rnrnhow much do you drive your VW ????
rnrnI reserve my VW for restoration, but I drive my daily a modest average 1000ks a week. Often 1500ks a week some months. I have serviced my car like 9 or 10 times this year alone.
so vlad01 what is your point exactly, by stating you drive your holden 1000Ks a week?
Craig S ·
OK, we'll ignore Vlad's need for affirmation regarding driving distances and the apparent fact that only he is allowed to drive his VW short distances, and get back to the topic.
In the few moments I've had, I've been looking at the links Ian provided and have a few questions:
In this link of instructions it mentions two outputs, PIP and SAW. I take it that both of those are communicated to the Megajolt box, which can then be programmed. What versions of windows are supported by the tuning program?
In the kit available on ebay it has the toothed wheel, but you can't see whether it also has allowance for the pulley behind it? Would you therefore somehow need to attach this wheel to the pulley, or should it be all in one?
In fact it would seem that the wheel in the kit has a much smaller diameter than the stock pulley wheel. VW pulley seems to be about 172mm wheel vs 144mm OD and 104mm ID of the toothed one in the kit.
How then do you attach it? Do you have any tinware clearance issues?
Ian, if you have any photos of your setup are you able to share them?
One last one (for the moment). Once this is set up, how much more of a jump is it to EFI?
Thanks for the help and contructive input so far.
Craig
Imac ·
Looks like it's time to work out how to post photos, PM your email address and I'll email you some to you, I mount the toothed wheel spaced about 14mm of the face of the pulley to allow the VR senser to clear, I'll take some photos. If you're planning EFI in the foreseeable future I'd look into Megasquirt, Megajolts EFI big brother you can use it for just ignition until your ready for EFI
In my ride I have an old Jaycar HEI KC5247 with dwell control + compufire points replacement module for triggering + Second hand Omex Clubman soft rev limiter.
I had a DSE Hi power ignition kit a couple of years ago...
it DID make a difference to the power of the car..
it put about 32 volts into the coil.. [high resistance coil]
I was using points in the distributor which wore down and shorted out and burnt out the transistor..
I haven't repaired it as yet, and also have another kit to build.
The biggest improvement to My engine power [that I could feel] is the BOSCH SVDA distributor [from aircooled.net in the USA] with a pertronix kit inside..
although it went just as good with the points... in the SVDA.
its so smooth from idle to maximum revs... 7.5 BTDC at idle to 36 degrees BTDC at revs over 3000rpm
[with the vacuum working] 7.5 BTDC to 30 BTDC with the vacuum plugged up..
LEE
vlad01 ·
76bug wrote:
ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rn
vlad01 wrote:rn
ian.mezz wrote:rnLike any electrical component, if it gets a voltage spike they don't like it ,rnjust make sure that your vw electrics or all good.rnRod penrose sells compufire.rnwe have had one on roses car for over 25000Ks
rnrnso thats 6 months and still good?
rnabout 5 years , drag racing and all
rnrnwow you don't drive much.
rnrnhow much do you drive your VW ????
rnrnI reserve my VW for restoration, but I drive my daily a modest average 1000ks a week. Often 1500ks a week some months. I have serviced my car like 9 or 10 times this year alone.
so vlad01 what is your point exactly, by stating you drive your holden 1000Ks a week?
Just saying, that wish I didn't have to drive that much. I feel bad driving that much and can't avoid those annoyances on the road that end up trashing everything 🙁
You have done very well to get away with only that much driving.