Flipping useless ADR!!!!!

So I wonder if anyone can help answer this one for me whilst I await QLD transport to get back to me.

I was wanting to fabricate a vented brake disc conversion for my 1959 Beetle with 205PCD original steels.

Now even tho Volks Conversion and CSP with TUV approval, better than the ADR too, sell similar kits that require a mounting plate to bolt to the discs hub and then the 205 wheel bolts to the mounting plate yet my engineer says this may not be legal unless ADR has made a specific allowance for this?

Does anyone know if it's legal or not? It's not a wheel spacer or adapter to change from one PCD to another so technically it should be allowed. Strength would be better than the original drum so can't see why the dumb ADR wouldn't allow it.

Cheers

Sherman did it with his early kit and got it engineered, yet other engineers have argued the legality. He used specifically a rotor from a Mazda that was originally fastened to the wheel hub and by somehow convincing his engineer that if he used these same mounting bolts to fasten the wheel mounting plate, it wasn't actually a wheel adapter even though it looks like one 🙂.
I can't see why the fitting of a disc hat to an engineered hub would be any different, although the approval is still necessary. It appears to me to be more a case of how we/engineers describe the parts we use. Don't call it a wheel adapter but a mounting hub.......

haha gota love australia🙅😂

matberry wrote:Don't call it a wheel adapter but a mounting hub.......

I like that, thanks 👍

Kev

Like 3 inch lift kit vs. chassis stiffening 😂

psimitar wrote:So I wonder if anyone can help answer this one for me whilst I await QLD transport to get back to me.

I was wanting to fabricate a vented brake disc conversion for my 1959 Beetle with 205PCD original steels.

Now even tho Volks Conversion and CSP with TUV approval, better than the ADR too, sell similar kits that require a mounting plate to bolt to the discs hub and then the 205 wheel bolts to the mounting plate yet my engineer says this may not be legal unless ADR has made a specific allowance for this?

Does anyone know if it's legal or not? It's not a wheel spacer or adapter to change from one PCD to another so technically it should be allowed. Strength would be better than the original drum so can't see why the dumb ADR wouldn't allow it.

Cheers

it should be easy enough to figure out...??

regardless of ADRs...
which is what they are always looking at these days..

many new cars have a plastic spacer behind the Mag wheels so they will seat properly...

some common sense is needed...
[not so common these days??]

If a pothole in a road can now wreck a low profile tyre and alloy wheel....???

I seem to remember that New Porsches cam with wheel spacers from the factory many years ago... 914 ??

LEE

In my early days i had the misfortune to have dealings with person mentioned above in the form of the fore said discs brake kit using the mazda hubs that had the adaptor plate/mounting hub, these came complete with two siezed calipers, one broken bleeder along with the manditory taurbmans recondition, the adaptors were fastened to the hub using 8MM bolts, any engineer that would pass rubbish like that should be shot, it made the track on the front with standard wheels about 75MM over track, as a machinist i now completely engineer and fabricate my own, as for using the above set up, it can only be called a adaptor plate because that is what it is, i machined mine out of on piece of T6 billet stock. they have these rules in place to make sure that any mods are done to a high engineering standards, its all about catering for the lowerest common denominator in a attempt to stop dangerous vehicles being driven on the roads, the only thing you could do is keep approaching different engineers until you find one that will accept the risk of using that set up. i had to learn the hard way and did not purchase one set but two, one for my mate as well, both ended up being junk, i have learnt a lot since then. also a lot of porsche 911's run spacers as standard, all complied when the vehicle was imported and approved as a manufacturers part and by the way i am still waiting for replacement calipers for those kits.

Hi

Would ADRs affect a car that old?

I've also heard similar stories about that guy from the Gold Coasts brake conversions.

Steve

Look through VSB14 (Vehicle Service Bulletin). Search for it and have a read.

It is close to being recognised as a National code for modifications.

As far as I know, a wheel spacer is ok if it is permanently fixed to the hub, and does not allow the track to increase more than 25mm overall, or allows the wheel studs to take any load or stresses that they were not designed for.

Volks Conversion Kits are not ADR approved and have no design approval either. John likes to say they are QLD Transport Approved but what he means is that people in QLD Transport have let cars with them through rego.

As him straight up and he will be able to supply no paperwork at all.

There is no issue at all running an adapter as part of the disc brake kit to return the selected disc conversion to the factory PCD. I suggest you read the rules and the ADR's. I think you are confussing the inability to run a wheel adapter as opposed to running an engineer designed and approved disc kit which includes an adapter as part of it.

It has little to do with QLD Transport as they will refer you to an approved person and if they hold the relevant design code they can approve the design, once installed they can then approve the install. I went though all this is person when we got the Custom Offroad Disc Conversion Kits designed approved. We supplied 5/205 PCD adapters with the kit for those who needed it and this was covered in the design approval.

I never liked the look of VolksConversions kit but wondered how it got away with being legal.
I've read the NCOP and been advised by Qld Trans that adapters cannot be used yet original PCD wheels must be used and that the Porsche stuff passes as it's from a large international company and if used on any vehcile not originally designed for then it is illegal.
Hoping my engineer will see that it is perfectly safe and like people have said it's a mounting plate not an adapter plate that is permenantly bolted to the hub with deep wheel bolt sized Hi-ten bolts.

Can anyone point me in the direction of the conversions they have said they designed and passed scrutiny?

Cheers,
Mike

Thanks Brad. Good info.

The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.

If the JS brakes are approved it does not say much for the people that do the engineering approvals, the engineer that i use has no issues in using a different PCD as long as it is up to the correct engineering standard,
You can come and have a look at the brakes on my car as i have already engineered, fabricated and are approved for the street.

vwo60 wrote:If the JS brakes are approved it does not say much for the people that do the engineering approvals, the engineer that i use has no issues in using a different PCD as long as it is up to the correct engineering standard,
You can come and have a look at the brakes on my car as i have already engineered, fabricated and are approved for the street.

So you have the wide 5 205mm PCD wheels and front disc brake conversion? Just wish to clarify so on the same page.

You've used maybe 6061 T6 alloy and machined the hub and wheel mounting plate as one unit?

Do you have any pictures of your setup? I'm in Europe at present and doing my homework before I return to Oz and get things started.

Also, how is the alloys grain running inside lengths of bar we can buy? is it radial or along it's length? Just wondering from a strength point of view to side loadings.

Cheers,
Mike

matberry wrote:Thanks Brad. Good info.

The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.

What a salesman wished to tell you is his own business, ask him to provide some supporting paperwork ...... there will be none. I asked him for it for many many years and he even admitted he never had any.

All the engineers I have worked with will not touch JS Disc kits as the design is not even close to legal, do some calcs and you will soon see that it provided less braking force than the stock drums due to his rotor sizes and pad surface area. Then have a look how it takes what say 5 x 12mm bolts and replaces them with 4 x 8mm .... or even 10mm on some kits . They are way under spec.

I am pretty sure that vwo60 may have had his brakes approved by the same engineer who did my design approval, if his car is that in his avatar it is one very sweet ride and I would have to say his brakes are the nicest I have seen on a dub. I could be wrong and have him mixed up but the car look familiar.

As for QLD Transport advice .... I guess that explains why they aren't allowed to approve most kits and they have the approved officers scheme allowing people with an actual clue to design approve disc kits.

I have sold, installed and had approved many wide 5 disc brake kits, it isn't an issue and they all use what you are reffering to as adapters and are fully legal. It all comes down to what you design and justify, heck you could call a rim an adapter if you like as it adapts the tyre to the disc ....

Brad wrote:

matberry wrote:Thanks Brad. Good info.

The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.

What a salesman wished to tell you is his own business, ask him to provide some supporting paperwork ...... there will be none. I asked him for it for many many years and he even admitted he never had any.

All the engineers I have worked with will not touch JS Disc kits as the design is not even close to legal, do some calcs and you will soon see that it provided less braking force than the stock drums due to his rotor sizes and pad surface area. Then have a look how it takes what say 5 x 12mm bolts and replaces them with 4 x 8mm .... or even 10mm on some kits . They are way under spec.

I am pretty sure that vwo60 may have had his brakes approved by the same engineer who did my design approval, if his car is that in his avatar it is one very sweet ride and I would have to say his brakes are the nicest I have seen on a dub. I could be wrong and have him mixed up but the car look familiar.

As for QLD Transport advice .... I guess that explains why they aren't allowed to approve most kits and they have the approved officers scheme allowing people with an actual clue to design approve disc kits.

I have sold, installed and had approved many wide 5 disc brake kits, it isn't an issue and they all use what you are reffering to as adapters and are fully legal. It all comes down to what you design and justify, heck you could call a rim an adapter if you like as it adapts the tyre to the disc ....

Your engineer approved mine.❓

Gee Brad you don't seem to remember the trailing arms I got of you with the Ford EA disc brakes! How the discs rubbed on the caliper brackets(clearance should have been 3mm as on the EA Ford). Did your engineer pass these too? Must thank you for zero support I got from you/CVD 👎

Sadly I know this post won't be here tomorrow. Perhaps we could continue with factual information to help educate members minus the real names of the people that manufacture or sell such kits. Forget about grinding axes, just share your experience as to what works and what doesn't!

Dave

Well I couldn't let "The Buggy Guru" bag someone else when he is far from a shining example.

As for bagging any body, its very fair to let other people know if you have had any issues with kits that are being sold today, i am still owed money or replacement parts from my brush with J* 30 years ago, every show i see him at i stand in front of his stall and tell every body to avoid his rubbish, as far as i can see i am just sharing my experence letting people know what works and what does not, thanks for the compliment Brad that is my car that you recognise. the brakes that i have on my car are 4 x 130, if you had enough time you could make the 5 x 205 hubs out of billet, you would have a lot of swarf left over, you would need to check with alcoa about how the material is made, i did not think it would make to much difference as the hubs are way over engineered for such a light car

vwo60 wrote:As for bagging any body, its very fair to let other people know if you have had any issues with kits that are being sold today, i am still owed money or replacement parts from my brush with J* 30 years ago, every show i see him at i stand in front of his stall and tell every body to avoid his rubbish, as far as i can see i am just sharing my experence letting people know what works and what does not, thanks for the compliment Brad that is my car that you recognise. the brakes that i have on my car are 4 x 130, if you had enough time you could make the 5 x 205 hubs out of billet, you would have a lot of swarf left over, you would need to check with alcoa about how the material is made, i did not think it would make to much difference as the hubs are way over engineered for such a light car

If someone sells crap then others should know so they can make their own minds up on the merits of the product. Hell, most main Aussie banks sell shit but we have to put up with that.
I'm more inclined for a steel plate to bolt to the alloy hub for strength as, and I will check, I'm not sure the billet alloy would have as much strength due to the grain.

If I could get em hot drop forged I'd be laughing 🙂

Still gotta find a Tafe that'll let me use there gear for R&D or fork out for a second hand lathe

I am quite certain that a hub made from the same material that i used would be more than suitable for the task, just have it engineered after all its a light car it would be used on.

vwo60 wrote:I am quite certain that a hub made from the same material that i used would be more than suitable for the task, just have it engineered after all its a light car it would be used on.

Cool. Did you use 6061 T6 alloy or some other grade of alloy? Cheers

vwo60 wrote:I am quite certain that a hub made from the same material that i used would be more than suitable for the task, just have it engineered after all its a light car it would be used on.

Cool. Did you use 6061 T6 alloy or some other grade of alloy? Cheers

MickH wrote:

Brad wrote:

matberry wrote:Thanks Brad. Good info.

The JS bit of your post tho....ask him and he'll tell you they are approved by Qld T'sport.....don't know re paperwork tho.

What a salesman wished to tell you is his own business, ask him to provide some supporting paperwork ...... there will be none. I asked him for it for many many years and he even admitted he never had any.

All the engineers I have worked with will not touch JS Disc kits as the design is not even close to legal, do some calcs and you will soon see that it provided less braking force than the stock drums due to his rotor sizes and pad surface area. Then have a look how it takes what say 5 x 12mm bolts and replaces them with 4 x 8mm .... or even 10mm on some kits . They are way under spec.

I am pretty sure that vwo60 may have had his brakes approved by the same engineer who did my design approval, if his car is that in his avatar it is one very sweet ride and I would have to say his brakes are the nicest I have seen on a dub. I could be wrong and have him mixed up but the car look familiar.

As for QLD Transport advice .... I guess that explains why they aren't allowed to approve most kits and they have the approved officers scheme allowing people with an actual clue to design approve disc kits.

I have sold, installed and had approved many wide 5 disc brake kits, it isn't an issue and they all use what you are reffering to as adapters and are fully legal. It all comes down to what you design and justify, heck you could call a rim an adapter if you like as it adapts the tyre to the disc ....

Your engineer approved mine.❓

Yes they were approved after they were modified and a brake test was conducted.

mackaymanx wrote:Gee Brad you don't seem to remember the trailing arms I got of you with the Ford EA disc brakes! How the discs rubbed on the caliper brackets(clearance should have been 3mm as on the EA Ford). Did your engineer pass these too? Must thank you for zero support I got from you/CVD 👎

Were they the ones with the 2nd hand parts you supplied ? As for passing them, answer would be NO as from memory we never even saw the car they were going on, bit hard to get an install approval when we didn't fit them. As for them not fitting .. are you saying when you fitted your second hand parts you supplied to the car you were not smart enough to get them setup correctly ? Maybe you should have sent the car down so we could have set them up for you so they would work as designed.

mackaymanx wrote:Well I couldn't let "The Buggy Guru" bag someone else when he is far from a shining example.

heheh, So Brent, how is living on my tax dollars treating you ? Still got time to hang out in here and offer helpful info I see.

So have you taken anybody elses parts lately and tried to pass them off as something you were capable of making ?

I see you still have my quote for a footer and a status to match. I am so pleased I made such a lasting impression on you, just glad you had your name in the status so I could remember WTF it was.

Not sure how this thread became all about me, but mehh if that is what floats your boat. As for helping the original poster maybe you can offer some factual input ? I am sure google can help you out and give you an opinion and some experience 😂

Brad wrote:

mackaymanx wrote:Gee Brad you don't seem to remember the trailing arms I got of you with the Ford EA disc brakes! How the discs rubbed on the caliper brackets(clearance should have been 3mm as on the EA Ford). Did your engineer pass these too? Must thank you for zero support I got from you/CVD 👎

Were they the ones with the 2nd hand parts you supplied ? As for passing them, answer would be NO as from memory we never even saw the car they were going on, bit hard to get an install approval when we didn't fit them. As for them not fitting .. are you saying when you fitted your second hand parts you supplied to the car you were not smart enough to get them setup correctly ? Maybe you should have sent the car down so we could have set them up for you so they would work as designed.

Yet again you are trying to muddy the situation. CVD modified the caliper brackets which they supplied because they lost/used/misplaced the first set I gave you(so they used secondhand parts which they supplied).
CVD modified the bearing spacers and set up the bearings on the arms(the secondhand bearing spacers which you asked me to supply). I have heard through the grapevine that the design has been change on the bearing housing on your arms, maybe you are the one who was not smart enough to get to get it right the first time around.

Brad wrote:

mackaymanx wrote:Well I couldn't let "The Buggy Guru" bag someone else when he is far from a shining example.

heheh, So Brent, how is living on my tax dollars treating you ? Still got time to hang out in here and offer helpful info I see.

So have you taken anybody elses parts lately and tried to pass them off as something you were capable of making ?

I see you still have my quote for a footer and a status to match. I am so pleased I made such a lasting impression on you, just glad you had your name in the status so I could remember WTF it was.

Not sure how this thread became all about me, but mehh if that is what floats your boat. As for helping the original poster maybe you can offer some factual input ? I am sure google can help you out and give you an opinion and some experience 😂

Brad you seem fascinate that I'm "living on my(your) tax dollars" as this is the second time you have brought it up in seperate threads. Yes I'm on a disability support pension. So what! I've had chronic arthritis condition for the last 25 years of my life and I didn't stop working until I had to! You infer that I'm some kind of dole bludger, or are you just a bigot against people with a disability???


"So have you taken anybody elses parts lately and tried to pass them off as something you were capable of making ?"
I don't know what you are trying to get at here Brad, more inuendo.

as for wide 5 disc brake hubs have a look at hunter rivmaster,s offroad kit it might be able to be engineerd have a chat with him good dude!

Come now guys. I àm just after some info for my disc conversion.

As to who did what well unless I make it myself or buy a kit from CSP then I wouldnt trust anything else.

As for Volks Conversion, the fact the wheel studs are 5xM12 or 4xM14 should have given the twat an idea of what bolts to use to hold the plate onto the hub!!!! DUR!!!!!!!!

Not had any contact with CVD but if thats the stafford lot they seem nice enough when i met em a few years back but never bout nowt from them cos I make it all meself 🙂

Cool. Did you use 6061 T6 alloy or some other grade of alloy? Cheers [/quote]

I had a look at the material that was requested by the engineer, it is as above, 6061 T6, i purchased two pieces from Capral aluminium, had it cut to length as i had no way of parting it of as it was 200MM in diameter, it is interesting that he specified that the M14MM holes for the wheel bolts be tapped directly into the aluminium, every time that i remove the wheels i always torque these bolts and have never had a issue with them.

psimitar wrote:Come now guys. I àm just after some info for my disc conversion.

As to who did what well unless I make it myself or buy a kit from CSP then I wouldnt trust anything else.

Not had any contact with CVD but if thats the stafford lot they seem nice enough when i met em a few years back but never bout nowt from them cos I make it all meself 🙂

Correct and just so no one gets the wrong idea I left Custom Vee Dub many years ago. The new owner Pete does his own thing as I would hate anyone to hold anything I did or was supposed to have done according to some guy who I obviously don't get on with for one reason or another.

As for a response to Brent ... well I see no point going on as it is only going to send the thread further off path. Those involved at the time know what really happened and who did what so at least the truth is out there, maybe Brent can post some info on the brake kits with "adapter" he has actually had designed and approved ?

mactaylor wrote:as for wide 5 disc brake hubs have a look at hunter rivmaster,s offroad kit it might be able to be engineerd have a chat with him good dude!

Hi

Not wishing to sound like VW54 aka Birchall, Vintage have an engineered wide 5 kit already and it apparently works very well.

Steve

Do you have there phone number??

02 9789 1777 I think

hunter rivmasta has alloy hubs that are very light and strong would be great for road racing with a few tweeks bobs number is 02 96272151. i have no interest to declare in his business.

vwo60 wrote:Cool. Did you use 6061 T6 alloy or some other grade of alloy? Cheers

I had a look at the material that was requested by the engineer, it is as above, 6061 T6, i purchased two pieces from Capral aluminium, had it cut to length as i had no way of parting it of as it was 200MM in diameter, it is interesting that he specified that the M14MM holes for the wheel bolts be tapped directly into the aluminium, every time that i remove the wheels i always torque these bolts and have never had a issue with them. [/quote]

So what PCD wheels are you using? Bigger than 4x130 or 5x112. And what diameter rotor did you use? Just interested as you must have some overhang for the wheel mounting point that overhangs the caliper?

Cheers,
Mike

1303Steve wrote:

mactaylor wrote:as for wide 5 disc brake hubs have a look at hunter rivmaster,s offroad kit it might be able to be engineerd have a chat with him good dude!

Hi

Not wishing to sound like VW54 aka Birchall, Vintage have an engineered wide 5 kit already and it apparently works very well.

Steve

Thanks. Already knew that but they are solid discs and I want vented.
I know people say the Bug is light but with the EJ22 in the back and some fun driving I'd prefer vented for better cooling right from the start instead of finding out that the solids don't like 'fun' driving and then that means re-engineering the whole setup so get what I'd like from the start 🙂

Hi,
You are correct about the ventilated rotors as i see no point in doing a conversion without taking advantage of that style of rotor, I used the standard 4 x 130 as i already had a set of composite wheels, i am looking at building another set up for the double wish bone front end that i will be running in my new build, the rotors are 295MM in diametre and 20MM thick, go to the DBA web site and down load the catalog and troll through the thousands on offer, all the diamentions are listed in the catalog.
http://www.dba.com.au/

psimitar wrote:

1303Steve wrote:

mactaylor wrote:as for wide 5 disc brake hubs have a look at hunter rivmaster,s offroad kit it might be able to be engineerd have a chat with him good dude!

Hi

Not wishing to sound like VW54 aka Birchall, Vintage have an engineered wide 5 kit already and it apparently works very well.

Steve

Thanks. Already knew that but they are solid discs and I want vented.
I know people say the Bug is light but with the EJ22 in the back and some fun driving I'd prefer vented for better cooling right from the start instead of finding out that the solids don't like 'fun' driving and then that means re-engineering the whole setup so get what I'd like from the start 🙂

Hi

Maybe you could buy a pair of just the wide 5 rotors, then remove braking surface and use these as a hub, 911s do this sort of thing, the 911 rotor bolts to the rear of the 911 hub.

I did this on my old 1302 but I used cut down Beetle rotors.

Steve

Brad wrote:There is no issue at all running an adapter as part of the disc brake kit to return the selected disc conversion to the factory PCD. I suggest you read the rules and the ADR's. I think you are confussing the inability to run a wheel adapter as opposed to running an engineer designed and approved disc kit which includes an adapter as part of it.

Hey Brad. I have read the braking section of this document
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/b3ea8c53-b6a1-489e-933d-dac4054f21ba/codeofpracticelightvehiclesreductions.pdf
Pages 75 to 92

It doesn't make any mention of adapter plate and whether they can be approved as a part of the brake conversion.

I was wondering if you could please link, PM or email (smiley3000@gmail.com) the documents that you have used to get your adapter plates approved as I am interested in going down this path and looking into disc brake conversions at the moment.

You help would be most appreciated, and I'm sure other people on here would like the information too.

Thanks



Smiley 🙂

vwo60 wrote:Hi,
You are correct about the ventilated rotors as i see no point in doing a conversion without taking advantage of that style of rotor, I used the standard 4 x 130 as i already had a set of composite wheels, i am looking at building another set up for the double wish bone front end that i will be running in my new build, the rotors are 295MM in diametre and 20MM thick, go to the DBA web site and down load the catalog and troll through the thousands on offer, all the diamentions are listed in the catalog.
http://www.dba.com.au/

Cool. I have looked thro the DBA catalogue already but have found some wilwood hatless rotors to go on the back of the hub. The main thing is figuring out the mounting of teh original wheels as QLD trams are adamant that the PCD MUST NOT change from original. So either a hub with integral overhang for clearing the caliper and mounting the wheel or a mounting plate to bolt to the hub that the wheel bolts too.

1303Steve wrote:Hi

Maybe you could buy a pair of just the wide 5 rotors, then remove braking surface and use these as a hub, 911s do this sort of thing, the 911 rotor bolts to the rear of the 911 hub.

I did this on my old 1302 but I used cut down Beetle rotors.

Steve

Hiya Steve,

Um, wide 5 never came with rotors just drums. Or did you mean the alloy hubs?

I like what you did for the 1302 but what with the drums webbing you cant machine that off to give a flat surface for the rotor to bolt too. If I could thatd be so much easier.

The issue with the wide 5 PCD is needing the wheel mounting point to overhang the disc and caliper area and hence you need clearance for the caliper body. between the rotor and wheel mounting point.

Check out CSP vented kit and youll see what I mean.

Cheers,
mike

psimitar wrote:

1303Steve wrote:Hi

Maybe you could buy a pair of just the wide 5 rotors, then remove braking surface and use these as a hub, 911s do this sort of thing, the 911 rotor bolts to the rear of the 911 hub.

I did this on my old 1302 but I used cut down Beetle rotors.

Steve

Hiya Steve,

Um, wide 5 never came with rotors just drums. Or did you mean the alloy hubs?

I like what you did for the 1302 but what with the drums webbing you cant machine that off to give a flat surface for the rotor to bolt too. If I could thatd be so much easier.

The issue with the wide 5 PCD is needing the wheel mounting point to overhang the disc and caliper area and hence you need clearance for the caliper body. between the rotor and wheel mounting point.

Check out CSP vented kit and youll see what I mean.

Cheers,
mike

I think he means buy just a pair of rotors from the likes of Vintage and modify them to take the vent disc.

Are you going to be running adapter plates? Because I'm looking to do a very similar thing to my Baja at the moment. I'm planning on using all factory Commodore parts. I just need to have the caliper brackets made. And I'm still tossing up whether to use Commodore stud pattern or fit adapter plates to the rotors and run wide 5.

Going to see an engineer or two tomorrow so we'll go from there I suppose.


Smiley 🙂

Smiley wrote:

psimitar wrote:

1303Steve wrote:Hi

Maybe you could buy a pair of just the wide 5 rotors, then remove braking surface and use these as a hub, 911s do this sort of thing, the 911 rotor bolts to the rear of the 911 hub.

I did this on my old 1302 but I used cut down Beetle rotors.

Steve

Hiya Steve,

Um, wide 5 never came with rotors just drums. Or did you mean the alloy hubs?

I like what you did for the 1302 but what with the drums webbing you cant machine that off to give a flat surface for the rotor to bolt too. If I could thatd be so much easier.

The issue with the wide 5 PCD is needing the wheel mounting point to overhang the disc and caliper area and hence you need clearance for the caliper body. between the rotor and wheel mounting point.

Check out CSP vented kit and youll see what I mean.

Cheers,
mike

I think he means buy just a pair of rotors from the likes of Vintage and modify them to take the vent disc.

Are you going to be running adapter plates? Because I'm looking to do a very similar thing to my Baja at the moment. I'm planning on using all factory Commodore parts. I just need to have the caliper brackets made. And I'm still tossing up whether to use Commodore stud pattern or fit adapter plates to the rotors and run wide 5.

Going to see an engineer or two tomorrow so we'll go from there I suppose.


Smiley 🙂

Well the Vintage should, like most others, be using an alloy hub with a sintered steel rotor bolted to the back BUT depending on the diameter of the rear of the hub will determine what rotor could be used and so far all the Oz suppliers arent being very forth coming with hub dimensions so I can figure out if they would be of any use.

As for which stud pattern. Well QLD trans are adamant that a vehicle MUST retain its original PCD and so legally unless an engineer can sign off on such things for a different PCD to be used then technically if you have an accident you are uninsured due to having an illegal modification. Check that out in depth with your engineer.

I wanna use a mounting plate for the wide 5 wheels but its getting an engineer to be happy with the overhang this mounting plate introduces to the structure of the design plus the mods MUST NOT increase the track by more than 25mm. Unless you narrow the beam a little to help 🙂

Cheers,
Mike

I spoke with the engineer on Friday.

He was adamant that adapter plates are illegal and can not be approved.

He also said that there is no worries with changing the stud pattern. So I'm probably just going to change to the Commodore stud pattern.

I'm also going to speak with another engineer next week and get a second opinion. Mostly just double check.

Not sure if this really helps you. I don't know who told you that the stud pattern must remain factory, but no one else seems to have any dramas with it. And the engineer said it was perfectly fine.


Smiley 🙂

The change of stud pattern does not matter as the conversion will have to be engineered and approved, there are a few conversions that run a wide five aluminium hub but do not have a vented rotor, I think the apaptor plate stops being a adaptor plate when it is attached to the hub perminatly, the overhang over the wheel mounting face is totally different to my set up as it is taken into account on the wheels.

QLD trans were adamant about change of PCD. No reason why an engineered mounting plate shouldn't be legal. If you look at the drum casting which is a cheap and weak form of parts manufacture then an alloy hub with suitably thick steel plate to bolt the wheel too with minimal overhang is actually stronger than the cast drum. Suppose it depends if the engineer in question actually has a degree in materials engineering.

Richard Larsen at load safe engineering did mine, he is a automotive engineer and can give you a definitive answer

vwo60 wrote:Richard Larsen at load safe engineering did mine, he is a automotive engineer and can give you a definitive answer

Ah ha, now thats what I needed to know.

My apologies if I've sounded a bit agro but find it frustrating at times with the ADR and how Oz handle certain things especially when the German TUV standards are the toughest in the world yet a TUV approved kit from a German company does not satisfy the ADR. That to me sounds like the USA and only wanting to do things their way.

Fingers crossed this guy can see that my design is so strong that the spindle would snap b4 the mounting plate deformed.😎

His requirement was a 12MM mounting plate for the caliper, all grade 10.9 bolts and the correct front rear bias, i am currently building a new car and it will use ball joint spindles, i see most people mount the caliper to the standard spindle using the 10mm bolts that mount the standard caliper, with a adaptor then sleeve the porsche hub to use beetle bearings, i will have to machine the caliper mount on the spindle to allow for 12 MM bolts and sleeve the spindle to use the porsche bearings.

I can reassure you that CVD is now under new management and in the awesome hands of Pete and Co. Can't recommended Pete's work enough to anyone. 👍

vwo60 wrote:His requirement was a 12MM mounting plate for the caliper, all grade 10.9 bolts and the correct front rear bias, i am currently building a new car and it will use ball joint spindles, i see most people mount the caliper to the standard spindle using the 10mm bolts that mount the standard caliper, with a adaptor then sleeve the porsche hub to use beetle bearings, i will have to machine the caliper mount on the spindle to allow for 12 MM bolts and sleeve the spindle to use the porsche bearings.

Cool. Will see if he can clarify my design by email as still in Europe for a few months and would like to know I can buy parts b4 my return to Oz. Can buy and ship some bits cheaper whilst I'm here 🙂

Bracket size at 12mm is def way to go. Sleeving the spindle will be fun what with the internal taper.

12mm mounting plate for the wide 5 wheels on mine should be fine too but we'll see.

Just put the spindle up between centres and clock the angle, i will give that section of the sleeve .2MM clearance

Wow, . . . . . . . was just doing research on brakes and came across this thread, i remember now why i don't hang out on aussie vw forums,

vwo60 wrote:Just put the spindle up between centres and clock the angle, i will give that section of the sleeve .2MM clearance

Tis interesting that sleeving the spindle is allowed as any other mod isn't and thought that meant sleeving too but hey if he said it's OK.

Funny as that wouldn't pass in UK or Germany. You could however get a company to machine the old spindle out and then heat shrink a correctly manufactured and case hardened spindle in.

Also odd that he wants M12 bolts in the original caliper hole locations as the NCP says thats not allowed unless I mis-understood it. I presume he looked at the meat around the orig mounting holes to say that enough strength remains?

It all seems a bit odd to me after reading the NCP and hearing that an engineer can sign off on things that read as not complying along with overriding QLD transport on things like PCD rulings. Bit of a dodgy system when depending on the engineer one can say yes and another no but as he accredited then with the blue plate it's legal.

Ah well, I do hope he likes what I have in mind and good luck with the new brake design. Hope you make a thread for it as I'd be interested in seeing you put your new kit togther. 🙂

why not Glenn's (aka VWCOOL) ADR approved disk brake kits? they bolt right on with no mods and the hand brake works as standard.

nils wrote:Wow, . . . . . . . was just doing research on brakes and came across this thread, i remember now why i don't hang out on aussie vw forums,

lol yeah, so true.😂

vlad01 wrote:why not Glenn's (aka VWCOOL) ADR approved disk brake kits? they bolt right on with no mods and the hand brake works as standard.

They are nice but I don't want anything to do with Commodores or GM in any way. I hate Commodores and Falcons. Awfully crap cars. Plus his kit is 4 bolt and I like the look of the wide 5 solids. Much better looking than the slotted 4 lug wheels and are original to my 59 bug. Later wheels look awful. 😉

My calipers mount with 12mm bolts standard, i cannot work out how they allow adaptors to mount porsche calipers using the two 10mm bolts that attach the standard caiper to the ball joint spindle, you are generating far more load with the bigger calipers, he is a automotive engineer and accepts the responsibility for the mods anyway, he has demand a very high standard fort all the mods that i have carried out with him.

vwo60 wrote:My calipers mount with 12mm bolts standard, i cannot work out how they allow adaptors to mount porsche calipers using the two 10mm bolts that attach the standard caiper to the ball joint spindle, you are generating far more load with the bigger calipers, he is a automotive engineer and accepts the responsibility for the mods anyway, he has demand a very high standard fort all the mods that i have carried out with him.

I can see the reasoning behind it and agree so long as the spindle material for the bolts can handle being tapped out but what I find amusing is the NCP say the spindles can't be modified. Been a while since I read it but just amusing if I remember it correctly and the engineer can override that which is written.

Like I said tho I'd love to see a build thread as I will for mine once got the go ahead on the design 😉

Be aware that the engineers primarily design of bolt fastened components is to induce friction between the two contacting surfaces (eg: caliper and stub axle or adapter etc), thus have the friction to take up the load as opposed to relying on the bolts to take the shear strain of the load across the bolts cross-section. If 10mm bolts can hold enough axial tension to induce friction between the two contacting surfaces then your set. The automotive engineer should have taken all this into account.

bajachris88 wrote:Be aware that the engineers primarily design of bolt fastened components is to induce friction between the two contacting surfaces (eg: caliper and stub axle or adapter etc), thus have the friction to take up the load as opposed to relying on the bolts to take the shear strain of the load across the bolts cross-section. If 10mm bolts can hold enough axial tension to induce friction between the two contacting surfaces then your set. The automotive engineer should have taken all this into account.

Quite so Chris. Not much surface area on those caliper spindles. Personally I'd use drum spindles for better location and the bracket kicks forward just like the caliper one would so better in my opinion 😉

nils wrote:Wow, . . . . . . . was just doing research on brakes and came across this thread, i remember now why i don't hang out on aussie vw forums,

😂 This ones a classic!

I must say it impresses me how many people on here are prepared to put in the effort to abide by ADRs.

I won't mention names but members on other forums I'm on would be perfectly satisfied holding calipers on with a couple of old coach bolts, some fencing wire and a bit of silastic to stop the rattles.

Joel wrote:I must say it impresses me how many people on here are prepared to put in the effort to abide by ADRs.

I won't mention names but members on other forums I'm on would be perfectly satisfied holding calipers on with a couple of old coach bolts, some fencing wire and a bit of silastic to stop the rattles.

Sounds about right mate. Gotta love all those illegal vehicles out there that fortunately you can rely on the CTP in rego to pay for your rehabilitation as even if they have insurance it's invalid due to a non-comforming modification. Those people should be shot 🙂

psimitar wrote:

Joel wrote:I must say it impresses me how many people on here are prepared to put in the effort to abide by ADRs.

I won't mention names but members on other forums I'm on would be perfectly satisfied holding calipers on with a couple of old coach bolts, some fencing wire and a bit of silastic to stop the rattles.

Sounds about right mate. Gotta love all those illegal vehicles out there that fortunately you can rely on the CTP in rego to pay for your rehabilitation as even if they have insurance it's invalid due to a non-comforming modification. Those people should be shot 🙂

Is that you there Jeremy Clarkson? 🤪

^^^ Nah !!!! Jeremy lines them in front of thier family to be shot ...... 😂😂😂

I do like Clarkson. Least he says what a lot of people are thinking.

Oh and Richard Larson couldn't even be bothered to answer my emails. I don't have the time during the day to fone and in this day and age I feel unimpressed if someone can't respond to there emails no matter how busy they are.

Anyway, lets hope my original engineer can help when I return in March.